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Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


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  #51  
Unread 05-16-2019, 03:15 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by aldebaran View Post
I wasn't reffering to yourself when I mentioned arrogance, I rather complimented you for the mention of this Hume passage.
I'm sorry, I took that as sarcasm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aldebaran View Post
However, since Kant the practice of separating "mind things" and "outer things" has being kept, and that is an issue.
We read Kant differently. The way I see it, he was moving away from Descartes' dualism, and exploring the connection between the two "realms". And then came Husserl, with his Cartesian Meditations, and his phenomenology. And so on.

I don't see Kant as "sending to garbage thousands of history of humankind science and philosophy".

Both the rationalists and the empiricists considered the mind as merely receptive; either because we were born with the ideas we have, or because it is just a passive vessel to gather data.

For me, the most interesting part in Kant is his argument about the mind actively participating in perception. Because we structure and organize our experiences in specific ways, we create our own reality (I was not surprized when I bumped into references to Kant's Critique in works discussing Buddhist epistemology). As for the rest, well, he was a child of his era, like we are of ours.

Anyway, back to astrology: the planets and the stars would exist without human consciousness, but astrology as a symbolical system would not. I don't think that where we are now, we should try and go back to arguing about whether the human mind received astrology directly from the gods (or we were born with it, etc), or it is simply a collection of observations (I already shared what I think about the cause-and-effect model). We are beyond that, beyond Kant, and beyond phenomenology.

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  #52  
Unread 05-16-2019, 03:44 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Planetary placement is based on time.

That much, we know for certain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Actually, it is not. It is based on gravity.

That much, we know for certain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Try drawing a chart for a person or event with no time or date given.
It's as easy as drawing a chart of non-existant celestial bodies
planetary placement is based on visible planetary bodies
That much, we know for certain.
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  #53  
Unread 05-16-2019, 03:46 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
It's as easy as drawing a chart of non-existant celestial bodies
planetary placement is based on visible planetary bodies
That much, we know for certain.
Keep in mind that david uses planetary placement calculations hidden in the bowels of his computer. It's easy to forget how astronomy works with software, then you start to think that input of time is all that is needed.
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  #54  
Unread 05-16-2019, 03:58 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
14th Century William of Ockham is credited with the "acams razor" hypothesis: Simpler, with fewer assumptions, is better.
A cause that makes planetary placement correlate with human affairs is more far far more improbable than the direct causality hypothesis...
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  #55  
Unread 05-16-2019, 04:08 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Keep in mind that david uses planetary placement calculations
hidden in the bowels of his computer.
It's easy to forget how astronomy works with software, then
you start to think that input of time is all that is needed.
I've read posts on our forum requesting a reading
while freely admitting
to have arbitrarily cherry-picked their ascendant
based on their own opinion
and without applying any known method
such as for example Thrasyllus

Time is important
nevertheless
Time itself has a cause
and
on our particular planet
Time is reckoned by a diurnal revolution
of a conveniently rounded up twenty four hours
when in fact
from our perspective
the stars revolve around the Earth in only 23 hours and 56 minutes.
aka a sidereal day
hence
"clockwork" of anything - including Astrology
is based on chosen parameters
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  #56  
Unread 05-16-2019, 04:12 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
I've read posts on our forum requesting a reading
while freely admitting
to have arbitrarily cherry-picked their ascendant
based on their own opinion
and without applying any known method
such as for example Thrasyllus

Time is important
nevertheless
Time itself has a cause
and
on our particular planet
Time is reckoned by a diurnal revolution
of a conveniently rounded up twenty four hours
when in fact
from our perspective
the stars revolve around the Earth in only 23 hours and 56 minutes.
aka a sidereal day
hence
"clockwork" of anything - including Astrology
is based on chosen parameters
Indeed, time is very unreliable when it comes to natal charts. Nowadays I prefer Ptolemy's ''Animodar'' to Thrasyllus, but the principle is the same, birth can occur only under a certain configuration of the heavens.
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  #57  
Unread 05-16-2019, 04:16 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

14th Century William of Ockham

is credited with the "acams razor" hypothesis:
Simpler, with fewer assumptions, is better.
Suicidal razor dude Ockham

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor
Occam's razor aka Ockham's razor
is a principle from philosophy.
Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence
In this case the one that requires the least speculation is usually correct.
Another way of saying it
is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation
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  #58  
Unread 05-16-2019, 04:23 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Indeed, time is very unreliable when it comes to natal charts.
Quite

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Nowadays I prefer Ptolemy's ''Animodar'' to Thrasyllus, but
the principle is the same, birth can occur only
under a certain configuration of the heavens.
so then I'm posting a neat illustration of the ANIMODAR METHOD
extrapolated from another thread on our forum
that you may appreciate


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar
One last thing, chart rectification. How does this work? Could you show me?

Now that I have figured out the Animodar sure.

I'll use Professor Gumby's chart to keep it simple. That chart is a Preventional Chart. How do we know? Because the Moon is applying to the conjunction of the Sun having completed its opposition to the Sun. So we need to cast a Lunation Chart for the Full Moon prior to birth (we would cast a Lunation Chart for the New Moon if the chart would be Conjunctional).



We use the Light Above Horizon for Full Moon Lunation Charts (and that would include a Lunar Eclipse for this purpose). That is the Sun at 28° Taurus 07'.

Which Planet has the greatest Dignity in the Sun? Venus does. Venus is the Sign Ruler and Venus is the Earth Sect Triplicity Ruler.

Now, switch back to the Natal Chart and look at Venus. To which is Venus closer in Degrees, the Ascendant or the Midheaven? Obviously the Midheaven at 1° Virgo 31'.

Yes, there are 30° in Virgo, but at Latitude 39°N07' how many degrees actually cross over the Midheaven as the Ascendant crosses the Horizon?

Look at the Right Ascensions of the Midheaven. We want the full 30° of Virgo so we subtract the Right Ascension at 0° Libra from the Right Ascension at 0° Virgo.

180°00' = 0° Libra at 39°N07'
152°05' = 0° Virgo at 39°N07'
-------
xxxxxxx

179°60'
152°05'
-------
027°55'

Now, the Midheaven is at 01°Virgo31' so how much Right Ascension is that?

153°32' = 1°31' Virgo at 39°N07'
152°05' = 0°00' Virgo at 39°N07'
-------
001°27'

We need the Hourly Distance of Venus.

Venus is at 4° Cancer 39'. Her Right Ascension is 95°04 and her Oblique Ascension is 74°30.

The Ascensional Difference is the Right Ascension minus the Oblique Ascension:

AD[Venus] = 95°04' - 74°30'

AD[Venus] = 20°34'

Venus is out-of-Bounds in this chart with a Declination of 24°N54' so we add the Ascensional Difference to 90° giving us 110°34' for the Semi-Diurnal Arc (we would subtract if the Declination was Negative and we would reverse that for those living in the Southern Hemisphere).

The Temporal Hours will be the Semi-Diurnal Arc divided by 6:

TH[Venus] = 110°34 / 6 = 18°25'

Then to find the Hourly Distance, we divide the Meridian Distance by 18°25'

How far away is Venus from the Midheaven by Right Ascension? We just subtract the RA of Venus from the Right Ascension of the Midheaven (RAMC).

Meridian Distance = 153°32' - 95°04'

Meridian Distance = 58°28'

Now we divide the Meridian Distance by the Temporal Hours to get the Hourly Distance

HD[Venus] = 58°28' / 18°25'

HD[Venus]= 3°10'

The Hourly Distance tells you the number of Houses away from the Meridian (either the MC or the IC) that a Planet is and that is what the whole number represents, and the fractional part is how far away from the Cusp of the House that Venus is.

Each House is essentially 2 Diurnal Hours. Think of the chart as a clock where the Ascendant is 6:00 AM so then 3 Houses or 6 Hours (3 * 2 = 6) later it is 12:00 PM and that is the Midheaven and the 6 Hours later is the Descendant at 6:00 PM and then 6 Hours later is the Nadir/IC at 12:00 AM and then we've come full circle back to the Ascendant at 6:00 AM in a 24-Hour period.

We just have to set up a simple proportion or a ratio:

27°55' : 2 = 1°27' : X

From our high school math, we know to cross-multiply and divide, and so we have:

2 * 1°27' / 27°55' = X

It's easier to use decimal notation:

2 * 1.45 / 27.91666 = X

2.9 / 27.91666 = X

0.03582 = X

So, um, what exactly is "0.03582" in Degrees?

It is less than 1°. That is what the big fat "0" means.

Let's multiply by 60 to convert to minutes:

60 * 0.03582 = 2.1492

That gives us 0°2.1492' of arc.

Multiply the 0.1492 * 60 = 8"

So there is a difference of 0°02'08"

Can we round that off? Sure, let's call it 0°02'

Now, there are 24 Hours in one day and 360° in the Zodiac Circle.

How many Degrees are in 1 Hour?

Simple, 360 / 24 = 15° and you might notice the longitudinal meridians around Earth are 0° 15° 30° etc and most of the Time Zones are based on those.

If there are 15° in 1 Hour, how many Degrees are in 1 Minute?

Simple, 15° in 60 Minutes or 1° every 4 Minutes.

And that is 30' every 2 Minutes or 15' every Minute/60 Seconds or 1' every 4 seconds.

So my birth time is off by about 8 or 9 seconds or so.

Now, if I was the Anal Retentive Astrologer, I would rip everything up, chuck it out the window and start with a whole new chart and post 30 "Read My Chart" threads about the new birth time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar
Thanks for the help. I'll pay you back one day

Pay it forward. Attached Images Crosby Wealth.jpg (52.2 KB, 130 views) Gumby Wealth.jpg (51.4 KB, 96 views) Gumby Full Moon.jpg (37.5 KB, 96 views)
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Four Modern Astrologers said Serial Killer John Wayne Gacy: "…can be very good with kids..." "...just your presence would be beneficial to other people..." "...a fairly well-rounded personality...you can offer a good role model..." "You have an instinctive awareness and your uninhibited response to life can refresh and gladden whomever you encounter."

Traditional Astrology Says: "...shows a strange mind and very wicked."

Gacy received 12 Death and 21 Life sentences for the murder of 33 boys.
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  #59  
Unread 05-16-2019, 04:27 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

No, I don't appreciate it since it's offtopic Also that's not how you do it...
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Unread 05-16-2019, 04:42 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

No, I don't appreciate it since it's offtopic

Also that's not how you do it...
show us on another thread the correct way
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  #61  
Unread 05-16-2019, 05:29 PM
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
A cause that makes planetary placement correlate with human affairs is more far far more improbable than the direct causality hypothesis...
You should be using Parans then, not the Lines of Celestial Longitude. Any planet not visible and/or not in direct line with the native's physical location on Earth at any given time would be without influence. Also, you have to explain the medium of transmission of influence.

Last edited by david starling; 05-16-2019 at 05:31 PM.
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Unread 05-16-2019, 06:03 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
You should be using Parans then, not the Lines of Celestial Longitude. Any planet not visible and/or not in direct line with the native's physical location on Earth at any given time would be without influence. Also, you have to explain the medium of transmission of influence.
Celestial longitude is used because planets always travel along the ecliptic, which has specific effects due to the elevation (it doesn't for the equator though)... Parans are to used in the case of heliacal phenomena, though - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=125928. I recommend a mixture of the two systems in the case of proximate fixed stars.

Last edited by petosiris; 05-16-2019 at 06:06 PM.
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  #63  
Unread 05-16-2019, 06:14 PM
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

Do we have to know WHY astrology works in order to interpret a chart?
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Unread 05-16-2019, 06:16 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Do we have to know WHY astrology works in order to interpret a chart?
No, but aren't you curious?
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Unread 05-16-2019, 06:20 PM
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No, but aren't you curious?
It's beyond our job description. However, I have sought the answer in the realms of higher consciousness.
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Unread 05-16-2019, 06:39 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Also, you have to explain the medium of transmission of influence.
The germination and the fruition of the seed must be moulded and conformed to the biological qualities proper to the physical forces at the time. For example, a high-ranking person in the military is conceived with an ambient that the Sun and the other six planets would enforce in the case of stormy weather, if it happened to occur at the time which predominates the weather, like a syzygy (this is why most nativities' temperaments do not correlate with the weather at the very time of their birth - other cosmic and sublunar phenomena precede them, while in the case of nativities, we only observe the superior cosmic placements, rather than clouds and cyclones).

Nativities occur under similar configurations to the conception.
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Unread 05-16-2019, 07:34 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

Quote:
Also, you have to explain the medium of transmission of influence.
Here is an attempt at a proximate explanation:

1. A very few considerations would make it apparent to all that a certain power emanating from the eternal ethereal substance is dispersed through and permeates the whole region about the earth, which throughout is subject to change, since, of the primary sublunar elements, fire and air are encompassed and changed by the motions in the ether and in turn encompass and change all else, earth and water and the plants and animals therein.

Sun together with the ambient, is always in some way affecting everything on the earth, not only by the changes that accompany the seasons of the year to bring about the generation of animals, the productiveness of plants, the flowing of rivers, the change of bodies, but also daily furnishing heat, moisture, dryness and cold in regular order and in correspondence with its position relative to the zenith.

Moon, too, as the heavenly body nearest to the earth, bestows its effluence most abundantly upon mundane things, for most of them, animate or inanimate, are sympathetic with it, and change in company with it, the rivers increase and diminish their streams with its light, the seas turn their own tides with its rising and setting, and plants and animals in whole or in some part increase or decrease with it.

The ambient and the other five wandering stars often cause hot, windy and snowy conditions of the air, and mundane matters are affected accordingly. All aspects bring about many complicated changes, for though the power of the Sun prevails in the general ordering of the quality, the other heavenly bodies cooperate or deter in particular details. If these matters be so regarded, all would judge it to follow that not only must things already compounded be affected in some way by the heavenly bodies, but likewise the germination and the fruition of the seed must be moulded and conformed to the biological qualities proper to the physical forces at the time.

2. Sun is heating and moderately drying, this is made more easily perceptible with its size and the obviousness of its seasonal changes, for the closer it approaches the zenith, the more it affects us.

Moon is moistening and moderately heating, certainly because it is close to the earth and because of the moist exhalations therefrom, and because of the light which it receives from the Sun.

Saturn is cooling and moderately drying, since it is furthest removed from the Sun and the moist exhalations about the earth. With the five wandering stars, there are powers which arise through their aspects to the Sun and the Moon, for some of them modify the conditions in the ambient in one way, some in another, by increase or decrease.

Jupiter is heating and moderately moistening, with temperate active force because its movement takes place between the cooling influence of Saturn and the burning power of Mars, and because it has greater heating power by reason of the underlying planets, it produces fertilizing winds.

Mars is drying and burning, in conformity with its fiery colour, its speed of motion, and relative proximity to the Sun.

Venus is moistening and moderately heating, temperate nature that appropriates exhalations from the moist atmosphere surrounding the earth, and the light of the proximate Sun.

Mercury is alternating between drying and moistening, for it is never far removed from the Sun, and since it appropriates the exhalations from Venus and the earth. It changes quickly from one quality to the other, inspired by the speed of its motion in the neighbourhood of the Sun itself.

We refer, however, to the four qualities and four elements not in the sense that they constitute the material basis of the physical world, but that the power of the planets contribute to these physical qualities in the atmosphere, which in turn influence all else, biology and the sociology therein.

Everything else follows these qualities - see https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=126640

3. Universal and genethlialogical prognostication have the one and the same power both practically and theoretically, for the changes in the subject precisely correspond to the parallel movement of the heavenly bodies through the surrounding heavens except that universal conditions are greater and independent, and particular conditions not similarly so. We must not, however, consider that both divisions employ the same starting-points, since we have no single one for the universe, and since these that we have are not always taken from the subject natures themselves, but also from the elements that attend them and carry with them the causes. In predictions affecting individual men, however, we have both one and many starting-points. The beginning of the temperament is the first starting-point and many are the successive of the ambients relative to the first beginning, though to be sure the single starting-point is naturally in this case of greatest importance because it produces the others. The general characteristics of temperament are determined from the first starting-point, while by means of others we predict events that will come about at specific times.

Since the chronological starting-point of human nativities is naturally the time of conception, but potentially and accidentally the moment of birth, in cases in which the very time of conception is known either by chance or by observation, it is more fitting that we should follow it to determine the special nature of body or mind, examining the effective power of the configuration of planets at that time. For to the seed is given once and for all at the beginning such and such qualities by the endowment of the genetic mixture of the parents, which is in turn controlled by the ambient, and such biological determinism dependent upon physical reductionism is easily comprehended. But when people do not know the time of conception, which is usually the case, we must follow the starting-point furnished by the moment of birth and give to this our attention, for it too is of great importance and falls short of the former only in this respect, that by the former it is possible to have foreknowledge also of events preceding birth. For if one should call the one source, and the other, as it were, the beginning, its importance in time, indeed, is secondary, but it is equal or rather even more perfect in potentiality and with reasonable propriety would the former be called genesis of seed, and the latter the genesis of man. For the child at birth and his bodily form take on many additional attributes which he did not have before when he was in the womb, those very ones indeed which belong to human nature alone and even if it seems that the ambient at the time of birth contributes nothing towards his quality, at least his very coming forth into light under the appropriate confirmation of the heavens does contribute, since nature, after the child is perfectly formed, gives the impulse to a birth under a configuration of similar type to that which governed the formation of the child in detail in the first place. Accordingly, one may with good reasoning believe that the position of the stars with the time of birth is significant of things of this sort, not, however, for the reason that it is causative in the full sense, but that by necessity and nature it has potentially very similar causative power, furthermore we can investigate influences of the planets concerning parents, brethren, and children, through the influence of specific particulate heredity.
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  #68  
Unread 05-16-2019, 08:24 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
The patterns we perceive when using astrology, each in our own way, trigger a type of psychic ability. That's why astrology works. It affects our brain chemistry. Very addictive!
Hey, who gave you that idea?
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  #69  
Unread 05-16-2019, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Hey, who gave you that idea?
ptolemy. I was waiting for you to claim it. Brilliant!
Do you still propose this as a viable explanation?

Last edited by david starling; 05-16-2019 at 09:15 PM.
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Unread 05-16-2019, 09:31 PM
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

J.A., are shrooms included in your vegetarian diet? Or, rye ergot?
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Unread 05-16-2019, 09:35 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Do you still propose this as a viable explanation?
Not anymore, I changed my mind on that kind of sorcery. Read my lengthy post above.

Though I would still prefer someone defending that to religious, metaphorical and synchronicity explanations to be sure.

Last edited by petosiris; 05-16-2019 at 09:37 PM.
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Unread 05-16-2019, 09:37 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Not anymore, I changed my mind on that kind of sorcery. Read my lengthy post above.
My occams razor wore out!

Last edited by david starling; 05-16-2019 at 10:59 PM.
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Unread 05-16-2019, 09:39 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
I just lost a whole bunch of stuff. I'll re-write later.
Hoping you do. I like your straightforward approach to this subject.
Also, thanks for alerting me to the chart patterns. We're currently living in a transit-bowl configuration, with the Moon making it a bucket, periodically. Jupiter's the cutting edge.

Last edited by david starling; 05-16-2019 at 09:49 PM.
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Unread 05-16-2019, 10:32 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
My acams razor wore out!
It's the most parsimonious explanation that I can think of, except one - ''astrology is not real, kiddo''.
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Unread 05-16-2019, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
A cause that makes planetary placement correlate with human affairs is more far far more improbable than the direct causality hypothesis...
Causation is not more probable that correlation between two variables only because less variables are required to explain direct relationships. That is a profound misuse of Occam’s razor.

Last edited by Flapjacks; 05-16-2019 at 11:02 PM.
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