Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Natal Astrology

Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #251  
Unread 04-30-2017, 06:20 PM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,231
Smile Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
A PLANET acts

A HOUSE shows the AREA OF LIFE
in which the planet acts


as well as
how STRONGLY the planet is able to carry out its significations aka ACT


and

the QUALITY of the planet's expression
is influenced by
the SIGN LOCATION of the PLANET






THEN
dependent on time of birth
one of the twelve SIGNS

is pinned on each of the 12 basic 'houses'
the location of each SIGN on each individual natal chart
is comparable to an ENVIRONMENT and is NEUTRAL
and is neither weak nor strong nor partial


i.e.
to use an analogy from nature:
a cactus thrives in sand in harsh sun
and dies when placed in nutrient rich soil in shade

BUT
sand is NEUTRAL
sand IS NOT partial to cacti


similarly SIGNS are IMPARTIAL and NEUTRAL

another example:

a mushroom thrives when placed in nutrient rich soil in darkness
and dies when placed in sand in harsh sun

BUT
nutrient rich ground is NEUTRAL and is not PARTIAL to mushrooms


similarly SIGNS are IMPARTIAL and NEUTRAL

because
to be clear then:
Signs are COMPARABLE to an ENVIRONMENT
an environment is IMPARTIAL

SIGNS are neither weak nor strong
SIGNS are NEUTRAL




Signs are "in neutral" until acted upon by an indicator and "put in gear", which is when they transfer their qualities to that indicator impartially. The indicator will then be of "weak or strong" expression depending on how poorly or well its own nature relates to those Sign-qualities. There is a tendency to characterize Signs by the way the Sun expresses itself in a Sign, but each indicator has its own way of displaying Sign-characteristics, and its own level of strength when in a Sign. For example, the Sun in Aquarius is how the Sun displays Aquarian qualities, while the Moon in Aquarius displays them somewhat differently. The question in this Thread is about: (1) whether the numbered Houses connect to the Signs numbered 1 through 12 (beginning with Aries) in a meaningful way? And, (2) whether such connection causes the Houses to take on the role of Signs and transfer the Signs' qualities and rulership to the areas of life the Houses represent? Tradition says "no" to both parts. My own Modern answer is, "yes" to part one, and "no" to part two. "Yes" to the connection, and "No" to the conflation.


Last edited by david starling; 04-30-2017 at 06:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #252  
Unread 04-30-2017, 09:41 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,276
Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senecar View Post
From Dykes book "Introduction to Traditional Astrology", and Obert's "Introduction to Traditional Natal Astrology", they are all talking about stength and power of planets, when in certain signs, but never strong house or powerful houses.

Houses are just areas of life especially in Tradition Astrology, they are saying. Of course the houses have Angularity, such as Angular, Succendent and Cadent, but it is only meaningful when and which planets are posited in them?
I'd have to defer to Benjamin Dykes, who is one of only a handful of Hellenistic astrologers fluent in ancient Greek and Latin.

I have read in English translation, most of the readily available published sources (plus Valens, available in its entirety on lines, with some portions of it translated in book form.) These date from the first century to the late 6th century CE. My impression is that there were differences in how the authors interpreted and used houses. (Dorotheus (heavily glossed by a Muslim translator,) Manilius, Valens, Ptolemy, Firmicus Maternus, and Rhetorius are the main literary sources, with shorter works or fragments by other authors. We also have some archaeological finds of horoscopes, but they are in verbal, not graphic form for the most part.)

Angularity, esp. the ascendant and MC, did give a planet extra strength, for all the authors. Whether or how the astrologers divided up the quadrants into houses is a matter of some disagreement. So far as I can make out, our concept of houses derived from different systems, ranging from systems of telling time prior to the invention of clocks, and the Egyptian solar religion. prior to any surviving records of how the horoscope houses were developed. This probably happened in Hellenized Egypt.

Even without houses but with a quadrant system, the Hellenistic astrologers all used signs. The Mesopotamians had worked out ephemerides. So even if you didn't use houses back then, you could tell which sign was on the ascendant-DC or MC. Recall that with whole sign houses, the angles typically fall within a sign, not as the house cusps, which they do with quadrant systems.

I've paid attention to debates on the oldest horoscopic house system, and after some resistance, I do think whole signs were the primary system used in Antiquity, although other systems were known.

So, for example, if you determined that a baby was born with the sun in Pisces in late morning, just before the sun reached its highest point on its circuit, that would put the sun in an angular position.

The matters ruled by untenanted houses would depend upon the situation of the planet ruling the house cusp. (In whole signs, it would be zero degrees of a sign.) If the MC house/sign ruled by Pisces, for example, had no planets on it, the condition of Jupiter in the chart would tell you a lot about the person's public image. If Jupiter were in a cadent position, and not being helped out by the ascendant's trine relationship with the 9th house/sign, (for example, in the 6th house position, just after after sunrise,) and lacking in essential dignity, then the native's 10th house might not fare so well.

My general impression, which might be flawed, is that with a whole-signs house system, it wasn't so important to talk about houses, because you could just talk about signs in a relative position to one another.

There's a whole lot more there when you get into the particular sources.

But I think you will find the ancient names given to particular houses, as well as planetary joys:

1 ascendant, horoscope (point,) helm (as of a ship.) Mercury
2. provisionment of life, the "casting up" from the underworld.
3. brothers, the goddess. moon
4. father, or parents
5. good fortune. Venus
6. bad fortune. Mars
7. sometimes marriage, sometimes women generally
8. death, the "casting down" into the underworld
9. the god (sun)
10. midheaven
11. good daemon (spirit.) Jupiter
12. bad daemon. (Saturn)

So obviously, Having Jupiter in the 11th house would have put some points in Jupiter's column. Having Jupiter in the cadent house of bad fortune would have subtracted points.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #253  
Unread 04-30-2017, 09:57 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,276
Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

For once, I agree with JA, on the distinctions between planets, signs, and houses. (Whoa!)

But an untenanted house is not inactive. The second rules your money. If you have children, the 5th house rules one's children whether you have planets there or not. So with an untenanted house, you look at the situation of the planet that rules the sign on the house cusp.

Using my previous example about Jupiter-- suppose you have Pisces on the MC but no planets in the 10th (could be another house with whole signs or equal houses.) But Jupiter, the traditional ruler of Pisces, is in its joy in the 11th house in Aquarius, and is nicely aspected, maybe picking up some essential dignity like being in-sect and in its own terms (if you're a trad.) Then your 10th house matters should be a lot more robust than if Jupiter is in the 6th with no essential dignity (trad) and is closely opposed by Saturn-Pluto (mod.)
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to waybread For This Useful Post:
david starling (05-01-2017)
  #254  
Unread 05-01-2017, 12:23 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,324
Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Signs are "in neutral"
SIGNS are NEUTRAL
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

until acted upon by an indicator and "put in gear",
which is when they transfer their qualities to that indicator impartially.
SIGNS remain NEUTRAL
A PLANETs expression is affected by the SIGN
It is the SIGN that affects the PLANET

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

The indicator will then be of "weak or strong" expression depending on how poorly or well its own nature relates to those Sign-qualities. There is a tendency to characterize Signs by the way the Sun expresses itself in a Sign, but each indicator has its own way of displaying Sign-characteristics, and its own level of strength when in a Sign. For example, the Sun in Aquarius is how the Sun displays Aquarian qualities, while the Moon in Aquarius displays them somewhat differently. The question in this Thread is about: (1) whether the numbered Houses connect to the Signs numbered 1 through 12 (beginning with Aries) in a meaningful way? And, (2) whether such connection causes the Houses to take on the role of Signs and transfer the Signs' qualities and rulership to the areas of life the Houses represent? Tradition says "no" to both parts. My own Modern answer is, "yes" to part one, and "no" to part two. "Yes" to the connection, and "No" to the conflation.
Your own personal Modernistic ideas may sell well if you write a book
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post:
david starling (05-01-2017)
  #255  
Unread 05-01-2017, 01:45 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,231
Smile Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
For once, I agree with JA, on the distinctions between planets, signs, and houses. (Whoa!)

But an untenanted house is not inactive. The second rules your money. If you have children, the 5th house rules one's children whether you have planets there or not. So with an untenanted house, you look at the situation of the planet that rules the sign on the house cusp.

Using my previous example about Jupiter-- suppose you have Pisces on the MC but no planets in the 10th (could be another house with whole signs or equal houses.) But Jupiter, the traditional ruler of Pisces, is in its joy in the 11th house in Aquarius, and is nicely aspected, maybe picking up some essential dignity like being in-sect and in its own terms (if you're a trad.) Then your 10th house matters should be a lot more robust than if Jupiter is in the 6th with no essential dignity (trad) and is closely opposed by Saturn-Pluto (mod.)
In Whole-sign, using your example, Pisces and H10 would have the same boundary-locations, and the M.C. could be anywhere in Pisces/H10, or even in one of the adjacent Sign/House intervals (Aquarius/H9 or Aries/H11). Since the ruler of Pisces affects H10 when it's empty of Sun, Moon, and Planets, it would ALSO affect it when a Planet IS there; but it would then have "competition" from that Planet in terms of House-rulership. So, here's a question: If, for example, Saturn is in Pisces in H10, and the ruler of Pisces is in Capricorn in H8, would Saturn and the Piscean ruler "share" rulership of both Houses? More generally, how do you determine House-rulership in Whole-sign?

Last edited by david starling; 05-01-2017 at 01:49 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #256  
Unread 05-01-2017, 03:24 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,276
Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
In Whole-sign, using your example, Pisces and H10 would have the same boundary-locations, and the M.C. could be anywhere in Pisces/H10, or even in one of the adjacent Sign/House intervals (Aquarius/H9 or Aries/H11). Since the ruler of Pisces affects H10 when it's empty of Sun, Moon, and Planets, it would ALSO affect it when a Planet IS there; but it would then have "competition" from that Planet in terms of House-rulership. So, here's a question: If, for example, Saturn is in Pisces in H10, and the ruler of Pisces is in Capricorn in H8, would Saturn and the Piscean ruler "share" rulership of both Houses? More generally, how do you determine House-rulership in Whole-sign?
I agree with the first part of your post, but then a planet in the 10th house and the house cusp ruler are not necessarily in competition. The planet ruling the sign on a house cusp is called the house cusp ruler or "lord." A different planet in that house may be important in other ways, but it is not the designated house ruler/lord.

You might find little competition between the lord and his tenant. They might be in mutual reception, or making a nice sextile between the 10th and the 8th houses. They might not have a relationship to speak of, or it might be troubled in some way-- maybe they're squared, for example.

In whole signs, because each house would start at 0 degrees of the sign on its cusp, the sign ruler and house cusp ruler would be identical.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to waybread For This Useful Post:
david starling (05-01-2017)
  #257  
Unread 05-01-2017, 12:39 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,324
Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

In whole signs, because each house would start at 0 degrees of the sign
on its cusp,
the sign ruler
and house cusp ruler
would be identical.

The original meaning of the word cusp
as related to Whole Sign Houses
was that
the original use of whole sign houses
involved the use of a "sensitive point" aka "cusp"
within each house
that was at the same degree as the ascendant
.

Transits to this point could produce events.
Additionally there were the ingresses into signs
Thus, Ancient Astrologers accurately predicted events while using Whole Sign houses
and without the use of Placidus
(whose ancestors had not yet been born).
Placidus was unknown at the time of the inception of Whole Sign Houses
- the original house system that has been used
to time and predict events since ancient astrological times

Chris Brennan wrote the following in 2007
Some scholars such as Jim Tester have pointed out that
the development of the houses in the Hellenistic period may have been partially motivated
by an earlier Egyptian tradition of decanic astrology

which appears to have assigned certain topics such as livelihood, illness, marriage, children
to specific portions of the diurnal rotation.
This Egyptian tradition was then synthesized with the Mesopotamian system
of the 12 signs of the zodiac.


__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #258  
Unread 05-01-2017, 12:48 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,324
Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

In Whole-sign, using your example, Pisces and H10 would have the same boundary-locations, and the M.C. could be anywhere in Pisces/H10, or even in one of the adjacent Sign/House intervals (Aquarius/H9 or Aries/H11). Since the ruler of Pisces affects H10 when it's empty of Sun, Moon, and Planets, it would ALSO affect it when a Planet IS there; but it would then have "competition" from that Planet in terms of House-rulership. So, here's a question: If, for example, Saturn is in Pisces in H10, and the ruler of Pisces is in Capricorn in H8, would Saturn and the Piscean ruler "share" rulership of both Houses? More generally, how do you determine House-rulership in Whole-sign?
House rulership in Wholesigns is unambiguous

i.e.
Since one whole sign = one whole house

then
one whole house is ruled by the ruler of that one whole sign


you said if Saturn is in Pisces in 10th
and domicile ruler of Pisces - Jupiter - is in Capricorn 8th
then there may be "shared rulership" of BOTH houses

BUT
you are describing MUTUAL RECEPTION - not "shared rulership"
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post:
david starling (05-01-2017)
  #259  
Unread 05-01-2017, 10:08 PM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,231
Smile Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
House rulership in Wholesigns is unambiguous

i.e.
Since one whole sign = one whole house

then
one whole house is ruled by the ruler of that one whole sign


you said if Saturn is in Pisces in 10th
and domicile ruler of Pisces - Jupiter - is in Capricorn 8th
then there may be "shared rulership" of BOTH houses

BUT
you are describing MUTUAL RECEPTION - not "shared rulership"
Terminology aside, I would see Saturn in H10 as putting pressure and restrictions on the H10 area of life. Saturn would be somewhat weakened in Pisces, and by nature, the House-ruler Jupiter would further intercede against the harshness of Saturn. But, Jupiter itself is somewhat weakened by it being in Capricorn. So, how does this particular resolution of forces affect activities in the H10 arena? Is Mutual Reception always harmonious, or does that depend on the innate characteristics of the Planets involved? For example, would Mutual Reception in this case cause Jupiter and Saturn to be mutually respectful, but still at odds as far as H10 House conditions are concerned?

Last edited by david starling; 05-01-2017 at 10:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #260  
Unread 05-01-2017, 10:38 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,324
Re: Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Terminology aside, I would see Saturn in H10 as putting pressure and restrictions on the H10 area of life. Saturn would be somewhat weakened in Pisces, and by nature, the House-ruler Jupiter would further intercede against the harshness of Saturn. But, Jupiter itself is somewhat weakened by it being in Capricorn. So, how does this particular resolution of forces affect activities in the H10 arena? Is Mutual Reception always harmonious, or does that depend on the innate characteristics of the Planets involved? For example, would Mutual Reception in this case cause Jupiter and Saturn to be mutually respectful, but still at odds as far as H10 House conditions are concerned?
All the details on RECEPTION including MUTUAL RECEPTION
at
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig6.html
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post:
david starling (05-01-2017)
  #261  
Unread 05-08-2017, 09:15 PM
Yaki Yaki is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 4
Re: sign modifies planet, to waybread

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
waybread,

You asked:


I think of it as sign modifies planet. To me prepositional phrases are too "messy" (must be a Virgo thing). So you get "challenging enjoyment" focused on spirituality/ aloneness (using your alternative word suggestion). I like to use "spirituality" simply because it seems to me as one of the best ways to use Pisces/Neptune/12th house. As you say, more frequently this is used for deception/aloneness/addictions/escapism/etc.

Astro-simply,

Tim
I liked the yoga example,

I have venus in aries - 12th house, and I recognize a lot of aries qualities on venus such as: love at first sight, like to be the active partner, like challenges, competitive, primitive taste in women and in personal style.

in my case the 12th house brings things in to the dark. clandestine love affairs, tendency to hide my personality, also have a spiritual need to be alone with my creativity (that would be my "yoga" as in the example.) not much luck in love in the beginning of life.

I think in general planets in 12th house takes time to bring out their true nature, things gets better with time for energies in 12th house....
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
agree, house, placements, positions, sign

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 10:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.