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  #26  
Unread 07-30-2011, 11:30 AM
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Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

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pisceanfool, if you perceive a personal attack ( which is deeply frowned upon on AW) why not use the report feature for moderators to deal with said person/matter?
above right of post [!] that's what it's here for.....
No I don't mind I just see flaws in things and find personal attacks as weak and futile. I will say you contribute a lot more and that's why i respect you! off topic but i love your signature i think it's great you 'aim' to 'hook' people on astrology ^^

I guess I'm being an antagonist.

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  #27  
Unread 07-30-2011, 11:58 AM
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Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I have the Moon conjunct Neptune. I've said before (and I'll say again) when I was a kid, even before I knew this, even before I'd heard of astrology, I displayed what I consider to be some very Neptunian traits. A strong imagination (I invented whole countries and planets in my back garden with just some free toys out of a cereal packet and a bike tyre to play with), extreme emotional sensitivity and empathy (I'd cry if my sister hit my teddy bear) and very VERY vivid dreams. Now, maybe I'm just describing most kids' experience, but I don't think so - the fact that these experiences are still with me today makes me think it's more than that.
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  #28  
Unread 07-30-2011, 03:46 PM
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Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

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Originally Posted by Inconjunct View Post
Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I have the Moon conjunct Neptune. I've said before (and I'll say again) when I was a kid, even before I knew this, even before I'd heard of astrology, I displayed what I consider to be some very Neptunian traits. A strong imagination (I invented whole countries and planets in my back garden with just some free toys out of a cereal packet and a bike tyre to play with), extreme emotional sensitivity and empathy (I'd cry if my sister hit my teddy bear) and very VERY vivid dreams. Now, maybe I'm just describing most kids' experience, but I don't think so - the fact that these experiences are still with me today makes me think it's more than that.

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about, well said.

Sure, in the charts of people who don't really have inner planets or luminaries aspecting their outers, or the outers on an angle, you probably could omit them and still get a pretty good read on them as a person.

But when it comes to the rest of us, it's essentially chopping off half of our charts, and you won't be able to make a whole lot of sense out of what's left. You'll end up with charts that really don't explain the people in front of you and seem wrong.
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  #29  
Unread 07-30-2011, 06:51 PM
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Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

I do modern astrology, but am starting to read up on traditional astrology. However, this is more because of my interest in astrology's history than due to a belief I will switch "sides." I have not studied Vedic astrology, but have seen it produce some impressive results in chart interpretation. I do not subscribe to some of the religious beliefs on which it is based, so I probably will not practice it, either. I've not studied Chinese astrology, nor some of the other less-known varieties.

But surely the world of astrology is big enough for everyone. To me, this is all a matter of personal preference. Kind of like 3 musicians: one likes to play the harpsichord; one plays the piano; and the third one, an electronic keyboard. Yet they can all play the same tunes, despite the differences in their musical instruments and the dates at which they were invented.

So if you wanna use Pluto, use Pluto. If you don't wanna use Pluto, don't use Pluto. But don't try to force other people into a different kind of astrology by trying to shame them. It doesn't work, and merely comes across as unpleasant.
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  #30  
Unread 07-31-2011, 10:53 AM
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Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

Waybread - well said. Some people are way too sectarian about their particular astrological preferences. I'm interested in all the various schools of thought - at the moment, I'm investigating Uranian astrology while still continuing with my more "traditional" modern astrology course. I believe they all have something to teach us.
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  #31  
Unread 08-02-2011, 02:59 PM
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Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

Outer planets normally generational unless they make an angle to a personal planet or the Ascendant.

I've got Pluto in Libra like everyone else in my generation but it's also conjunct my Ascendant which makes it personal. It also opposes my Sun & Venus(ruler of my Ascendant) in Aries and trines my Mars(ruler of my sun sign Aries).

So Pluto is personal to me in terms of life(Sun), relationships(Venus), action(Mars) and expression(Libra Ascendant).
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  #32  
Unread 08-02-2011, 05:21 PM
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Uranus, Neptune & Pluto are Generational Planets - Discuss

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Originally Posted by dperez3894 View Post
Outer planets normally generational unless they make an angle to a personal planet or the Ascendant.

I've got Pluto in Libra like everyone else in my generation but it's also conjunct my Ascendant which makes it personal. It also opposes my Sun & Venus(ruler of my Ascendant) in Aries and trines my Mars(ruler of my sun sign Aries).

So Pluto is personal to me in terms of life(Sun), relationships(Venus), action(Mars) and expression(Libra Ascendant).
Well put dperez, that makes a lot of commonsense
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  #33  
Unread 08-03-2011, 06:29 AM
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Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
I do modern astrology, but am starting to read up on traditional astrology. However, this is more because of my interest in astrology's history than due to a belief I will switch "sides." I have not studied Vedic astrology, but have seen it produce some impressive results in chart interpretation. I do not subscribe to some of the religious beliefs on which it is based, so I probably will not practice it, either. I've not studied Chinese astrology, nor some of the other less-known varieties.

But surely the world of astrology is big enough for everyone. To me, this is all a matter of personal preference. Kind of like 3 musicians: one likes to play the harpsichord; one plays the piano; and the third one, an electronic keyboard. Yet they can all play the same tunes, despite the differences in their musical instruments and the dates at which they were invented.

So if you wanna use Pluto, use Pluto. If you don't wanna use Pluto, don't use Pluto. But don't try to force other people into a different kind of astrology by trying to shame them. It doesn't work, and merely comes across as unpleasant.

This is it in a nutshell.
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  #34  
Unread 08-03-2011, 06:34 AM
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Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

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Originally Posted by Inconjunct View Post
Waybread - well said. Some people are way too sectarian about their particular astrological preferences. I'm interested in all the various schools of thought - at the moment, I'm investigating Uranian astrology while still continuing with my more "traditional" modern astrology course. I believe they all have something to teach us.
Yessssss loool. I'm really fascinated by Uranian astrology and have absolutely no idea why it hasn't caught on much yet. I remember being given the hasty explanation that it's because the planets in the system aren't 'real'...at which point I mentioned how the angles aren't actual planets either but points in space, just like the Uranians; same for BML and the Vertex, but they're commonly incorporated and seem to work too so why not the Uranians ....at which point people start pulling semantics games and throwing up smokescreens...there's definitely something to Uranian astrology though.
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  #35  
Unread 08-03-2011, 06:35 AM
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Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

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Well put dperez, that makes a lot of commonsense
I...said pretty much the same thing dperez just said, pages ago and you dismissed it. LOL
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  #36  
Unread 08-03-2011, 10:04 PM
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Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

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Originally Posted by Ruka_5 View Post
Yessssss loool. I'm really fascinated by Uranian astrology and have absolutely no idea why it hasn't caught on much yet. I remember being given the hasty explanation that it's because the planets in the system aren't 'real'...at which point I mentioned how the angles aren't actual planets either but points in space, just like the Uranians; same for BML and the Vertex, but they're commonly incorporated and seem to work too so why not the Uranians ....at which point people start pulling semantics games and throwing up smokescreens...there's definitely something to Uranian astrology though.
Uranian is quite complex, which is why it isn't more popular, I suspect. But people do use midpoints which are pure Uranian - when I discovered midpoints through my course, they were a revelation in terms of the way they opened up the birth chart. The trans-neptunians I'm less convinced by, but I'm told they work.
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  #37  
Unread 08-03-2011, 10:35 PM
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Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

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Originally Posted by Inconjunct View Post
Uranian is quite complex, which is why it isn't more popular, I suspect. But people do use midpoints which are pure Uranian - when I discovered midpoints through my course, they were a revelation in terms of the way they opened up the birth chart. The trans-neptunians I'm less convinced by, but I'm told they work.
I actually started a thread on another forum specifically about this and the main feedback I remember getting, is that no one practiced Uranian because they're just points in space and not actual planets. At which point, like I said before, I pointed out a lot of other astrological elements that aren't actual physical bodies, are used on a regular basis and pretty much got the runaround in response.

I absolutely believe the transneptunians work, but that like a lot of other things, they shouldn't be the main focus when interpreting a chart.
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  #38  
Unread 08-03-2011, 11:05 PM
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Uranus, Neptune & Pluto are Generational Planets - Discuss

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Originally Posted by Ruka_5 View Post
I...said pretty much the same thing dperez just said, pages ago and you dismissed it. LOL
What I actually said re: dperez is related to my comments as follows:
In my opinion, the influence of the Outer planets is generational as I have said – and for the reasons I have already stated ie

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
I think it fair to point out to the reader that I did not ask the question and I did not initiate the thread On the contrary, I have made clear statements all along that the outer planets are a generational influence because:
(a)
the outer planets have only recently been discovered - in fact as far as Pluto is concerned it's mostly guesswork because Pluto is just entering the opposition to its discovery degree (22 Cancer) and there are no tried and tested delineations of Pluto in Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces, Aries, Taurus, Gemini - it's all guesswork and experimentation
(b)
Uranus, Neptune and Pluto orbits of the sun are
Uranus 84 years
Neptune 168 years
Pluto 248 years


contrast these orbits with
Mercury 88 days
Venus 225 days
Mars 687 days
Jupiter 12 years
Saturn 30 years


of the entire world population, few experience a Uranus Return, none experience a Neptune Return, none experience a Pluto Return.


[I moved this discussion out of the Vertex thread, where it was going rapidly off-subject from what the OP asked, and onto a new thread devoted exclusively to outer planet discussion. - Moderator]
The thread was then moved and the title changed to the question “Are the Outer Planets Generational or Personal?” and the question is attributed to me, but I am not asking that question, instead I have the opinion that in my view the Outer Planets are Generational –it is the Moderator who chose to place my post below a question I have not asked!!!

if you read what I originally posted, and then read what dperez said, you'll notice that dperez agrees with me in part that the outer planets are generational. dperez adds that the generational Planet Pluto in Libra, because it is conjunct dperez Ascendant makes it personal for dperez … which makes some sense Is that sufficiently clear?

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Originally Posted by dperez3894 View Post
Outer planets normally generational unless they make an angle to a personal planet or the Ascendant. I've got Pluto in Libra like everyone else in my generation but it's also conjunct my Ascendant which makes it personal. It also opposes my Sun & Venus(ruler of my Ascendant) in Aries and trines my Mars(ruler of my sun sign Aries). So Pluto is personal to me in terms of life(Sun), relationships(Venus), action(Mars) and expression(Libra Ascendant).
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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 08-19-2011 at 08:41 PM.
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  #39  
Unread 08-04-2011, 01:13 AM
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Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

It would be great, Ruka and Inconjunct, if you could start a thread on Uranian astrology. I don't know how to work with it, although the Astrodienst free charts pp. at www.astro.com allow you to input its hypothetical planets.

Actually, though, 3 of the angles have some reality. From an earth-centered perspective the ASC is the eastern horizon. If you are born at sunrise, your sun will conjunct it. The DC is the western horizon. If you are born at sunset, your sun will conjunct it. The MC is at the zenith--the highest point overhead. The IC is a little hypothetical because it is under the earth, but it is not hard to imagine it as the opposite of the MC.

We might add to your imaginary points list the Arabic parts, the vertex, and Black Moon Lilith. Then in harmonic charts, the planets' locations are also artificial.
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Unread 08-04-2011, 08:28 AM
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Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

The only really *real* things in astrology are the planets, lets face it - but then is something *not real* because we can't see it or touch it? That brings up all sorts of philosophical nightmares LOL.

The trans-neptunians are described as "energy points" out at the far flung reaches of the solar system, and some of them were identified before astronomers discovered Pluto. Uranian astrologers use them in combination with the traditional planets, in midpoint pictures and solar arc directions.

That's about as far as my knowledge of Uranian goes at the moment, waybread, so starting a thread might not be advisable .
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  #41  
Unread 08-04-2011, 11:20 AM
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Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

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It would be great, Ruka and Inconjunct, if you could start a thread on Uranian astrology. I don't know how to work with it, although the Astrodienst free charts pp. at www.astro.com allow you to input its hypothetical planets.

Actually, though, 3 of the angles have some reality. From an earth-centered perspective the ASC is the eastern horizon. If you are born at sunrise, your sun will conjunct it. The DC is the western horizon. If you are born at sunset, your sun will conjunct it. The MC is at the zenith--the highest point overhead. The IC is a little hypothetical because it is under the earth, but it is not hard to imagine it as the opposite of the MC.

We might add to your imaginary points list the Arabic parts, the vertex, and Black Moon Lilith. Then in harmonic charts, the planets' locations are also artificial.

Actually, you misunderstood me.

The arguments I got about not using the transneptunians were specifically, that they aren't actual physical bodies in space, that they aren't planets. Which, is true. But neither are the angles, the vertex, BML.... when I pointed that out, all I got was a lot of shucking and jiving in response, which I found interesting.
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  #42  
Unread 08-04-2011, 11:22 AM
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Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

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Originally Posted by Inconjunct View Post
The only really *real* things in astrology are the planets, lets face it - but then is something *not real* because we can't see it or touch it? That brings up all sorts of philosophical nightmares LOL.

The trans-neptunians are described as "energy points" out at the far flung reaches of the solar system, and some of them were identified before astronomers discovered Pluto. Uranian astrologers use them in combination with the traditional planets, in midpoint pictures and solar arc directions.

That's about as far as my knowledge of Uranian goes at the moment, waybread, so starting a thread might not be advisable .

...Finally, someone gets what I'm saying, here. LOL
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  #43  
Unread 08-04-2011, 02:30 PM
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Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

I think we're in synch about a few things, actually Ruka. Looking at your chart, we share an MC
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Unread 08-04-2011, 05:08 PM
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Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

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I think we're in synch about a few things, actually Ruka. Looking at your chart, we share an MC

That explains it!
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  #45  
Unread 08-15-2011, 10:47 PM
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Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

The outer planets are both generational and personal. They are most personal when in more personal points or areas of the birth horoscope, but also when making very tight aspects to other planets. Uranus relates to peer group socially, not generation.

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[/U]
On the contrary, I have made clear statements all along that the outer planets are a generational influence because:

(a)
the outer planets have only recently been discovered - in fact as far as Pluto is concerned it's mostly guesswork because Pluto is just entering the opposition to its discovery degree (22 Cancer) and there are no tried and tested delineations of Pluto in Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces, Aries, Taurus, Gemini - it's all guesswork and experimentation
Utter nonsense. First this reasoning creates no support whatsoever for Pluto and outer planets being generational (only). Secondly, we don't need to watch the action 'live' in order to understand what Pluto 'does.' Studious astrologers spend a good deal of time making use of modern computerized ephemerides to research Pluto's (or any planets') movements and the coinciding events and trends in history. This is basic good astrology.
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  #46  
Unread 08-16-2011, 12:06 AM
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Uranus, Neptune & Pluto are Generational Planets - Discuss

one comment has been quoted out of context so here is my post in its entirety
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
I think it fair to point out to the reader that I did not ask the question and I did not initiate the thread
On the contrary, I have made clear statements all along that the outer planets are a generational influence because:
(a)
the outer planets have only recently been discovered - in fact as far as Pluto is concerned it's mostly guesswork because Pluto is just entering the opposition to its discovery degree (22 Cancer) and there are no tried and tested delineations of Pluto in Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces, Aries, Taurus, Gemini - it's all guesswork and experimentation
(b)
Uranus, Neptune and Pluto orbits of the sun are
Uranus 84 years
Neptune 168 years
Pluto 248 years
contrast these orbits with
Mercury 88 days
Venus 225 days
Mars 687 days
Jupiter 12 years
Saturn 30 years
of the entire world population, few experience a Uranus Return, none experience a Neptune Return, none experience a Pluto Return.
[I moved this discussion out of the Vertex thread, where it was going rapidly off-subject from what the OP asked, and onto a new thread devoted exclusively to outer planet discussion. - Moderator]
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Originally Posted by Kannon View Post
The outer planets are both generational and personal. They are most personal when in more personal points or areas of the birth horoscope, but also when making very tight aspects to other planets..
Having a cake and eating it too

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kannon View Post
Uranus relates to peer group socially, not generation.
Utter nonsense. First this reasoning creates no support whatsoever for Pluto and outer planets being generational (only). Secondly, we don't need to watch the action 'live' in order to understand what Pluto 'does.' Studious astrologers spend a good deal of time making use of modern computerized ephemerides to research Pluto's (or any planets') movements and the coinciding events and trends in history. This is basic good astrology.
Neither 'you' nor 'we' can watch events that have already occurred. One can only surmise. i.e therefore it is guesswork.

You neglected to quote me when I said that it is obvious that of the entire world population, few experience a Uranus Return, none experience a Neptune Return, none experience a Pluto Return... however many people experience Returns of the seven visible planets

You are entitled to your own opinion that my words are 'rubbish'! I have my opinion, especially regarding manners. 'Utter rubbish' is a meaningless term. You have a differing opinion therefore obviously I differ with you. Simple, no need to mention 'rubbish' whether 'utter' or no
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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 08-19-2011 at 08:41 PM.
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Unread 08-16-2011, 12:14 AM
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Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

having a uranus or neptune or pluto return is irrelevent to using these planets.

Quote:
you cannot watch events that have already occurred. You can only surmise. i.e therefore it is guesswork.
it's not guesswork at all and lots of lots of published astrologers use the modern planets to great effect. I simply think you are missing and overlooking valuable astrological material and would help in delinating charts..
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  #48  
Unread 08-16-2011, 12:25 AM
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Uranus, Neptune & Pluto are Generational Planets - Discuss

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Originally Posted by astrologer50 View Post
having a uranus or neptune or pluto return is irrelevent to using these planets. it's not guesswork at all and lots of lots of published astrologers use the modern planets to great effect. I simply think you are missing and overlooking valuable astrological material and would help in delinating charts..
Modern Astrology is entirely dependent upon Traditional/Ancient astrology upon which it is founded and without which it could not function. Whereas Traditional Astrology and Ancient Astrology are entirely independent of Modern Astrology. You are the one who is overlooking valuable astrological material that would help you in delineating charts, not I

As to whether "a Uranus, Neptune or Pluto return is irrelevant to using these planets" is easy to say because quite simply neither you nor anyone for that matter shall experience either a Neptune or a Pluto return
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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 08-19-2011 at 08:42 PM.
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Unread 08-16-2011, 08:51 AM
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Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Modern Astrology is entirely dependent upon Traditional/Ancient astrology upon which it is founded and without which it could not function. Whereas Traditional Astrology and Ancient Astrology are entirely independent of Modern Astrology. You are the one who is overlooking valuable astrological material that would help you in delineating charts, not I

As to whether "a Uranus, Neptune or Pluto return is irrelevant to using these planets" is easy to say because quite simply neither you nor anyone for that matter shall experience either a Neptune or a Pluto return
You're simply *missing the point*... It doesn't MATTER if uranus neptune and pluto don't have a return This does not invalidate their significance!

Last edited by astrologer50; 08-16-2011 at 06:18 PM.
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Unread 08-16-2011, 05:16 PM
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wilsontc wilsontc is offline
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what about squares and oppostions? to Jupiter

Jupiter,

You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
...whether "a Uranus, Neptune or Pluto return is irrelevant to using these planets" is easy to say because quite simply neither you nor anyone for that matter shall experience either a Neptune or a Pluto return
I may be missing the point here. If you mean (as a50 suggests in her posting) that the lack of a return in a birth chart indicates Uranus, Neptune, or Pluto are not personal or not "relevant", then I think there are other things to look at. Particularly with the outer planets, look at the squares and oppositions. When Uranus, Neptune, or Pluto square one of the four points in the chart (Ascendant, Descendant, Midheaven, and IC), there usually is a STRONG effect. This is even stronger when Uranus, Neptune, or Pluto conjunct a point. Also when Uranus, Neptune, or Pluto square a personal planet (Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, or Mars) there can be a very strong personal effect.

Or maybe your comment on the outer planets not having planetary returns is making a different point?

Confused,

Tim
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Last edited by wilsontc; 08-16-2011 at 05:59 PM.
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