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  #1  
Unread 01-11-2021, 02:27 AM
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A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

I've seen in other forums out there that his chart allegedly describes his personality well, but I think many people are mistaken. They are using generalizations.

Like, someone said something along the lines of: "He has North Node conjunct the Sun - and that checks out, 'cause his ego is very developed", but if anything he's the most narcissistic, short-sighted person I've ever seen.

How is it that the North Node, significator of opportunity, spiritual development and growth, has caused his ego to be so blown out of proportion?

Many people love to use generalizations and that astrology really is a million times deeper than most people give credit. The trendy way of approaching astrology, the "aries=mars=1st house", is the most ridiculous thing ever. You can't, for a fact, say that's true and at the same time think astrology is real. You can delude yourself into believing so, but methinks that's far from the truth.

So anywho, could anyone kindly explain why, you personally believe that he has that placement and behaves like he does?

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Unread 01-11-2021, 06:33 AM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

I would put sun-Uranus-NN in the 10th house a little differently.

The NN shows where your growth lies. It may or may not be spiritual. For many people, depending upon their horoscope, it won't be.

Uranus can be disruptive, a real s**t-disturber.

In modern astrology, when a planet or sensitive point conjuncts the sun (one's identity,) it show what the person identifies (sun) with.

Then the 10th house deals with one's public image as well as vocation in life.

If we put these together, then Trump's personal growth (NN) and ego (sun) are tied up with his need to be a s**t-disturber in a highly public (10th house) way.

Trump also has some really interesting fixed star conjunctions with his natal planets. You can check them out on this website: https://www.constellationsofwords.com/

So these are real "I gotta be me!" placements.
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Unread 01-11-2021, 06:57 AM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
I would put sun-Uranus-NN in the 10th house a little differently.

The NN shows where your growth lies. It may or may not be spiritual. For many people, depending upon their horoscope, it won't be.

Uranus can be disruptive, a real s**t-disturber.

In modern astrology, when a planet or sensitive point conjuncts the sun (one's identity,) it show what the person identifies (sun) with.

Then the 10th house deals with one's public image as well as vocation in life.

If we put these together, then Trump's personal growth (NN) and ego (sun) are tied up with his need to be a s**t-disturber in a highly public (10th house) way.

Trump also has some really interesting fixed star conjunctions with his natal planets. You can check them out on this website: https://www.constellationsofwords.com/

So these are real "I gotta be me!" placements.
That's fair, it's a good explanation. Thanks.

However, is it not the case that Uranus represents matters far beyond the personal? As far as my understanding allows, the Sun is the converging point of the potential for life with the spiritual manifestation of identity. It's the thing that bridges otherwordly, what God means, and the personal. This should be its purest manifestation - but still, its specific significance in a person's chart is only a subsequent symbol or characteristic. Uranus are breaking points and revolutions that take place in society.

I'd ike to know a bit more about what the North Node really means. I know it's the point where the orbit of the Moon intersects the eclitpic - the Earth's own orbit - so it's where eclipses occur.

If growth by the North Node isn't always spiritual, then what kind of growth does it refer to?
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Unread 01-11-2021, 12:41 PM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by obsidianmineral View Post
I've seen in other forums out there that his chart allegedly describes his personality well, but I think many people are mistaken. They are using generalizations.

Like, someone said something along the lines of: "He has North Node conjunct the Sun - and that checks out, 'cause his ego is very developed", but if anything he's the most narcissistic, short-sighted person I've ever seen.

How is it that the North Node, significator of opportunity, spiritual development and growth, has caused his ego to be so blown out of proportion?

Many people love to use generalizations and that astrology really is a million times deeper than most people give credit. The trendy way of approaching astrology, the "aries=mars=1st house", is the most ridiculous thing ever. You can't, for a fact, say that's true and at the same time think astrology is real. You can delude yourself into believing so, but methinks that's far from the truth.

So anywho, could anyone kindly explain why, you personally believe that he has that placement and behaves like he does?
Trumps chart is viewable online at numerous sites
and is validation of
observing effects of FIXED STARS

Trump has powerful FIXED STARS conjunct natal chart angles

for example:

Trumps MARS on Ascendant
is ALSO conjunct powerful fixed star REGULUS - THE KINGMAKER

REGULUS RISING WITH MARS = Honor
fame
strong character
as well as
public prominence
and
high military command

Trump is now COMMANDER IN CHIEF of The United States of America


THE FIXED STARS IN NATAL ASTROLOGY http://constellationsofwords.com/cat...atalrobson.htm


SIDEREAL ASTROLOGER Kenneth Bowser correctly in May 2016
predicted a Trump victory
http://www.westernsiderealastrology.com/trump-news


Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr

The Trump nativity would have been called
"An Imperial Horosocope"
by the court astrologers of the Roman emperors
(prior to the 4th century CE)




CURTIS MANWARING on Trump

'....Donald Trump's ascendant is right on the fixed star Regulus
which is significant for royalty and a tendency to rise in life.
Robert Schmidt of PROJECT HINDSIGHT said many years ago that
the word for angle used in the Hellenistic texts is "kentron"
which has two meanings:
one is to be a center of activity upon which something revolves around
(why it's translated as "pivot" in some cases)

and the other is to operate as a sort of goad

or cattle prod.....' http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-f...ction2016.html





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  #5  
Unread 01-11-2021, 07:31 PM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by obsidianmineral View Post
I've seen in other forums out there that his chart allegedly describes his personality well, but I think many people are mistaken. They are using generalizations.

Like, someone said something along the lines of: "He has North Node conjunct the Sun - and that checks out, 'cause his ego is very developed", but if anything he's the most narcissistic, short-sighted person I've ever seen.

How is it that the North Node, significator of opportunity, spiritual development and growth, has caused his ego to be so blown out of proportion?

Many people love to use generalizations and that astrology really is a million times deeper than most people give credit. The trendy way of approaching astrology, the "aries=mars=1st house", is the most ridiculous thing ever. You can't, for a fact, say that's true and at the same time think astrology is real. You can delude yourself into believing so, but methinks that's far from the truth.

So anywho, could anyone kindly explain why, you personally believe that he has that placement and behaves like he does?
Keep in mind also that you are referring to the public image of the person.
Have you ever met Trump in person? Have you had dinner with him?
It's very difficult to judge a public person's inner self by the public image you see on the news, tv, etc. If you see any of the interviews with people who worked for or with him before his presidency you will have a very different image.
This applies to all public figures.
Because we are looking at their ascendents and their midheavens.
These are the areas that are projected to us.
The inner workings an be very different.
This applies to Brad Pitt, George Clooney, John Wayne, etc etc etc.
Consider how shocked we have been when the "real" personality of a public figure is revealed. Famous case in point, Lady Diana with her inner emotional instability. Look at some of the most famous stars, the beautiful Vivien Leigh who suffered schizophrenia, Joan Crawford and her cruelty.
So, the sun/north node is a lucky position, things work out, and he has always been a wealthy man. Uranus gives him vision, he is the first president not to have begun a war, and he has masterminded the current ongoing Middle East pacts that are bringing peace to the area. To name just two achievements.
Has he faults? Look to the moon conjunct south node, where he gives way. It gives him intuition and a restless mind as well as making him oversensitive.
We have to peel the layers and dig towards the inner workings to really understand. One or two aspects are not enough.
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  #6  
Unread 01-12-2021, 06:10 AM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by obsidianmineral View Post
That's fair, it's a good explanation. Thanks.

However, is it not the case that Uranus represents matters far beyond the personal? As far as my understanding allows, the Sun is the converging point of the potential for life with the spiritual manifestation of identity. It's the thing that bridges otherwordly, what God means, and the personal. This should be its purest manifestation - but still, its specific significance in a person's chart is only a subsequent symbol or characteristic. Uranus are breaking points and revolutions that take place in society.

I'd ike to know a bit more about what the North Node really means. I know it's the point where the orbit of the Moon intersects the eclitpic - the Earth's own orbit - so it's where eclipses occur.

If growth by the North Node isn't always spiritual, then what kind of growth does it refer to?
I don't accept the idea that the modern outer planets are impersonal. Time-wise, they are generational in that everyone born in the same year will have them within the same narrow range of degrees. But if Uranus is sitting on your sun, that's personal. The planets are in the chart native's natal horoscope as well as in mundane horoscopes.

My best understanding of the NN is that it shows where one's personal growth lies. The SN shows one's comfort zone. If we spend to much time there, our growth stagnates.

Most people live rather ordinary lives based in material reality. If they're atheists their orientation is not going to be spiritual. We get clues by looking at the NN sign, house, and any aspects to planets or sensitive points in the chart.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Unread 01-12-2021, 11:28 AM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

Quote:
Many people love to use generalizations and that astrology really is a million times deeper than most people give credit. The trendy way of approaching astrology, the "aries=mars=1st house", is the most ridiculous thing ever. You can't, for a fact, say that's true and at the same time think astrology is real. You can delude yourself into believing so, but methinks that's far from the truth.
Nobody checks your credentials when you visit an astrology forum, and many visitors have very minimal skill and understanding of astrology. It is not news that many posts are inadequate or worse. Plus,there are numerous dissenting schools of astrology that bring much dispute to the forums.

Quote:
the Sun is the converging point of the potential for life with the spiritual manifestation of identity. It's the thing that bridges otherwordly, what God means, and the personal. This should be its purest manifestation - but still, its specific significance in a person's chart is only a subsequent symbol or characteristic.
I'd like to see you interpret Trump's chart, or anyone else's, using that definition of Sun.

Quote:
However, is it not the case that Uranus represents matters far beyond the personal? [...] Uranus are breaking points and revolutions that take place in society.
Again, I'd hate to interpret charts using such a limited definition.

You need a good collection of books on the subject more than you need a forum. A forum cannot substitute for a good education on the matter.

When one learns physiology, one learns about the various organs of the body and the activities of each organ separately, but the organs are never used separately. They each influence the others, and their cooperation as a system is complex. Nonetheless, learning them separately in isolated description is virtually necessary in the beginning, but you won't go far if you don't progress beyond that.

Trump's Sun and Uranus and Node are part of a configuration. Sun trines Jupiter and Moon sextiles Jupiter as Sun opposes Moon and Sun sextiles Mars conjunct to the Ascendant. This configuration, situated and assembled as it is, is much more pertinent than a detached discussion about Sun alone or Uranus alone or Node alone.

Quote:
but if anything he's the most narcissistic, short-sighted person I've ever seen.
If you interpret this chart well, you will see indications that show that you are short-sighted, that show that virtually no one is as simple as your description. Without detachment, you will find astrology extremely disappointing.

You probably won't find the answers you need by asking a question at a forum.

I'll recommend some books that I think will help.

"The New Astrologer", by Martin Seymour-Smith
"The Astrologers Handbook", by Sakoian & Acker
"The Combination of Stellar Influences", by Rheinhold Ebertin
"Planets in Aspect", by Robert Pellitier
"The Principles of Astrology", by C. E. O. Carter
"Horoscope Symbols", by Robert Hand

Trump has been successful in many ways, and he has achieved quite a lot. If it galls you to admit it, you will soon tire of astrology and go elsewhere.

Last edited by Cary2; 01-12-2021 at 11:47 AM.
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  #8  
Unread 01-12-2021, 07:56 PM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

You began your comments on the chart with Sun/Uranus/Node in the Tenth House. While I acknowledge that such an indication is important and critical, it is not where I would start. A planet conjuncting an angle is a good place to start, and Trump has Mars on Ascendant.

This suggests that the topic of leadership will be foremost--also forceful and formidable approach to goals and aims. There may be activism and push. He may be so forceful that others are offended by him.

The same Mars is sextile the said Sun in Tenth House. This further specifies leadership.

Now that we have progressed to the Tenth House group, what does node mean since it is conjunct the other two factors that are themselves conjunct in the Tenth?

Node is a point that is important, and like other important factors, it can mean many things. An important meaning of lunar node is associations. One's associates are important to one's life, but they are not a intimate as, say, family members. The flow of people into and out of one's life is symbolized by lunar node if the people are not so intimate as spouse or family. Lunar node describes groups too. Sun conjunct node describes an important group member in a group of associates. Usually it describes the leader of the group. It can describe the leader of a community or the chief of a group of colleagues. Donald Trump has been a chief executive officer most of his life. Sun-conjunct-node in Tenth tends to symbolize that.

Sun conjunct to Uranus may be an absurd person or a genius--also a noisy person who enjoys upsets and disruptions. Sun-Uranus trine Jupiter describes a "stable genius". It increases the likelihood of material success and abundance and the likelihood of religious or spiritual concerns. Since Sun trines Jupiter and sextiles Mars, there is a Minor Grand Trine, Sun/Mars/Jupiter. He's very likely very successful, a self-styled "winner".
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Unread 01-12-2021, 10:53 PM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

Since you referenced God in your musing about the Sun symbol in astrology, I will refer to God as well.

Sun represents the concept that all of God's children deserve dignity from the very start for being children of God. Sun represents the basic dignity of each individual by virtue of God's creation.

Sun also represents creativity. Jesus said in the New Testament to his disciples and followers, "You are as gods!". As children of God, we are co-creators with God.

The Sun is nonetheless often mishandled or mismanaged. The Sun can be botched by adopting a self-importance that is unjustified. When one imagines that one deserves more than one's dignity by birthright, or when one indulges in self-aggrandizement, one is mismanaging solar energy.

When we merge again with God, we will do so with the awareness of our individual identity (Sun). Our destiny is to be one with God but also an individual in order to provide companionship which was the main thrust to our creation in the beginning.

We are important to God, but we are all equally important. That is the lesson of the Sun.

In the chart, the Sun helps to synthesize the various fragments of our identity. We have a love life, a career life, a learning life, etc. The Sun helps to orchestrate these many threads of us.

Sun shows how we try for high performance. It often signifies importance we acquire in our social lives. A prominent Sun often signifies an expert or guru or VIP within a certain field or endeavor.

Last edited by Cary2; 01-12-2021 at 10:55 PM.
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  #10  
Unread 01-14-2021, 03:44 PM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

His Sun, Moon, and Ascendant are in, arguably, the three most egoist signs. I don't really see the mystery here.




Quote:
Originally Posted by obsidianmineral View Post
The trendy way of approaching astrology, the "aries=mars=1st house", is the most ridiculous thing ever. You can't, for a fact, say that's true and at the same time think astrology is real.
Why not?
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Unread 01-14-2021, 04:01 PM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by brainpuddle View Post
His Sun, Moon, and Ascendant are in, arguably, the three most egoist signs. I don't really see the mystery here.





Why not?
You're basing this on signs?

Geminii can be very frustrating for those who are not compatible with Geminii, but it is not a very egoistic sign, if we imagine there is such a thing as a pure Geminii.

Sagittarius can be very frustrating for those who are not compatible with Sagittarius, but as a pure Saj, it is not a very egoistic sign. They are insensitive and clumsy with the tender feelings of others, but they are often kind and funny and not very egoistic by comparison.

Of course, Leo is often guilty of pomposity and putting on airs.

I find that egotism is usually caused much more by planetary contacts than by signs alone. Most people who are accused of egotism are actually guilty of disagreeing or voting the opposite way from their accusers.

It is safe to say Trump has more than usual ego, but I think that neither Geminii nor Sagittarius have anything to do with egotism.
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Unread 01-14-2021, 04:53 PM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cary2 View Post
You're basing this on signs?

Geminii can be very frustrating for those who are not compatible with Geminii, but it is not a very egoistic sign, if we imagine there is such a thing as a pure Geminii.

Sagittarius can be very frustrating for those who are not compatible with Sagittarius, but as a pure Saj, it is not a very egoistic sign. They are insensitive and clumsy with the tender feelings of others, but they are often kind and funny and not very egoistic by comparison.

Of course, Leo is often guilty of pomposity and putting on airs.

I find that egotism is usually caused much more by planetary contacts than by signs alone. Most people who are accused of egotism are actually guilty of disagreeing or voting the opposite way from their accusers.

It is safe to say Trump has more than usual ego, but I think that neither Geminii nor Sagittarius have anything to do with egotism.
Any sign can be frustrating for those who are incompatible. And kindness and egoism are not mutually exclusive. Nor would I say any one sign is inherently kind, kindness and cruelty can be found in anyone, regardless of sign. The signs merely give them different expressions of it.

These things aside, I think it's safe to say all fire signs have ego problems. Aries has their brazen self-fixation and personal optimism, Leo their desperate emotional denial, and Sagittarius their mindful self-assurity. Different roots, different manifestations, but ultimately issues of the ego. I have never seen anyone be able to condescend like a Sagittarius. It's a less overt form than Leo or Aries, but the fact that they're a broad minded sign that's locked into a very rigid system of value judgement, often leaves them overly sure of themselves. Sagittarius doesn't just seek higher truths, they integrate that journey into their sense of identity to the point that many seem to believe they have the answers. You could certainly classify it as kindness in that they earnestly want to teach others and have their ideas benefit all, but placing themselves in that social position in their own head, is already detaching them from a sense of spiritual or intellectual equality with others. In order to teach, one must possess what the student does not. Sagittarians fundamentally identify as teachers, it's what many feel is their natural role, socially, intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, etc. While there are definitely positive aspects of that, it can't be ignored that it does, by its very nature, place them above others in their own construct of self. Sag is a preacher, they're born behind a podium. The severity obviously varies from one person to the next, but every Sag, on some level, succumbs to a messiah complex fallacy in their processing.

Gemini succumbs to a different, but similar issue. Another, more acute manifestation of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. They identify strongly with their intellect, but often lack the fortitude and persistence of mastery, and their short-sighted, superficial nature allows them to glaze over that gaping hole in their self-perception. Essentially, a lot of Geminis will skim a Wikipedia article and declare themselves an expert. Again, it has it's advantages, a Renaissance Man is nothing to scoff at, but this absolute, textbook expression of Dunning-Kruger does inescapably become entwined with the ego. A Gemini has a deep need to feel that they know everything. As long as there's a stone unturned, it will unsettle them, but their saving grace from that very need, is that they can feel like they know something without knowing much. And what you get from this is a classic know-it-all. Geminis I would say, are not as deeply and inherently egoist as the fire signs, but my god, can they boast. They're also socially comparative people, and so it typically extends into a habit of one-uping, which we can very clearly see in Trump's speeches. I think, given it's particular style, a lot of his bragging is extremely characteristic of Gemini.
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Unread 01-14-2021, 05:25 PM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by brainpuddle View Post


Any sign can be frustrating for those who are incompatible. And kindness and egoism are not mutually exclusive. Nor would I say any one sign is inherently kind, kindness and cruelty can be found in anyone, regardless of sign. The signs merely give them different expressions of it.

These things aside, I think it's safe to say all fire signs have ego problems. Aries has their brazen self-fixation and personal optimism, Leo their desperate emotional denial, and Sagittarius their mindful self-assurity. Different roots, different manifestations, but ultimately issues of the ego. I have never seen anyone be able to condescend like a Sagittarius. It's a less overt form than Leo or Aries, but the fact that they're a broad minded sign that's locked into a very rigid system of value judgement, often leaves them overly sure of themselves. Sagittarius doesn't just seek higher truths, they integrate that journey into their sense of identity to the point that many seem to believe they have the answers. You could certainly classify it as kindness in that they earnestly want to teach others and have their ideas benefit all, but placing themselves in that social position in their own head, is already detaching them from a sense of spiritual or intellectual equality with others. In order to teach, one must possess what the student does not. Sagittarians fundamentally identify as teachers, it's what many feel is their natural role, socially, intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, etc. While there are definitely positive aspects of that, it can't be ignored that it does, by its very nature, place them above others in their own construct of self. Sag is a preacher, they're born behind a podium. The severity obviously varies from one person to the next, but every Sag, on some level, succumbs to a messiah complex fallacy in their processing.

Gemini succumbs to a different, but similar issue. Another, more acute manifestation of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. They identify strongly with their intellect, but often lack the fortitude and persistence of mastery, and their short-sighted, superficial nature allows them to glaze over that gaping hole in their self-perception. Essentially, a lot of Geminis will skim a Wikipedia article and declare themselves an expert. Again, it has it's advantages, a Renaissance Man is nothing to scoff at, but this absolute, textbook expression of Dunning-Kruger does inescapably become entwined with the ego. A Gemini has a deep need to feel that they know everything. As long as there's a stone unturned, it will unsettle them, but their saving grace from that very need, is that they can feel like they know something without knowing much. And what you get from this is a classic know-it-all. Geminis I would say, are not as deeply and inherently egoist as the fire signs, but my god, can they boast. They're also socially comparative people, and so it typically extends into a habit of one-uping, which we can very clearly see in Trump's speeches. I think, given it's particular style, a lot of his bragging is extremely characteristic of Gemini.

It's safe to say that generalisation is fun but unreliable
and
ANY of the twelve signs
"...may have ego problems..."
thus
THE TOTALITY OF THE NATAL CHART

requires consideration



.





.
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  #14  
Unread 01-14-2021, 06:03 PM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
It's safe to say that generalisation is fun but unreliable
and
ANY of the twelve signs
"...may have ego problems..."
thus
THE TOTALITY OF THE NATAL CHART

requires consideration



.





.
What is astrology, if not a science of generalization? It's all good and well to say that everyone's a snowflake, but is the point of what we do not to identify trackable patterns in human behavior?
Sure, any sign can have ego issues, and I could just as easily argue there isn't a human on this planet who doesn't, but I think it's entirely fair to say that fire signs are more prone to overt displays of it, as well as a deeper entanglement with their own ego issues in the framework of their self-concept.
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Unread 01-14-2021, 06:21 PM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

Aries and Leo come as close as any sign to appearant egotism. Aries is self-centered a bit and Leo is self-important a bit, but that is not equivalent to egotism; it's just a color in their character. When you find a case where a fire sign is obnoxious, it is usually an affliction to the sign placement that has created the egotism.

With Aries they may walk over you because they are headstrong, impulsive and insensitive. With Leo they may be sensitive to any humor that may be aimed toward them that seems to belittle them in their eyes. These are colors not inherent flaws.

A difficult stellium in one of these signs must be considered very carefully based on sign, but that would be an affliction.

I've met obnoxious Sagittarius, but it was an affliction to the Saj placement that brought it on, not the colors of Saj personality.
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Unread 01-14-2021, 07:22 PM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

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Aries and Leo come as close as any sign to appearant egotism. Aries is self-centered a bit and Leo is self-important a bit, but that is not equivalent to egotism; it's just a color in their character. When you find a case where a fire sign is obnoxious, it is usually an affliction to the sign placement that has created the egotism.

With Aries they may walk over you because they are headstrong, impulsive and insensitive. With Leo they may be sensitive to any humor that may be aimed toward them that seems to belittle them in their eyes. These are colors not inherent flaws.

A difficult stellium in one of these signs must be considered very carefully based on sign, but that would be an affliction.

I've met obnoxious Sagittarius, but it was an affliction to the Saj placement that brought it on, not the colors of Saj personality.
What is the difference between a "color" and a flaw? It seems like people here are just afraid to attribute a negative quality to any sign, which is a problem that's rampant in the astrological community on the whole. Sorry, but human nature is not all roses and sunshine, and therefore astrology isn't either.
You admit Aries is self-centered and Leo self-important. Are those not varieties of egoism? One doesn't have to be Narcissus to have an ego that conflicts with reality or wellbeing. Nor do you personally have to find them obnoxious.
As for Sag, do you agree that they identify, overtly or otherwise, as a teacher? That that is one of the most common and accurate representations of their nature?
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Unread 01-15-2021, 12:15 AM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

I have no investment in what you believe. If you want to do astrology the Sun Sign way, the simple way, I have no investment in that choice. Suit yourself.

It is not true that I am afraid to assign a negative quality to a sign. I said it is an affliction when that happens. Perhaps you have heard that there are no bad signs. When signs are bad, it is the product of affliction which is a matter of contacts between planets and points.

Again we find the neglect of contacts between planets and points, but that is the lion's share of chart interpretation. Suit yourself, but it doesn't change my mind that you disapprove.
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Unread 01-15-2021, 12:55 AM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

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I have no investment in what you believe. If you want to do astrology the Sun Sign way, the simple way, I have no investment in that choice. Suit yourself.

It is not true that I am afraid to assign a negative quality to a sign. I said it is an affliction when that happens. Perhaps you have heard that there are no bad signs. When signs are bad, it is the product of affliction which is a matter of contacts between planets and points.

Again we find the neglect of contacts between planets and points, but that is the lion's share of chart interpretation. Suit yourself, but it doesn't change my mind that you disapprove.
This literally has nothing to do with what I just said. lol

Try to see past your emotions. We could be having a good conversation.
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Unread 01-15-2021, 01:55 AM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

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This literally has nothing to do with what I just said. lol

Try to see past your emotions. We could be having a good conversation.
Dictating orders to me or diagnosing me because I disagree is a narcissistic tactic designed to put me under the thumb, a narcissistic intimidation. My reaction is the opposite. I step off the game board when it is a waste of time. There is no inducement to be under the thumb, but others will bite that hook probably. When a control freak comes calling, there are hapless victims who are sucked in. That's how narcissists expand their territory.

Last edited by Cary2; 01-15-2021 at 02:02 AM.
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Unread 01-15-2021, 05:34 AM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

Brainpuddle, are you familiar with the early books* by Steven Forrest: The Inner Sky and The Changing Sky? Highly recommended.

Basically his thesis is that each planet, sign, and house has (minimally) two natures, one empowering and one disempowering. He calls them teachers and tricksters. He also talks about successful and unsuccessful navigations of the main chart components.

I think this approach is helpful in using the chart as a tool for self-awareness, vs. loading people up with a heap of static, inviolable, negative personality traits.

Forrest's approach is dynamic, so a successful navigation is something we can work on. For example, Mars can be the athlete or the hero instead of the merely quarrelsome person.

With my Leo moon, I like the part about Leo that describes the sign as generous, playful, and noble. With my NN in Aries, I try to develop my courage. Fire signs have their benefits.

Then we don't always know whether a person operates at the level of the celestial, terrestrial, or bestial.

With a celebrity of Donald Trump's age with a known birth time, we can see how Trump's horoscope placements have played out, for good or ill.

I think a big part of Trump's character is explained by Mercury square Neptune. I think it's very hard for him to tell or even understand the truth (facts) of a situation.

*Forrest's more recent books are into evolutionary astrology. Not my cup of tea.
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Unread 01-15-2021, 02:43 PM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

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Dictating orders to me or diagnosing me because I disagree is a narcissistic tactic designed to put me under the thumb, a narcissistic intimidation. My reaction is the opposite. I step off the game board when it is a waste of time. There is no inducement to be under the thumb, but others will bite that hook probably. When a control freak comes calling, there are hapless victims who are sucked in. That's how narcissists expand their territory.
Christ dude, calm down. lol It's just an astrology discussion. It's okay that not everyone practices the way you do. And if you genuinely don't want to engage with any new ideas, you shouldn't attack people for it in the first place. Just let people do their own thing, man.
(Also you do see the irony here, right? You diagnosing me as a narcissist for disagreeing with you?)
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Unread 01-15-2021, 03:01 PM
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In many cases the presence of a planet near the nodes confuses the activity of both nodal axis and planet. The node inflates the planet and the planet colors the node very vividly. So in the case of Mr Trump who has a critical degree of Leo rising, iirc, already exaggerating the sun, the node further blows it out of proportion. Then Uranus there makes the energy very difficult to manage; outers near personal planets despite our best efforts can sometimes control us rather than the other way around.
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Unread 01-15-2021, 03:08 PM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

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Brainpuddle, are you familiar with the early books* by Steven Forrest: The Inner Sky and The Changing Sky? Highly recommended.
I'm not familiar, but it sounds potentially interesting. Knee deep in two good books at the moment and I'm a rather slow reader, but I'll add it to my list. Thanks. : )


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Basically his thesis is that each planet, sign, and house has (minimally) two natures, one empowering and one disempowering. He calls them teachers and tricksters. He also talks about successful and unsuccessful navigations of the main chart components.
I've read a little bit about that dichotomy system before. I do believe in the balance of negative and positive in all things astrological, so it appeals on some level. Though I also think that way of looking at it tends to make it... something like simultaneously black and white, instead of simply awash of shades of grey. Hm. I'm not sure I'm explaining myself well.
I guess I see dividing any placement into the "good side" and the "bad side" as undermining to the true complexity of value in ourselves. We're an intricate web, the aspects of our being playing off one another into something more dynamic and meaningful than whether we're simply doing it right or wrong. It's not dissimilar to your insistence on looking at the whole chart and it's connections to itself, rather than examining a single sign. I believe that principle can and should be applied at all levels, right down to the meaning of a single sign on its own.


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I think this approach is helpful in using the chart as a tool for self-awareness, vs. loading people up with a heap of static, inviolable, negative personality traits.

Forrest's approach is dynamic, so a successful navigation is something we can work on. For example, Mars can be the athlete or the hero instead of the merely quarrelsome person.

With my Leo moon, I like the part about Leo that describes the sign as generous, playful, and noble. With my NN in Aries, I try to develop my courage. Fire signs have their benefits.

Then we don't always know whether a person operates at the level of the celestial, terrestrial, or bestial.
I would say confronting the negative in ourselves is absolutely necessary for self-awareness. It's not like I think everything in astrology is negative, I even included some disclaimers in my original text about Sag and Gemini having advantages out of the very same mindset. But the presence of such advantages and the potential for growth are no reason not to address the likely negatives of any sign or combination of signs.
For instance, as a Taurus Sun, I feel I've achieved a pretty solid level of zen, all things considered. But that temper, that need to dominate, is still in me. I haven't grown as I have because the negative isn't there, my growth has blossomed from the negative, it is reliant on its existence, it's made meaningful by it. The perspective, the mental dynamic, the weaknesses, the tendencies, those are all still with me and always will be. And if I wasn't honest with myself about that, I couldn't possibly have grown in the first place. I see focusing solely on positive traits and potential for growth as ultimately pandering and unhelpful.


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I think a big part of Trump's character is explained by Mercury square Neptune. I think it's very hard for him to tell or even understand the truth (facts) of a situation.
I definitely agree that it is, but in my perspective, it's attributable to the superficial, short-sighted, and improvisational functioning of his Gemini Sun, spurred by the blind self-assurance of his fire Moon and Ascendant. Gemini is easily confused, and most can work around this in some capacity, due to the gifts they have. But Leo and Sag are stubborn signs, and I think they undermine Gemini's ability to improvise and compromise effectively. Those Leo ideals are telling him he doesn't need to think about this or that, and his Moon is deeply fulfilled by his cult following, more than any alternative answer could provide him. By the nature of these signs, he'll always choose the answer that makes him feel good about himself, and he has the capacity to be convinced by his own desire for it.
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Unread 01-15-2021, 03:40 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

Just joined in on this conversation and read the comments.
While I agree with a lot of the comments, I do most so with Cary.
Energy needs a context to be evaluated.
If we take another example, let's say Fire, we can define it. But is it positive or negative, good or bad? I can use fire to cook with, to heat my bath water, but also to burn down a forest or a house.
It is what it is essentially, but how it is used defines its quality.
And this happens in a chart. One energy taken out of context has potential for many things, but when we look at it inserted in a chart, we can understand much more about how the energy is manifested and released.
In reality, "Leo" or "gemini" or "sagittarius" in themselves do not exist by themselves, they are potentials, and part of a larger picture, the context of the whole.
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Unread 01-15-2021, 03:47 PM
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Re: A question about Mr. Donald Trump's chart

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It is what it is essentially, but how it is used defines its quality.
And this happens in a chart. One energy taken out of context has potential for many things, but when we look at it inserted in a chart, we can understand much more about how the energy is manifested and released.
In reality, "Leo" or "gemini" or "sagittarius" in themselves do not exist by themselves, they are potentials, and part of a larger picture, the context of the whole.
If the signs don't exist, then neither does the whole that they make up.
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