Question about frustration and prohibition

Hello astrologers,

This question is about technique, I have no particular chart in mind.

So, when I read William Lilly's definitions of frustration and prohibition, it seems to me that he says that they hinder (=make difficult) or cause tardiness (=delay) the matter. So basically, it's not a no, but a lot of effort would be required for the yes to actually come about.

Am I correct in my understanding? So far, all of the charts that I have with prohibition or frustration (which are not many) have turned out to be a no. Is it the that people involved have not made enough effort or gave up too soon? Does anyone have an example where the chart had frustration and prohibition, but a yes came about in reality after all?

Thanks in advance,
Nora

Nice to see you back on the forum. I would say that unless the significators are very strong in essential and accidental dignity and other things that the answer would be no. You have to add up the points that Lilly gives in his tables. If the sum is very positive, then something good might come of the question but otherwise no.

I once paid $175 for an horary reading from a professional astrologer. He gave one look at the chart and said "no", and proceeded to give an insightful birth chart reading. However, it turned out that the answer he gave me for the horary was incorrect. I can't get into the details of the horary here, but there's one thing I learned from an old kids' movie, which is "never say never". Sometimes
no's are no's, but at least you now have my two cents on the matter.

Kronos

the chart is not wrong.. astrologer is

It comes down to a question of free will. Does the chart indicate what will happen regardless of the efforts of the querent to the contrary? Is there no "free will" as such and is every action pre-ordained?

Lee Lehman's approach is that the chart shows what will happen if we abrogate our ability to exercise "free will". In other words, if we sit back and let events take their course, the chart shows what will happen in consequence. But if we choose to make an effort to alter the outcome in a manner more to our choosing, we can do that. The essential word here is "effort" though. The incline of the uphill struggle will vary depending on the circumstances, but changing the outcome is possible.


There again, (Lee Lehman says) charts with a very early ascendant show a high degree variability in how matters will eventually pan out. There is a high degree of 'free will energy' where matters can take unexpected turns or expectations can change dramatically.

Summery Joy said:

Hello astrologers,

This question is about technique, I have no particular chart in mind.

So, when I read William Lilly's definitions of frustration and prohibition, it seems to me that he says that they hinder (=make difficult) or cause tardiness (=delay) the matter. So basically, it's not a no, but a lot of effort would be required for the yes to actually come about.

Am I correct in my understanding? So far, all of the charts that I have with prohibition or frustration (which are not many) have turned out to be a no. Is it the that people involved have not made enough effort or gave up too soon? Does anyone have an example where the chart had frustration and prohibition, but a yes came about in reality after all?

Thanks in advance,
Nora

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Hey Nora,

I do have an interesting chart to share, there is a 'malefic' right between the two significators, but the malefic has lots of dignity. What happened was interesting, good from the point of learning!

I'm the querent, I asked about my friend. She was dating a married guy, who was separated. I was concerned she may get hurt... So I asked, will their relationship last?

I saw Mars between Mercury and Jupiter, my friend is Jupiter dignified by triplicity. In this chart Mars gets to Jupiter first. Big fat prohibition. I saw clearly that this relationship was going to end. I saw Mars and thought to myself, a fight will break out.

That's exactly what happened, about 3 months later. They had a fight about his facebook photos (notice the action in radical 3rd house).

BUT what happened next, surprised me. After about 7-8 months or so of him trying to woo her back, they got back together. They now live together and going strong.

I would say, the malefic in this case, Mars was not very malefic, because he has dignity, and he is the dipositor of both significators. Generally, I think dignity of the significators are important, specifically the accidental dignity. And dignity of the prohibitor. It is better to be prohibited by Mars in dignity, than Jupiter without dignity


edit: removing personal chart, if anyone needs to review it please contact me.

Hello Rafaella,

Thank your for the chart. Unlike you, I see a yes in it.

See, Mercury is very slow in this chart; Mars is faster than it. In fact, Mars has just separated from Mercury. Now it applies to Jupiter. That's not frustration or prohibition, that's actually Translation of Light; it is where a planet separates from one significator - by conjunction or aspect - and immediately applies to another. That means yes.

And not only is Mars highly dignified, it receives both significators. That's favorable: it is "willing" for them both to get together.

I cannot tell what Mars represents. It's the ruler of the 3rd and 10th in the radix chart (you), the 5th and 12th in your friend's turned chart, and the 6th and 11th in the guy's turned chart. I guess it could possibly mean that it was his persistent efforts (his 6th) to fulfill his wish to be with her (his 11th) that made her feel romanced enough (her 5th) to give it another try, with her fears being kept at bay (her 12th, Mars dignified). I'm actually reading into the chart for an explanation of Mars right now.

The fact remains that the chart clearly says yes.

You are right Mercury is slow here, which I didn't notice when I read it first back in 2011. But the fact shows, Mars actually did prohibit, the relationship did end. I'm not sure if Mars is translating here, because Mercury is also applying to Jupiter, albeit more slowly...This is prohibition, as far as I'm concerned.

thanks for feedback, much appreciated!

Summer Joy:

"So, when I read William Lilly's definitions of frustration and prohibition, it seems to me that he says that they hinder (=make difficult) or cause tardiness (=delay) the matter. So basically, it's not a no, but a lot of effort would be required for the yes to actually come about."

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Part of the problem is as novices, when we begin our horary journey we tend to think the first aspect to the lord of the matter will answer the horary. Then we start studying how perplexing and confusing horary is in concepts like Frustration and Prohibition, ...yet we many times fail to balance the horary by exploring every angle.

Clavis Astrologiae Elimata or a Key to the Whole Art of Astrology V1 by HENRY COLEY

CHAP IX.​

OF THE ESSENTIAL, AND ACCIDENTAL​

DIGNITIES OF THE PLANETS, &C.​

To be well acquainted how a Planet is dignified, or debilitated in any part of the Heavens, is absolutely (p.) necessary for any Student in this Art; for​

without this knowledge no part of Astrologie can be well understood; know therefore that a Planet is said to be essentially dignified when he is posited in his own House, Exaltation, or Triplicity, a Table whereof with its explaination immediately follows,....<SNIP>...​

​

​

​

. . . such as afflict them Infortun[] and evil. If ♄ Lord of the Asc. be in the Asc. and free from afflictions he is a . . . ♂ . . . being Lord of a good House, and behold[ out] of a good House. . . .]​

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Henry Coley lays it out that one has to carefully weigh many factors to correctly arrive at an honest evaluation:

I can't seem to copy the text accurately that follows this quote, the table, but you may reference this from page 89-90.

This may shed more light on the various factors that contribute to frustration and prohibition as neither factor alone can adequately answer a horary.

hi everyone

so here is my thought on this subject

check the moon
the dignities and reception
also which houses are involved

and esp any warnings against the judgement.

I will reply to you, Summer Joy, little bit later today i am in the middle of studying for midterm.. I got your pm

It was hard to post the prior document from Henry Coley But Wiam Ramesey has a better table found on pages 159 and 160 of his book:

[PDF]William Ramsey - Astrology Restored.pdf - Portal spiritual

portalspiritual.com/ebook/.../William%20Ramsey%20-%20Astrology%20R...
THE STARS WHEREIN THE WHOLE ART OF. ASTROLOGY. 116. THE RIGHT HONOURABLE AND Truly Noble both for Learning and Parts, William. Seymour,.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/EBOO...red-Bilingual-William-Ramesey/1784003141.html

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http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html

Since this book was wrote in the 1600s it is under PUBLIC DOMAIN and can be copied:

Ramesey, WilliamAstrology Restored1653

Astrologia Medieval

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Yet the pages are NOT 159-160 as in prior document.

This makes a great difference in understanding why Prohibition and Frustration can Not be relied upon alone!

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