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  #26  
Unread 01-20-2012, 03:29 AM
Yuusha Yuusha is offline
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

Well well well, now that I have discovered that there is more to astrology than the geocentric perspective (even from the geocentric perspective, I need to understand my sidereal chart better. I am pretty familiar with my tropical chart, but I don't understand my vedic sidereal chart as much), I experimented with the heliocentric perspective a bit.

I'll definitely have to get a new understanding of my birth chart from a heliocentric angle, though I'm more inclined to believe that the sidereal chart may be more accurate because I would find it really strange to only have water and earth in my chart.

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  #27  
Unread 01-20-2012, 03:39 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
There are Western Sidereal Astrologers - eg Cyril Fagan http://www.westernsiderealastrology....cyrilfagan.asp and here's another website that refers to Cyril Fagan http://www.eclipses.biz/ancient_mistake.html
and

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuusha View Post
Well well well, now that I have discovered that there is more to astrology than the geocentric perspective (even from the geocentric perspective, I need to understand my sidereal chart better. I am pretty familiar with my tropical chart, but I don't understand my vedic sidereal chart as much), I experimented with the heliocentric perspective a bit.
Can we please all understand that sidereal does not = Vedic astrology? As JUPITERASC points out, there is actually a history of western astrologers using the sidereal zodiac to understand astrology without Vedic interpretations....
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  #28  
Unread 01-20-2012, 03:43 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

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Originally Posted by Yuusha View Post
Well well well, now that I have discovered that there is more to astrology than the geocentric perspective (even from the geocentric perspective, I need to understand my sidereal chart better. I am pretty familiar with my tropical chart, but I don't understand my vedic sidereal chart as much), I experimented with the heliocentric perspective a bit.

I'll definitely have to get a new understanding of my birth chart from a heliocentric angle, though I'm more inclined to believe that the sidereal chart may be more accurate because I would find it really strange to only have water and earth in my chart.
I don't really care how my chart looks in any system,I could be an *** sign if there was one-I don't care, I care to find the RIGHT and real method,and I know one of these methods is reaally fake,I'm just still learning which,and go through the path of elimination.

Last edited by Choe; 01-20-2012 at 03:45 AM.
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  #29  
Unread 01-20-2012, 03:50 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

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Originally Posted by Choe View Post
I don't really care how my chart looks in any system,I could be an *** sign if there was one-I don't care, I care to find the RIGHT and real method,and I know one of these methods is reaally fake,I'm just still learning which,and go through the path of elimination.
Neither is really fake. They usually tell the same story in different ways.
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  #30  
Unread 01-20-2012, 03:54 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

@tsmall

Sorry about that. The first time I came across sidereal astrology was through Vedic astrology. However, I'll definitely look more into Western sidereal astrology, where the positions of the Sun, the Moon, Venus, Mars, Saturn and the Lunar Nodes are pretty similar to Vedic, but there is the added bonus of Uranus, Neptune, Pluto and the differences between the two geocentric sidereal methods in terms of planetary positions are by a degree or two.

@Choe

I think different charts can lead to similar conclusions in some ways, the challenge is to see which ones harmonize with each other the most. I was just particularly shocked by my tropical heliocentric birth chart because I usually have quite an amount of fire in my birth chart, so I'm not sure what would explain the enthusiastic side of my personality without that.
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  #31  
Unread 01-20-2012, 04:00 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

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@Choe

I think different charts can lead to similar conclusions in some ways, the challenge is to see which ones harmonize with each other the most. I was just particularly shocked by my tropical heliocentric birth chart because I usually have quite an amount of fire in my birth chart, so I'm not sure what would explain the enthusiastic side of my personality without that.
I know that. My geocentric chart makes more sense I think,but still there is NO LOGIC ,how can you use planets of the Solar System and say that the Sun moves around the Earth? It's imaginary astrology, not reality-based, that's what bothers me.

Last edited by Choe; 01-20-2012 at 05:35 AM.
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  #32  
Unread 01-20-2012, 04:03 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

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@tsmall

Sorry about that. The first time I came across sidereal astrology was through Vedic astrology. However, I'll definitely look more into Western sidereal astrology, where the positions of the Sun, the Moon, Venus, Mars, Saturn and the Lunar Nodes are pretty similar to Vedic, but there is the added bonus of Uranus, Neptune, Pluto and the differences between the two geocentric sidereal methods in terms of planetary positions are by a degree or two.
No, I'm sorry that it seems as though I was chastizing you for a mistake I often see made. As far as sidereal...sigh...if you really start to investigate, you will find that there are more ayanamsas than the two to be found on astro.com, and that is the reason most often given for the arguement about why the sidereal zodiac is "unreliable." I think retinoid said it best...they usually tell the same story in different ways.
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  #33  
Unread 01-20-2012, 07:55 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

Just because you think a Gemini Moon fits you better does not make sidereal more accurate. You have Mercury in the first house, any of your logic surrounding that situation is biased. And what makes you think you have a Capricorn Sun? How can you even tell? Your Sun is in a sign ruled by Saturn, recieving reception, and sextiling it. Not to mention the Moon is the main luminary in your chart and isn't in aspect with your Sun.

But hey, whatever floats your boat. Enjoy all 40 degrees of Virgo! If there's one thing I can live without, it's more Virgo in my life. Oh, but you probably still use sign = 30 degrees. Because using the actual stars, of course, only relates to where Aries is, which is in itself a flawed philosophy (that is, spring = beginning so therefore Aries = beginning).

I'm far too uninterested to see how this thread degraded into an argument about point of view... but guys, really? I take a cow-centric view on astrology. I find the nearest cow and cast a horary chart from it's position.
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  #34  
Unread 01-20-2012, 09:36 PM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

It's not mostly about the Gemini Moon. It's mostly about which planets come up to be the most powerful in multiple types of trad. In trad, it's always Venus followed by the Moon (or vice versa) in tropical, and Mercury followed by Saturn (when it isn't more Mercury) in sidereal. In trad, I also have Jupiter and Saturn as final dispositors in reception. Not having a final dispositor(s) makes you scattered because you don't have a planet(s) you have to ask before you do something. I'm clearly quite obsessive and therefore not scattered. By the way, the Moon is out of sect according to some schools of astrology so according to them the Sun would be the main luminary on my chart. I don't really care which one it is or which planets belong to which sect seeing as no one can agree on the sects of Mercury, Venus, and Saturn (which also happen to be my favorite planets) and occasionally Mars.

Yesterday I got some great advice, although it was misquoted. I'm so loose and I have "nothing mistrustful." I also totally haven't been called "the hardest-working person [a person] know[s]" verbatim before (even if it's not entirely true.)

Last edited by Rebel Uranian; 01-20-2012 at 09:40 PM.
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  #35  
Unread 01-20-2012, 11:17 PM
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Cool Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

Right now: Moon at 016' Capricorn, Sun 018' Aquarius-CAPRICORN

The front page describes the sun in Aquarius, but any astronomer will find the sun is in Capricorn and the moon should (it doesn't today) eclipse the sun: the moon has to be in Sagittarius approaching Capricorn later today.

Astrologically speaking, concerning the events relating to the passage of NDAA, SOPA and PIPA...and anti-government protests by the OWS and Tea Party...and finally, the anti-war demonstrations in the US about our proposed war games in the strait of Hormuz triggers a backlash with Iran: the Lunar Sagittarian-Solar Capricorn combination symbolizes a socially conscious "bad mood" by the general public against their governments.
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or , I have the same ruling planets: Uranus and Saturn. I see the Cancer rising. Aries in the MC and Venus was her name!
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  #36  
Unread 01-20-2012, 11:52 PM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

So are you agreeing or just giving evidence?

Also, is that directed towards Uranus and a towards Saturn? Just curious. I give them both .

Last edited by Rebel Uranian; 01-21-2012 at 04:47 PM.
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  #37  
Unread 01-21-2012, 04:51 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

You're experiencing what's called Capricorn Denial Syndrome, similar to the popular Virgo Denial Syndrome.

Furthermore, you're young. The older you get, the more you begin to embody your natal chart. When you're old enough to know who you are, you should re-evaluate your chart and see how well it fits you.
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  #38  
Unread 01-21-2012, 11:52 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

Sidereal is NOT more accurate. It is as much a symbolic division of the sky as tropical. The constellations do not divvy up the heavens in thirty-degree chunks. What's more, my sidereal chart makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever (I become a Sun-Aries for starters, which is just ludicrous)
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  #39  
Unread 01-21-2012, 11:54 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

Sun-Moon aspects are way too fleeting to account for the things you describe CapAqua. You're looking at outer planetary influences there - Pluto in Capricorn, for instance.
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  #40  
Unread 01-21-2012, 04:55 PM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

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Originally Posted by MSO View Post
You're experiencing what's called Capricorn Denial Syndrome, similar to the popular Virgo Denial Syndrome.
Actually, I'm an Aquarius, but that makes no sense to me since I'm introverted, a [strikethrough]pessimist[/strikethrough] realist, and I don't exactly fit the "sanguine" descriptor from the video links in my siggie, so I want to be a Capricorn. Cold and dry just suits me better than hot and wet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inconjunct
Sidereal is NOT more accurate. It is as much a symbolic division of the sky as tropical. The constellations do not divvy up the heavens in thirty-degree chunks. What's more, my sidereal chart makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever (I become a Sun-Aries for starters, which is just ludicrous)
Why should the equinoxes and solstices divvy up the heavens in thirty-degree chunks? I can point to constellations. I can some-what point to equinoxes and solstices, but I can't divide the sky into 12 based on them, or at least I can't say that those twelvefold are real objects under the name Capricorn, Aquarius, etc. Astronomers would laugh. Why should those 30-degree chunks based on equinox and solstice points even have any influence in the first place? I'm getting to know myself. I know that I'm a terrible Aquarius because I'm just so sanguine [/sarcasm] and I'm also a terrible Cancer because I'd rather be alone than be close to people. I would still be a terrible Gemini because I don't talk enough. I'm not scattered or a lazy bum (the Moon and Venus are lazy bums at best) like my tropical chart suggests, and the use of both of my malefics is generally beneficial to me. While we're on malefics, a dude I know has Mars in Scorpio as his final dispositor and he can't keep a secret. He has Saturn in Taurus and he can't hang onto money for his life (no offense to him.)

Edit: Cancer Moons and Aqua Suns are supposed to have really light and jovial dispositons. Do either of those signs like scary or heavy things, like I use in my arts all the time? I don't think so, but I could be wrong... Of course I'm a (my final dispositors.) = the darkest sign, = the most creative sign.

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Originally Posted by Choe View Post
It's imaginary astrology, not reality-based, that's what bothers me.
Isn't all astrology imaginary?

Last edited by Rebel Uranian; 01-21-2012 at 05:44 PM.
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  #41  
Unread 01-21-2012, 07:17 PM
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Unhappy Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

Rebel Uranian said: Edit: Cancer Moons and Aqua Suns are supposed to have really light and jovial dispositons. Do either of those signs like scary or heavy things, like I use in my arts all the time? I don't think so, but I could be wrong... Of course I'm a (my final dispositors.) = the darkest sign, = the most creative sign.

well...I suppose Cancer sun/Aquarius moon has a more happier effect than vice versa, and for me Cancer ascendant with a more Capricorn-Pisces (?) mood plus the triple planet combination of Mars/Jupiter/Saturn in Virgo (or Leo)...and Uranus in Scorpio (or Neptune) gave me dark negative vibes.
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or , I have the same ruling planets: Uranus and Saturn. I see the Cancer rising. Aries in the MC and Venus was her name!
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  #42  
Unread 01-21-2012, 08:07 PM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

Cancer is still supposed to be jovial, as is the sanguine sign of Aquarius. I'm not really.
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  #43  
Unread 01-21-2012, 10:42 PM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

Where do you get the idea that Aquarius is supposed to be jovial? It's ruled by Saturn!

Both the sidereal and the tropical zodiacs are imaginary divisions of the heavens. The one is not more "accurate" than the other. It seems to me that your posts on this subject are largely based on a rather superficial reading of the symbolism of the signs and planets.
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Unread 01-21-2012, 10:50 PM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

Aquarius is ruled by Saturn, but it does not equal Saturn.

"Traditional sources refer to it as a 'sanguine sign', as all the air signs are, indicating that it is underwritten by healthy attributes of grace, charm and attractiveness, and has no leanings towards crude, violent or unpleasant extremes. Since they tend towards a position of balance, Aquarians are generally seen as popular, polite and sociable members of society. They offer harmonising influences upon groups, especially with their penchant for bringing cool reason to heated debates and thus steering attention away from personal and emotional trysts to communal and intellectual problems that concern and unite us all."

Cancer (not Aquarius) is always considered light, flexible, and jovial. The only part of the Cancer descriptions I agree with are that I can be sensitive to what is going on (but not really in an emotional way, so I'm not sure,) and that I'm conservative with resources (i.e. money.)

Sidereal and tropical astrology say very different things about my chart and the charts of people I know. I find sidereal to portray reality more accurately. Mars in Scorpio can't keep a secret because it's actually in Libra. Saturn in Aries is a hard worker because it's in Pisces.
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  #45  
Unread 01-21-2012, 11:47 PM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

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Originally Posted by Choe View Post
I know that. My geocentric chart makes more sense I think,but still there is NO LOGIC ,how can you use planets of the Solar System and say that the Sun moves around the Earth? It's imaginary astrology, not reality-based, that's what bothers me.
What is it about geocentric astrology that doesn't make sense? I'm not understanding this assertion.

Astrology is the position of the stars relative to the event being charted. The best example of course being a birth, it is the position of the birth on the planet Earth relative to the locations of the stars that determine the layout of the chart. Taking into account the birth position with as exacting coordinate data as possible, gives far more astrological data about the birth itself than it would simply taking the positions of the stars in relation to the Sun at the day and time of birth.

The point of Geocentric is to add a third dimension which previously could not be added in traditional systems due to incomplete cartographic knowledge, that of birth location.

Am I missing something here?

Also an interesting article on House systems that posits Topocentric as the most logical system, well worth a read. I think you'd enjoy this one, Uranian; http://www.astrowisdom.net/articles/...use-system.htm
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  #46  
Unread 01-22-2012, 12:10 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

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Originally Posted by Zonark View Post
What is it about geocentric astrology that doesn't make sense? I'm not understanding this assertion.

Astrology is the position of the stars relative to the event being charted. The best example of course being a birth, it is the position of the birth on the planet Earth relative to the locations of the stars that determine the layout of the chart. Taking into account the birth position with as exacting coordinate data as possible, gives far more astrological data about the birth itself than it would simply taking the positions of the stars in relation to the Sun at the day and time of birth.

The point of Geocentric is to add a third dimension which previously could not be added in traditional systems due to incomplete cartographic knowledge, that of birth location.


Am I missing something here?

Also an interesting article on House systems that posits Topocentric as the most logical system, well worth a read. I think you'd enjoy this one, Uranian; http://www.astrowisdom.net/articles/...use-system.htm
I have no idea what you are saying,and I read it twice!
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  #47  
Unread 01-22-2012, 12:46 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

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I have no idea what you are saying,and I read it twice!


Okay when you make someone's chart, the positions of the planets in the chart, as well as the positions of all the important points are all relative to a single point of reference. In heliocentric this point of reference is the Sun, which means if you were at the center of the Sun and could take a picture of all the planets and stars in what position they were at when you were born, you'd have the data for the Heliocentric chart.

Back in less technologically advanced times, this is the way they had to do it because they didn't even know the Earth was round and had no reliable way to plot your birth position on Earth with the latitude and longitude. What they could do, was calculate the position of the Earth relative to the Sun and use that data.

However once the Earth was mapped out as a three dimensional spherical object, astrologers could start using this new dimension in their calculations. So rather than using a one dimensional point as the axis (the center of the Sun, roughly) they had a point that exists in three dimensional space (the spot on the Earth that you were born). This exponentially increases the variation in data received from a chart because it more accurately charts what the Heavens actually looked like when you were born in relation to where you were born! No longer does your location of birth have to be discounted. Thanks to modern astronomical understanding of our Earth's shape and rotation, astrologers can more accurately determine how the heavens really looked, to you at that moment of birth, not just how they looked from the Sun's perspective.

Make sense?
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  #48  
Unread 01-22-2012, 01:11 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

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Originally Posted by Zonark View Post
Okay when you make someone's chart, the positions of the planets in the chart, as well as the positions of all the important points are all relative to a single point of reference. In heliocentric this point of reference is the Sun, which means if you were at the center of the Sun and could take a picture of all the planets and stars in what position they were at when you were born, you'd have the data for the Heliocentric chart.

Back in less technologically advanced times, this is the way they had to do it because they didn't even know the Earth was round and had no reliable way to plot your birth position on Earth with the latitude and longitude. What they could do, was calculate the position of the Earth relative to the Sun and use that data.

However once the Earth was mapped out as a three dimensional spherical object, astrologers could start using this new dimension in their calculations. So rather than using a one dimensional point as the axis (the center of the Sun, roughly) they had a point that exists in three dimensional space (the spot on the Earth that you were born). This exponentially increases the variation in data received from a chart because it more accurately charts what the Heavens actually looked like when you were born in relation to where you were born! No longer does your location of birth have to be discounted. Thanks to modern astronomical understanding of our Earth's shape and rotation, astrologers can more accurately determine how the heavens really looked, to you at that moment of birth, not just how they looked from the Sun's perspective.

Make sense?
Yes.

However, my point was: How can we have Sun in different signs, when the Sun doesn't rotates in the system of planets we all use.

It's more logical to have Earth in signs,that means where the Earth was when you were born.
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  #49  
Unread 01-22-2012, 01:32 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

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Yes.

However, my point was: How can we have Sun in different signs, when the Sun doesn't rotates in the system of planets we all use.

It's more logical to have Earth in signs,that means where the Earth was when you were born.
Because we are calculating the Sun sign not by the position of the Sun but by the position of the Earth in relation to the Sun.
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Unread 01-22-2012, 01:40 AM
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Re: Sidereal Astrology is More Accurate

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Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian View Post
Aquarius is ruled by Saturn, but it does not equal Saturn.

"Traditional sources refer to it as a 'sanguine sign', as all the air signs are, indicating that it is underwritten by healthy attributes of grace, charm and attractiveness, and has no leanings towards crude, violent or unpleasant extremes. Since they tend towards a position of balance, Aquarians are generally seen as popular, polite and sociable members of society. They offer harmonising influences upon groups, especially with their penchant for bringing cool reason to heated debates and thus steering attention away from personal and emotional trysts to communal and intellectual problems that concern and unite us all."

Cancer (not Aquarius) is always considered light, flexible, and jovial. The only part of the Cancer descriptions I agree with are that I can be sensitive to what is going on (but not really in an emotional way, so I'm not sure,) and that I'm conservative with resources (i.e. money.)

Sidereal and tropical astrology say very different things about my chart and the charts of people I know. I find sidereal to portray reality more accurately. Mars in Scorpio can't keep a secret because it's actually in Libra. Saturn in Aries is a hard worker because it's in Pisces.
I've never read that Cancers are light, flexible, and jovial. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a jolly Cancer Sun that didn't have something else going on in the chart.
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