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  #26  
Unread 03-19-2012, 01:17 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

In addition to Saturn (yod apex) and my Moon, I also have the South Node posited in the 12th. Does anyone know how that may be interpreted? I'm thinking that I'm bringing past spiritual experience into this incarnation and will use it increasingly as my service (6th house North Node) to others. Saturn is actually conjunct my South Node here... which means the North Node "boomerangs" my Saturn apex Yod.


Last edited by StillOne; 03-19-2012 at 01:20 AM.
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Unread 03-19-2012, 01:40 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

StillOne,

Quote:
The North Node in the Sixth House or in Virgo
Source: Gina Lake, Symbols of the Soul

Quote:
The South Node in the Twelfth House or in Pisces
Source: Gina Lake, Symbols of the Soul

Quote:
Saturn in the Twelfth House or in Pisces

Many with this placement of Saturn are drawn to serving those confined in institutions. This may be to assuage their own fear of being confined, dependent, incapacitated, mentally ill, or helpless from having experienced these conditions in a former lifetime. Their service in these areas also may be a way for them to repay service that they received from society when they were dependent or incapacitated. Those with this placement, especially those who have been mentally ill in the past, are afraid of being engulfed by their emotions and of losing their identity.
Source: Gina Lake, Symbols of the Soul

[multiple quotes from same source and quote over 100 words against forum rules - Moderator]

Does this resonate with you? Unfortunately its approach is in accord with the traditional meanings of the twelfth house, but at least it does so utilizing karmic explanations. I thought you might find it interesting.
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Last edited by wilsontc; 03-19-2012 at 06:10 PM. Reason: Highlighting my sources
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Unread 03-19-2012, 02:36 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Thanks Rapt! Yes, I definitely do resonate with most of those descriptions... except for paragraph one about the Saturn position. I identify more with paragraph 2 (I copied everything to my notes as I'm sure the Mods will come and delete most of that due to their rules). I think in my case, karmic debt is more fitting. However, I'm unsure of it's origin and nature at this point. Service, particularly spiritual or psychological is something that I strongly identify with. The last few sentences in paragraph 2 of the Saturn position are brilliant! Thanks for sharing that information. I'll make sure to revisit and contemplate!

I hope the OP gets a chance to read that before it's taken down... Otherwise he/she can PM me to get those particulars.

Last edited by StillOne; 03-19-2012 at 02:41 AM.
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Unread 03-19-2012, 03:13 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Traditional astrology is what it is. People who practice it to the exclusion of other forms are pretty well stuck with its teachings. On the other hand, even a committed traditionalist will look at the entire chart and generally find other positives in it. Also in traditional astrology, the sun isn't the "real me" point, so much as the first house.
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  #30  
Unread 03-19-2012, 03:23 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Reverie

If we take the Twelfth House as the last house in a progressive series representing a cycle, any cycle, with the First House as the point of emergence or beginning, we have come to the point of Disintegration. "Have you heard of the wonderful one-hoss shay, That was built in such a logical way, It ran a hundred years to a day, And then of a sudden it — ah, but stay.... " All things carry within them, from birth, their own destruction; the Twelfth House is the final destiny of the seedling which sprouted in the First House, Flowered in the Tenth, and now is the Seed carrying the next generation within itself. But in order to bring forth this new life it must die, be dissolved, cast off the outer shell. To a physical being these things are painful, for they entail the Loss of Self to something greater.

The Twelfth House is not only Imprisonment and Bondage, but is also Liberation and Release. This is that.

From the Bhagavad Gita come these words, which may be relevant: "There is the pleasure of following the right path which leads to the end of all pain. What seems at first a cup of sorrow is found in the end immortal wine. That pleasure is pure; it is the joy which arises from a clear vision of the Spirit."

Have you read Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl? It is the recounting of his experiences in Auschwitz, which he survived to tell about. It is a book about the Twelfth House and its contents. You might enjoy it.

Last edited by greybeard; 03-19-2012 at 03:30 AM.
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  #31  
Unread 03-19-2012, 03:46 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

I can potentially see that if you were unaware of astrology and your 12th house planets/aspects that it could be a dangerous house along the lines of the definitions given by traditional astrology...
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  #32  
Unread 03-19-2012, 03:46 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Greybeard,

In traditional astrology death, decay, loss, and inheritance are eighth house matters. Were the houses to be taken as progressions in a series, the eighth house would signify the conclusion. Of course it doesn't, and naturally it is followed by four more houses, two of which definitely do not equate to the consummation of one's existence on the physical plane.
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  #33  
Unread 03-19-2012, 04:21 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

it is tricky to talk about what the 12th house means without discussing the nature of house systems to an extent.. when someone says they have a planet in the 12th, another astrologer may perceive it being more in the 1st then the 12th.. without specifics, all the examples have a built in house system bias that might get in the way of a better understanding of all this..

disclosure : i tend to see the sign on the ascendant and any planet in this sign as first house in nature.. i suppose the further away from the ascendant degree will change this some, but overall this is my take on what the 1st house is, not what the 12th house is.. for me the 12th is going to be a different sign then the ascendant sign.. thus i am using a whole sign house, or equal house system as my guide..

also, for me venus in the 12th is positive in many regards and would overturn ideas around the idea of the 12th having something to do with enemies.. if you think of someone standing behind you that you can't see - i think this is where the idea of the 12th being a house of hidden dynamics comes from... venus in a hidden spot is a net positive, as opposed to a negative it being a 'benefic' planet either way.. these are just some random thoughts and others will see it differently..

Last edited by sandstone; 03-19-2012 at 04:23 AM.
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Unread 03-19-2012, 04:32 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

The 12th House isn't the last House, fellow astrologers. The planets move backwards (clockwise) through the houses, technically the 2nd house is the last one. To say the 12th sums up everything or is some soul evolution house is garbage. To further drive the point home, the zodiac, and the houses, are a circle with no beginning or end. The first house is only the first because we say so. We can put the number 1 on any house we want and go from there.

Anyways, according to Tobey, it's Gemini and not Pisces that is the final culmination of all things learned throughout the zodiac (in fact, Pisces is only second-to-last as it pertains to the introverted signs, meaning even Virgo has a higher presence). And since 99.999999999% of you believe 12th = Pisces, this would mean your thoughts on the 12th being "final" or "the end" are just wrong. Likewise, linking spirituality to a house that embodies imprisonment and hidden enemies is a bit whacky. And if you feel that the 12th does not signify that which is imprisoned, feel free to read a few more charts with 12th house placements and let me know how it pans out.
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Last edited by MSO; 03-19-2012 at 04:35 AM.
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  #35  
Unread 03-19-2012, 04:33 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandstone View Post
i tend to see the sign on the ascendant and any planet in this sign as first house in nature.. i suppose the further away from the ascendant degree will change this some, but overall this is my take on what the 1st house is, not what the 12th house is.. for me the 12th is going to be a different sign then the ascendant sign.. thus i am using a whole sign house, or equal house system as my guide..
Thanks James,
I've contemplated my Saturn apex Yod in the 1st house, as well, and have come to the conclusion that it's nature is quite similar there as it is in the 12th. I wonder how the OP feels about this?
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  #36  
Unread 03-19-2012, 04:42 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

thanks stillone,

mso

the fact is the planets are moving in both directions - up from the ascendant towards the midheaven - diurnal motion of the earth rotating on its axis from west to east, and celestial motion - thru the (tropical or sidereal) zodiac ( as seen via the 'plane of the ecliptic' which is actually earth rotating around the sun) from one sign to the next.. this creates a degree of confusion to anyone new to astrology.. generally more emphasis is given to the earths movement around the sun, then the daily motion on its axis from west to east which appears to be why the houses are numbered the way they are and not the other way around.. one could easily number then the other way though and get some interesting insights too..

i like carl payne tobeys writing and unique insights.. perhaps he was working with the idea that gemini is the 12th sign to cancer which is the ascendant in the thema mundi chart that some astrologers from a very long time ago used for a chart for the planet..

Last edited by sandstone; 03-19-2012 at 04:45 AM.
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Unread 03-19-2012, 04:45 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandstone View Post
thanks stillone,

mso

the fact is the planets are moving in both directions - up from the ascendant towards the midheaven - diurnal motion of the earth rotating on its axis from west to east, and celestial motion - thru the (tropical or sidereal) zodiac ( as seen via the 'plane of the ecliptic' which is actually earth rotating around the sun) from one sign to the next.. this creates a degree of confusion to anyone new to astrology.. generally more emphasis is given to the earths movement around the sun, then the daily motion on its axis from west to east which appears to be why the houses are numbered the way they are and not the other way around.. one could easily number then the other way though and get some interesting insights too..
The house system is not the zodiac. You don't use the zodiac when you're arranging the houses except when you're using whole sign, and then that's only to anchor the houses into place, the motion of the planets in the zodiac is irrelevant to houses.

The simple way to resolve it is to look at your birth time. If you were born 3 hours later, do your planets move forward through the houses, or backwards?
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Unread 03-19-2012, 04:50 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

the numbering of houses is arbitrary.. the important key to understand is "movement" taking place on a number of levels and directions..
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Unread 03-19-2012, 04:51 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandstone View Post
the numbering of houses is arbitrary.. the important key to understand is "movement" taking place on a number of levels and directions..
Which is contrary to the motion of the planets in the zodiac. Therefore, numbers or no, the houses do move backwards.
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Unread 03-19-2012, 04:52 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

to say houses move backwards is to suggest the houses are moving, lol.. it is the earth that is moving on it's axis.. the houses are a division of space along the ecliptic as perceived from earth.. either the houses are moving or the earth is moving.. take yer pick..
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Unread 03-19-2012, 04:57 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandstone View Post
to say houses move backwards is to suggest the houses are moving, lol.. it is the earth that is moving on it's axis.. the houses are a division of space along the ecliptic as perceived from earth.. either the houses are moving or the earth is moving.. take yer pick..
Now you're arguing semantics. Planets move backwards through the houses and forwards through the signs.

We're deviating from the point of this thread, which is discussion of the 12th House.
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Unread 03-19-2012, 07:03 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Most of the commonly used quadrant house systems (not all) are actually divisions of the equator, with the "results" of the division expressed in celestial longitude, that is, along the ecliptic. But the divisions are actually equatorial and then projected onto the ecliptic.
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Unread 03-19-2012, 07:15 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

"Do not deny the classical approach, simply as a reaction, or you will have created another pattern and trapped yourself there." -- Bruce Lee
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Unread 03-19-2012, 07:37 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

My aunt has a stellium of four planets in the 12th - and is very happy with her marriage, kids and life. The only 12th effect is that she is very engaged with her community and is very service oriented. Also she left her homeland after marriage and immigrated to a foreign country far away from her birth place. She has never faced any imprisonment, loss or sorrow. Its just that she lost her very loving father when she was just 23 - but that was more than made up by the rest of her very loving caring mother and siblings.
I really cannot find a negative aspect to the 12th house. But then I don't see the need for solitude as a negative thing - I am a loner and I do need time alone in order to function.

Like I've written in my previous posts - Spirituality is the MOST important thing in life - its why we are here on earth. The 12th does us a big favor by pointing us towards spirituality - so that we can progress towards freedom from the cycle of karma and reincarnation. Do you really want to keep endlessly reincarnating on earth? Read "Many lives many masters - Dr Brian Weiss". We cannot stop reincarnating until we have learnt all our spiritual lessons. Unfortunately books such as this are not widely known and this knowledge is hidden from us - that is why we suffer in the 12th - we seek knowledge but it is not to be found. On top of that, the religions teach us all sorts of nonsense - make us feel guilty and fearful - that's why people get depressed and end up in hospitals and institutions.

As more true real spiritual knowledge has become available - that we souls/spirits are eternal - people become more comfortable with spirituality and the 12th.

My saturn is in gemini 15*24' and ascendent is cancer 5*52' - so its definitely in the 12th house - where it had just risen in the east as I was born (the sun was setting in the west just 3*03' above the descendent) - the tough taskmaster telling me that I'd better turn towards spirituality in this lifetime and that I actually have no choice because he won't allow me to do anything else except concentrate on spirituality. My saturn is also exactly opposite my venus - a very clear sign that I'm not supposed to wantonly indulge in worldly materialistic superficial pursuits in this lifetime - but to find a happy balance.

Last edited by Carris; 03-19-2012 at 08:12 AM.
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Unread 03-19-2012, 07:39 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

I'm not locked into any one approach or method, Greybeard.

"I was more independent than any farmer in Concord, for I was not anchored to a house or farm, but could follow the bent of my genius, which is a very crooked one, every moment."


Henry David Thoreau
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Unread 03-19-2012, 11:02 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carris View Post
My aunt has a stellium of four planets in the 12th - and is very happy with her marriage, kids and life. The only 12th effect is that she is very engaged with her community and is very service oriented. Also she left her homeland after marriage and immigrated to a foreign country far away from her birth place. She has never faced any imprisonment, loss or sorrow. Its just that she lost her very loving father when she was just 23 - but that was more than made up by the rest of her very loving caring mother and siblings.
I really cannot find a negative aspect to the 12th house. But then I don't see the need for solitude as a negative thing - I am a loner and I do need time alone in order to function.

Like I've written in my previous posts - Spirituality is the MOST important thing in life - its why we are here on earth. The 12th does us a big favor by pointing us towards spirituality - so that we can progress towards freedom from the cycle of karma and reincarnation. Do you really want to keep endlessly reincarnating on earth? Read "Many lives many masters - Dr Brian Weiss". We cannot stop reincarnating until we have learnt all our spiritual lessons. Unfortunately books such as this are not widely known and this knowledge is hidden from us - that is why we suffer in the 12th - we seek knowledge but it is not to be found. On top of that, the religions teach us all sorts of nonsense - make us feel guilty and fearful - that's why people get depressed and end up in hospitals and institutions.

As more true real spiritual knowledge has become available - that we souls/spirits are eternal - people become more comfortable with spirituality and the 12th.

My saturn is in gemini 15*24' and ascendent is cancer 5*52' - so its definitely in the 12th house - where it had just risen in the east as I was born (the sun was setting in the west just 3*03' above the descendent) - the tough taskmaster telling me that I'd better turn towards spirituality in this lifetime and that I actually have no choice because he won't allow me to do anything else except concentrate on spirituality. My saturn is also exactly opposite my venus - a very clear sign that I'm not supposed to wantonly indulge in worldly materialistic superficial pursuits in this lifetime - but to find a happy balance.
You're biased. Your input, although.... thoughtful, I guess, is pointless. Spirituality is only important to people who are obsessed with it. It's just one point of view among many.

For example, some people would say love is the most important part of life. What's the point of building heaping piles of good karma and kindness if you love no one, and aren't loved in return?

Or another viewpoint; that you're on earth to learn a lesson, and focusing on other-worldly affairs negates the purpose for your existence here.

Spirituality is not the most important thing to life. And the 12th House is not a house of spirituality. If both were true, there would be an extremely heavy focus on the 12th House in all forms of astrology. In truth, planets in the 12th House are looked upon as being in a mild debility.

Anyways, your assumptions that the 12th House is in fact spirituality is based on A=B=C mentality. Although it sounds pretty straight forward, it's wrong. I'm happy to see that there is a growing surge of people realizing that the houses do not equate to the signs, at least not as they see it right now.
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Unread 03-19-2012, 01:50 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

MSO, do you have any planets in the 12th house? I'm thinking you don't... Possibly after your Saturn return the topic of spirituality may interest you more. Especially after transiting Saturn conjuncts your natal Neptune...

Anyhow, I also believe that Yods involving Saturn as an apex tend to be spiritual in nature regardless where it's posited. I think an apex in the 12th can enhance this nature.

I think the OP is merely suggesting that to him, spirituality is the most important element in his life. He may be suggesting that spirituality is the most important element in life, period, and that people merely have not awakened to this aspect, yet. However, as we know, people have their own beliefs about what life is all about and the good thing is that to most people here on this board we are in locations that offer freedom in what we want to believe.

Carris, maybe you'd care to post a chart? What planets make up your Yod?

Last edited by StillOne; 03-19-2012 at 03:21 PM.
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Unread 03-19-2012, 04:11 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Thanks StillOne

Yes thats what I'm saying - that a prominent 12th means the need to focus on spirituality in this lifetime. Probably they have spent many lifetimes focussing on every other aspect of life and have avoided spirituality, love and compassion in themselves. And we cannot ascend to a higher consciousness unless we develop spiritually. My yod is saturn apex in 12th with moon in 5th and jupiter in 7th.

MSO

Why are planets in 12th looked upon as being in debility? I don't see it happening in real life. I've seen many charts with prominent 12th houses - but I haven't seen a single instance of the negativity that is ascribed to it.

Maybe in the dark ages, a person searching for the truth about spirituality was sent to prison or mental institutions by Christianity - so it could have been a negative thing then. But not now. If someone gives up a well-paying job to pursue their spiritual interests - I guess you would call it typical "self-undoing" and "self-destructive" behavior of the 12th - but your view would be wrong.

Last edited by Carris; 03-19-2012 at 04:13 PM.
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Unread 03-19-2012, 05:20 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Carris, I would modify your take on the 12th house just slightly, to suggest that if someone has the sun in the 12th or a loaded 12th house, life probably works best if they develop an altruistic purpose. This is especially the case if s/he has a tenanted 6th house (of service) as well.

Not everyone is cut out to be spiritual, mystical, or religious. They just don't have it in them. I have several family members like this. On the other hand, they are committed to living an ethical life. For such individuals, commiting to a cause or group of people provides that sense of altruism, and is a constructive use of this "house of self-undoing." The ego gets out of the way.
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Unread 03-19-2012, 07:36 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carris View Post
Thanks StillOne

Yes thats what I'm saying - that a prominent 12th means the need to focus on spirituality in this lifetime. Probably they have spent many lifetimes focussing on every other aspect of life and have avoided spirituality, love and compassion in themselves. And we cannot ascend to a higher consciousness unless we develop spiritually. My yod is saturn apex in 12th with moon in 5th and jupiter in 7th.

MSO

Why are planets in 12th looked upon as being in debility? I don't see it happening in real life. I've seen many charts with prominent 12th houses - but I haven't seen a single instance of the negativity that is ascribed to it.

Maybe in the dark ages, a person searching for the truth about spirituality was sent to prison or mental institutions by Christianity - so it could have been a negative thing then. But not now. If someone gives up a well-paying job to pursue their spiritual interests - I guess you would call it typical "self-undoing" and "self-destructive" behavior of the 12th - but your view would be wrong.
Planets in the 12th are looked at as being in debility because they don't aspect the ascendant. The same is true for the 2nd, 6th, and 8th houses.

During the dark ages if you weren't a devout Christian people felt as if there was something wrong with you. You weren't sent to prison or mental institutions (mostly because they didn't exist) if you spent all day praying. People really didn't have much to do but be spiritual.

I know you probably feel as if you're in some super important time when spirituality is making this huge awakening, but you're not. Today's Christians don't know anything about devotion to spirituality. (Do you go to church every single day, sometimes more than once? They did.)

While looking through my astrology books to find just what the 12th House represents, I think it's funny how the 9th House represents spirituality for thousands of years, and then because someone figured Pisces is more spiritual than Sagittarius, and then figured the 12th House must be Pisces, that the 12th House must be spirituality.

But oh well, I think you honestly believe your pious bleating of "spirituality" is any different from mainstream religions. I think you separate the 9th House from the 12th based on what you perceive to be a very big difference in the approach taken. Your view (summed up by "spirituality is the MOST important thing in life") is very much a 9th House affair.
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Last edited by MSO; 03-19-2012 at 07:38 PM.
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