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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 04-16-2014, 01:35 PM
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All Traditional Planets Peregrine

Hi,

I have been studying essential dignity, and I realized that all 7 traditional planets in my chart are peregrine, that is, no planet is in domicile, exalted, in its own triplicity, term or face. Hence, my chart would be one bereft of essential dignity. There is only a mutual reception between the Moon in Gemini and Mercury in Cancer, but since there is no aspect here, at least traditionally, there is no dignity, if I understand it correctly.

I think this is an interesting topic, as at least mathematically, as some back of the envelope math tells me that this would occur somewhere around (very back of the envelope) less than 2% of the time. If a peregrine planet is at the disposition of its depositor, who is also peregrine, then the wheels spin, but there are no gears moving, so to speak.

How would one describe a chart like this, or, a chart with say, with very little essential dignity? Undignified comes to mind, but maybe something a bit more descriptive. I attached my chart, to make sure I am not missing anything.

Looking forward to your comments.
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Unread 04-16-2014, 02:48 PM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

Mars is in detriment and Saturn is in fall, so they are not peregrine (technically I believe according to some definitions), and they receive each other. Also, Jupiter and Saturn are both in triplicity.

Peregrine means no essential dignity, but the tables aren't the only thing to look at here. Masculine planets in masculine signs hold some dignity. The same goes for diurnal planets in diurnal signs. Besides gender and sect, look also at the "elemental" nature of the planets and signs. A hot and dry planet in a hot and wet sign will fare better than if it were placed in a cold and wet sign, indubitably.

Last edited by eternalautumn; 04-16-2014 at 02:54 PM.
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Unread 04-16-2014, 04:05 PM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

Hi EternalAutumn,

Thanks for the reply. I have looked at that argument concerning a planet in detriment or fall not being peregrine, and I know it can become quite obtuse..It just always seemed counter intuitive to me that a planet would be dignified by lack of dignity. But that is another argument, and there is a long thread on it.

I am not sure I follow you on Jupiter and Saturn being in triplicity...maybe I am missing something, but in a diurnal chart, isn't Saturn the leader of the air signs, and the Sun the fire? Or does the fact that Jupiter rules the fire signs at night give it some dignity in a day chart?

I see what you mean about sect, but is that enough to make it not peregrine? I also have heard of reception by triplicity, terms, or face. Just not sure if it is enough to remove the label of peregrine.
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Unread 04-16-2014, 05:28 PM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

Hi CactusLand,

What system of Terms are you using? The Egyptian system puts Jupiter within his own terms. So...there's something.
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Unread 04-16-2014, 06:26 PM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

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I am not sure I follow you on Jupiter and Saturn being in triplicity...maybe I am missing something, but in a diurnal chart, isn't Saturn the leader of the air signs, and the Sun the fire? Or does the fact that Jupiter rules the fire signs at night give it some dignity in a day chart?
Sun is the day ruler of fire, Jupiter the night, and Saturn the common (participating), so they all hold some dignity in fire signs, even when out of sect.
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Unread 04-17-2014, 12:03 AM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

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Originally Posted by CactusLand View Post
Hi,

I have been studying essential dignity, and I realized that all 7 traditional planets in my chart are peregrine, that is, no planet is in domicile, exalted, in its own triplicity, term or face. Hence, my chart would be one bereft of essential dignity. There is only a mutual reception between the Moon in Gemini and Mercury in Cancer,
There is also mutual reception between Mars and Saturn. Saturn and Sun receive each other by triplicity. There is some other minor/mixed reception beteen your planets.

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but since there is no aspect here, at least traditionally, there is no dignity, if I understand it correctly.
You are correct that there is no essential dignity (with the exception of Jupiter being in his own terms using Egyptian terms as KnS already pointed out) but it isn't because there is no aspect. Being received does not confer essential dignity. Even with an aspect the planets are still essentially not dignified. Essential dignity takes us to the meaning of the word "essence." Dictionary.com gives the best definition

Quote:
the inward nature, true substance, or constitution of anything, as opposed to what is accidental, phenomenal, illusory, etc.
The essence of a planet, including diginity, is what we are looking at when we are defining that planet separate from anything else. This "definining/describing" is the first step in understanding the total condition of the planet, but not the last.

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I see what you mean about sect, but is that enough to make it not peregrine? I also have heard of reception by triplicity, terms, or face. Just not sure if it is enough to remove the label of peregrine.
Sect is a topic that deserves its own thread. It is a separate consideration from essential dignity; while it does speak to the "essence" of the planet, it cannot confer or take away dignity. What it can do is tell us how your peregrine planets will act (domain), if they are capable to act (competent) and if they are able to act (angularity.)


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If a peregrine planet is at the disposition of its depositor, who is also peregrine, then the wheels spin, but there are no gears moving, so to speak.
No, this isn't true. The first thing peregrine planets need to do is examine themselves. Lilly and a few others have called them wiley (this is on that other long thread you referred to.) The next thing they do is examine their rulers to see if they will help or hinder. I've been at work all day, so the best analogy I can come up with is trying to do my job (run a store for a corporate company) and wanting to rely on my bosses to help me. Yet mostly their advice/directives/help gets in the way of me doing my job effectively. Which means that I am back to myself, my "essence" in order to get the job done.

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How would one describe a chart like this, or, a chart with say, with very little essential dignity? Undignified comes to mind, but maybe something a bit more descriptive. I attached my chart, to make sure I am not missing anything.
How would YOU describe a chart like this? After all, it is your chart My question would be can you look at your peregrine planets and see how they have operated in your chart/life? Is the reality as "bad" as the idea? Are you "undignified?"
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Unread 04-17-2014, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
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Sect is a topic that deserves its own thread. It is a separate consideration from essential dignity; while it does speak to the "essence" of the planet, it cannot confer or take away dignity. What it can do is tell us how your peregrine planets will act (domain), if they are capable to act (competent) and if they are able to act (angularity.)
tsmall, as far as Aries, Gemini, Leo, etc are masculine and diurnal signs, and Sun, Jupiter, and Mars are masculine planets, that is a kind of dignity, no? And vice versa for the feminine nocturnal signs and planets. This is indeed different from sect considerations of a particular chart...
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Unread 04-17-2014, 01:11 AM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

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tsmall, as far as Aries, Gemini, Leo, etc are masculine and diurnal signs, and Sun, Jupiter, and Mars are masculine planets, that is a kind of dignity, no? And vice versa for the feminine nocturnal signs and planets. This is indeed different from sect considerations of a particular chart...
No. It is a kind of rejoicing but it isn't the same as dignity. What you are describing is conflated under the idea of "sect" but has more to do with "domain." There is chart sect, determined by the Sun's position relative to the horizon (nocturnal planets vs. diurnal planets) and then there are considerations of hayz and halb. This is where masculine/feminine come in. If a planet is in its domain, i.e. a place that agrees somehow with its essential nature, then it is more comfortable. Which translates to more competent or able to complete the job at hand. It isn't dignity. It's...capability. Does that make sense? A peregrine planet in hayz and in a productive place is going to be able to do his job as overseer of the houses he rules,...eventually. Provided that he isn't impeded by another planet.
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Unread 04-17-2014, 01:36 AM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

I see. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused, and thank you for clarifying.
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Unread 04-17-2014, 01:55 PM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

Hi Kaiousei no Senshi

Good point, I was using the Ptlomeic Terms,,but I see on both the Chaldean and Egyptian terms, Jupiter is in his own term... so at least one of the seven has some dignity..

Thanks for the heads up.
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Unread 04-17-2014, 03:10 PM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

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There is also mutual reception between Mars and Saturn. Saturn and Sun receive each other by triplicity. There is some other minor/mixed reception beteen your planets.



You are correct that there is no essential dignity (with the exception of Jupiter being in his own terms using Egyptian terms as KnS already pointed out) but it isn't because there is no aspect. Being received does not confer essential dignity. Even with an aspect the planets are still essentially not dignified. Essential dignity takes us to the meaning of the word "essence." Dictionary.com gives the best definition



The essence of a planet, including diginity, is what we are looking at when we are defining that planet separate from anything else. This "definining/describing" is the first step in understanding the total condition of the planet, but not the last.



Sect is a topic that deserves its own thread. It is a separate consideration from essential dignity; while it does speak to the "essence" of the planet, it cannot confer or take away dignity. What it can do is tell us how your peregrine planets will act (domain), if they are capable to act (competent) and if they are able to act (angularity.)




No, this isn't true. The first thing peregrine planets need to do is examine themselves. Lilly and a few others have called them wiley (this is on that other long thread you referred to.) The next thing they do is examine their rulers to see if they will help or hinder. I've been at work all day, so the best analogy I can come up with is trying to do my job (run a store for a corporate company) and wanting to rely on my bosses to help me. Yet mostly their advice/directives/help gets in the way of me doing my job effectively. Which means that I am back to myself, my "essence" in order to get the job done.



How would YOU describe a chart like this? After all, it is your chart My question would be can you look at your peregrine planets and see how they have operated in your chart/life? Is the reality as "bad" as the idea? Are you "undignified?"

Hi,

Thanks for your insightful response. I understand what you mean about mutual reception, but I am almost sure I heard Rob Hand in a lecture say that mutual reception did confer dignity...but I could have misunderstood, and I can't find it written.

Wiley may be the word, but from my experience, the peregrine planet lacks strength and luck. Triplicity,as Lee Lehman describes it, brings a bit of luck to the planetary energy.

My chart is an interesting one, I think, for the reason that it has so many peregrine planets, both luminaries in the 12th, Saturn square the chart ruler, Mercury, who is at the 'tiller' in his joy, but very debilitated by the very tight Saturn square. The other planet in an angular house, Mars, is in detriment in Libra. But in spite of their peregrine state and both being under assault from a Saturn in fall, Mars and Mercury in the chart have shown some energy, I believe, due to the angularity. I have had some success writing, was a reasonably good high school athlete, and have always loved a fight (but maybe that's because I am half Irish).

So what is it like to have all planets peregrine, except for a Jupiter in its own term, both luminaries in the 12th house, and a Balsamic moon under the rays?

I think approaching a chart like mine is a good exercise for astrologers, because, when we read someone's chart that looks like this one, what do we tell them?

Here is what I can say from my experience. One of the keys to this chart is the moon. The balsamic moon signifies the end of cycle, the 8th and final phase where it is time to tie up loose knots, and almost merge with the infinite again in a Piscean way. And if you use whole sign houses, the Sun and Moon move into the first house, but the North Node moves into the 12th..imo, equally murky.

If someone walked into my practice with my chart, I would look to see how connected they were to the world, and if I saw they were not, I would really nudge them towards a contemplative life.

For example, I have lived and worked in 4 countries, more jobs then I can remember, and one night, when I couldn't sleep, I counted having had 27 different residences. I have had many sentimental relationships, worked in many fields, some with distinction, but nothing ever took. It has been almost impossible to put roots down professionally, relationship wise, family wise, location wise etc. I believe this type of life is a reflection of the lack of strength in these planets. Imagine, not one of them in his home, or even a guest, and only one is allowed to sit in his own chair? How can they force an issue if they aren't even wearing their own clothes? Wiley they had better be.

For a long time I thought I was doomed, until I finally gave into myself, and since then, I feel like I have cracked the nut of this chart.

The Gnostics had an idea that the planets were to be overcome, transcended, as was the zodiac. There was a concept that beyond the 7 planets, and beyond the zodiac, one met Jesus and Sophia. It's a bit like the Tarot cards of The Lovers and The Devil.... they are practically the same card, but what at a more earthy or physical level, love and attachment are great, they later become chains. The Devil guards the gate to the last 6 spiritual cards, the transcendent cards. Before you can pass him, you must have given up those things. You can't have any hooks in you if you want to really reach a high level of consciousness.

I would compare it a bit to waking up to the Matrix. Living in the Matrix is great, but once you wake up to it, it stops working, you can't go back. The soul moves down through Saturn (time and culture) Jupiter (religion and philosophy) Mars (power, the tribe, the more basic urges.). etc.. etc.. until we get to earth, and then we have to make the return trip.

The weakness of this chart from an earthly point of view is exactly it's strength in a transcendent one. Shift things around a bit, and I have a Sun in Aries, Saturn in Capricorn, an new moon in Taurus conjunct Venus, and I am a happy, worldly, successful person, but I am also far too attached to this world to ever transcend it.

From a traditional stand point, there are doomed charts, and this is a good example of one, but doomed for this world. But maybe a chart like this pushes the native towards the transcendent, success beyond this world. Again, as the Gnostics emphasized, maybe this world is not all its cracked up to be.

If the native dreams of a cushy corporate life, a happy marriage, and weekends at the golf club- this is not a good chart for him. But there are other lives and other paths, and the path less taken would be the appropriate one for this chart.
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Unread 04-17-2014, 04:07 PM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

I think you are over-emphasising the effect of a planet without dignity. You have to remember that Sect is vitally important - both a planet being in sect, but also being in the place of a sect-mate. I would be more concerned with the malefics both being in angles and debilitated (Saturn being so elevated too while in his depression) with the benefics turned away from the ASC, to be honest.

Your most important planets - the domicile master, Mercury, (bound lord of the predominator, the ASC) and Mars, the Kurios, (lord of the 10th sign while in an angular sign) - are forceful, but are both afflicted by this depressed Saturn. It is also unfortunate that an otherwise strong Mercury is applying to this Saturn, but as you say, not every life is meant to be easy and you seem to be interested in the positive things one would expect of this placement.

So yeah, in my opinion, more to do with the angular malefics (Saturn in particular being so elevated and depressed) and the benefics sitting in the 2nd sign unable to aspect that Mercury,who lords both luminaries, than all the planets lacking essential dignity.

I use the Sidereal measurement, by the way, so the benefics are in Cancer, the ASC in Gemini.

EDIT: am I understanding you correctly in thinking that you are unmarried? The Moon under the beams is one indication of this according to Valens. It is something I always keep an eye on but have mixed results with it.

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Unread 04-17-2014, 04:40 PM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

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I think you are over-emphasising the effect of a planet without dignity. You have to remember that Sect is vitally important - both a planet being in sect, but also being in the place of a sect-mate. I would be more concerned with the malefics both being in angles and debilitated (Saturn being so elevated too while in his depression) with the benefics turned away from the ASC, to be honest.

Your most important planets - the domicile master, Mercury, (bound lord of the predominator, the ASC) and Mars, the Kurios, (lord of the 10th sign while in an angular sign) - are forceful, but are both afflicted by this depressed Saturn. It is also unfortunate that an otherwise strong Mercury is applying to this Saturn, but as you say, not every life is meant to be easy and you seem to be interested in the positive things one would expect of this placement.

So yeah, in my opinion, more to do with the angular malefics (Saturn in particular being so elevated and depressed) and the benefics sitting in the 2nd sign unable to aspect that Mercury,who lords both luminaries, than all the planets lacking essential dignity.

I use the Sidereal measurement, by the way, so the benefics are in Cancer, the ASC in Gemini.

EDIT: am I understanding you correctly in thinking that you are unmarried? The Moon under the beams is one indication of this according to Valens. It is something I always keep an eye on but have mixed results with it.
Hi Konrad,

I am married, but quite late. Yes, I see your point, and from the traditional standpoint, the Saturn square to Mercury and Sun in the 12th would be the most damning. I brought this topic up because recently I have done some charts of folks with lots of very dignified planets, but they were quite troubled. One young lady, with many planets exalted or in domicile, in particular, but the chart shouted out at me, trouble. It took about 30 minutes into the reading, but she finally admitted to me what was obvious. In that reading, and in others, I realized that dignified planets dig in, hold their ground, fight it out more, making the aspects, in my opinion, all the more intense.

One question, I am interested in your thoughts on, Saturn high in the chart. In the case of an afflicted Saturn, especially in the 10th or 11th, I can see how you would interpret that as pressing down hard on goals, networks, career, and with a square to the Asc, the self image. But what if that Saturn, in a day chart, was in Capricorn? Sometimes I have a hard time with that in readings. A square to the Asc, is a square, but with a strong dignified Saturn, and a 10th house Capricorn, how would you see that playing out for the native in terms of Asc, self image, and projected image to the world, and career?
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Unread 04-17-2014, 05:08 PM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

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Hi Konrad,

I am married, but quite late. Yes, I see your point, and from the traditional standpoint, the Saturn square to Mercury and Sun in the 12th would be the most damning. I brought this topic up because recently I have done some charts of folks with lots of very dignified planets, but they were quite troubled. One young lady, with many planets exalted or in domicile, in particular, but the chart shouted out at me, trouble. It took about 30 minutes into the reading, but she finally admitted to me what was obvious. In that reading, and in others, I realized that dignified planets dig in, hold their ground, fight it out more, making the aspects, in my opinion, all the more intense.

One question, I am interested in your thoughts on, Saturn high in the chart. In the case of an afflicted Saturn, especially in the 10th or 11th, I can see how you would interpret that as pressing down hard on goals, networks, career, and with a square to the Asc, the self image. But what if that Saturn, in a day chart, was in Capricorn? Sometimes I have a hard time with that in readings. A square to the Asc, is a square, but with a strong dignified Saturn, and a 10th house Capricorn, how would you see that playing out for the native in terms of Asc, self image, and projected image to the world, and career?
Hmmm, well I don't look at a chart in that manner. Saturn elevated will promote Saturnian things in the life. If Saturn is in a good condition, of the sect and supported by sect-mates then he will bring good things to the native like management of other's property, the land or the sea and interest and profit from old things, but if he is out-of-sect and unsupported then poverty, illness and ill-fortune. A good example I saw today was that of horse jockey Frankie Dettori (http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Dettori,_Frankie). Antiohcus states that Saturn in a good state brings things to the native but at the expense of others. Saturn is in-sect and is in applying aspect with his lady, Venus, who is elevated in the 10th sign. Obviously, the "others" here are the horses that Dettori rides to gain his fortune. Tellingly, Saturn is in a bestial sign and rules the 12th sign from the ASC. I mention this as Saturn is Dettori's domicile master as he is the bound lord of the predominator, the Sun (I follow Rhetorius in using the bound lord rather than the domicile lord as suggested by Porphyry). Interestingly, Saturn as domicile master of the nativity is most revealing, not only are there indications of riding beasts but Saturn shows one's lineage - Dettori's father was also a jockey. The placement of Saturn in the 4th is surely important too, but moreso than Saturn's own significations? Who knows?

Related to your question, in Dettori's chart, Mars is elevated but out-of-sect and Dettori is indeed a phenomenal competitor but with Mars also acting as spear-bearer to the Sun, he will bring infamy and scandal. When Dettori's Hyleg entered the bounds of Mars/Pisces, he was banned from racing for 6 months for taking drugs. My point is, that I see Mars as causing harm anyway because he is elevated and out-of-sect. The place of Mars' harm is shown by examining Mars' role in the chart. Here he is spear-bearing for the Sun, so the person's fame and public actions produce harm and scandal. That Mars is in his own domicile is either here nor there, in my opinion (and contrawise if Mars was peregrine). Dettori also had a plane crash in 2000 which Mars had a hand in signifying, was that due to him squaring the ASC or opposing the ASC lord or both? I can't say. The revolution for that year has Saturn returning (while being the lord of the distributor of the Hyleg) with Mars transiting the natal ASC. I try to use house rulerships as little as possible, and use specific techniques and places such as the trigon lords of the sect light, doriphoria, Fortune, Spirit and the ASC to talk of the specifics in the life. Using house rulerships as the foundation or first point of call is a little too horaryish for me and not what I see the earliest natal astrologers doing.
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Unread 04-18-2014, 05:05 AM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

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I brought this topic up because recently I have done some charts of folks with lots of very dignified planets, but they were quite troubled. One young lady, with many planets exalted or in domicile, in particular, but the chart shouted out at me, trouble. It took about 30 minutes into the reading, but she finally admitted to me what was obvious. In that reading, and in others, I realized that dignified planets dig in, hold their ground, fight it out more, making the aspects, in my opinion, all the more intense.
I am still digesting your replies and looking at the chart (so little time these days) but this stood out to me. About a year or so ago I was working with a friend on trying to identify possible markers for schizophrenia in charts. I'm not sure we got very far with it, but one chart always stands out/comes to mind when thinking about charts with very dignified planets.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Rosenthal,_Richard
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Unread 04-18-2014, 05:48 AM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

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I am still digesting your replies and looking at the chart (so little time these days) but this stood out to me. About a year or so ago I was working with a friend on trying to identify possible markers for schizophrenia in charts. I'm not sure we got very far with it, but one chart always stands out/comes to mind when thinking about charts with very dignified planets.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Rosenthal,_Richard
Yes! Very interesting chart, and this is probably not the correct place to discuss it, but the tight orbs on both the Neptune opposition, and the Pluto trine are hard to miss. Strangely similar to the chart of that young lady, similar levels of dignity.

From a traditional standpoint, the combust Mercury could easily indicate a mind that is not completely it's own.
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Unread 04-18-2014, 07:35 AM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

tsmall, CactusLand, see http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Cozzens,_James as well.
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Unread 04-19-2014, 11:39 AM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

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tsmall, CactusLand, see http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Cozzens,_James as well.
Yes, very dignified chart...the patrician family, moon in 4th house cancer, he was blessed with a fortunate marriage, Venus in Libra in the seventh house.. (I am using whole sign houses) even the Saturn in Aquarius in the 11th, his success came late, and then, after winning the Pulitzer prize, he got a dose of humility after the Time interview, very Saturnian kind of success.

I am looking at his chart for 1947, when he won the Pulitzer prize, he was 44, good age for a writer to come of age. Transiting Jupiter in Sag in the 9th...

But getting back to the point, I think you can see the essential dignity here of each planet, and even though Jupiter in the 12th and Mars is in the 8th, both planets in domicile, he was very successful, but also always relegated a bit to the shadows.

Very interesting chart and very nice example of the power of essential dignity. Thanks for posting this.
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Unread 04-20-2014, 02:40 AM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

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Hi,

Thanks for your insightful response. I understand what you mean about mutual reception, but I am almost sure I heard Rob Hand in a lecture say that mutual reception did confer dignity...but I could have misunderstood, and I can't find it written.

Wiley may be the word, but from my experience, the peregrine planet lacks strength and luck. Triplicity,as Lee Lehman describes it, brings a bit of luck to the planetary energy.

My chart is an interesting one, I think, for the reason that it has so many peregrine planets, both luminaries in the 12th, Saturn square the chart ruler, Mercury, who is at the 'tiller' in his joy, but very debilitated by the very tight Saturn square. The other planet in an angular house, Mars, is in detriment in Libra. But in spite of their peregrine state and both being under assault from a Saturn in fall, Mars and Mercury in the chart have shown some energy, I believe, due to the angularity. I have had some success writing, was a reasonably good high school athlete, and have always loved a fight (but maybe that's because I am half Irish).

So what is it like to have all planets peregrine, except for a Jupiter in its own term, both luminaries in the 12th house, and a Balsamic moon under the rays?

I think approaching a chart like mine is a good exercise for astrologers, because, when we read someone's chart that looks like this one, what do we tell them?

Here is what I can say from my experience. One of the keys to this chart is the moon. The balsamic moon signifies the end of cycle, the 8th and final phase where it is time to tie up loose knots, and almost merge with the infinite again in a Piscean way. And if you use whole sign houses, the Sun and Moon move into the first house, but the North Node moves into the 12th..imo, equally murky.

If someone walked into my practice with my chart, I would look to see how connected they were to the world, and if I saw they were not, I would really nudge them towards a contemplative life.

For example, I have lived and worked in 4 countries, more jobs then I can remember, and one night, when I couldn't sleep, I counted having had 27 different residences. I have had many sentimental relationships, worked in many fields, some with distinction, but nothing ever took. It has been almost impossible to put roots down professionally, relationship wise, family wise, location wise etc. I believe this type of life is a reflection of the lack of strength in these planets. Imagine, not one of them in his home, or even a guest, and only one is allowed to sit in his own chair? How can they force an issue if they aren't even wearing their own clothes? Wiley they had better be.

For a long time I thought I was doomed, until I finally gave into myself, and since then, I feel like I have cracked the nut of this chart.

The Gnostics had an idea that the planets were to be overcome, transcended, as was the zodiac. There was a concept that beyond the 7 planets, and beyond the zodiac, one met Jesus and Sophia. It's a bit like the Tarot cards of The Lovers and The Devil.... they are practically the same card, but what at a more earthy or physical level, love and attachment are great, they later become chains. The Devil guards the gate to the last 6 spiritual cards, the transcendent cards. Before you can pass him, you must have given up those things. You can't have any hooks in you if you want to really reach a high level of consciousness.

I would compare it a bit to waking up to the Matrix. Living in the Matrix is great, but once you wake up to it, it stops working, you can't go back. The soul moves down through Saturn (time and culture) Jupiter (religion and philosophy) Mars (power, the tribe, the more basic urges.). etc.. etc.. until we get to earth, and then we have to make the return trip.

The weakness of this chart from an earthly point of view is exactly it's strength in a transcendent one. Shift things around a bit, and I have a Sun in Aries, Saturn in Capricorn, an new moon in Taurus conjunct Venus, and I am a happy, worldly, successful person, but I am also far too attached to this world to ever transcend it.

From a traditional stand point, there are doomed charts, and this is a good example of one, but doomed for this world. But maybe a chart like this pushes the native towards the transcendent, success beyond this world. Again, as the Gnostics emphasized, maybe this world is not all its cracked up to be.

If the native dreams of a cushy corporate life, a happy marriage, and weekends at the golf club- this is not a good chart for him. But there are other lives and other paths, and the path less taken would be the appropriate one for this chart.
Hi Cactusland!

I noticed too that you are a triple Gemini and some of your comments about yourself and chart were telling as I have never met a person with that configuration before. Maybe like being a kinda human alarm clock? I promise I'm not making fun of you. I have a distant relative who is a triple Scorpio and boy was she fun! And I have met here a triple Pisces and a triple Leo. I just thought I would mention it to you and if you had any words of wisdom about that.

Thank you and God bless.
S5
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Unread 04-20-2014, 05:22 AM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

Currently, my perspective is that if the planets have no dignities, their favourable influences on the native is diminished; to some extent, their natural strength is lowered as well.

Reading Firmicus and many posts by Schmidt and other people made me realise that there is certainly more to the matter than essential dignities.


The main concern is with the malefics; benefic planets, even when essentially undignified, will still provide good things (unless they are debilitated horizonally and heliacally as well), although the favourability of the provision is lessened. Malefic planets, when undignified, especially when maltreated, will destroy the native's life indiscriminately.

Tentatively, you do not want undignified malefics on the angles dominating the degree of life and/or the givers of life, and be maltreated without being bonified or dominated by a benefic in return. But placing them in the 6th or 12th is also dangerous; they will be activated when they rule over the times. It's a matter of balance, I guess.

Thankfully, both of your malefics are placed in the 5th and 11th; they do not aspect the Ascendant as strongly, nor are they dejected. The issue is mainly the affliction of Mercury, the ascendant lord and significator of the soul, by Saturn. Do you suffer from depression, and have you ever had falls from height?

I don't know if it is relevant, but I have a well-placed and elevated Saturn but maltreated by the Sun, and I have chronic depression (though not too serious) and in my teens, I have suffered falls from stairs quite a number of times.

So far I have only seen one chart with no essential dignities whatsoever (I use Maternus's terms, which is similar to Dorothean terms), and the person had dominating malefics. He was a master of feigned appearances (Saturn), and eventually became a serial murderer (Mars) to keep up his appearances: Jean-Claude Romand Mystery Chart
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Unread 04-20-2014, 05:26 AM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

I have long since, simply combined essentials+accidentals, and used the net to make estimations regarding each planet's potentials...
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Unread 04-20-2014, 05:46 AM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

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Originally Posted by serafin5 View Post
Hi Cactusland!

I noticed too that you are a triple Gemini and some of your comments about yourself and chart were telling as I have never met a person with that configuration before. Maybe like being a kinda human alarm clock? I promise I'm not making fun of you. I have a distant relative who is a triple Scorpio and boy was she fun! And I have met here a triple Pisces and a triple Leo. I just thought I would mention it to you and if you had any words of wisdom about that.

Thank you and God bless.
S5
Hi S5,

I see you are (maybe) near another one of my favorite Gemini's in the "high desert of the great American Southwest", Art Bell. He, for me, is consummate Gemini. Sun, Mercury and MC... but yes, I am Gemini on steroids, Sun, Moon, Asc, and Mercury in first house, ruler of my chart. I did the scoring for Almuten of chart once, it was ridiculous, Mercury one by a landslide. You won't be surprised to find out I have a tatoo of the Mercury glyph on my shoulder.

In a nutshell, I think I am the most curious person I have ever met, I am interested in almost everything, nothing bores me, ideas fascinate me, as does language. Too bad I was born with Mercury in Cancer and that blasted Saturn square to Mercury, or I would have been a famous writer ...I must sound like Marlon Brando.. ha ha. But I love being a Gemini, and Mercury is my lord and master. Of course, we super Geminis have our bad side, and I have done my share of shady dealings.. Another wonderful thing about being so Gemini, is that I can always see the other guys point of view, it is natural for me..the bad side of that is I can, at will, play the devils advocate to annoy people.

One boss told me I was an idea machine... bad side of that it, longevity.. the passion for an idea lasts until I feel like I have a basic understanding of it. That is why I think I love astrology so much, you never really feel like 'you got it', it is inherently elusive, and that is why I think I found my calling in the esoteric arts, as soon as you get close enough to say, "i got it", it slips out of your hands.

Talking about Scorpions like your cousin the triple Scorpion, another almost triple scorpion is one of my heroes, Terence Mckenna, Sun, Asc, Jupiter and Venus in Scorpio, and boy was he fun.

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?w...NQQNL2OP0yvOZk

Is there a place on the forum to post charts of people like Mckenna and start a thread on interpretations? I think it would be really interesting to hear different points of view on his chart. I think a lot of people here are probably into him, and he was very open to astrology, alchemy and of course the shrooms!!!

That last paragraph was very triple Gemini.. ha ha..

Best,

CactusLand
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Unread 04-20-2014, 06:04 AM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

That would be the Celebrity Astrology forum.
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Unread 04-20-2014, 06:04 AM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larxene View Post
Currently, my perspective is that if the planets have no dignities, their favourable influences on the native is diminished; to some extent, their natural strength is lowered as well.

Reading Firmicus and many posts by Schmidt and other people made me realise that there is certainly more to the matter than essential dignities.


The main concern is with the malefics; benefic planets, even when essentially undignified, will still provide good things (unless they are debilitated horizonally and heliacally as well), although the favourability of the provision is lessened. Malefic planets, when undignified, especially when maltreated, will destroy the native's life indiscriminately.

Tentatively, you do not want undignified malefics on the angles dominating the degree of life and/or the givers of life, and be maltreated without being bonified or dominated by a benefic in return. But placing them in the 6th or 12th is also dangerous; they will be activated when they rule over the times. It's a matter of balance, I guess.

Thankfully, both of your malefics are placed in the 5th and 11th; they do not aspect the Ascendant as strongly, nor are they dejected. The issue is mainly the affliction of Mercury, the ascendant lord and significator of the soul, by Saturn. Do you suffer from depression, and have you ever had falls from height?

I don't know if it is relevant, but I have a well-placed and elevated Saturn but maltreated by the Sun, and I have chronic depression (though not too serious) and in my teens, I have suffered falls from stairs quite a number of times.

So far I have only seen one chart with no essential dignities whatsoever (I use Maternus's terms, which is similar to Dorothean terms), and the person had dominating malefics. He was a master of feigned appearances (Saturn), and eventually became a serial murderer (Mars) to keep up his appearances: Jean-Claude Romand Mystery Chart
Hi Larxene,

Thanks for the comments, very interesting. Glad to see I am in good company,, ha h Yes, I have a tendency toward being slightly depressed, but I keep it in check, I would say it is more like dysthymia. And remember, people who are bit depressed score much higher on aptitude tests, seems that mindset helps ones perception. But as I have gotten older, I realized that having a spiritual life, a liturgy (in my case astrology, Tarot and other esoteric arts), a rich intellectual life, and not drinking too much, can really keep that darn Saturn from taking over.

Knock on wood, no bad fall from heights, but I have a terrible fear of heights, and a recurring dream of a plane crash... maybe some connection there?

One question, you say, "(unless they are debilitated horizonally and heliacally as well)" I don't follow you there, could you explain that?

As having all, or almost all of my planets peregrine, I have definitely felt a lack of strength, or favorable influences from the benefics, and certainly some real problems with that Mars...he is not a happy Mars... but, in a way, I have tapped into that unhappy, justice crazed Mars in Libra through my political writing. Some of those articles do sound a bit like a crazed Mars in Libra... keep in mind, the trine to the Sun from Mars is very tight, 6 seconds. Those type of articles, a few of which have had a pretty wide distribution, I think are an interesting example of how one can harness some of that type of energy... beats the hell out of becoming a serial killer.. ha ha..

Thanks again for your thoughts

Best,

Cactusland
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Unread 04-20-2014, 07:17 PM
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Re: All Traditional Planets Peregrine

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Originally Posted by CactusLand View Post
Hi S5,

I see you are (maybe) near another one of my favorite Gemini's in the "high desert of the great American Southwest", Art Bell. He, for me, is consummate Gemini. Sun, Mercury and MC... but yes, I am Gemini on steroids, Sun, Moon, Asc, and Mercury in first house, ruler of my chart. I did the scoring for Almuten of chart once, it was ridiculous, Mercury one by a landslide. You won't be surprised to find out I have a tatoo of the Mercury glyph on my shoulder.

In a nutshell, I think I am the most curious person I have ever met, I am interested in almost everything, nothing bores me, ideas fascinate me, as does language. Too bad I was born with Mercury in Cancer and that blasted Saturn square to Mercury, or I would have been a famous writer ...I must sound like Marlon Brando.. ha ha. But I love being a Gemini, and Mercury is my lord and master. Of course, we super Geminis have our bad side, and I have done my share of shady dealings.. Another wonderful thing about being so Gemini, is that I can always see the other guys point of view, it is natural for me..the bad side of that is I can, at will, play the devils advocate to annoy people.

One boss told me I was an idea machine... bad side of that it, longevity.. the passion for an idea lasts until I feel like I have a basic understanding of it. That is why I think I love astrology so much, you never really feel like 'you got it', it is inherently elusive, and that is why I think I found my calling in the esoteric arts, as soon as you get close enough to say, "i got it", it slips out of your hands.

Talking about Scorpions like your cousin the triple Scorpion, another almost triple scorpion is one of my heroes, Terence Mckenna, Sun, Asc, Jupiter and Venus in Scorpio, and boy was he fun.

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?w...NQQNL2OP0yvOZk

Is there a place on the forum to post charts of people like Mckenna and start a thread on interpretations? I think it would be really interesting to hear different points of view on his chart. I think a lot of people here are probably into him, and he was very open to astrology, alchemy and of course the shrooms!!!

That last paragraph was very triple Gemini.. ha ha..

Best,

CactusLand
LOL you crack me up! No I'm not surprised that you have a mercury glyph as a tattoo, nor am I surprised that you are a person of ideas either. And while it can be fun being you the really worst thing for you other than a general restlessness is probably boredom, right? Your wife must be an incredible women as you married her, I imagine, and I assume she is super smart like yourself. So true that astrology never gets old dull or boring; I'm the eternal student!

Dr. Farr posted that yes if you go to the sub-forum called the "celebrity forum" you can post the charts of the infamous triple Gemini and Scorpio people you are familiar with as a "thumbnail" chart. And there are easy directions (sorta easy) for the download at the Natal charts forum too. I will be looking forward to these charts from you, I hope, in the near future, ok? So interesting and fun finding a triple Gemini!!!

God bless
Serafin5
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