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Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


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  #1  
Unread 06-11-2010, 05:35 AM
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Question Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

A simple but very crucial question is this ;

How could we know the accurate time of our birth??

Our parents told us BUT do they know the exact time??

While our mothers are in pain , breathing and pushing to bring us to light do they look at the clock?? No they do not!!!!

Does the doctor look?? No he doesn't, he's job is to hold the baby's head.

Until baby gets out of momy's body and everyone be sure that the baby is ok noone watches the clock. Am i wrong?

And which is the right moment to start counding our life on earth? The moment that the head has came out, the moment that the whole body came out or the moment we had been conceived by our parents?? (Some say that our soul enters the fetal body on the 4th month of pregnancy)

How sure can we be that our parents has told us the exact time?

Should we cast more than one charts using defferent time? 1-2 minuits back and 1-2 minutes forth?

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Last edited by asteroid; 06-11-2010 at 08:12 AM.
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Unread 06-11-2010, 08:26 AM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

Asteroid,
Most people use the time that the hospital recorded the birth.It will be on your birth certificate. I would never accept a time given by a mother as we know how preoccupied they would be with giving birth!
Hospitals where I live charge a very small fee to provide the info-it's worth it!
Lilly
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Unread 06-11-2010, 10:12 AM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

Yes, I know your pain! It is very difficult! Even after getting a hospital time, transits never seemed to be on key, and I wasn't totally sure about the AC. It's at the end 27d. My sister said on the other day that she's convinced I do not have the AC the hospital time gives. She said I should not accept it. Another astrologer on here who doesn't live that far from me said that their hospital time was about 6 hours off what his/her entire family agreed upon...and every member of my family who were near my birth all have a slightly different time.

Yes, I know this mess! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrr
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Unread 06-11-2010, 12:54 PM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

Quote:
Originally Posted by lillyjgc View Post
Asteroid,
Most people use the time that the hospital recorded the birth.It will be on your birth certificate. I would never accept a time given by a mother as we know how preoccupied they would be with giving birth!
Hospitals where I live charge a very small fee to provide the info-it's worth it!
Lilly

Dear Lilly ,

You are right
However not all the hospitals are so well organised, even the best ones. Here in Greece only the last few years write down the birth time in the certificates. For the rest of us born before 90's it is unlikely to be sure the accurate one. Most of my firends don't know even the exact hour not just the miniuts.... i don't mension the seconds hahaha

But i do not trust hospitals eather if they write it down or not!!!

So,

What i am asking is a suggestion , how we could handle with this and how could our chart and our conclusion on it could be affected???


Thank u anyway for your reply
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Unread 06-11-2010, 12:59 PM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove View Post
Yes, I know your pain! It is very difficult! Even after getting a hospital time, transits never seemed to be on key, and I wasn't totally sure about the AC. It's at the end 27d. My sister said on the other day that she's convinced I do not have the AC the hospital time gives. She said I should not accept it. Another astrologer on here who doesn't live that far from me said that their hospital time was about 6 hours off what his/her entire family agreed upon...and every member of my family who were near my birth all have a slightly different time.

Yes, I know this mess! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrr

You better trust your familly...........
our countries have so much in common in matters of organization
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Unread 06-11-2010, 03:42 PM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

Quote:
Originally Posted by asteroid
A simple but very crucial question is this ;

How could we know the accurate time of our birth??

Our parents told us BUT do they know the exact time??

While our mothers are in pain , breathing and pushing to bring us to light do they look at the clock?? No they do not!!!!
My birth time is not recorded on my birth certificate due to the fact that I was born at Christ Hospital. Many Catholic and other religious based hospitals did not record birth times because of their stance against astrology.

My mother and grandmother told me my birth-time, and it is accurate to within a few seconds of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asteroid
Does the doctor look?? No he doesn't, he's job is to hold the baby's head.

Until baby gets out of momy's body and everyone be sure that the baby is ok noone watches the clock. Am i wrong?
Yes, you're wrong. Typical policy around the world for the last several decades is for two people to call the birth time, just as two people call the time of death. Most modern hospitals use a fetal monitor and there is a nurse staring at it, and it displays the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asteroid
And which is the right moment to start counding our life on earth? The moment that the head has came out, the moment that the whole body came out or the moment we had been conceived by our parents?? (Some say that our soul enters the fetal body on the 4th month of pregnancy)
None of the above. It's first breath.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asteroid
How sure can we be that our parents has told us the exact time?
Look at transits, progressions and directions for significant events. If you lack the objectivity to decide which events are significant and which are not, ask someone who is objective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asteroid
Should we cast more than one charts using defferent time? 1-2 minuits back and 1-2 minutes forth?
No, an experienced astrologer can just eyeball the chart.

All planets have a certain movement rate while transiting, while progressing and while directing.

Not all events will show exact aspects, but within one degree of arc is reasonable.
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Unread 06-11-2010, 04:06 PM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

My experience in this subject is that you must not trust your parents or the exact time that hospital gave you. I suggest to rectify your chart upon your life. I do that starting by job interests, appearance, career, financials etc. In Carol's Rushman book I read that when Mars hit the Asc always gives you a small accident. This is the true degree of your Asc. I found that my Asc had an inclination a few minutes of degree.
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Unread 06-11-2010, 05:25 PM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

Bob,
Quote:
Yes, you're wrong. Typical policy around the world for the last several decades is for two people to call the birth time, just as two people call the time of death. Most modern hospitals use a fetal monitor and there is a nurse staring at it, and it displays the time.
I tend to agree with you. It's baby first breath. In UK it's not common pracits to use fetal monitors at all and it's bit more lacksidaisiclye (if this is the correct word) If you are a twin or born it Scotland birth time is recorded though. Generally, espec since computers came in, the time is recorded and we are all guilty of rounding things up. I did with my children, one was born 3.50am and 4.42am so I said one was born quarter to four and the other quarter to five----

The best and most common use of rectifying a birth time is solar arcs --

Solar arcs are really simple, especially for beginners, just move the Angles, Asc, Desc, MC, IC 1' for each year of your life onto planets and vice versa. Not just used for rectification either. Under age 12 though these interpretations are directed towards family changes, maybe relocation, job changes, illnesses, additions to family etc. Another example is my Pluto is 28' Leo in 7th house and my Uranus is 3' Leo in same house to subtract these and you get age 25. That year my then husband and I had an almighty explosion (Uranus) and transformation (Pluto) of that marriage that started the demise and ultimate ending thereof....

Further research on solar arcs try these threads.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12024&highlight=solar+arcs
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12958&highlight=solar+arcs
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6691&highlight=solar+arcs
http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/rectification.html
http://www.frankstar.com/solararc.htm
http://thezodiac.com/arcs.htm
http://www.donmc.com/Comparing%20Transits%20and%20Solar%20Arcs%20II.htm
http://en.mimi.hu/astrology/solar_arc_directions.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrological_progression



Rectification of birth time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW0G2S2Ti4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYMX9X2C1BQ&NR=1
· Transiting Pluto square, conj opp Asc, Desc, MC, IC
· If under 12’ when it conj an Angle then their age was under age 12 it’s parents adjustments. A death, change within father’s work, a separation, remarriage.
· Adults or teens, 1st job, identity transformation MC.
· Pluto conj Desc = death, health concerns, geographic, significant relationship or break up, but has to be ‘life transforming’
· Also try transiting Neptune, something dissolving, disappearing, confusing etc.
· Timings of transits… is it the 1st hit? More often it’s the middle retrograde hit… but could be the last direct hit also. 1’ =4minutes in time.
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Unread 06-11-2010, 07:49 PM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

I'm working on transiting Mars at the minute, and one time looked promising. But then I took to tansiting Saturn (conjunct AC) which presents another. Maybe give them a go too?
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Unread 06-12-2010, 12:31 AM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

Quote:
Originally Posted by docker View Post
My experience in this subject is that you must not trust your parents or the exact time that hospital gave you. I suggest to rectify your chart upon your life. I do that starting by job interests, appearance, career, financials etc. In Carol's Rushman book I read that when Mars hit the Asc always gives you a small accident. This is the true degree of your Asc. I found that my Asc had an inclination a few minutes of degree.
Docker is right. You don't need to stress over this question. An accurate birth chart does not depend completely on an exactly accurate time of birth. I can get accurate birth charts more often than the avg astrologer even if I am given only a general time of day, say, "afternoon." I have made verification/rectification my specialty and it involves the kinds of things that Docker just mentioned. There is a way to not only verify the correct signs are over the Asc/MC, but the correct degree.
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Unread 06-12-2010, 12:47 AM
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Wink Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

Thank u all guys,

I will try verification hoping that i will make it out!!!!!
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Unread 06-12-2010, 04:02 PM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

Quote:
Originally Posted by astrologer50 View Post
. . .
Rectification of birth time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW0G2S2Ti4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYMX9X2C1BQ&NR=1
· Transiting Pluto square, conj opp Asc, Desc, MC, IC
· If under 12’ when it conj an Angle then their age was under age 12 it’s parents adjustments. A death, change within father’s work, a separation, remarriage.
· Adults or teens, 1st job, identity transformation MC.
· Pluto conj Desc = death, health concerns, geographic, significant relationship or break up, but has to be ‘life transforming’
· Also try transiting Neptune, something dissolving, disappearing, confusing etc.
· Timings of transits… is it the 1st hit? More often it’s the middle retrograde hit… but could be the last direct hit also. 1’ =4minutes in time.

I walked out on my x on 10/27/2007 and that day I had Mars 1* past the DSC and Nep directly opposite Sun and Merc 1*retro past the MC.

Would you all say to rectify the chart I would move those signs directly onto the angle?
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Unread 06-12-2010, 04:31 PM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

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Originally Posted by Teb View Post
I walked out on my x on 10/27/2007 and that day I had Mars 1* past the DSC and Nep directly opposite Sun and Merc 1*retro past the MC.

Would you all say to rectify the chart I would move those signs directly onto the angle?
Maybe. What was the Moon doing? For transiting charts, the Moon is often the timer, as it will typically make a near exact aspect.

If you use Solar Arcs, make sure you're using the correct arc rate.

If you stand on the Equator facing East on the Spring Equinox, the Sun will rise directly in front of you. Every day after that, the Sun will appear to rise slight farther to the left (North), until one day the Sun appears to stand-still. That is the Solstice, or the Sun's Northing Point.

From that day on, the Sun will appear to rise slightly to the right (South), until it reaches the Equator on the Autumn Equinox, and then continue moving right until it reaches the Solstice, or the Sun's Southing Point.

The point being the Sun's arc isn't the same everywhere on Earth. Depending on the season you were born (Spring/Summer or Fall/Winter) and how far North/South of the Equator, the Solar Arc can range between 54' to 1*06' of arc.

My Solar Arc is slightly slow and moves at the rate of 57' of arc per year. That isn't necessarily a big deal, and many astrologers ignore it, but for someone over the age of 30 years whose arc is 1*01', those extra minutes of arc add up, so if your doing a chart for some aged 50, and you're just doing an eye-ball Solar Arc and adding 1*, the, um, "timing" could possibly be off by as much as 50' or more.

I think what we're seeing here is some bizarre obsession or fixation to have the transits and what not match exactly. Astrology is not for the anal retentive or the obsessive-compulsive.

You'll waste a lot of time for nothing, because every event in your life is not going to match every transit, progression or arc exactly.
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Unread 06-12-2010, 04:40 PM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

I was born in Chicago - Aug. 16th, 1949. It was DST-- but I have been told that the Chicago many hospitals recorded birthtime CST ( central standard time)-- so on my birth certificate it says 1:40 AM CST-- I have always assumed that it was really 1:40 DST-- but I don't know???? It changes my ascendant from 29-50 Gemini, to 15 Cancer- so it's a pretty big deal. Is there any way to easily rectifly this? I have always gone with the Gemini asc., but???
Thanks to anyone who can help me with this. Both of my parents are dead and the hospital is no more, so-- I'm left alone with this one.
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Unread 06-12-2010, 04:47 PM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

bob,
Quote:
I think what we're seeing here is some bizarre obsession or fixation to have the transits and what not match exactly. Astrology is not for the anal retentive or the obsessive-compulsive.

You'll waste a lot of time for nothing, because every event in your life is not going to match every transit, progression or arc exactly.
Well said, I quite agree

Problem is some people expect all transits to create *outer events* and is usually MC and/or Asc that do this -- most other transits happen internally, between the *ears*

Lastly, for something 'major' to happen, it should also be reflected in your transits, progressions and possibly solar arcs. So don't ignore these methods in favour of JUST transits

Last edited by astrologer50; 06-12-2010 at 04:50 PM.
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Unread 06-12-2010, 04:50 PM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

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Originally Posted by 23Leo View Post
I was born in Chicago - Aug. 16th, 1949. It was DST-- but I have been told that the Chicago many hospitals recorded birthtime CST ( central standard time)-- so on my birth certificate it says 1:40 AM CST-- I have always assumed that it was really 1:40 DST-- but I don't know???? It changes my ascendant from 29-50 Gemini, to 15 Cancer- so it's a pretty big deal. Is there any way to easily rectifly this? I have always gone with the Gemini asc., but???
Thanks to anyone who can help me with this. Both of my parents are dead and the hospital is no more, so-- I'm left alone with this one.
There are no shortcuts in this, it's research, research and more research unfortunately. Do you identify with Cancer Asc traits? are you sensitive, moody and strongly attached to family and home? Gemini Asc quite often have had hard childhood and felt like square peg in round whole. Also Gemini are what I call the 'why' children, very inquisitive restless procrastinating and indecisive. What are you like at making decisions? cos gemini tends to project and get other people to make them for them.
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Unread 06-12-2010, 07:57 PM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post

...

I think what we're seeing here is some bizarre obsession or fixation to have the transits and what not match exactly. Astrology is not for the anal retentive or the obsessive-compulsive.

You'll waste a lot of time for nothing, because every event in your life is not going to match every transit, progression or arc exactly.
Fair enough, that's reasonable. But are you saying we don't use transits to verify birth time? I'm not trying to annoy anyone - I hate when people do that. I'm simply confused, where does it begin, and where does it end? If you could sum up the process of verification for those of us (not necessarily anal retentive, but have family members who ALL dispute time of birth, and dispute hospital-given times) what would it be? Assuming that this thread is supposed to enlighten, educate and help teach...

Last edited by byjove; 06-12-2010 at 08:03 PM. Reason: Grammar Errors
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Unread 06-12-2010, 08:02 PM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

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Originally Posted by astrologer50 View Post
There are no shortcuts in this, it's research, research and more research unfortunately. Do you identify with Cancer Asc traits? are you sensitive, moody and strongly attached to family and home? Gemini Asc quite often have had hard childhood and felt like square peg in round whole. Also Gemini are what I call the 'why' children, very inquisitive restless procrastinating and indecisive. What are you like at making decisions? cos gemini tends to project and get other people to make them for them.
I'm afraid I've discovered I'm no longer objective on this matter; I've been at this for so long...I'm numb. And I asked both my sisters this and one said Cancer Rising and the other Leo...
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Unread 06-12-2010, 08:19 PM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

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Originally Posted by byjove View Post
Fair enough, that's reasonable. But are you saying we don't use transits to verify birth time? I'm not trying to annoy anyone - I hate when people do that. I'm simply confused, where does it begin, and where does it end? If you could sum up the process of verification for those of us (not necessarily anal retentive, but have family members who ALL dispute time of birth, and dispute hospital-given times) what would it be? Assuming that this thread is supposed to enlighten, educate and help teach...

yes.....

a simle examble step to step it would be very helpfull for nivce, if it is posible: love:
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Unread 06-12-2010, 09:11 PM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

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I'm afraid I've discovered I'm no longer objective on this matter; I've been at this for so long...I'm numb. And I asked both my sisters this and one said Cancer Rising and the other Leo...
I still stand by T Mars and T mercury over Asc and MC here to make diary notes. solar arcs are most effective in childhood, like bob says after age 30ish the arc is not as uniform depending on lat & long....
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Unread 06-13-2010, 05:04 AM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

Quote:
Originally Posted by 23Leo
It was DST-- but I have been told that the Chicago many hospitals recorded birthtime CST
Not "many" hospitals, all hospitals in Illinois. It was a state law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 23Leo
and the hospital is no more
Really, that's interesting because Billary Clinton was born in a Chicago hospital that was shut down due to Medicaid/Medicare fraud in the 1980s or 1990s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove
But are you saying we don't use transits to verify birth time? I'm not trying to annoy anyone - I hate when people do that. I'm simply confused, where does it begin, and where does it end?
I understand, I'm just saying don't expect the aspects to be exact down to the minute of arc. Some people will have exact aspects, but for others 1 - 2 degrees is the best that it will ever be, no matter how many years you spend twiddling with the chart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove
If you could sum up the process of verification for those of us (not necessarily anal retentive, but have family members who ALL dispute time of birth, and dispute hospital-given times) what would it be? Assuming that this thread is supposed to enlighten, educate and help teach...
I abandoned the traditional method of chart rectification in favor of Age Harmonics, but regardless, you still need at least 6 meaningful events, and those are typically physical (as opposed to mental events).

Divorce of parents, death of grandparent, parent, sibling, child, your marriage(s), divorce(s), job termination(s) (getting fired, not quitting), lawsuits (the day judgment is rendered or the case dismissed), incarceration of you, parent, spouse, child, birth of your child(ren) or hospitalization or serious accident.

You're going to need software to help. SolarFire allows for easy chart rectification, and you can even rectify charts using Kepler.

If you're looking for free ware, the program I used for years (and still use) is Astro123 or AstroWin. I just ignore the interpretations and the cosmodyne magical touchy-feely ray of church light stuff.

For each of your significant events, set up a bi-wheel for transits and check each event, then a tri-wheel with transits and progressions and check each event, then a bi-wheel with Arcs and check each event.

If you aren't in the ball-park, adjust the birth time accordingly so they do match up as best as possible.

In your case, take the two claimed birth times that are farthest apart, and using transits see how the events match up, then adjust the time, and check your progressions and transits to progressions, then check your Arcs.

It's a very long and tedious process (that's why you should look at transits first). Just make sure you're reading the chart right. Marriage to a foreigner involves what house ruler? 9th. Death of a grandparent? 7th. Death of a sibling? 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, depending on birth order. Death of a child? 5th, 9th, 1st, depending on birth order. Second spouse? 9th. Third spouse? 11th. Death of your father's brother (your uncle) assuming you were close and it impacted you, would be the 3rd House from your father's house which would be the 12th, 2nd, 8th or 6th assuming your father is the 10th and his brother was older or younger.

Remember, especially with deaths, the 8th House is involved, but not necessarily your 8th House. The death of a grandparent is the 2nd House (the 8th house from the 7th House).
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Unread 06-13-2010, 12:03 PM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

OK, the above information I think is actually quite helpful and I understand far better. Thanks Bob.

And I think we're finally making progress on the thread.
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Unread 06-13-2010, 01:33 PM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

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yes.....

a simle examble step to step it would be very helpfull for nivce, if it is posible: love:
P.s. Astroid, look out for extremely important transits in your chart, preferably upcoming, which either will or won't be on target...my secret ace in the hole is TR Uranus and Jupiter retrograding over natal Mercury conjunct MC in Pisces this September (EXACT on the current proposed day of departure too)...the retrograde being the 'bang', the bullet out of the gun...

I should be moving abroad to study for a year. It either will happen, or it won't. Hopefully that's the change that the transits suggest. A number of events over the last few months have conspired to help me in this endeavor, and I've watched each obstable being removed...

Last edited by byjove; 01-21-2012 at 02:02 AM.
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  #24  
Unread 06-13-2010, 09:27 PM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

Asteroid,

The first thing you need to do is start by verifying that the Asc sign is correct. Consider the surrounding signs, including ones two signs back. Be absolutely sure the Asc sign is correct or do not proceed any further. Until you do that nothing else matters, not methodology or orbs or anything. If you want to verify your Asc sign/degree you must not make assumptions that the sign itself is correct as is. Start with no assumptions and be thorough.
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Unread 06-13-2010, 09:39 PM
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Re: Accurate time of birth/ Is It posible to know????

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove View Post
P.s. Astroid, look out for extremely important transits in your chart, preferably upcoming, which either will or won't be on target...my secret ace in the hole is TR Uranus and Jupiter retrograding over natal Mercury conjunct MC in Pisces this September (EXACT on the current proposed day of departure too)...the retrograde being the 'bang', the bullet out of the gun...

I should be moving abroad to study for a year. It either will happen, or it won't. Hopefully that's the change that the transits suggest. A number of events over the last few months have conspired to help me in this endeavor, and I've watched each obstable being removed...
Thank uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu i will test it
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