Do you have a bowl pattern chart and what is your "cutting planet"?

Well Orca, unlike your other astrologer friends, I happen to be a determinist. I think your horoscope will live itself out with or without your cooperation. I don't think you, or anyone else, have the power to "develop the attributes of one’s North Node [will bring fulfilment in life and that following the tendencies of the South Node will bring about failure or disappointment."] She writes that one must disregard the tendencies of the South Node and focus on developing the tendencies of the North Node. It is just my personal opinion, but I think Ms. Spiller is full of good old-fashion oatmeal.

As far as the available evidence (what I have seen of life in the past 70 years) takes me, I did not choose this life, nor did I have power over my birth, or the early years of my life (which had a great deal to do with who I am today), and I have no power over my coming death. The stars and planets have no such power over themselves, nor does a drop of rain, or any living creature apart from a human being. I wonder why a human being should be the only creature to hold such vast power as to be able to change itself and its destiny.

So I think that I am not the one you want to ask about these things, for I won't be giving you the answers you want to hear.

You say, "What I'm gathering from all of this information is that I'm suppose to suppress the influence of my cutting planet." You propose to suppress the most powerful energy within you, the energy of the most powerful and relentless planet in the heavens? Lotsa luck. Where do you intend to divert that energy? I think it was Newton, or one of his cult, who said "energy is never lost." If it isn't lost, it has to go somewhere, do something. And believe me friend, Pluto's energy is no toy.

Might I suggest that a more fruitful path than self-immolation can be found in self-discovery?

It is only my personal opinion, but I think a person must be either exceedingly arrogant or exceedingly naive to believe that they can transform themselves into something other than what they are by force of will.

The Hindu astrologers, who place the greatest importance on the nodes of the Moon, have a very different view of their nature and action than does Ms. Spiller. I would lean toward the Hindus myself.

May I quote Manilius (1st century Roman astrologer who was one of the fathers of modern western astrology) for you?
"Fate rules the world; all things stand fixed by its immutable laws.
And the long ages are assigned a predestined course of events.
At birth our death is sealed, and our end is consequent upon our beginning.
Fate is the source of riches and kingdoms, and the more frequent poverty.
By fate are men, at birth, given their skills and characters,
their merits and defects, their losses and gains.
No one can renounce what is bestowed, or possess what is denied.
No man, by prayer, may seize fortune if it demur, or escape if it draw nigh.
Each one must bear his appointed lot."

Well, enough of my blathering. I will leave you to cook up your witch's brew.

Thankyou very much for your insight.

It is only my personal opinion, but I think a person must be either exceedingly arrogant or exceedingly naive to believe that they can transform themselves into something other than what they are by force of will.

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Interesting you say this inconjuction with...

You propose to suppress the most powerful energy within you, the energy of the most powerful and relentless planet in the heavens?

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Because, Pluto is the planet assosiated with Transformation, Change, Metamorphosis, Endings and New Beginnings, Upheaval...

Throughout my life to this point I would say "transformation" has actually been a big theme in my life and perhaps "transformation" is the very thing I cannot fight against. No matter how hard I try. So it does make sense that it's my cutting planet.

I think I just need to embrace the power for good in Pluto. To help others to change for the better, reach higher levels of consciousness and destroy what's outdated or no longer required.

I suppose that's a good thing to do with one's life....

About the same as weeding the garden, changing the baby, reading a good book.

What will be will be (hey, I think I'll write a song about that.....let's see -- Que sera, sera?)... Why not just enjoy the adventure, ride the wave, smell the sage on the desert after a rain?

I guess I have no ambition.... I have no need to invent the cure for malaria, heal the world's broken heart, give sight to the blind... Just to look at a star-filled night sky, or taste the water of a mountain stream, or listen to the corn grow......and think WOW! is enough for me. I am alive and get to see this wondrous Creation.

I would guess that a cutting Pluto is quite interested in power and its uses.....

You have been infected by the New Age virus. Tell us, just what is "transformation"? Does this mean the Frog turns into Prince Charming? Does the sow's ear become the silk purse? Just how does this transformation that has been part and parcel of your long life work?

What sort of power does Pluto hold? In order for "New Beginings" to come along, it is a pretty good bet that concurrent with them comes Destruction. Pluto may be all those high-sounding things you list...but you sure did omit a lot of things that Pluto is or brings, and some of those things are not quite so pleasant.

Pluto rules outcasts and what is rejected... even the astronomers in Prague rejected him and cast him out of the Royal Order of Planets -- it is his nature. He brings isolation and solitude. He lives way out there (in the solar system) where it's really dark and lonely and life is harsh and desolate. Pluto is checkmate. I love Van Gogh's painting The Prisoners' Walk; it is so very Plutonian, and poor Van Gogh knew about that -- he painted himself into that picture. Pluto knows no middle ground; he can bring an impregnable fearlessness, or abject terror...it is unlikely that his effects will fall somewhere between the two extremes.

Higher consciousness is attained by full contact with reality, not with unrealistic and idealistic longings. It is true that the experiences brought by Pluto can transport us beyond "this world", but as some unemployed Jewish carpenter once said, "... strait is the gate and narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Before the Resurrection came the Via Dolorosa and the Crucifixion; taunting and ridicule, an onerous weight, a crown of thorns, nails through the flesh, a lance in the side, gall to drink.... How powerful is your longing for "higher consciouness" and "transformation"... return from the dead, overcoming the grave? There ain't no free lunch. Everything has a price. To make a deal with Pluto is a bit like selling your soul to Old Nick. And the contract doesn't carry a "Money-back Guarantee" clause, more's the pity.

Yeah... I would say I am interested in power at several different levels.

Internal power: overcoming fear, the constant struggle between one's own ego and soul, how to get the best out of one's self. I often feel "if I can't be the best, why bother?"

I am also interested in power struggles in politics, religion, within organisations I'm involved with and so forth...

My Pluto cutting planet is in the 7th house, so power struggles within all kinds of relationships as well as the importance of justice/ of karma is another important theme for me.

Just to look at a star-filled night sky, or taste the water of a mountain stream, or listen to the corn grow

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I enjoy experiencing natural wonders too. But I couldn't do that forever. Because a part of me needs to be focused on something: usually on some goal I wish to attain and goals I pursue are generally not what I'd consider to be mediocre goals.

I thought you be interested to know after what you quoted from Manilius, the 1st century Roman astrologer, and after you mentioned 'Que sera, sera' that I actually have the words "Alea Iacta Est" tattooed stridently across my forearm.


Again, thankyou for your insight on this thread.

When one wishes to know, via astrology, what the casting of the dice will bring, he looks to the 4th House, which is the house of the inevitable and final outcome.

What Caesar said in effect was "All or Nothing", which is certainly Pluto.

What is transformation? You ask.

I said I do feel transformation has been a theme throughout my life.

I'll cut it down into segments of my life for you... I've transformed my self from one end of the spectrum to the other from being an aggressive masculine personality on a sporting field to being a refined feminine personality. I've often been out dressed as a female and not in a "he's obviously a crossdresser kind of way", in a "I'm not even going to question that isn't a woman" kind of way. I've previously thought the fact that I have a very masculine and a very feminine side have something to do with my venus/mars conjunction but this Plutonian/transformation thing seems to make a lot of sense.

During my path in music I've gone from being in stage musicals, to being in hard rock bands, to singing classical art songs and opera, to death metal, to electronica. Most people don't cross boundaries in that way.

I'm very good at imitating accents, to the point where one night I'll just decide to be Irish for a night or South African... I can do a flawless Japanese accent as well, but looking Japanese is tough.

There has been a few periods of my life already where I've gone from being interested in one set of activities to then completely becoming interested in other things entirely.

I've also had a big interest in spiritual transformation through religion and meditation. I've been a personal trainer which has helped me to transform people's body shape, to transform people's habits.

Personally I've gone from someone that used to smoke loads, drink loads, eat loads of junk food all the time to being completely vegan and never touching animal products, never smoking and I'll say hardly drinking.

I can't think of an aspect of my life that has never been transformed in some way.

When I was young I was known as being an extremely extroverted young kid, but at some point I became 'the life of the party'. I've gone from feeling powerless at times to feeling very powerful at other times. I've gone from being someone who was often afraid to someone that has fire-walked and sky dived.

Is it a big enough theme in my life for you?

Death... Destruction... Darkness...

I think there's a fair bit of these themes in my life and even more so in my thoughts and subconscious, but a lot of it is probably too dark for this forum.


My Aries ascendant is telling me it's time "to get with things", I feel I've got the answers I came for now. I hope you find the answers that you seek...

greybeard said:

What Caesar said in effect was "All or Nothing", which is certainly Pluto.

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Yes... from the crossing of the Rubicon, Julius decided that he would take his army back to Rome and seize power from Pompey.

At that point he decided "I'M GOING TO DO THIS and whatever happens happens."

Echuca, Victoria? Whose main landmark is the dock on the Murray?

I had never equated "variety" with "transformation" before. I should be more adventurous.

I had thought of transformation as perhaps metamorphosis -- like the ugly opium-smoking caterpillar actually becoming an iridescent blue butterfly...

Or crude oil becoming a plastic drinking cup. Maybe Paul becoming a Christian.

And yes, that interesting Mars/Venus conjunction just might lead to a bit of gender dimorphism...sesquicuadrate Saturn.

Interesting how the Bowl pattern is wholly above the horizon, inverted and just pouring itself out, emptying itself in a big splash.

Goodness, variety in life? I have been a nurseryman, an English teacher, a shrimp fisherman, a carpenter, a vacuum cleaner salesman, a cab driver, a cowboy, supervisor of a home for unwanted children...My hobbies have ranged from surf fishing to bread baking, from collecting snakes to spelunking, genealogy to gardening, studying history to sampling wine and cheese. Lots of people live lives of variety. That's not even close to transformation.

I can't recall dressing as a woman, but once in junior high school I volunteered as the demonstration model for an eyelash-curling machine. The poor girl had come to class (our assignment that day: demonstrate a product) with this eyelash curler. But she hadn't thought of arranging for a model. None of the girls would volunteer -- they didn't want anyone messing up their lashes; and none of the guys would volunteer for macho reasons. Well, heck, I felt sorry for her. She was just standing there and no one would help her. So I walked up there and let her use me as the guinea pig. Funny thing, none of the guys laughed at me or teased me. But if they had, I would have batted my eyelashes at them... Who knows, that could have been a life-transforming experience.

greybeard said:

Interesting how the Bowl pattern is wholly above the horizon, inverted and just pouring itself out, emptying itself in a big splash.

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What do you think that might imply?

In astrology, what you see is what you get. What can be said of the horoscope is also true of the native. Abraham Lincoln had such a chart, as did Queen Victoria.

It indicates a total emptying of the contents of self into the creative sustainment of what becomes of importance to you. It is the closest thing to a single indicator of the highest spiritual estate that is available in astrology -- to attain to high spiriutuality one must empty the self. In the martial arts, it is the empty mind. The connection of this house position of the Bowl (its tilt with respect to the axes of the chart) to the Midheaven can be taken to indicate some form of mastery, of "highest authority." The symbolism fits well with the cutting Pluto, whose key meaning when so strengthened is "Transcendence."

Your chart is deeply concerned with "ego". (Aries rising, Mars in Aries tightly conjunct Venus in 12th, Mercury combust [highly subjective, "self-consumed" mental processes].
The Moon is in its dying phase, suggesting that the life is somehow given to producing seed for the future coupled with a sense of self-sacrifice. [Also shown, multiple relationships of intense nature, each of which brings deep lessons to you.]

Mars is not only lord of the Aries horoscope, but also final dispositor of the map. The four angles are Cardinal, the cutting planet in an angular house, the Moon directly on the upper angle. Here is man who feels alive only when "in action." To be is to do. The powerful emphasis of Mars also implies a drive toward purification, the heart of the warrior.

The lack of a rim opposition defining your Bowl pattern implies a great deal of frustration in the course of your life. Things never seem to be in order and cause extra labor; you are met with ineptness, things and people working to your detriment behind the scenes. Your natural inclination toward power runs into some obstruction and frustration from established authority. Being top dog is important to you; subordination doesn't suit you. The only way is my way. You like to do things in a big way; success lies in never giving up. But then, you do have faith in yourself...and then, you don't.

Your first Saturn return is approaching. Saturn has now entered Scorpio. Pay attention.

OrcinusOrca said:

Thanks JUPITERASC. I did realise writing right to left is common place in many cultures. It definitely came naturally to me because I was doing it when I was 4 and 5, even though I was taught to write the "normal way" when it comes to writing English.

It's worth noting, continuing on from my last post, that Pluto (my cutting planet) started at one end of my "bowl" and as my life progresses it's gradually going from one end of the bowl to the other. I realised it will take until about the year 2080 until my cutting planet (Pluto) reaches the other side of my bowl.

So no matter how much I try to run from Pluto, Pluto's not going to ever go away. Unless I live to be over 100.

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Relax - one Pluto orbit of the sun aka 'a Pluto Return' takes 248 Earth Years OrcinusOrca

Much more important is - as greybeard highlighted:

greybeard said:

Your first Saturn return is approaching. Saturn has now entered Scorpio. Pay attention.

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Thanks heaps greybeard! I was really taken a back by such a fantastic post.

I first read this while on my phone while I was at work, I was thinking I could do a better response on my computer when I get home.

I'm home now and all I can think of saying is everything you wrote makes absolute sense to me.

Spirituality is definitely a key component of my life. I'm not really interested in religious dogma, or religious ritual...but spirituality, the study of mysticism. Which I would define as soul development. Learning to let go is a big part of that. Letting go of the ego, understanding impermanence, coming to terms with death and dying.

In essence, we begin to die the moment we are born. We spend this life preparing to die well. Nothing is permanent, but we spend much of our lives filling our time with activities and pursuits that help us elude ourselves into thinking that what we see and touch is all that matters. - from The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying.

...there's a lot of Pluto in that passage.

If you don't have the Bhagavad Gita, I recommend it. It has been my guide to spiritual growth for a very long time. Tells you everything you ever wanted to know about making popcorn. I think the very best version is the translation by Juan Mascaro, published by Penguin Books for about $10US.

Juan Mascaro was an interesting and amazing guy. He was a Spaniard, who as a kid discovered the Gita, was so taken by its message that he decided to learn Sanskrit in order to be able to read it in the mother tongue. He went on to become a professor of English at Cambridge. I happen to like the KJV of the bible; I think it is as accurate a translation as we are likely find, and I love the poetic style...poetry itself conveys meaning not availble in more prosaic language, and Mascaro did a lot of valuable work in books like that.

May I suggest you assure yourself that you keep your feet on the ground while poking your head into the clouds? In the horoscope it can be seen that the cosmic, spiritual, realm surrounds Earth, which is at center. The Spiritual is tried, tested and perfected only through manifestation as Flesh.

Yes, and my cutting planet is Mars. It's in detriment though and weakened by Saturn. I do think it drastically affects my otherwise Libra Ascendant. I find the concept of a cutting planet interesting. Mars cutting through a Libra Asc definitely I see that influence in my life. My expression is tempered no longer with Venus qualities but with Mars. Venus and Mars pretty much contradict one another. One minute I can be very feminine, sweet, diplomatic, harmonious, the next I am aggressive, assertive and impatient.