Accidental Dignities - Which Method and Why?

Or does it really matter all that much since they're relatively minor? In the Morinus program you can select a variety of different methods to use to figure the "minor" dignities for a chart. The triplicities default to Dorothean (other choices are Ptolemaic and Morinus), the terms default to Egyptian (with Ptolemaic as the alternate) and the faces default to Chaldean (which can be switched to "Triplicity" but I'm not sure exactly what that means). I read somewhere that these defaults are the most common choices, but after experimenting some with the options, I lean toward the Ptolemaic triplicities and leave the others as-is. Does anyone with more traditional experience have a preferred method, and, if so, what did you base your choices on?

Zaphod said:

Or does it really matter all that much since they're relatively minor? In the Morinus program you can select a variety of different methods to use to figure the "minor" dignities for a chart. The triplicities default to Dorothean (other choices are Ptolemaic and Morinus), the terms default to Egyptian (with Ptolemaic as the alternate) and the faces default to Chaldean (which can be switched to "Triplicity" but I'm not sure exactly what that means). I read somewhere that these defaults are the most common choices, but after experimenting some with the options, I lean toward the Ptolemaic triplicities and leave the others as-is. Does anyone with more traditional experience have a preferred method, and, if so, what did you base your choices on?

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OK, those are essential dignities. Accidental dignities are like if a planet is in the 10th or 1st or not combust, etc.

Traditionally, I follow Lilly (horary) who used basically Ptolemy/Lilly terms, Lilly's triplicity and Chaldean face. And, this will just start a whole can of worms rolling but, again...pick someone with some clout historically and learn their method and reasons. Then you can mix and match later once you understand that each person historically had their own system and rules for that system which, once understood, will clear up your questions.

Some people (horary) also do well with Dorothean Triplicity, Egyptian Terms and Chaldean Face.

Anachiel said:

OK, those are essential dignities. Accidental dignities are like if a planet is in the 10th or 1st or not combust, etc.

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Correct. I was confused by the Morinus options window, which calls them "Minor Dignities" but they do show up in the "essential dignities" portion of the chart almuten calculation table.

I've read Tetrabiblos and to some extent Lilly (it's a tough read since I have the facsimile edition with the archaic typeface.) I don't have anything by Dorotheus or Morin yet, and wouldn't know where to look for Egyptian or Chaldean background material (perhaps Ben Dykes, Arahat or Astrology Classics translations?) That's why I was looking for an informed opinion and some direction, not an education. I'm certainly willing to do the work.

Then stick with Lilly. It's the most complete, succinct and tried and tested Table out there complete with a plethora of examples and explanations which, no one else has, really.

Anachiel said:

Then stick with Lilly. It's the most complete, succinct and tried and tested Table out there complete with a plethora of examples and explanations which, no one else has, really.

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Thanks! Guess I will have to buy the modern, readable reprint Of Christian Astrology (but I have also read that it's not as reliably accurate a version as the facsimile). To your knowledge, has anyone computerized Lilly's table so planetary condition can be assessed more efficiently? I really like Morinus, and I have confirmed through manual calculation what the almuten numbers actually mean, so I'm not just swallowing it because it's easy. Avelar and Ribiero give a worksheet at the back of On the Planetary Spheres that I might be able to customize for Lilly's approach. Since I discovered the robust traditional (as opposed to the stripped-down modern) use of dignities and debilities, I've been looking for the right blend of utility and precision (without spending $300 to get it !)

In Morinus just pick Ptolemy for terms and triplicity and chaldean for decans. Lilly's table can be pulled up in Google images.

Also, Janus is an excellent and reasonable priced program that has many options.

I've been using the Egyptian terms and Dorothean triplicites, mainly because Ptolemy doesn't give a third co-ruler for the triplicities.

Zaphod, Ben Dykes' Intro to Traditional Astrology is excellent for someone with a good astro background.

One last note from a newbie. If you prefer to read natal charts in whole sign like I do, finding accidental dignity without a program is easier done with some form of quadrant house system.

Anachiel said:

Some people (horary) also do well with Dorothean Triplicity, Egyptian Terms and Chaldean Face.

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^ Me.

It really depends on what you want to do. if you're unsure then just default to Lilly. As you delve into the more historical part of astrology, you'll start to pick things out and combine them. It's kind of a weird thing to get used to.

tsmall said:

I've been using the Egyptian terms and Dorothean triplicites, mainly because Ptolemy doesn't give a third co-ruler for the triplicities.

Zaphod, Ben Dykes' Intro to Traditional Astrology is excellent for someone with a good astro background.

One last note from a newbie. If you prefer to read natal charts in whole sign like I do, finding accidental dignity without a program is easier done with some form of quadrant house system.

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With a "day" and "night" triplicity ruler, what role does the "participating" ruler play? Does its nature reinforce or detract from the strength of the primary ruler?

I would also vote for "On the Heavenly Spheres" by Helena Avelar and Luis Ribiero, and "Astrology, A Comprehensive Guide to Classical Interpretation" by Kevin Burk as good places to start.

I always look at whole-sign houses as a secondary step, especially if there are planets around the angles. I've been intrigued by the thread on what happens with rising planets when the Ascendant falls in the middle of the 1st house.

With a "day" and "night" triplicity ruler, what role does the "participating" ruler play? Does its nature reinforce or detract from the strength of the primary ruler?

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Participatory ruler is used in some considerations in natal astrology.

For example, you can give general predictions about parts of the native's life. See if the chart is day or night. If day, see what triplicity the Sun is in and compare the three triplicity rulers (starting with the day ruler for the first third of life) by their essential and accidental dignity and placements in the chart. If, say, Mars in Aries shows their first third of life, Venus in Aries shows second third, and Moon in Taurus shows the final third, you can say that the first and final thirds of their life are likely to be easiest for them, while their middle third is likely to be a struggle. You can make more specific statements depending on where the planet is and who is aspecting it.

Kaiousei no Senshi said:

Participatory ruler is used in some considerations in natal astrology.

For example, you can give general predictions about parts of the native's life. See if the chart is day or night. If day, see what triplicity the Sun is in and compare the three triplicity rulers (starting with the day ruler for the first third of life) by their essential and accidental dignity and placements in the chart. If, say, Mars in Aries shows their first third of life, Venus in Aries shows second third, and Moon in Taurus shows the final third, you can say that the first and final thirds of their life are likely to be easiest for them, while their middle third is likely to be a struggle. You can make more specific statements depending on where the planet is and who is aspecting it.

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Yes, that was exactly what I meant.

Zaphod said:

I always look at whole-sign houses as a secondary step, especially if there are planets around the angles. I've been intrigued by the thread on what happens with rising planets when the Ascendant falls in the middle of the 1st house.

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I go the other way around, lol. Part of the "art" and the differences between each astrologer? Which thread about what happens with rising planets when the ASC falls in the middle of the house? Do you mean in the middle of the whole sign house? With my ASC at 14* Libra, I might be interested...