USA charts - the ultimate debate

[Futurist]

Theo,
I received a quick response from Nick Campion. He read the posts and basically said that, as 'Theo' obviously believes what he is saying to be true, then might as well let him get on with it. This led me to examine why I couldn't have been so sanguine about this matter.

It is my belief that we only ever find behaviour objectional in someone else if we are refusing to admit to that trait in ourself. I'm afraid I took exception to the tone of your posts, far more than I took exception to the content. Therefore, I must look to where I may come across as sounding slightly superior or arrogant (my Moon is in Leo!) myself.

I do believe Franklin would have known a great deal about astrology and freemasonary. However, just as mother who elects to have baby by C-section can never be sure that 'consciousness' won't intervene to take the surgeon away at the last moment, or cause equipment to fail or other matters to intervene. I believe that events of major significance are orchestrated by forces which we participate with but, ultimately have no conscious control over. We act unconsciously to fall into rhythms that are a part of a greater consciousness. We 'collaborate with our fate'!

Ultimately, I believe we create our own reality and Theo, you are creating yours but I can only be responsible for mine.

I apologise for the tone of my previous post.

x

[Theo]

Originally Posted by Futurist

Jeez Theo - did I hit on a sore point with you or what !! Mars is in Gemini so, let's just say there are always two sides to a story and the fun in the debate over this one is who do you believe? Mars squares Uranus today, well you have certainly produced some suprising, if not shocking information on the very Uranian subject of astrology and sparked a lively debate!. This information can also be seen to be revolutionary (UR) in its nature in that it could revolutionise the way Americans (and the World) view the subject. For what you have just done, with great authority I might add, is changed the way we must all view the 'foundation' of the USA. If the Founding Fathers took it so seriously, then in the eyes of those who totally disbelieve the validity of astrology, this surely is reason to rethink. Mercury RX !!

It is not my intention to get into a 'flame war' with you but simply to discover the truth of this matter. However, I was beginning to lose count of the amount of times you have mentioned in your posts that you are a Judicial astrologer, as if that in someway makes what you are saying carry more weight. I also find it a little bit offensive that you seem to intimate that any form of astrological practice other than your own could not be sound. (Although I have to hold my hand up and say that coincidentally, I changed my profile yesterday and said that I take issue with some modern astrological techniques! but that's another debate).

Anyway, Franklin lived at 36 Craven Street, London (20 mins from me) for nearly sixteen years between 1757 and 1775, Dr Benjamin Franklin was indeed a scientist, diplomat, philosopher, inventor but I can find not one reference on the website of this house to his having been an astrologer. I would like to think that as he only signed the Declaration, one year after this 16 years in London, that he would have left some records of his astrological practice and they would be cited.

Having said that I do not dispute that he may have had a background interest in astrology but his almanacs appear to judge weather conditions on Astronomical data and not Astrological.

You make the statement
Many members were ready to sign by Tuesday, July 2, but a disagreement delayed the signing. This "disagreement" was Frankling & Jefferson concerned about the Capricorn Moon - so, since Jefferson was the main writer of the Declaration... both he and Franklin made themselves "unavailable" for signing on July 2 -

I take issue with the fact that just because you are a native Philadelphian, that you should be an authority on this subject. And anyway aren't the Franklin Papers held in Yale University in Conneticut? I live a few hundred yards from Windsor Castle and have access to documents there but I would never presume to say that this would make me more knowledgeable about the Royal Family. If what you say above is true then I personally need a specific reference .

Most astrologers know that Lois Rodden is one of the best sources of astrological data, making it their business to locate 'dirty data'. Along with the rest of us, they don't know what time it was signed. However, in an extensive discourse on this old chestnut on their site she (or they) state:
We are quite certain that the story of Ben Franklin arranging an early morning signing is apocryphal then passed on as fact. It is untraceable to historic sources."

That last line is very interesting, however I do concede that they may also be ignorant of the facts. So, thank you for your information Theo. I'll copy what you say to Nick Camipon and see if he has any comment on his source. Meanwhile, please take all this more lightheartedly, we should all pull together as a community and not polarise through a belief that some methods are better than others and if we do make authoritative statements and provide data we should always cite specific sources - or preface it with the words 'It is my belief........

Love and light

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by "flaming" - however, there are plenty of sources regarding Benjamin Franklin's work as an astrologer. Just write "Benjamin Franklin and astrology" in a search engine, and there's plenty of material - including Franklin's own writing on astrology.

Re/ weather forecasting - judging weather conditions on astronomical and not astrological? What does that mean? Here are the facts - not my "opinion" or yours - but facts: All short, medium, and long-range weather events centuries prior to the emergence of conventional meteorology in 1900 - was forecasted using judicial astrology - a branch called astro-meteorology, which Franklin practiced using a planetary ephemeris - based on astronomical data that astrologers use, and are responsible for. The classical judicial astrologer Claudius Ptolemy was forecasting weather back in the Second Century. I make no distinction between "astronomy" and "astrology" but that which is technical - that's it. I refer to the modern practice of astronomy to be Conventional Astronomy - which has a very young history (since the 18th century) and is dwarfed by Astrological History & Practice - of the world.

If you really know anything about weather forecasting then you should know that one of the duties of astrologers was to provide long-range weather forecasts - based on the movement of the planets, Moon, Sun - astronomical movements on the physical world. It follows that if celestial transits and their aspects influence the meta-physical worlds then, it must by defintion - affect nature as well - the physical, material world. The same thing as astrology - however, you make a difference. There is none.

Re/ USA charts - there are several of them as astrologers know, but the argument on "exact" time really isn't a big deal since all the dates of the origin of the U.S. are known - so all that is required is a date and a place. I use the July 4 chart for the Revolutionary War and the Sept. 17, 1787 passage of the U.S. Constitution.

Re/ being a Philadelphian - listen, Franklin made his life, and his home in Philadelphia, and it happens to be the place where the country had it origins and also happens to be the place where the Declaration of Independence was written, authenticated, and signed. I grew up there, and grew up around the historical places, and read the documents, including those written by Franklin, who is an institution in Philadelphia. You'd be surprised of the things you can find out in such a place when actually there. If you do your own searching, rather than taking my word for it, you might just find that indeed, despite all attempt to sign the Declaration of Independence on July 2 - it was not signed until July 4 until the Moon entered Aquarius. A fact. Astrology was widely used in colonial times, and astrological almanacs were as popular in the colonies as they were in England - and, by the way, always provided weather forecasts since TV weathermen didn't exist.

Lastly - hey, I just work here. But, there are "astrologers" who are not using classical, and yes, very strict techniques for predictive work - and - despite what some many think - polarizing or not - political correctness means nothing in astrological work. Nothing at all. Yes, a form of "politics" can be used to satisfy personal egos, but, as all true astrologers know - at a terrible price. Nothing is more damaging to an astrologer's vision, and ability to work as ego, and having to satisfy the political whims of others. Transits are CONSTANTLY in motion and the clock must be continually observed, monitored, and forecasts must be made in advance of present time.

There ARE very precise rules, and procedures that are not being used, and astrology has suffered due to this in my opinion. Although we have such lumaries such as Campion, and others who shed much light on astrological techniques, let us not confuse psychological implications with those also of the natural world - the Classicists developed very firm foundational techniques - especially those that mix Judicial & Natural Astrology into one form. The Pistis Sophia, and other ancient classical texts make it clear that those who cast & read charts for the Sun setting in predictive work, and forecasting - are not truthful. The correct method for even writing natal charts without times is for sunrise charts to be cast -noting the angles relative to the Sun-Moon-Earth, angles, and positions of planets, and the fixed stars rising, culminating, or setting at sunrise of the day, or birth in question.

Hey, I didn't write the text man; I just work here, but I was fortunate enough to read it early in my astrological training and have found it to be true - not once failing me - not once. I follow these rules, and maintain that Judicial Astrology and its classical techniques are valid today as they were thousands of years ago.

[Theo]

Originally Posted by Radu

This is all extremely interesting. Thanl you very much for sharing it with us.

Could you please tell me where in Pistis Sophia did you find that quote?
I didn't know about this text before.

Hi Radu,

You're welcome. During my early studies in astrology, I read as many Gnostic, and theologic texts related to astrology as I could, and one of the most influential were those Gnostic texts that dealt with the material world and the mundane. According to the Gnostics, humans were made up of both, and both body & soul are part of the mundane portion, but within the human solu is a non-terrestrial element that is called the "pneuma" the "spirit" or the "spark" and this is a portion of the Divine substance from outside the Earth that fell into the material world.

The Coptic Gnostic text, one of the most famous, called the "Pistis Sopia" was very influential to me in my youth. The text was found in Upper Egypt and contains a conversation between Jesus Christ and his disciples.

Christ described his movement through the heavens, and the terror he caused the Archons as he passed through their respective regions -

' "And all the rulers, and all those who are in the Fate, were thrown into agitation and fell on one another and were in exceeding great fear on seeing the great light that was about me....

And Adamas, the great Tyrant, and all the Tyrants in all the aeons began to fight in vain against the Light... And God took from them a third of their power, that they should no more be active in their evil doings... And the Fate and sphere over which they rule, I changed and brought it to pass that they spend six months turned to the left (midheaven) and accomplish their influences, and that six months they face to the right and accomplish their influences..." '

Astrological scholars determined that what Christ was saying was that God had weakened the power of the archons by introducing irregularity into operations of the planets, and arranged the celestial motions so that anyone casting horoscopes would have a greatly diminished chance of being accurate.

Mary Magdalen asks Christ if astrology would continue to be effective since God had not taken away the power of the planets, but just confused it -

' "My Lord, will not then the horoscope-casters and consulters from now on declare unto men what will come to pass for them?" she asked

Christ answered, and said -

"If the horoscope-casters find the Fate and the sphere turned towards the left, according to their first extension, their words will come to pass, and they will say what is to take place. But if they chance on the Fate or the sphere turned to the right, they are bound to say nothing true..."

Further in the Pistis Sophia, Christ gave an discourse on the way the planets and their influences were arranged by God the Creator -

' " God bound eighteen-hundred (1,800) rulers in every aeon, and set three hundred and sixty (360) over them and He set five other great rulers, who in the world of mankind are called with these names: the first is called Kronos (Saturn), the second Ares (Mars) the third Hermes (Mercury) the fourth Aphrodite (Venus) and the fifth Zeus (Jupiter).

Further, Christ explained that the only planet that exercised a good influence is Zeus (Jupiter) and that God the Creator arranged it this way because the planets - "needed a helm to steer the world and the aeons of the sphere, so that they might not wreck it (the world) with their wickness."

Many ancient texts such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, and Gnostic texts state that the prophets were classical astrologers, and that they received their messages from God by observing, calulating, and interpreting the motions in heavens. The precepts, rules, and procedures set down for calculations and interpretations were perfected by celestial observations over the centuries, most notably by Egyptian, Jewish, Hindu, Persian, Greek, and Arab judicial astrologers. My own studies included all of the above, and I mixed them with the further work of modernized European, and American astrological techniques.

[Futurist]

Say not " I have found the truth," but rather,
"I have found a truth"

Kahlil Gibran

[Theo]

"Tis not coincidence two ears, one tongue."

- Butler Yates

[AquariusMoon]

http://www.ericfrancis.com/issues/0307/full-moon.html

Theo, as you stated, there were many links to "Franklin astrology declaration of independence" on the net. I'd never heard of this before.
Ditto the Gnostic planetary info. Thanks

[Theo]

Originally Posted by AquariusMoon

http://www.ericfrancis.com/issues/0307/full-moon.html

Theo, as you stated, there were many links to "Franklin astrology declaration of independence" on the net. I'd never heard of this before.
Ditto the Gnostic planetary info. Thanks

You're welcome. Sometimes, all people have to do is look and the information will be there on matters such as Franklin, Jefferson, and the USA charts. The history is quite factual; but even astrologers have to be reminded of their own astrological history. Glad to be of help.

[Futurist]

deleted by Futurist

[AquariusMoon]

Theo, if it is true that BF and TJ were the cause of changing the US chart from a Cap Moon to an Aq Moon, that has changed the course of history and would give BF and TJ lots of karma imo. What responsibility. An Aq Moon is more in keeping with America's ideals imo, but I wonder if a Cap Moon would have kept us out of some wars, what sorts of differences a Cap Moon would have made in the history of the US?

Radu, great thread.

I would think the location of Pluto and tr Pluto would give important clues esp during Hiroshima (Aug 6, 1945) and Nagasaki (Aug 9, 1945), Pres. Kennedy's assassination (Nov 22, 1963) and 9/11. As you say, the transits work out best with the Sibley chart. I believe that is the one The Mountain Astrologer uses and many other astrologers, so it is the one I use.

[Radu]

The recent declaration by Ayatollah Ali Khamenei to continue on its nuclear path is considered by media sources as a declaration of diplomatic warfare. It reminds me of Mars in Gemini currently conjunct the USA Sibley chart Descendant.
This declaration came on the day of the Full Moon in Virgo, in square with Pluto, expressing a peak in diplomatic tensions surrounding Iran's nuclear facilities.

[Theo]

Originally Posted by AquariusMoon

Theo, if it is true that BF and TJ were the cause of changing the US chart from a Cap Moon to an Aq Moon, that has changed the course of history and would give BF and TJ lots of karma imo. What responsibility. An Aq Moon is more in keeping with America's ideals imo, but I wonder if a Cap Moon would have kept us out of some wars, what sorts of differences a Cap Moon would have made in the history of the US?

Radu, great thread.

I would think the location of Pluto and tr Pluto would give important clues esp during Hiroshima (Aug 6, 1945) and Nagasaki (Aug 9, 1945), Pres. Kennedy's assassination (Nov 22, 1963) and 9/11. As you say, the transits work out best with the Sibley chart. I believe that is the one The Mountain Astrologer uses and many other astrologers, so it is the one I use.

Well, a Moon in Capricorn is not positive - especially in a Mundane chart, and Franklin, and Jefferson recognized this - moreover, the aspects it made in early July 1776 were not condusive to officially authenticating it - so, they made a decision based on astrological knowledge, and made sure it took place after July 2 - which happened. The USA's history is replete with important decisions being made before erections of buildings, and the signing of documents according to astrological transits, and principles.

[AquariusMoon]

Thanks, Theo.

I know nothing about mundane astrology and will do some basic research on Skyscript

[Theo]

Originally Posted by AquariusMoon

Thanks, Theo.

I know nothing about mundane astrology and will do some basic research on Skyscript

Sure, you're welcome. Studying classical, judicial astrology will make anyone a better astrologer. Mundane astrology is but a branch of judicial astrology, but one of the most important because it broadens one's view of celestial transits, and improves one's abilities when working natally as well.

[Futurist]

Originally Posted by Radu

The recent declaration by Ayatollah Ali Khamenei to continue on its nuclear path is considered by media sources as a declaration of diplomatic warfare. It reminds me of Mars in Gemini currently conjunct the USA Sibley chart Descendant.
This declaration came on the day of the Full Moon in Virgo, in square with Pluto, expressing a peak in diplomatic tensions surrounding Iran's nuclear facilities.

Radu, I completely agree - this is looking good for the Sibley option! If anyone can correlate data of significant events to agree with the ASC/MC points of 6 Sco and 21 Gemini then I guess that would be further supporting evidence for this timing. (For the 02.13 ASC/MC would be 25 Leo and 10 Aries). I believe that those who rectify charts use the AS/MC m.p. as it corresponds to 'at this time and this place' and is usually triggered to the precise second in significant events involving a person, so I am hoping this point will prove to be as potent in this discussion. Does anyone out there use the AS/MC point in their work?

[johan]

Kathryn,I get lost in your last post.It is the languagebarrier here! :cry:
I don't understand it,don't know what the degrees you used means,these arent the AC/MC points of the Sibley/Geminichart,are they?So please clarify.I also don't understand what the abbreviation m.p. means.

Well,as I correctly understood,what Radu wrote was a + for the Sibleychart,and Radu mentioned in his first post already that transits and progressions where already more speaking for the Sibleychart.Although the Geminichart was more speaking for the USA itself,further clarified by the Sabian symbols.

I would like an example of those progressions/transits concerning the chart,for further insights.As Aquarian Moon suggested I looked up the transits of Pluto by the bombing of Nagasaki,and really took effort and time but could not find anything.Don't forget Radu,Kathryn and any other advanced astrologers most of the forumeers are like me only beginning astrologystudents,so it would be more than fair if you can explain something of these progressions/transits and how I could read it!It is very annoying if you really give it your best and you cannot find anything!

So hoping for some clarification here so I also can stay involved in the debate here....

[Futurist]

Hi Johan,

Yes you are absolutely right I am getting a little too technical and lost in myself here! It is not my intention at all to have excluded you or indeed anyone and I am more than happy to try and explain - although on this particular topic , Harmonics, that could take a few days of writing if someone has no knowledge at all as it can get really complex! Also, although I had to study it in depth, I will never claim to be expert so if someone else wants to chip in, please do so.

Firstly though Johan the Sibley chart is generally regarded to be the 5.10pm one not the Gemini rising one so that will also be confusing you. Mars has just crossed the Desc of 12 Gemini of the Sibley chart.

Now to the harmonics. the division of the circle by 8 - the 8th harmonic or 8H leaves you with 8 divisions of 45 degrees. Within one 45 degree section you will find a reflection of all the 13 main natal planets and and the 78 midpoints (m.p.) they produce. If you use a computer program and set it to a 45 degree sort, this will throw up a table of midpoints listed by Cardinal, Fixed and Mutable signs.

The direct midpoint inthis case is 6.42 Scorpio count forward 45 degrees and you'll get to another midpoint at 21.42 Sag so one now knows that the ASc/MC point will resonate around the chart to 6.42 degrees of all the fixed degrees, so 6 Leo, 6 Aq, 6 Taurus and 21.42 degrees of all mutable signs. Pisces, Sag, Gemini and Virgo.

When we look for these numbers to show up in data it is because at these degrees the ASC and MC are brought into relationship and a direct hit on one often supports our belief that this must be the correct degree of the angles as the orbs used in harmonics are so small.

Is that clearer or clear as mud!! I highly recommend a book called Working With Astrology by Michael Harding and Charles Harvey to really get into this topic of harmonics

Hope it has helped x

[johan]

Kathryn,

Originally Posted by johan

arent the AC/MC points of the Sibley/Geminichart,are they?

This is the sentence I think why you thought I don't know the difference between the Sybleychart(Sagittarius rising chart) and the Gemini rising chart,but I do know.I only used this together,because the points you mentioned were not the AC/MC points in both charts.So Radu is making a point here for the Sybleychart,because of the relationship between the descendant of the chart and transiting Mars,with full Moon squaring Pluto.

-So if I am correct you mean the midpoint(m.p. I understand now )of the AC/MC of the Sybleychart,which is 6.42 Scorpio.

-And the rest of the technical explanations is crystalclear,except a few things:
1Using the 8th harmonic,so adding 45 degrees to the AC/MC midpoint,cannot be regarded as a midpoint(you say it is),but as an important point I think you mean,as a semisquare?
2Do you use also other harmonics,or is the 8th considered to be the most important generally?
3You say 13 main natal planets,but I think you mean 8+Sun+Moon+Nodes and something I think?

I know I should study more of astrology,like the books you mentioned and Ebertin was using midpoints and wrote a book of it I think,but if you would answer these questions this will be real helpful for now.

Greetings,

Johan

[Futurist]

Originally Posted by johan

-And the rest of the technical explanations is crystalclear,except a few things:
1Using the 8th harmonic,so adding 45 degrees to the AC/MC midpoint,cannot be regarded as a midpoint(you say it is),but as an important point I think you mean,as a semisquare?
2Do you use also other harmonics,or is the 8th considered to be the most important generally?
3You say 13 main natal planets,but I think you mean 8+Sun+Moon+Nodes and something I think?

Greetings,

Johan

Hi ,

Yep, you got it perfectly Johan! To answer the questions you pose
1) In the 8H adding 45 degrees to a midpoint will take you to another one, albeit an indirect midpoint.
2) 8H is considered to be the harmonic of manifestation so this is commonly used and is what Ebertin uses.
3) My error, 13 main natal points not planets. 8+ Sun, Moon, ASC, MC, Node

best wishes x

[johan]

Thank you,it's clear now!

Best wishes back,

Johan

[Theo]

Originally Posted by AquariusMoon

http://www.ericfrancis.com/issues/0307/full-moon.html

Theo, as you stated, there were many links to "Franklin astrology declaration of independence" on the net. I'd never heard of this before.
Ditto the Gnostic planetary info. Thanks

Cool, isn't it? Well, I sort of grew up in that Philadelphia community in the Northwest and read about and also studied under the astrologers who in the 19th & 20th centuries, continued the tradition. Franklin, and many more Quakers of Penn's state were classical astrologers.

Franklin was the "star" of the group, witty, inventive, writer, scientist, publishers, journalist, astrologer, and yes, one of the founding fathers of America - in more ways than one. Nice to have a couple practical celestial heads among others in the room deciding great public matters - not by rushing - but by knowing where the transits are, huh?

[AquariusMoon]

Theo, do you know anything about the clock on the back of the $100 bill that is set at 4:10? Do you think maybe that's when the Declaration of Independence was signed? Have you heard anything about that? I wonder what it stands for?

[Radu]

Indeed, it's there... 4:10 pm

I searched the internet for explanations for this clock set at thims time (on the Independence Hall in Philadelphia - where the Declaration of Independence was signed). I could find no website to explain this time.
I only presume that it actually referred to the time when the declaration was signed, although there might have been an error.
The Sibly chart is set for 5:10 pm.
Benjamin Franklin had proposed a "daylight saving time" system in 1784 (while in Paris), although not in its current form, people just had to wake up earlier in order to use the daylight during the early morning.

Theo, could you please shed some light on this?

[AquariusMoon]

Thanks, Radu, for checking! You came up with some interesting info, the Daylight Savings Time. I spent some time checking on the net, but didn't come up with anything. That 4:10 has got to mean something!

[Arian Maverick]

Wow, I never noticed that before! Perhaps that's because I don't deal with $100 bills too often...

What a fascinating discovery! :mrgreen:

Arian Maverick

[AquariusMoon]

http://www.moneyfactory.gov/document.cfm/18/2232

Hi! Here is a link from the Department of the Treasury that says that there is no record for an explanation as to why the clock is set at 4:10.