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  #51  
Unread 03-19-2012, 08:46 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

MSO,

So a planet is debilitated because it doesn’t aspect the ascendant? I see now that a lot of the rationale here is based upon a fallacy that strength and power can be assessed by the way something appears. The ascendant (not necessarily the first house) represents, or theoretically should represent, the most exterior aspects of the individual: appearance, demeanor, and so on. These factors may or may not bear any resemblance to the true essence or potential of the individual. Planets that aspect the ascendant are pushed forward so that they appear to others, but this is by no means equivalent to making them more powerful. One can certainly posses power that is not evident by his appearance.

As for aspects, do you believe that oppositions and squares to the ascendant are better than no aspects to the ascendant at all? And do you believe that a conjunction with a “malefic” or a conjunction with a planet in its detriment or fall is more beneficial than having no aspects to the ascendant at all? In my humble opinion, Mercury is the only planet that does any good to be conjunct the ascendant. I’m sure many will disagree. So be it.

Depending on your preferences regarding orbs, a planet in the twelfth can aspect the ascendant. It can also aspect the lord of the ascendant or be in reception to it. Why is everyone clinging so tightly to the idea that the twelfth house is so unfortunate? It is only so because you make it so.

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  #52  
Unread 03-19-2012, 08:57 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Oh, I couldn't help myself, but in regards to the 9th house being spirituality thing: Jupiter rules both the 9th and the 12th. Interestingly enough, if you believe that houses correspond to the signs, Pisces is symbolized by Fish, a very ancient symbol of spirituality and religion (not just Christianity).
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  #53  
Unread 03-20-2012, 12:29 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaptInReverie View Post
Why is everyone clinging so tightly to the idea that the twelfth house is so unfortunate? It is only so because you make it so.
The real question is, why are you clinging to the idea that the 12th House isn't so unfortunate? It's only because you wish it so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaptInReverie View Post
Oh, I couldn't help myself, but in regards to the 9th house being spirituality thing: Jupiter rules both the 9th and the 12th. Interestingly enough, if you believe that houses correspond to the signs, Pisces is symbolized by Fish, a very ancient symbol of spirituality and religion (not just Christianity).
Lets play spot the flawed logic. I'll give you a hint: A=B=C.
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  #54  
Unread 03-20-2012, 12:51 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

fwiw Anachiel mentions on another thread re: career
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Originally Posted by Anachiel View Post
OK, so here is what I gather from Morius via Wharton....

1.Houses that are above the horizon tend to elevate whereas, those below the horizon tend toward corruption.


3.He (Morin) insinuates Ptolemy corrupted some of the meanings of the houses and was in opposition to the traditional meanings of the houses. Morinus insists that the 6th should signify servants contrary to what Ptolemy thought placing them in the 12th (oh-em-gee! - out of the frying pan and into the inferno-Ptolemy must have
really had a hard time finding good help).
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  #55  
Unread 03-20-2012, 01:13 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carris View Post
Thanks RaptInReverie.

I have read a lot about "past life regression", near-death-experiences, reincarnation, karma, small children remembering their past lives and other spiritual matters. All these books have the same message - that we are souls that incarnate on earth several times just so we can learn and grow spiritually - that is the ONLY PURPOSE of life on earth.
And the 12th makes us aware of this purpose.

There is no such thing as destruction, imprisonment or self-undoing - EVERY experience is for our spiritual growth. If we keep pursuing selfish matters and refuse to turn our attention to spiritual matters - then our higher selves have to get tough with us. They have to put us in situations where we are forced to see that love and compassion is ALL that matters.

If working in hospitals, institutions, prisons etc helps us to feel love and compassion for all beings - then what is wrong with it?
*********
Carris
i can relate to this, i have sun in conjunction with uranus, exact, and pluto in the 12th house in virgo.
i find no matter what i do, i am always brought back to spiritual matters which you have mentioned above.
Very interesting topic

my chart
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...pictureid=3691
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  #56  
Unread 03-20-2012, 02:39 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

i think it makes more sense to quote directly from morin, rather then quote from someone who is quoting from someone else, who in turn is quoting on morin's supposed comments on ptolemy.. i suppose this would require reading what morin had to say as opposed to grabbing something off the internet 3rd or 4th hand..

an interesting insight that morin actually did share (see book 21 - baldwin translation) was how houses opposite one another have some, or much in common with one another.. on a regular basis morin refers to understanding celestial position (signs) alongside terrestrial position (houses) and how they need to be clearly understood as working together with celestial position being given equal or greater consideration as i understand it.. what i understand this to mean for example is this - a planet in a dignified position by sign will operate very differently and generally more favourably, regardless of the house it is in, verses one that is debilitated which won't fair well, regardless of the house position it is in..

another consideration and which morin emphasized- is the planet that rules over the sign on a house cusp. having a planet in the 12th that rules the 9th house does show up in some of the spiritual leaders charts that i looked at, as does having the the ruler of the 12th in the 12th. obviously a broad topic like spirituality is going to be captured a number of different ways thru the multi-facet symbolism of astrology.. my own thoughts on this are that the water element seems to show up more often then not.. however this is a very subjective view on my part.

i like what someone else pointed out about how jupiter has an association with the 9th and 12th sign if you go with trad rulership themes.. i think spirituality is a broad area that can be approached a number of different ways and that making an association with the 12th sign or house is also a good one..

for anyone who'd like to take a look at some of the charts at astrodatabank.com using the search engine feature focused on the word 'religion' can go here.. i do think spirituality isn't one and the same as religion, but there is a lot of cross over.. either way i do think an association with jupiter is a good one, but depending on the orientation it could be a few planets/signs/houses that connect to this.. how is that for lousy goosey? just enough to drive a few bonkers..
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  #57  
Unread 03-20-2012, 02:56 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOGY99 View Post
*********
Carris
i can relate to this, i have sun in conjunction with uranus, exact, and pluto in the 12th house in virgo.
i find no matter what i do, i am always brought back to spiritual matters which you have mentioned above.
Very interesting topic

my chart
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...pictureid=3691
Boogy,
Thanks for chiming in! Just FYI, I couldn't see your chart using that link for some reason. Would love to look at it! I have Sun conjunct Uranus as well, but it's in the 4th... another water house...

*******

I relate deeply to what Carris is saying regarding reincarnation and karma as well. However, I didn't always feel this way. As a matter of fact, when I was younger I rejected "religion" and was largely atheist. As I matured I became agnostic. Now I consider myself spiritual and the last few years have been all about discovering this aspect of myself. Astrology has helped here considerably.

What's also interesting to note is that, like Carris, my Saturn apex yod has Jupiter in the base... sextile a Venus/Neptune conjunction. You would have figured that I might have found spirituality sooner. However, Saturn being hidden in the 12th needed to be activated by the return in order for me to really pursue what was missing... although I always sensed something was missing which can be typical for a yod.

Carris, can you post a chart for us? Astro.com in the "extended chart selection" has friendly charts. It requires you to become a member but it's free.

Last edited by StillOne; 03-20-2012 at 03:06 PM.
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  #58  
Unread 03-20-2012, 03:27 AM
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Thumbs up Re: The Twelfth House

Fortunately, I have no planets or celestial bodies in my 12th -Gemini and was sparred the fate of state hospital institutionalization when I was a 4-year old boy diagnosed with autism in the mid-1980s when there was a risk, but my parents refused to admit me and came home with them.
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  #59  
Unread 03-20-2012, 05:45 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

I just want to say, before laughing my way out of this thread, that you guys are awesome. I mean, to throw out thousands of years of observations and just input your own ideals... really takes some brass ones.
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  #60  
Unread 03-20-2012, 06:01 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Thanks Boogy99, RaptInReverie and StillOne

If people like MSO refuse to want to evolve their knowledge and understanding of a subject with time, and just want to cling to astrological ideas of the dark ages - there is nothing we can do. Just think what would happen if all our scientists clung to past knowledge and refused to study, research, explore and progress further - we wouldn't have Pasteur's germ theory, antibiotics and modern medicine for example. The "thousands of years of inputs and observations" MSO clings to have very little relevance in our times. Who knows how correct and sincere their "obervations and inputs" were in the first place? Maybe they were influenced by the power play, dirty politics and dictatorship of the church of those times. Anyone searching for true spirituality and questioning the church's interpretion was sent to prison - and attending church has nothing to do with spirituality.

And the 9th is about philosophy (a very earth bound subject, focussed solely on a single lifetime on earth), not spirituality (which is focussed on our eternal immortal spirit which lives many lifetimes on earth and other dimensions as well). All planets have a higher (spiritual) and lower (material) quality to them - jupiter is not especially spiritual.

Why do people confuse spirituality with religion? The two have absolutely nothing in common! Spirituality means being focussed on our soul/spirit and not on the physical/material side of life. It means not identifying with this temporary human condition - our soul/spirit is eternal and has lived many lives in all sorts of different situations - rich, poor, tall, short, black, white, etc - living through all these varieties of lifetimes is supposed to give us an all-round perspective of the human condition and thus learn the meaning and importance of spiritual qualities of love and COMPASSION for ALL beings. Old or advanced souls (those who have lived hundreds of lifetimes on earth) have this innate compassion, goodness, equality, unity, brotherhood, understanding, patience, tolerance, forgiveness and acceptance.

Religions teach us hatred, intolerance, coercion, bigotry, dogma, guilt, fear and sin - what does this have to do with spirituality? Religion has been all about power and politics through the ages - thats why they scare people with the concepts of salvation-damnation ("follow our religion or you are damned forever"). Its definitely not a 12th house concern.

StillOne

I too started exploring spirituality in earnest sometime after my saturn return - after 30. Till then I was focussed on following society's standards of what a "normal" life should be like - even though I always had the inner feeling that it was not for me. I guess its because real spiritual knowledge is not easily available - and as children we tend to automatically pick up our parent's and community's notions of these things. Around 25-30, I went through the sadness, frustration, depression, anxiety and sorrow ascribed to the 12th - because I was not happy with my job, career and life and yet, by society's standards I was being incredibly foolish (self undoing) to give it up. But I am now at peace. Most of the depression and loneliness is caused by my saturn opp venus.

Saturn is not "hidden" in the 12th - it is just being very patient (because the 12th is a spiritual, patient, tolerant, kindly, giving, peaceful, wise, modest, gentlemanly, well-bred, selfless house) while we are young. I think all planets in the 12th are affected by this "gentlemanly" quality of the 12th - even mars behaves himself here most of the time. A gentleman goes out of his way to be good to others - even if this means inconvenience to himself - the selfish material world unfortunately sees this as a foolish, self destructive thing. This gentleman (with high morals, principles, ethics, values) gets depressed when he sees the ill-bred, selfish, superficial, corrupt behavior of the world - and thus might want solitude and isolation, and maybe a few drinks.

Last edited by Carris; 03-20-2012 at 01:59 PM.
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  #61  
Unread 03-20-2012, 07:00 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

StillOne

I have attached my chart.

Last edited by Carris; 04-07-2012 at 06:25 PM.
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  #62  
Unread 03-20-2012, 12:45 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

[QUOTE=StillOne;373255]Boogy,
Thanks for chiming in! Just FYI, I couldn't see your chart using that link for some reason. Would love to look at it! I have Sun conjunct Uranus as well, but it's in the 4th... another water house...


hope this helps


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  #63  
Unread 03-20-2012, 12:52 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaptInReverie View Post
SniperBomber328,

What, other than the opinions of other astrologers, has lead you to believe that the twelfth house is a house of self-destruction?
The 12th can be a house of self undoing such as addictions, having secret enemies which are often just imaginary. It is the house of institutionalisations, spiritual aspirations and seeking to escape and transcend. It is also our karma and our uncles and aunts paternal. It is how we are when we are alone and in retreat.
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Unread 03-20-2012, 12:58 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSO View Post
The real question is, why are you clinging to the idea that the 12th House isn't so unfortunate? It's only because you wish it so.



Lets play spot the flawed logic. I'll give you a hint: A=B=C.
Jupiter may be co ruler of the 12th but Neptune is the ruler. It can be a tough house to deal with and any misfortune is karmic in nature.
It is a very psychic house and it deal with the intangibles. A well aspected 12th house shows a spiritually evolved person who serves and heals others. The ruler is also very important. The 9th house deals with spiritual matters as in wanting the truth. It deals with justice, ethics and morality. It is the gathering of wisdom.
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  #65  
Unread 03-20-2012, 01:56 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carris View Post
StillOne

I have attached my chart.
Thanks Carris. Very interesting chart. Odd that astro.com didn't display the quincunxs but they are most definitely there and in orb. It may be because it's the simplified chart from astro (not from the extended selection). The Saturn Venus opposition is very tight. However, the Merc and Neptune oppositions to Saturn appear out of orb on this chart (may find aspects here checking declinations). I find it interesting your Sun is conjunct the descendant. Jupiter conjunct NN in Cap explains a lot as well.

Thanks for sharing!

Here's my chart in case you wanted to take a gander:

Last edited by StillOne; 03-26-2012 at 10:34 PM.
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  #66  
Unread 03-20-2012, 04:03 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Thanks StillOne

I guess our 12th in gemini makes us want to communicate about 12th house matters - and analyse it - and bring some intellectual thinking to it. Do you think that your 12th ruler mercury near the 5th cusp makes spirituality a hobby or interest for you? While mercury in scorpio would make you want to delve deeply and intensely into the subject. Mercury is quite unaspected in your horoscope - is that supposed to make it very powerful?
Sun conj uranus is supposed to give you a talent for astrology and metaphysics - and in the 4th maybe its where your roots are - or its right where your comfort zone is - and you practice such astrology in a balanced (libran), intellectual (air sign), and new (cardinal sign) way.

I haven't really been able to understand what jupiter conjunct NN would mean - does it mean my karmic task in this lifetime is to take responsibility (capricorn) for partnerships (7th) in a spirit of generosity (jupiter)? I don't see it happening in my life. Also I read and believe that the sun's position shows where we struggle to achieve, consciously. At the cusp of the 7th do I struggle with partnerships? No more than normal, I think - its more to do with my saturn opp venus by which any kind of relationship does have a difficult quality.

Last edited by Carris; 03-20-2012 at 04:13 PM.
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  #67  
Unread 03-20-2012, 05:36 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carris View Post
Thanks StillOne

I guess our 12th in gemini makes us want to communicate about 12th house matters - and analyse it - and bring some intellectual thinking to it. Do you think that your 12th ruler mercury near the 5th cusp makes spirituality a hobby or interest for you? While mercury in scorpio would make you want to delve deeply and intensely into the subject. Mercury is quite unaspected in your horoscope - is that supposed to make it very powerful?
Sun conj uranus is supposed to give you a talent for astrology and metaphysics - and in the 4th maybe its where your roots are - or its right where your comfort zone is - and you practice such astrology in a balanced (libran), intellectual (air sign), and new (cardinal sign) way.
Hi Carris, you bring up some interesting points. Some which I haven't contemplated before. I do very much enjoy talking about deeper subjects due to Merc in Scorpio (hence why I'm on this board I suppose ). Yes, possibly due to Gemini being the 12th cusp that I feel the need to try and understand it's nature. Possibly also the tight quincunx between Mercury to the Moon in the 12th makes me want to relate to the 12th. I don't consider my Merc unaspected, it may be powerful... but I have much to learn still. My hobbies/interests are of the nature that can't be mastered in a lifetime completely.

Spirituality has always been an interest due to it's controversial nature. Even when I was atheist, I enjoyed talking about it and contemplating it. I've enjoyed reading many books on it and it's stimulated the probing nature of Merc in Scorpio. Yes, when I'm interested in something I tend to research quite a bit. Also, spirtiuality would definitely be an interest or a hobby! It's interesting that you mention it in this way as I can tend to learn things thru research but maybe not applying them... I think the Saturn Yod asks for application in this instance, to where I see it becoming a way of life.

I've only recently come to these conclusions regarding the Saturn apex yod since I was saving the analysis of this yod for last (I have 2 others). However, an atrologer suggested I approach this yod second in order to understand the greater configuration (pandora). He was right, I now understand all the yods...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carris View Post
I haven't really been able to understand what jupiter conjunct NN would mean - does it mean my karmic task in this lifetime is to take responsibility (capricorn) for partnerships (7th) in a spirit of generosity (jupiter)? I don't see it happening in my life. Also I read and believe that the sun's position shows where we struggle to achieve, consciously. At the cusp of the 7th do I struggle with partnerships? No more than normal, I think - its more to do with my saturn opp venus by which any kind of relationship does have a difficult quality.
I think the NN in Capricorn is pointing to a disciplined destiny. One of the devout. I'd say that Jupiter only expands this here. You may find your relationships/partnerships revolve around this but I'm unsure since NN in Cap tends to be more solitary.

I'm uncertain of the significance of the Sun conjunct the descendant (opp asc). I did find it interesting. I'm speculating that it has to do with an uncertainty of how to operate in the world which is why you may have felt the need to try to follow a normal path before realizing that wasn't for you. Here's a link:
http://www.cafeastrology.com/natal/s...ntaspects.html
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Unread 03-20-2012, 07:59 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

greybeard,

consider relocation astrology.. it is based on what you appear to be negating in your comments to poyi. jim lewis had a lot of valuable insights to offer astrology to such a degree there are many who see much value in them. if you change the time you get a different chart.. if you change the place same thing. it doesn't over-ride the birth chart, but it is a useful chart for those who are living in a different location.. i would call it like a 4th year university course for astrologers.. if one is new to astrology work thru the first few layers before proceeding with relocation astrology..
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Unread 03-20-2012, 08:28 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

I thoroughly understand relocation charts. I was doing relocation charts long before Jim Lewis came along. They are not Birth Charts. The birth chart is yours even if you go live on Saturn. [deleted attacking comment - Moderator]

Last edited by wilsontc; 03-20-2012 at 09:02 PM.
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Unread 03-20-2012, 09:14 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

my recommendation for someone just starting out with astrology would be to concentrate on basics and forget about relocation astrology until much later in the learning curve..
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Unread 03-23-2012, 12:11 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaptInReverie View Post
SniperBomber328,

What, other than the opinions of other astrologers, has lead you to believe that the twelfth house is a house of self-destruction?

Sorry for such a late response Reverie, I have not had the time to log onto Astro Comm. for a while. Nonetheless, the reason I have stated the 12th House is of "self-destruction" is because of the usual tendencies the 12th house imposes on the native. It is called the house of "self-undoing" for a reason, and not in the 'positive' or 'spiritual' sort of way.

It's the house of prisons, hospitals, institiutions, graveyards, monasteries, etc. The things people end up doing to themselves which cause harm to either the self (native) or to others. Which is why I said that the malefics (specifically Saturn) could joy here, since the 12th dimminishes the 'malefic tendencies' that saturn can impose on the native, although it increases the harm that it does to others.

Also the reason I stated why Jupiter and Venus are not so bad being here (aside from the fact that Jupiter co-signifies the 12th House and Venus Joy's here) since they technically do not harm the native or others, from what I've read.

IMO, what MSO has stated about the A=B=C statement, and correct me if I'm wrong, is the same meaning of 1st=Mars=Aries formula. Which isn't true. Which is the point I think he was trying to make, when he/she (sorry I don't know) was stating that the 12th isn't about 'spirituality', simply because Pisces denotates this archetype. The 12th cannot be about spirituality, because it is already goverened by the 9th house (in trad. astrology). Jupiter=/=12th=/=Pisces. Although it has been stated several times, that the planets still find co-significance in the houses corresponding to their sign number division (if that makes sense).
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Last edited by SniperBomber328; 03-23-2012 at 12:15 PM.
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Unread 03-23-2012, 04:26 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperBomber328 View Post
Sorry for such a late response Reverie, I have not had the time to log onto Astro Comm. for a while. Nonetheless, the reason I have stated the 12th House is of "self-destruction" is because of the usual tendencies the 12th house imposes on the native. It is called the house of "self-undoing" for a reason, and not in the 'positive' or 'spiritual' sort of way.

It's the house of prisons, hospitals, institiutions, graveyards, monasteries, etc. The things people end up doing to themselves which cause harm to either the self (native) or to others. Which is why I said that the malefics (specifically Saturn) could joy here, since the 12th dimminishes the 'malefic tendencies' that saturn can impose on the native, although it increases the harm that it does to others.

Also the reason I stated why Jupiter and Venus are not so bad being here (aside from the fact that Jupiter co-signifies the 12th House and Venus Joy's here) since they technically do not harm the native or others, from what I've read.

IMO, what MSO has stated about the A=B=C statement, and correct me if I'm wrong, is the same meaning of 1st=Mars=Aries formula. Which isn't true. Which is the point I think he was trying to make, when he/she (sorry I don't know) was stating that the 12th isn't about 'spirituality', simply because Pisces denotates this archetype. The 12th cannot be about spirituality, because it is already goverened by the 9th house (in trad. astrology). Jupiter=/=12th=/=Pisces. Although it has been stated several times, that the planets still find co-significance in the houses corresponding to their sign number division (if that makes sense).
Sniperbomber

The 9th is about philosophy, not spirituality. Philosophy does not recognize the fact that we are souls/spirits - it is focussed on the human condition. Spirituality, on the hand, recognizes that we are primarily souls/spirits who incarnate as humans on earth many times - so it doesn't make sense to worry too much about the human condition.

And I'm speaking from PERSONAL experience when I say that all my interest is now focussed towards spirituality - I really don't feel interested in other things anymore. Also, introspection and study do require solitude to concentrate.

And in many people with significant 12th houses, I have not seen any of the negative characteristics attributed to the 12th. We can't go by astrological "research" and "observations" of the dark ages anymore. If I had lived in the dark ages, I too would have a faced a very negative outcome by trying to pursue real spiritual knowledge (not to be confused with religion or church). I would probably have been imprisoned, hospitalized, burnt as witch, ended up in a monastery or worse.

In the 12th, we realize the spiritual truth that Everything Is One, Everything Is God, and god is All There Is (as you can see this has nothing to do with philosophy or religion of the 9th). We can see the Oneness of all creation - so there is no scope of wanting to hurt or harm anyone or anything - this knowledge automatically brings love, compassion, forgiveness, patience, tolerance, etc - maybe that is why the person prefers to self-destruct rather than be party to the corruption on earth. Once we realize this spiritual knowledge our work on earth is complete and there is often no need to reincarnate anymore - thats probably why they call it the house of moksha or nirvana in vedic astrology.

The sun in 12th feels this spirituality as its natural self. Whereas, saturn thrashes you black and blue till you see this spirituality.

If the 12th is not prominent in your chart, that means that you are not yet ready to realize this spiritual knowledge - you have many more lifetimes to complete on earth and many other lessons to learn before you attain moksha/nirvana and "merge" (loss of identity as a separate individual) with the divine once again.

Last edited by Carris; 03-24-2012 at 03:40 PM.
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Unread 03-23-2012, 06:13 PM
Anachiel Anachiel is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

In traditional and ancient astrology, the 9th is the House of God. There really wasn't a word for what today we call "spirituality". In fact, some cultures that were into astrology did not share our common theme of "afterlife", "heaven" or even "spirit" as we modernly conceive of it.

The 12th, traditionally, did not have an association with spirits. The closest attribution would be witchcraft which, by today's standards, would be similar to treason or a heretic or possibly an outcast or insane person. It would not equate with what today we call witchcraft with it's beneign Goddess worshiping adherants.

The reason the 12th house, like the 2nd, 6th and 8th houses, was considered "bad" was because it could not cast a perfect aspect to the 1st house or, Ascendant. The same with the 2nd, 6th and 8th houses. They too cannot cast perfect aspects to the Ascendant and, therefore, became injurious to the Ascendant. Matters that these houses rule are "hidden" because of this; things such as 12th = imprisonment, 8th = death, 6th = illness, 2nd = plutocracy, money, material and moveable goods.

So, on one hand you have a planet that is rising and think, "why is the 12th all that bad?" However, it is "bad" because, like the 8th, even though planets in it are visible, they cannot aspect the Ascendant in any helpful manner and are therefore injurious.

I hope that helps, somewhat, with the traditional views behind why the 12th is the 12th.

Also, not all Planets act the same in each house. For example, Jupiter in the 2nd might be considered fortunate but, the Sun in the same place can consume your resources. Saturn in the 12th might joy there being very adept with limitations, but the Moon might find herself cramped in style and expression in the 12th, particularly if she has no dignity or is weak.
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Last edited by Anachiel; 03-23-2012 at 06:18 PM. Reason: Planets act differently in different houses.
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Unread 03-24-2012, 01:47 AM
gen6k gen6k is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

Some people say that the 12th cant really be pinned down because of its anti-thetical partition on the self.

I would personally see it as some organic dionysiac collective unconscious. What are the real *motivations*, not in the psychological scorpionic sense, but in the inherent surmise of a specific event. Its really just energy taking its turn somewhere.

Its not how one would explain something from a Saturnine standpoint. But if someone had saturn in the 12th, which signifies organized ambition, maybe their socio-linear track could feel imprisioned outside of it.

I have Mars and Chiron in the 12th in Gemini. I can see its immense healing potential, and its immense destructive potential. The mars is in oppositions with Uranus, Neptune, Saturn in the 6th.

That is probably why Monastaries (clergymen) and (prisoners) are both part of this group, its more of a force rather than an attribute. In a way the prisoner understands the clergymen in a fashion that ordinary people can't.
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Unread 03-24-2012, 03:14 AM
sandstone sandstone is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

'evil spirit' is a term used by paulus to refer to the 12th house.. paulus is an old astrology writer.. let me quote page 118 from dorian gieseler greenbaum translation in a book called : late classical astrology: paulus alexandrinus and olympoidorus

"the 12th place which we will address as evil spirit and pre ascension of the horoskopos, which is a decline, signifies the reckoning about sufferings, childbirth, enemies, and male slaves, in relation to the stars which are in it, since only kronos rejoices in it."

it goes on, but this ought to give one enough of an idea to know how confusing things can get with astrology and different authors down thru history giving different perspectives on it all not that it is my intent to confuse..
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