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Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


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  #76  
Unread 08-19-2015, 03:42 AM
thelivingsky thelivingsky is offline
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

I agree with most everything said here about difficult aspects to Mars especially if the aspected planets fall in fixed signs and there are multiple difficult aspects. But most of the examples here speak of violence that erupts suddenly out of anger or frustration. But there are people who commit very violent acts in very unemotional ways that are very calculated and premeditated.

Is Bill Cosby's premeditated acts of rape a form of violence? What about Andrea Yates who drowned her 4 children? Or Charles Manson who didn't commit the act of murder himself but was able to get his followers to do it for him? Manson's Mars has no difficult aspects, it is sextile Sun and Venus. But he has Pluto and the Black Moon on his nodal axis and these planets square Uranus. Cosby also has the Black Moon on a Node with Orcus and Venus on the opposite node and these nodes square his Moon/Neptune conjunction. Andrea Yates also has the Black Moon and Orcus on the Nodes, but she also has Mars afflictions with Mars square Uranus and Pluto.

There was a woman here in Ohio a few years back who stalked a pregnant neighbor and murdered her, then performed c-section to get the infant for her own. (This woman's chart is on the Astrodatabank at Astrodienst look for Michelle Bica. ) She has no hard aspects to Mars either unless you include a wide conjunction to Orcus, but Pluto and the Moon are on her nodes and the Black Moon is in a t-square with Neptune and the Sun.

I've collected charts of many famous serial killers and many do not have hard Mars aspects. Ted Bundy does have Mars and Moon opposite Uranus but Orcus and the Nodes and the Black Moon are also in this aspect. His chart really stands out.

other serial killers;
Peter Sutcliffe has no hard Mars aspects but Orcus and Uranus fall on the nodes and the Black Moon on the Asc.
David Berkowitz: Orcus is conjunct Mars making an inconjunct to the Moon and Chrion and the Node.
John wayne Gacy: Mars has no aspects to outer planets only a square to Mercury unless you allow an 8 degree orb then it is conjunct Uranus. But Orcus squares the Nodes and Jupiter, the chart ruler. The Black Moon squares his Sun/Moon conjunction.
Harold Shipman: Mars is conj. Saturn opposite his Sun and Venus. Orcus is conjunct his Uranus and Moon and opposing the Black Moon.

Another chart that really stands out although I am not certain if his crimes were the result of spontaneous passion/anger or more premeditated like the serial killers above, is Joran van der Sloot. He has a large stellium with Sun, Mars, Venus Orcus and the Black Moon all making a square to Pluto His nodes square Moon and Neptune.

It appears that Orcus and the Black Moon and the Nodes are common components in the tense aspects of these charts. Pluto or the Moon on the Nodes appears fairly frequently too. It seems to take more than a couple of these combinations to produce such violent tendencies. But I am certain that there are other persons born at the same times and dates as many of these killers who have not committed these horrible crimes.

So, there is likely another component(s) that cannot be determined by looking at a chart.

Barb at thelivingsky.wordpress.com

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  #77  
Unread 08-26-2015, 10:28 AM
kshantaram kshantaram is offline
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

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Originally Posted by ashriia View Post

Just for research/learning purposes. I have mars square uranus 2 degrees. saturn square uranus 8 degrees. And I have never been violent toward anyone, ever. I am very unsettled by violent behavior or seeing expressions of it. The only thing I am guilty of is feeling intense dislike sometimes toward people, who I just avoid altogether or ignore. And the mercury/pluto aspect can make me say the craziest creative **** when upset. but that is as far as it goes.

The 2nd chart is someone who I know has been violent, mostly toward women, and also has violent outburts(i.e. throwing, breaking things, yelling), when stressed. Saturn/Uranus/Moon are all locked in a t-square. And Mars is square Pluto.

It's kind of a Jekyll and Hyde syndrome with him. He is not a bad person either, just has serious temper issues. He does cardio daily, and says it really helps him release tension.

the nodes rahu-ketu over libra-aries,

airy libra especially rahu-libra can tilt balance, provoked to stormy anger when provoked, though otherwise calm and composed, objective-fair, social, artistic, etc

ketu separative node fiery aries hyper sensitive and impulsive, attention seeking, action oriented, accident prone.



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  #78  
Unread 08-26-2015, 02:37 PM
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by positivevibes View Post
Here are the other Hard Mars aspects that this author thoroughly explained besides Pluto which he didn't do:

[Quote over 100 words against Forum rules - Moderator - taken from this website: http://www.rosicrucian.com/mos/moseng06.htm ]

The Sun square or opposition to Mars endows the person with an abundance of energy...

Venus square or opposition to Mars gives a very voluptuous and sensuous disposition, liable to gross excesses in the gratification of the passions which will sap the vitality...

Mercury square or opposition to Mars makes people quick-witted, sharp and alert, quick-tempered, impulsive and excitable, liable to jump at conclusions and act before they think...

Saturn conjunction, parallel, square or opposition to Mars are thoroughly bad aspects indicating a selfish, violent, harsh and cruel nature...

Jupiter square or opposition to Mars is the signature of the gambler...

Uranus conjunction, parallel, square, or opposition to Mars gives an erratic and eccentric disposition...

According to that book, I'm a sadistic, womanizing anarchist prone to demon possession, so I'd take that book's fatalism with a grain of salt. Most flaws can be turned into strengths if you work hard enough at it.

Last edited by wilsontc; 08-30-2015 at 02:36 PM.
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  #79  
Unread 08-26-2015, 03:18 PM
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

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Originally Posted by deepseafish View Post

According to that book, I'm a sadistic, womanizing anarchist prone to demon possession,
so I'd take that book's fatalism with a grain of salt.
Most flaws can be turned into strengths if you work hard enough at it
.
You've highlighted the failure of 'one-size-fits-all school of astrology'
closely aligned with the 'cookbook school of astrology'
both of which are only able to generalise
and
generalisation although fun, is unreliable

and here's why more work is required in order to more reliably delineate

Quote:
Originally Posted by positivevibes View Post

Here are the other Hard Mars aspects that this author thoroughly explained:
[Quote over 100 words against Forum rules - Moderator - taken from this website: http://www.rosicrucian.com/mos/moseng06.htm]

The Sun square or opposition to Mars

endows the person with an abundance of energy...
That's a gross over-simplification
because
no mention is made of the SIGN
occupied by either planet

i.e.
Sun may be in any one of twelve different signs
Mars may be in any one of twelve different signs
that already offers 144 possible variations
and there are more

Quote:
Originally Posted by positivevibes View Post

Venus square or opposition to Mars
gives a very voluptuous and sensuous disposition,
liable to gross excesses in the gratification of the passions
which will sap the vitality
...
another gross over-simplification for the reasons previously stated
also
unless Venus and Mars are in domicile
the ruling planet of the sign occupied by Venus or Mars
has an influence on the delineation as well
and so on
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  #80  
Unread 08-27-2015, 01:42 AM
positivevibes positivevibes is offline
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

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Originally Posted by thelivingsky View Post
I agree with most everything said here about difficult aspects to Mars especially if the aspected planets fall in fixed signs and there are multiple difficult aspects. But most of the examples here speak of violence that erupts suddenly out of anger or frustration. But there are people who commit very violent acts in very unemotional ways that are very calculated and premeditated.

Is Bill Cosby's premeditated acts of rape a form of violence? What about Andrea Yates who drowned her 4 children? Or Charles Manson who didn't commit the act of murder himself but was able to get his followers to do it for him? Manson's Mars has no difficult aspects, it is sextile Sun and Venus. But he has Pluto and the Black Moon on his nodal axis and these planets square Uranus. Cosby also has the Black Moon on a Node with Orcus and Venus on the opposite node and these nodes square his Moon/Neptune conjunction. Andrea Yates also has the Black Moon and Orcus on the Nodes, but she also has Mars afflictions with Mars square Uranus and Pluto.

There was a woman here in Ohio a few years back who stalked a pregnant neighbor and murdered her, then performed c-section to get the infant for her own. (This woman's chart is on the Astrodatabank at Astrodienst look for Michelle Bica. ) She has no hard aspects to Mars either unless you include a wide conjunction to Orcus, but Pluto and the Moon are on her nodes and the Black Moon is in a t-square with Neptune and the Sun.

I've collected charts of many famous serial killers and many do not have hard Mars aspects. Ted Bundy does have Mars and Moon opposite Uranus but Orcus and the Nodes and the Black Moon are also in this aspect. His chart really stands out.

other serial killers;
Peter Sutcliffe has no hard Mars aspects but Orcus and Uranus fall on the nodes and the Black Moon on the Asc.
David Berkowitz: Orcus is conjunct Mars making an inconjunct to the Moon and Chrion and the Node.
John wayne Gacy: Mars has no aspects to outer planets only a square to Mercury unless you allow an 8 degree orb then it is conjunct Uranus. But Orcus squares the Nodes and Jupiter, the chart ruler. The Black Moon squares his Sun/Moon conjunction.
Harold Shipman: Mars is conj. Saturn opposite his Sun and Venus. Orcus is conjunct his Uranus and Moon and opposing the Black Moon.

Another chart that really stands out although I am not certain if his crimes were the result of spontaneous passion/anger or more premeditated like the serial killers above, is Joran van der Sloot. He has a large stellium with Sun, Mars, Venus Orcus and the Black Moon all making a square to Pluto His nodes square Moon and Neptune.

It appears that Orcus and the Black Moon and the Nodes are common components in the tense aspects of these charts. Pluto or the Moon on the Nodes appears fairly frequently too. It seems to take more than a couple of these combinations to produce such violent tendencies. But I am certain that there are other persons born at the same times and dates as many of these killers who have not committed these horrible crimes.

So, there is likely another component(s) that cannot be determined by looking at a chart.

Barb at thelivingsky.wordpress.com

Agreed.

I certainly do not think hard Mars aspects are the only signs of violence,that's why this thread was created,as I'm trying to find out what other aspects could lead to one being violent.

But as I said before:

Mars-Uranus
Mars-Saturn
Mars-Pluto

Hard aspects,can give one very violent behavior if it is not channeled correctly,or if there is an outlet for their negative energy.

Of course,I think Moon and Mercury plays a part as well,as that has to do with one's emotions(Moon) and one's thinking(Mercury)

Pluto hard aspects to Orcus could be deadly as well
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  #81  
Unread 08-27-2015, 08:50 AM
Blacknight Blacknight is offline
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

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Originally Posted by positivevibes View Post
Agreed.

I certainly do not think hard Mars aspects are the only signs of violence,that's why this thread was created,as I'm trying to find out what other aspects could lead to one being violent.

But as I said before:

Mars-Uranus
Mars-Saturn
Mars-Pluto

Hard aspects,can give one very violent behavior if it is not channeled correctly,or if there is an outlet for their negative energy.

Of course,I think Moon and Mercury plays a part as well,as that has to do with one's emotions(Moon) and one's thinking(Mercury)

Pluto hard aspects to Orcus could be deadly as well
What is the significance of uranus in relation to mars? I understand that traditionally mars and saturn don't like each other so hard contacts can be bad depending on the chart and pluto at least makes sense in context to modern astrology rulership. But uranus/mars aspects seems like a random indicator for violence. What's the deal?
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  #82  
Unread 08-27-2015, 03:18 PM
positivevibes positivevibes is offline
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

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Originally Posted by Blacknight View Post
What is the significance of uranus in relation to mars? I understand that traditionally mars and saturn don't like each other so hard contacts can be bad depending on the chart and pluto at least makes sense in context to modern astrology rulership. But uranus/mars aspects seems like a random indicator for violence. What's the deal?
Per Roscicrucian:

Uranus conjunction, parallel, square, or opposition to Mars gives an erratic and eccentric disposition, a violent temper of the worst nature, an unusually resentment of even the slightest restraint and gives the person a stubborn, headstrong and dogged determination to go ahead in any line of action upon which he has decided no matter what the outcome. He will listed to neither reason nor entreaty but follows his own course in defiance of all. People with these configurations often become anarchists of the reddest type for they do not stop even at the shedding of blood if other testimonies in the figure concur. They are cruel, hard and cold with out a spark of true love through they may be in flamed with passion of the most burning intensity. This is particularly the case when Mars is square Uranus and either planet is placed in Taurus or Scorpio.





My take on it from what I've seen on the web about Mars square Uranus and what I've seen from some people who have this aspect in their chart and it's small orb(meaning they feel that energy greatly):


And other astrologers also say mars square/oppose Uranus is a indicator of one who could have a very violent temper,Im guessing because Uranus is so bizarre,erattic, rebellious and unpredictable,that you mix it in with a square to Mars(Action) anything is liable to happen when one is angry,extreme violence are what people with this aspect are CAPABLE of,no everyone with this aspect is not a cold blooded killer,but this aspect is often found in the chartsof Murderers as well.

Bob Marks who is a very good astrologer and has his own website,said Mars-Uranus,Mars-Saturn and Mars-Pluto are seen the most in murderers,with Mars-Uranus being the first,because the nature of Uranus is very wild and once again unpredictable,the type that if they get mad at you they may never talk to you again or blow your house up,just unpredictable and shocking violence.

Last edited by positivevibes; 08-27-2015 at 03:20 PM.
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  #83  
Unread 08-30-2015, 10:36 AM
demetraceres demetraceres is offline
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

What exactly do you mean with violence in natal chart? Is there any agreement about the definition of violence? Are we talking about the narrow definition of using rough physical force? Or are taking in account all kinds of violence: physical, emotional, verbal, sexual, spiritual? Usually there is talking about murderers, but there are countless ways of being violent or causing harm to people. What about manipulative behaviour with tendency to harm somebody or more of them?

What do you think about the definiton of violence?
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  #84  
Unread 08-30-2015, 11:25 AM
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by positivevibes View Post
Here are the other Hard Mars aspects that this author thoroughly explained besides Pluto which he didn't do:

[Quote over 100 words against Forum rules - Moderator - taken from this website: http://www.rosicrucian.com/mos/moseng06.htm ]

The Sun square or opposition to Mars endows the person with an abundance of energy...

Venus square or opposition to Mars gives a very voluptuous and sensuous disposition, liable to gross excesses in the gratification of the passions which will sap the vitality...

Mercury square or opposition to Mars makes people quick-witted, sharp and alert, quick-tempered, impulsive and excitable, liable to jump at conclusions and act before they think...

Saturn conjunction, parallel, square or opposition to Mars are thoroughly bad aspects indicating a selfish, violent, harsh and cruel nature...

Jupiter square or opposition to Mars is the signature of the gambler...

Uranus conjunction, parallel, square, or opposition to Mars gives an erratic and eccentric disposition...
Hahaha, wow. Okay, so I must be one hell of a violent person. Traditionally, I have Sun and Jupiter Square Mars along with Saturn Opposite Jupiter, Sun and Square Mars (T-Squares!!!! Yay!!!).

The link expired though....would've liked to read on more of these aspects.

[fixed link - Moderator]
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Last edited by wilsontc; 08-30-2015 at 02:36 PM.
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  #85  
Unread 08-31-2015, 10:00 PM
positivevibes positivevibes is offline
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

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Originally Posted by demetraceres View Post
What exactly do you mean with violence in natal chart? Is there any agreement about the definition of violence? Are we talking about the narrow definition of using rough physical force? Or are taking in account all kinds of violence: physical, emotional, verbal, sexual, spiritual? Usually there is talking about murderers, but there are countless ways of being violent or causing harm to people. What about manipulative behaviour with tendency to harm somebody or more of them?

What do you think about the definiton of violence?

Speaking more so on/about physical violence
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  #86  
Unread 09-04-2015, 07:41 AM
demetraceres demetraceres is offline
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

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Originally Posted by positivevibes View Post
Speaking more so on/about physical violence
I have some doubts here. Physical violence is not so common. What about women with this aspects? Women rarely use physical force. Violent temper is probably more about uncontrolled verbal outbursts. Or intentionally trying to hurt with words?

Regarding Mars Saturn conjunction I thougt it is more about inhibition - it is hard for the native to be openly assertive. it could be more about the lack of initiative and self-confidence? I don't imagine here physical or emotional outbursts.

Speaking about outbursts - they are also ascribed to Taurus Mars.
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  #87  
Unread 09-04-2015, 08:11 PM
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

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Originally Posted by demetraceres View Post
I have some doubts here. Physical violence is not so common. What about women with this aspects? Women rarely use physical force. Violent temper is probably more about uncontrolled verbal outbursts. Or intentionally trying to hurt with words?
I don't think the gender difference in physical violence is will they use it so much as when and why. For men, physical violence isn't necessarily about violence, it can be more a way to prove their manhood. Boys get into schoolyard fights kind of as a dominance/socialization thing, but it's usually a lot of "yeah, yeah, come on!" Girls don't fight each other physically unless they really, really mean it. By the time a girl/woman turns to physical violence, typically, all other resources have been exhausted. So when a woman is physically violent, it's often a more intense violence than would usually come from a man, and it happens much less frequently than it would in a man with a similar predisposition.

And I'm talking here about violence between equals, fights that are usually between people of the same gender. That says nothing about other types of situations, like male violence against women. That's also a domination thing, but with the gender dynamic, it's different... and since that happens in the context of a romantic relationship more often than not, the whole abusive relationship dynamic comes into play, too. To me, that sounds more like Pluto than like Mars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by demetraceres View Post
Regarding Mars Saturn conjunction I thought it is more about inhibition - it is hard for the native to be openly assertive. it could be more about the lack of initiative and self-confidence? I don't imagine here physical or emotional outbursts.

Speaking about outbursts - they are also ascribed to Taurus Mars.
The Taurus Mars connection to me makes sense because of the mix of Mars and Taurus. Taurus in and of itself is slow moving and deliberate, very slow to be riled up in any way. The impulsivity of Mars gets tamped way down if it's in Taurus. So a person with Mars in Taurus is probably not going to lose their temper easily--it takes lots and lots of provocation before they do--but will probably do a slow burn. If Mars in Taurus explodes, it's been simmering beneath the surface for a long time. Others don't see the simmer, but they do see the explosion, and to them, it looks like a sudden outburst coming out of nowhere.

I suppose the same sort of thing would apply to someone with a Mars/Saturn conjunction, no matter which sign(s) it's in. Normally, they're inhibited, and it takes a long time and a lot of prodding for them to act, in the sense of Mars-type actions. But when they reach such a boiling point that not even the strongest Saturn can contain their Mars energy any more, boom! Outburst.
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  #88  
Unread 09-04-2015, 08:23 PM
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

Mars square pluto
Mars square ascendant can give aggressive people.
But it all depends on the overall theme .. as usual.
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  #89  
Unread 09-24-2015, 12:38 AM
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by demetraceres View Post
I have some doubts here. Physical violence is not so common. What about women with this aspects? Women rarely use physical force. Violent temper is probably more about uncontrolled verbal outbursts. Or intentionally trying to hurt with words?

Regarding Mars Saturn conjunction I thougt it is more about inhibition - it is hard for the native to be openly assertive. it could be more about the lack of initiative and self-confidence? I don't imagine here physical or emotional outbursts.

Speaking about outbursts - they are also ascribed to Taurus Mars.

Not sure on Mars-Saturn conjunction

But Mars square Saturn is a violent aspect if one does not have an outlet for that pent up frustration
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  #90  
Unread 09-24-2015, 12:39 AM
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

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Originally Posted by kendra View Post
Mars square pluto
Mars square ascendant can give aggressive people.
But it all depends on the overall theme .. as usual.
Mars Square Uranus and Saturn as well.

Moon square Mars is another one
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  #91  
Unread 10-13-2015, 05:45 AM
kshantaram kshantaram is offline
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

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Originally Posted by kshantaram View Post


the nodes rahu-ketu over libra-aries,

airy libra especially rahu-libra can tilt balance, provoked to stormy anger when provoked, though otherwise calm and composed, objective-fair, social, artistic, etc

ketu separative node fiery aries hyper sensitive and impulsive, attention seeking, action oriented, accident prone.

kshantaram

any relevance, feedbacks and ack!
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  #92  
Unread 10-24-2015, 09:54 PM
scarlatina scarlatina is offline
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

I have mars opp. pluto. I know I'm capable of cruelty and violence. Mars square pluto ppl are even worse. Most of them are downright psychos.
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  #93  
Unread 12-16-2015, 07:29 AM
AtlantikaZany AtlantikaZany is offline
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

I have Mars square Moon and can get very defensive over my feelings or people that I love and care about. I'm definitely not one to go out looking for violence. But I wouldn't back down if I needed to defend my loved ones, that's for sure. Then again I have Jupiter trine moon so it softens me up a bit.

I wish I knew the placements/aspects of people that I've known that were physically abusive; but I don't. I've known some scary cancers though...but that's not saying much.
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  #94  
Unread 03-07-2016, 11:41 PM
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

I agree with previous posts that state Mars in hard aspect to Saturn, Uranus and Pluto can cause violence. However, with women who have these, they often become the victim of physical or sexual violence. For instance, I recently had a female client who had Mars conjunct Uranus and Saturn within 3 degrees, and Mars, Uranus and Saturn all made a semisquare to Pluto in the 4th house within 1-3 degrees. She was molested by 3 family members when very young (less than 10 years old) and at age 22 was raped by a man after a party. She has admitted to having a lot of suppressed anger but is not a physically violent person. Worth noting is the semisquare from Mars to Pluto is exact to the minute, so extremely powerful.
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  #95  
Unread 03-07-2016, 11:50 PM
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

Further on Mars in hard aspect to Pluto: Oprah Winfrey who was raped by a family member has Mars in an exact applying aspect to Pluto. Maya Angelou who was raped by her mother's boyfriend had Mars making an applying sesquiquadrate to Pluto by 2 degrees.
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  #96  
Unread 03-08-2016, 01:19 AM
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

My mother has her Mars in exact square to her Uranus, and she has a wicked temper.

I can't speak on the physical/sexual abuse, though.

She has said that her mom was pretty mean-spirited.

Unfortunately, she has turned out to be her exact replica.
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  #97  
Unread 03-08-2016, 03:32 AM
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

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Originally Posted by astro11 View Post
I agree with previous posts that state Mars in hard aspect to Saturn, Uranus and Pluto can cause violence. However, with women who have these, they often become the victim of physical or sexual violence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FortKnight View Post
My mother has her Mars in exact square to her Uranus, and she has a wicked temper.
I agree with these, sadly. I've known Mars-Pluto women who have come across violence from men and Mars-Uranus who have terrible tempers and just go off.
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  #98  
Unread 08-21-2019, 10:03 PM
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Re: Violence in a natal chart

Omg 😮 great!!!! I have Mars 4th house cap opposing Pluto 1st house libra 😬😬😬😬😬😬

I must admit when Iím pushed I have a red hot temper -fiery 🔥😡🤯😳😬.never been violent though and never had a violent relationship

Fiery maybe but not violent however maybe it could have led to that on his side thinking about it 🤔 if I stayed 😬😬 who knows
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