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  #1  
Unread 02-13-2013, 07:15 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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How To View Natal Chart In Whole Signs, Alacabitius, Placidus & Other House Systems

Many times on threads too numerous to mention, the question of alternative house systems is raised so I have opened this thread to illustrate for those who are unaware of that fact, that it is possible to create a natal chart using more than one house system


QUOTE:

“In no other area of astrology is there so much mess and confusion than in the area of the so-called 'houses'.

There are at least twenty or thirty different house systems or means of dividing the so-called 'birth chart' into twelve segments of life activity"




To verify for yourself that the house location of any planet is entirely dependent on the house system chosen:

if on astro.com one chooses 'Extended Chart Selection' page,
then clicking on where it says 'house systems' offers a drop down menu of fourteen different house systems to choose from
– Placidus is just the default


For example, selecting 'whole signs' and clicking on 'view natal chart' displays a natal chart using whole signs. Notice that one whole sign = one whole house. Whole signs is the original house system as explained at http://www.librarising.com/astrology...ignhouses.html


"The more commonly known house systems are:

Whole signs(oldest)

Equal House(1st century BC)
Porphyry(3rd century AD)
Alcabitus(6th century)
Campanus(13th century)
Regiomantus(14th century)
Placidus(17th century)
Koch(20th century)

Others include:
Meridian(Midheaven), Topocentric, Morinus, Horizontal, Geodetic, Zodiacal, Svarogish, Krusinski, and so on”


“....In astrology, houses, mansions, or domains, are supposed to represent general areas of life activity.

They are the grounding areas or arenas of expression for the planets.

There are generally twelve houses, although in extreme northern or southern latitudes there can be ten, depending on the house system used”

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  #2  
Unread 02-14-2013, 04:42 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: How To View Natal Chart In Whole Signs, Alacabitius, Placidus & Other House Syste

Great that you thought to provide this information for our AW memebers and visitors.

I vote to make this an "informational sticky"!!
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  #3  
Unread 10-25-2013, 05:32 AM
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Re: How To View Natal Chart In Whole Signs, Alacabitius, Placidus & Other House Syste

Some historical notes on house systems:

1. The Porphyry system was mentioned briefly by Valens around 160 AD (2nd century), and he attributes the system to an otherwise unknown astrologer named Orion, so this system probably originated in the early 2nd or late 1st century (my conjecture). This is the oldest known quadrant house system (uses ASC and MC as 1st and 10th cusps), and according to Valens was born of the observation that planets in the first third of a quadrant act powerfully, those in the middle third moderately, and in the final third of a quadrant, weakly. It has the advantage that in high latitudes, as long as the Ascendant and Midheaven can be reliably ascertained, the houses between MC and Asc, and Asc and IC, are of equal size. It is an ecliptical system.

2. The Alcabitius system became popular among the Europeans with the translation of Alcabitius' Introduction to the Art of Judgments of the Stars by John of Seville after the Christian conquest of Toledo (12th century.) The first mention of the system, with an example horoscope is from 428 AD by Rhetorius.

3. The Alcabitius system was the prevalent one in Europe from its introduction in the 12th century until the publication and wide distribution (thanks to the printing press) of the Regiomontanus system in 1490. The Regiomontanus system was used by most European astrologers (printed tables were handy) from 1500 forward.

4. Campanus devised his system, rather unusual in that it is based on division of the prime vertical, in the latter half of the 13th century. It was not used much, but was revived in the 20th century and advocated by folks like Rudhyar and Fagan. I like the system philosophically (use of the prime vertical produces an "apparent sky" set of houses for the locality that makes sense to me), but it is subject to extreme distortion in higher latitudes.

5. According to Holden, Ibn Ezra explained how to calculate Placidus house cusps 500 years before Placidus re-invented them around 1650. The Placidus system of houses became popular primarily in England in the 19th century, presumably due to the availability of printed tables. I have never found the who and when of those supposed tables.

Which system to use? I am not going to advocate one system over another.
The differences in house systems are mathematical (depending on the basis of the system and the method of its calculation), and philosophical. Should houses be based on the ecliptic, the equator, the prime vertical or some other great circle, or on time, or....? Should houses be constructed for the center of the Earth or for its surface? Put a dozen astrologers in a closed room and start them discussing house systems, and watch the fur fly. Silly.

I do my best to base my own methods on results observed. I have used Placidus for 40 years and it works. I have watched the transits of slow-moving planets as they change houses correspond with events in time to within a day or two many times, and that is powerful testimony to the efficacy of Placidus. Dr. Farr says he switched to Whole Sign and it works better. I think a beginning student would do well with one of those two systems...but I haven't tried them all, or even "many".

Last edited by greybeard; 10-25-2013 at 05:40 AM.
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Unread 10-25-2013, 06:17 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: How To View Natal Chart In Whole Signs, Alacabitius, Placidus & Other House Syste

While early Modernist pioneer Charles Carter used a variation of Equal House, he had a great deal of admiration for the Campanus format (the advocate of tropical Vedic astrology, Ernst Wilhelm, and many of his students, also use the Campanus house format) Carter also had particular respect for Placidus cusps, not for domification, but as being very useful for gaining additional insights into a chart-especially in mundane charts-and for predictive timing purposes.
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  #5  
Unread 10-25-2013, 12:45 PM
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Re: How To View Natal Chart In Whole Signs, Alacabitius, Placidus & Other House Syste

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Cusps:

Today (and for the past thousand years or so) we define cusps as "borders" (coasts), but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp": it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids) and the point of a sword-so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something, and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point"; now, when quadrant systems were developed, this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning", which later came to mean its "border", ie, the "border" between one house and the other. And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps) for various prognostic applications (Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events, the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results, among the various quadrant house systems)

But now notice this: in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all, and never were so regarded! In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning, not as a "border" but rather as A POINT-and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house, was the sensitive point of that house, viz, the sensitive point in whole sign houses-each house-that is the "cusp" of each house-is a direct projection from the ascending degree.
Example:
-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp") in the whole sign houses of this chart?
Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps" (sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point") that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc, and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)
Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything, but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree) for timing (and other) delineative purposes.

Whole sign suddenly vanished (both in the West and in Vedic astrology) during the same period of time-ie, late 8th to early 9th century-this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices, rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign) by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West, and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

I quite agree with Waybread in the statement, "so what?" (if old time astrologers did or didn't do something) For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign-it worked better (FOR ME) I could care less if it were the oldest house system (which it is) or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago: only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me (ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above, does it work (producing delineations and predicitions) better than what I have previously been doing?
Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched; but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it, except for beginners-to you who might just be starting out, I would say: try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you...
When delineated with as originally intended
whole sign has clear advantages over the more than thirty house systems that followed it

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
I think the more you experiment with whole sign, the more you will come to value it: that's what happened to me-I had used Placidus for over 30 years, before I first learned about whole sign (in the late 1990's) Experiments with it soon convinced me of its superior overall accuracy. I was later to discover that Jaimini astrology had always used whole sign, right up to the present time (whereas in Parasara-mainstream Vedic-whole sign had been replaced early on by (the closely related) Equal house system, and around the 11th century the quadrant sripati bhava system (almost identical to the Porphyry system of the West) entered the picture (and is very prominent in mainstream Vedic today)...
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  #6  
Unread 10-20-2015, 12:05 AM
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Re: How To View Natal Chart In Whole Signs, Alacabitius, Placidus & Other House Syste

Ya know,
I think we make this MUCH more complicated than it needs to be.

YOu can get a pretty good reading just putting in the 4 angles, the N NOde sign, the Sun and Moon in an approx place (not necessarily exactly in the particular house)....

The first 4 houses (1st quadrant) are very personally descriptive. The next quadrant are about creative output and identity. The 3rd quadrant is mostly about "others" ....their identities, values and also your beliefs about where you fit in to the life/lives of 'the other'.
And the 4th quadrant has a lot to do with accomplishment, your place in society, your outer identity and that which you have/must sacrifice to be the person you authentically are.

That's pretty general....but it is basic. I think all roads lead to Rome. Whatever house system you use can NOT change your psyche...only the 'route' you take to come to the conclusions about what your psyche contains.
LIN
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Unread 10-20-2015, 01:25 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: How To View Natal Chart In Whole Signs, Alacabitius, Placidus & Other House Syste

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lin View Post

Ya know,
I think we make this MUCH more complicated than it needs to be.

Quite.
For those who prefer 'uncomplicated' then Whole Sign houses is unambiguous

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lin View Post

YOu can get a pretty good reading just putting in the 4 angles, the N NOde sign, the Sun and Moon in an approx place (not necessarily exactly in the particular house)....

The first 4 houses (1st quadrant) are very personally descriptive. The next quadrant are about creative output and identity. The 3rd quadrant is mostly about "others" ....their identities, values and also your beliefs about where you fit in to the life/lives of 'the other'.
And the 4th quadrant has a lot to do with accomplishment, your place in society, your outer identity and that which you have/must sacrifice to be the person you authentically are.

That's pretty general....but it is basic
I think all roads lead to Rome.
Whatever house system you use can NOT change your psyche...only the 'route' you take to come to the conclusions about what your psyche contains.
LIN
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Unread 11-03-2015, 11:30 PM
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Thumbs up Re: How To View Natal Chart In Whole Signs, Alacabitius, Placidus & Other House Syste

Ever since I've studied astrology in my early twenties, I have always used placidus, I was intrigued with my stellium in the 7th Uranus, Pluto, Mercury, Mars, Venus and Sun (libra). However, if I use (whole signs) house system, it now divides some of my planets Sun, Venus and Mars into the 8th (scorpio)house. It makes major changes for those with stelliums like myself.
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Unread 01-28-2017, 07:24 AM
Freya39 Freya39 is offline
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Smile Re: How To View Natal Chart In Whole Signs, Alacabitius, Placidus & Other House Syste

I have always used Equal House System and for me seems to be the perfect method.
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Unread 04-21-2017, 04:12 PM
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Re: How To View Natal Chart In Whole Signs, Alacabitius, Placidus & Other House Syste

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post

Yes the BORDERS of the houses in whole sign are all 0;
but the CUSP
-originally meaning the "point" of the house, NOT its BORDER
-is and always has been (since the time of the pre-house Circle of the Athela)
-a projection of the ascending degree into each subsequent house:
this is well established in, for example,
commentaries to the works of Paulus Alexandrianus (4th century CE) by Heliodorus:
astrodienst does not follow the projection of the ascendant as the cusp (sensitive point)
in subsequent houses in its charting format for whole sign houses
because quite simply they don't know any better
(just as for a very long time astrodienst did not include the Manilius decans as a chart drawing option)...

Since converting from Placidus to whole sign (late 1990's)
it has always been my practice to consider the cusp of whole sign houses
as the sensitive degree of each house, projected from the ascending degree:
I got this originally from the works of Robert Hand, and later from my study of Paulus Alexandrianus
and his commentator, and also from various contemporary authors in their works
describing the practice of Greco-Roman astrology,
so its not something I made up:
if one does not believe in the historical use of the ascending degree as the sensitive point (cusp)
of subsequent houses as part and parcel of the whole sign house format,
then one is simply ignoring what is already written and published
about this aspect of the whole sign house format.

dr. farr I'm updating the thread
with the very useful information synopsis you provided today
at
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...&postcount=223
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