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  #51  
Unread 07-17-2019, 01:52 PM
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I'm hearing this strange story about Panini for the first time. It may be true, may not be true but like a myth there is an underlying meaning which I don't think need to be explained. Someone who completely believes in deterministic universe might say Panini was supposed to cut a line in his palm and there is no way to counter argue with such a statement except through personal experience. I don't hold the position that universe is completely deterministic we are machines but fate and free will together play out the dynamics, in traditional fate has a lot of power to influence events while in modern free will has more power. This statement I believe to be completely true.
No question that Trad is more fate-oriented. It's best described as "pessimistic realism".

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  #52  
Unread 07-17-2019, 02:09 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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I have predicted the future too! Quite a few times. It actually gave me a better understanding. I was learning to read cards and people kept asking me about the future, I was quite scared ,esp the first few times after things happened the exact way cards showed me. I see the future sort of as the outcome of certain decision we made on a deeper level or work we put in.

Understanding that a particular decision caused few things to happen is possible only in hind sight after the events have passed. As humans are wired to find meaning in everything and from there console themselves when things turn to be real bad. There is a danger in it as humans are not very intelligent to pin point the exact reason for something dreadful that had happened to them with 100% accuracy considering several other factors are always at play.

And if you know your future and you do not take any effort to change it either you unconsciouly know that you can't override fate or you think you can handle whatever happens which depends on your level of awareness.


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Einstein believed that all has happened already from the big bang to the destruction of our kind and earth, and our brains are just slowing it down to process it. Jung believes that astrology only shows our characters but not our fate, which o believe too.

Not a fan of Einstein, find him to be grossly overrated one. I read that he was influenced by the works of Blavatsky. I find there is some element of truth in it as Blavatsky's works explain so many things from creation to complex concepts in science.

A big fan of Jung and I think what he said that our unconscious becomes our fate if we don't pay attention to it and work with it is definitely valid for people with higher levels of awareness who are undisturbed by whatever happens in their lives.

Last edited by lostinstars; 07-17-2019 at 02:18 PM.
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  #53  
Unread 07-17-2019, 02:14 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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No question that Trad is more fate-oriented. It's best described as "pessimistic realism".

No doubt in that as traditional astrology falls under Saturn's dominion as every other ancient thing is and people wonder why it is pessimistic realism.
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  #54  
Unread 07-17-2019, 02:22 PM
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No doubt in that as traditional astrology falls under Saturn's dominion as every other ancient thing is and people wonder why it is pessimistic realism.
The Greco-Roman Age was under Zeus/Jupiter's dominion. In fact, the ancient Greeks believed Cronos/Saturn had been defeated and imprisoned within the Earth.
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  #55  
Unread 07-17-2019, 02:24 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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The Greco-Roman Age was under Zeus/Jupiter's dominion. In fact, the ancient Greeks believed Cronos/Saturn had been defeated and imprisoned within the Earth.

Yes indeed and Saturn is biding time to come back to his former glory.
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  #56  
Unread 07-17-2019, 02:31 PM
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All right, here's the prime example: The Aquarian Age. Modernists believe it will be ruled by upbeat, quirky, rule-breaking Uranian influence, whereby the sky's the limit. Traditionalists have the gloomy opinion that Saturn will rule it, ushering in an Age of doom and gloom.
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Unread 07-17-2019, 02:41 PM
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Yes indeed and Saturn is biding time to come back to his former glory.
You haven't read my (very) Modernistic opinion that the famous sidereal Age of Pisces, ruled by Neptune, is concurrent with a tropical Age of Capricorn, Saturn-ruled and nearing its amped-up ending. The sidereal is more spiritual in nature, the tropical is more mundane. Saturn, in that view, is setting the standard for what's real and what's imaginary, and is responsible for the hegemony of modern materialistic science.
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Unread 07-17-2019, 02:48 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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All right, here's the prime example: The Aquarian Age. Modernists believe it will be ruled by upbeat, quirky, rule-breaking Uranian influence, whereby the sky's the limit.. Traditionalists have the gloomy opinion that Saturn will rule it, ushering in an Age of doom and gloom.

Again yes and I believe Saturn's glory will be back. Even though he is a big cruel giant $%^*head and he makes me miserable, I wish I had such power to destroy things on massive scale.
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Unread 07-17-2019, 02:48 PM
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Yes indeed and Saturn is biding time to come back to his former glory.
Do you see Aquarius as ruled by Uranian influence, or Saturnian, or both? Also, do you believe in astrological Ages of any sort?
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Unread 07-17-2019, 02:53 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Understanding that a particular decision caused few things to happen is possible only in hind sight after the events have passed. As humans are wired to find meaning in everything and from there console themselves when things turn to be real bad. There is a danger in it as humans are not very intelligent to pin point the exact reason for something dreadful that had happened to them with 100% accuracy considering several other factors are always at play.

And if you know your future and you do not take any effort to change it either you unconsciouly know that you can't override fate or you think you can handle whatever happens which depends on your level of awareness.

Not a fan of Einstein, find him to be grossly overrated one.
I read that he was influenced by the works of Blavatsky.
I find there is some element of truth in it
as Blavatsky's works explain so many things
from creation to complex concepts in science.

A big fan of Jung and I think what he said that our unconscious becomes our fate if we don't pay attention to it and work with it is definitely valid for people with higher levels of awareness who are undisturbed by whatever happens in their lives.
Physics that challenges Einstein
- why Einstein was wrong about relativity
https://www.newscientist.com/round-u...ging-einstein/
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  #61  
Unread 07-17-2019, 03:04 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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You haven't read my (very) Modernistic opinion that the famous sidereal Age of Pisces, ruled by Neptune, is concurrent with a tropical Age of Capricorn, Saturn-ruled and nearing its amped-up ending. The sidereal is more spiritual in nature, the tropical is more mundane. Saturn, in that view, is setting the standard for what's real and what's imaginary, and is responsible for the hegemony of modern materialistic science.
I read your earlier post but don't know what other opinion you are talking about. And what exactly you mean by concurrent? Of course Saturn is responsible for everything we experience and it is even claimed that all the great things that have advanced humankind (probably by melancholics) are because of only one planet Saturn. Reasons could be anything but people with strong Saturn are forced to focus on one thing till they acquire mastery and mastery takes time like years and decades, astrology, alchemy, magic, anything that takes time has to be dealt with Saturn's discipline and growth.
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Unread 07-17-2019, 03:08 PM
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I read your earlier post but don't know what other opinion you are talking about. And what exactly you mean by concurrent? Of course Saturn is responsible for everything we experience and it is even claimed that all the great things that have advanced humankind (probably by melancholics) are because of only one planet Saturn. Reasons could be anything but people with strong Saturn are forced to focus on one thing till they acquire mastery and mastery takes time like years and decades, astrology, alchemy, magic, anything that takes time has to be dealt with Saturn's discipline and growth.
The problem is those who can't handle Saturn's relentless, driving influence, and become monsters in human form. They rule the world, not the wise ones.
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Unread 07-17-2019, 03:11 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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I read your earlier post but don't know what other opinion you are talking about. And what exactly you mean by concurrent? Of course Saturn is responsible for everything we experience and it is even claimed that all the great things that have advanced humankind (probably by melancholics) are because of only one planet Saturn. Reasons could be anything but people with strong Saturn are forced to focus on one thing till they acquire mastery and mastery takes time like years and decades, astrology, alchemy, magic, anything that takes time has to be dealt with Saturn's discipline and growth.
PREVIOUSLY DISCUSSED AT Https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...571#post641571

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Hm...I thought Tropical astrologers would be happy to know they can have their own version of the Aquarian Age--one that actually moves through the Tropical chart. After posting a method that makes it possible in the R&D forum, I expected responses, both positive and negative, but that hasn't been the case. Actually, I'm getting the impression that people have lost faith in the promise of the Aquarian Age altogether; I get that--it's definitely a slow train coming, and Future Vision is a rare ability. Also, after the "Mayan Calendar" prophecy, which had so much going for it, failed to materialize any discernable results, the Aquarian Age prophecy lost some credibility as a result. At this point in time, we're still immersed in the "old" Age preceding the Aquarian, whether it be the Sidereal Age of the lower Piscean fish (the Goatfish, Capricorn) supported by it's fellow Earth-sign Virgo, or the Tropical Age of Capricorn itself. Sort of like living in a cave with electric lights, and feeling as though it's the only version of Reality that can ever be.
Contentious aspects of the astrological ages

Definitive details on the astrological ages are lacking, and consequently most details available about the astrological ages are disputed. The 20th century British astrologer Charles Carter stated that
"It is probable that there is no branch of Astrology upon which more nonsense has been poured forth than the doctrine of the precession of the equinoxes." (precession of the equinoxes as the root cause of the astrological ages)
In 2000 Neil Spencer in his book True as the Stars Above expressed a similar opinion about the astrological ages. Spencer singles out the astrological ages as being "fuzzy", "speculative" and least defined area of astrological lore. Derek and Julia Parker claim that it is impossible to state the exact date for the start of any astrological age and acknowledge that many astrologers believe the Age of Aquarius has arrived while many claim the world is at the end of the Age of Pisces.
Ray Grasse states in Signs of the Times - Unlocking the Symbolic Language of World Events that "there is considerable dispute over the exact starting and ending times for the different Great Ages." Paul Wright in The Great Ages and Other Astrological Cycles believes that much of the uncertainty related to the astrological ages is because many astrologers have a poor understanding of the meaning of the astrological symbolism and "even poorer historical knowledge"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrological_age
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  #64  
Unread 07-17-2019, 03:13 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Do you see Aquarius as ruled by Uranian influence, or Saturnian, or both? Also, do you believe in astrological Ages of any sort?

I see it as both. Old and new exist together, just like how life and death exist simulatenously. We can't be excessively joyous and be blind to the decay and death. In the olden days across many cultures death was celebrated, to me that is homage to Saturn. Just because people stopped celebrating death everywhere does not make it go away. Saturn will rule humanity till humans completely conquer death and become spiritual beings. I don't even know if that is possible.

There is a lot of evidence of things belonging to a particular age and I do believe to some extent in astrological ages but it is very difficult to explain.
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Unread 07-17-2019, 03:19 PM
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I see it as both. Old and new exist together, just like how life and death exist simulatenously. We can't be excessively joyous and be blind to the decay and death. In the olden days across many cultures death was celebrated, to me that is homage to Saturn. Just because people stopped celebrating death everywhere does not make it go away. Saturn will rule humanity till humans completely conquer death and become spiritual beings. I don't even know if that is possible.

There is a lot of evidence of things belonging to a particular age and I do believe to some extent in astrological ages but it is very difficult to explain.
Actually, that "become spiritual beings" concept IS what I'm expecting from the Aquarian Ages. Thanks for stating it so clearly, even if you don't agree it's what the relatively near future holds in store for us.

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Unread 07-17-2019, 03:24 PM
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I've been studying the Ages since the mid 70s. EXTREMELY difficult to explain, but I keep trying. Saturn expects no less from me.
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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The problem is those who can't handle Saturn's relentless, driving influence, and become monsters in human form. They rule the world, not the wise ones.

Of course it is not easy it is a cruel treatment and people including astrologers falsely believe that Saturn is impartial and treats everyone the same. I find it to be utterly ridiculous, if Saturn treats everyone the same, everyone has to be a melancholic and a genius at something which will help humanity to further the civlisation. This was never the case and never will be. Only Saturn dominant people will have to face cruel treatment which in the later turn out to be good because these people leave legacies. We remember tyrants who built great structures exploiting the slaves throughout history as much as we remember Van Gogh.

I love the planet Saturn so very much but at times it becomes really unbearable!
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Unread 07-17-2019, 03:25 PM
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Understanding that a particular decision caused few things to happen is possible only in hind sight after the events have passed. As humans are wired to find meaning in everything and from there console themselves when things turn to be real bad. There is a danger in it as humans are not very intelligent to pin point the exact reason for something dreadful that had happened to them with 100% accuracy considering several other factors are always at play.

And if you know your future and you do not take any effort to change it either you unconsciouly know that you can't override fate or you think you can handle whatever happens which depends on your level of awareness.





Not a fan of Einstein, find him to be grossly overrated one. I read that he was influenced by the works of Blavatsky. I find there is some element of truth in it as Blavatsky's works explain so many things from creation to complex concepts in science.

A big fan of Jung and I think what he said that our unconscious becomes our fate if we don't pay attention to it and work with it is definitely valid for people with higher levels of awareness who are undisturbed by whatever happens in their lives.
Yes! I'm very much a fan of Jung's work. I think he really went as near as possible to the "truth". I also believe that our unconscious becomes our fate ,but it can be changed with a little awareness. All one needs is to know that certain "failures" are a physical manifestation of something happening within. This way we can observe it better rather than take it as a pure.coin. Fate.
If we take as an example someone who gets constantly rejected in love, career and friendships. There is a rejection of the self happening somewhere inside that keeps manifesting itself to sort of make its point valid. I've seen this so often. When someone believes they don't deserve something, even if that's happening unconsciously (altho it often seeps outside and it's not hard to see for an observer) they simply don't have it. Or they put themselves in a situation where they will get rejected to verify that internal belief. I wouldn't call that fate. Simply a learning curve. It becomes fate when one accepts it and doesn't questions it AND EVEN THEN, I've seen how loving the universe is, and how much it tries to give this individual the best possible way to heal this or still have a happy life as much as possible. Imagine what would happen if we worked consciously.with that energy.

Btw I find Einstein to have a beautiful mind. I think he was mostly admired for his imagination and ideas rather than possibly actual work. He was definitely a visionary.
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Unread 07-17-2019, 03:31 PM
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Of course it is not easy it is a cruel treatment and people including astrologers falsely believe that Saturn is impartial and treats everyone the same. I find it to be utterly ridiculous, if Saturn treats everyone the same, everyone has to be a melancholic and a genius at something which will help humanity to further the civlisation. This was never the case and never will be. Only Saturn dominant people will have to face cruel treatment which in the later turn out to be good because these people leave legacies. We remember tyrants who built great structures exploiting the slaves throughout history as much as we remember Van Gogh.

I love the planet Saturn so very much but at times it becomes really unbearable!
Without knowing the particulars, in theory, how one responds to Saturnian influence would depend mainly on the Natal-chart configuration, in addition to familial and cultural considerations. Some become wise, some become despondent, and some become monsters.
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Unread 07-17-2019, 03:33 PM
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Yes! I'm very much a fan of Jung's work. I think he really went as near as possible to the "truth". I also believe that our unconscious becomes our fate ,but it can be changed with a little awareness. All one needs is to know that certain "failures" are a physical manifestation of something happening within. This way we can observe it better rather than take it as a pure.coin. Fate.
If we take as an example someone who gets constantly rejected in love, career and friendships. There is a rejection of the self happening somewhere inside that keeps manifesting itself to sort of make its point valid. I've seen this so often. When someone believes they don't deserve something, even if that's happening unconsciously (altho it often seeps outside and it's not hard to see for an observer) they simply don't have it. Or they put themselves in a situation where they will get rejected to verify that internal belief. I wouldn't call that fate. Simply a learning curve. It becomes fate when one accepts it and doesn't questions it AND EVEN THEN, I've seen how loving the universe is, and how much it tries to give this individual the best possible way to heal this or still have a happy life as much as possible. Imagine what would happen if we worked consciously.with that energy.

Btw I find Einstein to have a beautiful mind. I think he was mostly admired for his imagination and ideas rather than possibly actual work. He was definitely a visionary.
It's a shame that Jung has become so devalued in modern-day psychology.
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Unread 07-17-2019, 03:58 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Without knowing the particulars, in theory, how one responds to Saturnian influence would depend mainly on the Natal-chart configuration, in addition to familial and cultural considerations. Some become wise, some become despondent, and some become monsters.

Yes but we can't predict who will turn to be a monstrous monster. Monsters are not thrown into life or the world they are born from the life itself. Life gives birth to monsters, except we don't know the mechanics of how monsters are created. Life gives birth to new life, life feeds on life, life protects life in endless cycles.

I watched once a documentary on lions and a young cub was attacked by hyenas in the night and they teared the cub's back completely and ripped it open and its mother left even though the cub was trying to catch up to her by crawling on the front two legs. She would eventually mate with a lion to give birth to new life. Would you call the cub's mother a monster for leaving it to die eventually?
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Unread 07-17-2019, 04:36 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Yes but we can't predict who will turn to be a monstrous monster. Monsters are not thrown into life or the world they are born from the life itself. Life gives birth to monsters, except we don't know the mechanics of how monsters are created. Life gives birth to new life, life feeds on life, life protects life in endless cycles.

I watched once a documentary on lions and a young cub was attacked by hyenas in the night and they teared the cub's back completely and ripped it open and its mother left even though the cub was trying to catch up to her by crawling on the front two legs. She would eventually mate with a lion to give birth to new life. Would you call the cub's mother a monster for leaving it to die eventually?
on the contrary
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...867#post986867
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Apotelesmatica

8. Monsters
The subject of teratology is not foreign to the present inquiry, for when the luminaries are turned away from the Hour-Marker with the maleficent planets separating the angles, they make humble and unlucky nativities and when the predominators of the preceding syzygy are disjunct from the preceding New or Full Moon itself, they are afflicted by teratogens. If Phaethon and Phosphoros aspect the luminaries, they make them honoured, prophets with Stilbon, but when alone, it makes them toothless, deaf and dumb, though otherwise clever and cunning, and when they are disjunct, the nativities are entirely irrational. In such cases, one must conjecture the intensity of affliction with the proximate fixed stars, whether beneficent or maleficent.


12. Bodily Injuries and Diseases
To gain a general comprehension, it is necessary to look at the two angles with the horizon, that is the Hour-Marker and the Setting, especially the latter, for the moist exhalations about the earth most influence bodies. We must also observe what aspect the maleficent planets bear to them, for if they, one or both of them are stationed against the angular degrees, with conjunction, tetragon or diameter, the subjects born will suffer bodily injuries and disease, especially when either one or both of the luminaries as well chance to be angular in the manner described for in that case not only one of the maleficent planets is post-ascending the luminaries but even if it is pre-ascending them while angular, they have power to produce injuries or diseases of such kind as the place of the horizon and ecliptic may indicate, likewise what is indicated by the natures of the afflicting and afflicted planets, and moreover by those that bear some aspect to them. For the most part, the eastern maleficent planets produce injuries, and the western maleficent planets cause disease that bears upon the patient either continuously or in sudden attacks. Bodily injuries and diseases are also indicated by afflicted planets occupying the pre-ascensions of the aforementioned angles, or by those that are post-ascending, in which case, the general time is discovered from their risings.

Phainon is lord of the right ear, the spleen, the bladder, the phlegm, and the bones, Phaethon is lord of touch, the lungs, arteries, and semen, Pyroeis of the left ear, kidneys, veins, and genitals, the Sun of the sight, the brain, heart, sinews and all the right-hand parts, Phosphoros of smell, the liver, and the flesh, Stilbon of speech and thought, the tongue, the bile, and the buttocks, and the Moon of taste and drinking, the stomach, belly, womb, and all the left-hand parts.

Hermes Trismegistus and the philosopher observed various configurations related to this topic.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...os/3C*.html#12

13. Quality of the Mind
We are in full agreement with the investigation of the mind from Moon and Stilbon as done with the detailed methods described by the philosopher.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...os/3D*.html#13




14. Diseases of the Mind
We are mostly in agreement in investigation of diseases of the mind, indicated from the positions of the Moon and Stilbon relative to each other, and to the Hour-Marker, for if they turned away, while overcome, enclosed, or in opposition with maleficent planets in injurious aspects, they give various diseases which affect the character of the mind, the interpretation of which, is calculated from the previously described qualities of the planets.

In most cases those are epileptic in whose nativities the Moon and Stilbon are, as we said before, unrelated to each other or the Hour-Marker, while Phainon by day or Pyroeis by night is angular and in the aspect previously described. And they are violently insane when, again under the same conditions, Phainon by night and Pyroeis by day rules the position. And they are most afflicted if maleficent planets are in this place and control the New or Full Moon, Phainon with new moon, Pyroeis with full moon and especially with dual places. We are in agreement with the remaining investigations done by the philosopher and the ancients.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...os/3D*.html#13

Sources
Robbins, F. E. (1940). Ptolemy: Tetrabiblos. William Heinmann, London. Retrieved from
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...blos/home.html
Schmidt, R. Hephaistio of Thebes Apotelesmatics Book II. Project Hindsight.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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Unread 07-17-2019, 04:39 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post

Looks like traditional astrology has answers to every problem we face in life . I will take a break from this thread for a while and read the books so kindly offered by conspiracy theorist.
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JUPITERASC (07-17-2019)
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Unread 07-19-2019, 03:41 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

I have Saturn just about as strong as it can be, and what I aspire to observe is all about the relevance of timing, structure and discipline. Most who read this will make the assumption this is bereft of all things cultural, but my primary occupation is cultural.

That said, I grow impatient with indulgences, platitudes and proclamations.
Most of us are on here searching for knowledge gleaned by those who have made the commitment, not daydreams of would-be deities.

The attainment of a solid, sound framework, to then be able to perceive the aspects, lights, and movements to delineate seems to me, a hard won gift. It bewilders me that the process of synthesis is so frequently blown past in deference to attempts to saddle any one factor with a load of properties.

The economy is getting tighter, and I'm likely not alone in my remorse for having to had to give up so many wonderful books for cruel necessity. This is one of the things that make posted quotes such a luxury. So THANK YOU paragraph posters!

To address another subject, a powerful Saturn does not necessarily predispose the native to the study and focus on one and only one subject. Of course it happens, but discipline, of itself, doesn't have to mandate hobbling limitation. One application could be the integration of other disciplines made to create a greater base of knowledge, for example.

Contemporaneous extinction events shine a beam of sarcasm on regularly posted aspirations towards humanity becoming "spiritual beings". We have always had varying degrees and understandings of exactly what that means, but the epitome for most would be after having made our passage to the other side.

One glorious manifestation of Free Will (in staying on point) immensely enjoyed by me, is the ability to utilize that feature put in place thanks to the infinite wisdom of the administrator of the forum; the venerable ignore option.
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Unread 07-19-2019, 05:50 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

What about the old idea that we're not "compelled" to be true to our Charts, but "impelled"? "Compelled" would mean no freedom of choice.
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