Da Vinci Code – Is Any Of It Fact?

leomoon

leomoon

Well-known member
I think relics are the weirdest strangest thing that humans do in the various Churches, starting with Roman catholic and Coptic Christian catholic church. I'm sure others do that "bones & head & whatever body part" thing too! Rather gory, imo. :sick:




The Coptic Church accords with identifying Mark the Evangelist with John Mark, as well as that he was one of the Seventy Disciples sent out by Christ (Luke 10:1), as Hippolytus confirmed.[26] Coptic tradition also holds that Mark the Evangelist hosted the disciples in his house after Jesus's death, that the resurrected Jesus Christ came to Mark's house (John 20), and that the Holy Spirit descended on the disciples at Pentecost in the same house.[26] Furthermore, Mark is also believed to have been among the servants at the Marriage at Cana who poured out the water that Jesus turned to wine (John 2:1–11).[26]





According to the Coptic tradition, Mark was born in Cyrene, a city in the Pentapolis of North Africa (now Libya). This tradition adds that Mark returned to Pentapolis later in life, after being sent by Paul to Colossae (Colossians 4:10; Philemon 24. Some, however, think these actually refer to Mark the Cousin of Barnabas), and serving with him in Rome (2 Tim 4:11); from Pentapolis he made his way to Alexandria.[27][28] When Mark returned to Alexandria, the pagans of the city resented his efforts to turn the Alexandrians away from the worship of their traditional gods.[citation needed] In AD 68, they placed a rope around his neck and dragged him through the streets until he was dead.[29]
 
leomoon

leomoon

Well-known member
The earliest Christian church in the world:



https://www.ancient-origins.net/history/origins-ancient-coptic-church-egypt-002462



The Coptic Church of Egypt is the earliest Christian church in the world, going back to around 42 AD. According to Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea, as well as Coptic traditions, Saint Mark the evangelist, who wrote the earliest of the four New Testament gospels, was the founder and first bishop of the Church of Alexandria, even before the Church of Rome was established. In his landmark History of the Church , written in Greek about the year 310, Eusebius writes: "Now, they say that this Mark was the first to have set out to Egypt to preach the gospel, which he had already written down, and the first to have organized churches in Alexandria itself " (Eusebius, HE 2.16.1). This information is supplemented by Eusebius’s Chronicle, where he places Mark’s arrival in Alexandria in the third year of Claudius’ reign, which would be AD 41-42 or 43-44. This is no more than ten years after the date fixed for the death of Jesus, traditionally held to be in AD 33.
 
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petosiris

Banned
leomoon said:
The earliest Christian church in the world:



https://www.ancient-origins.net/history/origins-ancient-coptic-church-egypt-002462



The Coptic Church of Egypt is the earliest Christian church in the world, going back to around 42 AD. According to Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea, as well as Coptic traditions, Saint Mark the evangelist, who wrote the earliest of the four New Testament gospels, was the founder and first bishop of the Church of Alexandria, even before the Church of Rome was established. In his landmark History of the Church , written in Greek about the year 310, Eusebius writes: "Now, they say that this Mark was the first to have set out to Egypt to preach the gospel, which he had already written down, and the first to have organized churches in Alexandria itself " (Eusebius, HE 2.16.1). This information is supplemented by Eusebius’s Chronicle, where he places Mark’s arrival in Alexandria in the third year of Claudius’ reign, which would be AD 41-42 or 43-44. This is no more than ten years after the date fixed for the death of Jesus, traditionally held to be in AD 33.
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Leomoon, do you stop to think about what I say? Was Mark a Copt or a Jew? From which church does he come from? The baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch, and Cornelius and some of the missionary journeys of Paul are earlier than that. So I don't think they are the first Gentile believers, much less the first Christians, who were all Jews and proselytes without exception. Jesus himself first came to the children of Israel and not to the dogs outside of it. They were later grafted in after he fulfilled the dispensation of the crucifixion and outpoured the Holy Spirit on them, making them children of Abraham by faith.
 
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leomoon

leomoon

Well-known member
petosiris said:
Leomoon, do you stop to think about what I say? Was Mark a Copt or a Jew? From which church does he come from? The baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch, and Cornelius and some of the missionary journeys of Paul are earlier than that. So I don't think they are the first Gentile believers, much less the first Christians, who were all Jews and proselytes without exception.
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Religions all start by men (usually not women, btw) - unless a cult was started in recent times in the Southwest, a woman started one.


You know the answer, so why ask me as though you are a teacher lording it over some student? Perhaps thats why I hooked high school as well as lower classes:biggrin: :rightful: OK, Mr. pretend Teacher: - Drone on....


I don't believe he got a certificate or license to operate a church if that is what you are suggesting. :sideways:
Ref
---Quote (Originally by leomoon)--- I (personally speaking) do not ASSUME anything concerning the Bible, new or old testaments. The New Testament however, is moreso of interest to me putting aside assumptions. The footnotes, (numbers included), lead to source material: ---End Quote--- Are you saying you don't believe it BECAUSE it is in the Bible?
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Of course not, I'm not "that" closed minded, lol. I'm open to all ideas, suggestions and after hearing them I discard or accept as true for me. The 3 generally accepted gospels in the NT, are all "fine by me"...and accepted. But not line by line, by line ...because I am not a robot or a parrot.
 
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petosiris

Banned
leomoon said:
Religions all start by men (usually not women, btw) - unless a cult was started in recent times in the Southwest, a woman started one.


You know the answer, so why ask me as though you are a teacher lording it over some student? Perhaps thats why I hooked high school as well as lower classes:biggrin: :rightful: OK, Mr. pretend Teacher: - Drone on....


I don't believe he got a certificate or license to operate a church if that is what you are suggesting. :sideways:
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Do you not know the sects of Ellen G. White, Helena Blavatsky, Annie Besant and Alice Bailey?

Thankfully, the apostle Paul forbade a woman to teach and usurp authority over men in the assembly, and no one of the apostles appointed any woman to the office of an elder/overseer (they were the same thing in the early church and it is equivalent to your pastor) as was the custom of the synagogue. They could serve as deacons and prophesy (if they had the gift) and fulfill any other function of a believer, but leading and overseeing an assembly. And they are equal heirs of the promises made to Abraham along men, provided they live as women adorned with good deeds and without any envy.
 
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petosiris

Banned
Of course not, I'm not "that" closed minded, lol. I'm open to all ideas, suggestions and after hearing them I discard or accept as true for me. The 3 generally accepted gospels in the NT, are all "fine by me"...and accepted. But not line by line, by line ...because I am not a robot or a parrot.
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Fine, fine. The gospels in the NT canon are 4 and are accepted by everyone who is not separated from the body of Christ. :smile:
 
leomoon

leomoon

Well-known member
petosiris said:
Do you not know the sects of Ellen G. White, Helena Blavatsky, Annie Besant and Alice Bailey?

Thankfully, the apostle Paul forbade a woman to teach and usurp authority over men in the assembly, and no one of the apostles appointed any woman to the office of an elder/overseer (they were the same thing in the early church and it is equivalent to your pastor) as was the custom of the synagogue. They could serve as deacons and prophesy (if they had the gift) and fulfill any other function of a believer, but leading and overseeing an assembly. And they are equal heirs of the promises made to Abraham along men, provided they live as women adorned with good deeds and without any envy.
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Yes, of course I know "of them"....Mostly European born, British, and worked with Leadbetter going to India to find a guru (which as you are aware too, they did!......doesn't really prove anything, for a subject to divert off into anyway.


Thats probably why I don't like Paul in particular. Only one or two lines ascribed to him, I find endearing. the best example being the so-called "Love Gospel" I give him a lot of credit for, but his not wanting women ......boo, humbug, and all that rot!



He actually did have women as I recall,

Supporters of giving women power in the Church most frequently cite the letter to the Romans, Chapter 16. In its list of nearly 30 active early Christians, at least eight are women.
Some commentators stress the fact that one, Priscilla (Prisca in the original Greek), is named before her husband Aquila.
Another couple, Junia and Andronicus, are said to be "eminent among the apostles".
Some have doubted Junia was a woman at all. As late as the 1960s the New English Bible described her as Junias, a man.
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Also a non-starter for me. That was THEN, this is NOW.



Had Jesus started his own church he would have chosen his female apostle, the 13th - Mary of Magdala. Paul wouldn't have made it to 2nd base!


Gospel of Mary - Wikipedia

https://[B]en.wikipedia.org[/B]/wiki/Gospel_of_Maryhttps://www.bing.com/search?form=MOZTSB&pc=MOZI&q=gospel+of+Mary#

9k=


The Gospel of Mary is an apocryphal book discovered in 1896 in a 5th-century papyrus codex written in Sahidic Coptic. This Berlin Codex was purchased in Cairo by German diplomat Carl Reinhardt. Although the work is popularly known as the Gospel of Mary, it is not technically classed as a gospel by scholastic consensus because "the term 'gospel' is used as a label for any written text that is primarily focused on recounting the teachings and/or activities of Jesus during his adult life".



The Berlin Codex, also known as the Akhmim Codex, also contains the Apocryphon of John, the Sophia of Jesus Christ, and a summary of the Act of Peter. All four works contained in the manuscript are written in the Sahidic dialect of Coptic. Two other fragments of the Gospel of Mary have been discovered since, both written in Greek (Papyrus Oxyrhynchus L 3525 and Papyrus Rylands 463). P.Oxy. L 3525
 
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leomoon

leomoon

Well-known member
OPAL:
You may well be interested in the Gospel of Mary - although its quite short (chapters & pages are missing) - Karen King, the scholar as well as the scholar on all things Gnostic, Elaine Pagels, tackled the scroll together to come to some fascinating conclusions about the missing pages and what they may be about -

Chapter 4

(Pages 1 to 6 of the manuscript, containing chapters 1 - 3, are lost. The extant text starts on page 7...)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mary



According to Bart Ehrman, "Mary (Magdalene) is accorded a high status among the apostles of Jesus." Levi actually acknowledges that Jesus loved her more than he loved all of the other apostles. Mary claimed to have had a conversation with Jesus, and Andrew and Peter questioned this. "Four pages are lost from the manuscript", so there is really no way for anyone to know exactly what happened.[22]
De Boer (2004), however, suggests that the Gospel of Mary should not be read as a Gnostic specific text, but that it is to be "interpreted in the light of a broader Christian context". She argues that the Gospel stems from a monistic view of creation rather than the dualistic one central to Gnostic theology and also that the Gospel’s views of both Nature and an opposite nature are more similar to Jewish, Christian, and Stoic beliefs. She suggests that the soul is not to be freed from Powers of Matter, but rather from the powers of the opposite nature. She also claims that the Gospel’s main purpose is to encourage fearful disciples to go out and preach the gospel.
Karen King considers the work to provide
an intriguing glimpse into a kind of Christianity lost for almost fifteen hundred years...[it] presents a radical interpretation of Jesus' teachings as a path to inner spiritual knowledge; it rejects His suffering and death as the path to eternal life; it exposes the erroneous view that Mary of Magdala was a prostitute for what it is—a piece of theological fiction; it presents the most straightforward and convincing argument in any early Christian writing for the legitimacy of women's leadership; it offers a sharp critique of illegitimate power and a utopian vision of spiritual perfection; it challenges our rather romantic views about the harmony and unanimity of the first Christians; and it asks us to rethink the basis for church authority
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King concludes that “both the content and the text’s structure lead the reader inward toward the identity, power and freedom of the true self, the soul set free from the Powers of Matter and the fear of death”. “The Gospel of Mary is about inter-Christian controversies, the reliability of the disciples’ witness, the validity of teachings given to the disciples through post-resurrection revelation and vision, and the leadership of women.”[21]
King also sees evidence for tensions within 2nd-century Christianity, reflected in "the confrontation of Mary with Peter, [which is] a scenario also found in The Gospel of Thomas,[24] Pistis Sophia,[25] and the Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians. Peter and Andrew represent orthodox positions which deny the validity of esoteric revelation and reject the authority of women to teach.
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Elaine Pagels in the Gnostic Gospels (Amazon review) says:
Gnostic gospels takes the Nag Hammadi scrolls and shows that there were many gospels around the time of Christ. The fact that these gospels were jarred up and buried shows that they were not the favored gospels and possession was tantamount to death

You can read portions of it here - without the expert insertions of missing pieces by King & Pagels: (scroll down a bit)


http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm
 
Opal

Opal

Premium Member
leomoon said:
to correct: I didn't say that James was more important or mentioned more then Jesus was by his own brethern or friends in the Jesus "cult" then; rather I suggested the James as Josephus wrote in his Jewish History anthology; is that James was the more well known amongst the Jews (generically speaking)....a far larger group of people in ancient Palestine then the Jesus cult (for lack of a better word)



I have no idea of who was more influential then who in their actual post death religion they attempted to create and eventually did. I think James was greatly respected and even the Gnostic Gospels mention that Jesus was told to "go to James" for advice, after he dies. :kissing:
Actually, HERE is what I said above:
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I have also read, that James the Just was a brother to Jesus. There are so many writings, with differing opinions. One mentions that Jesus of Nazereth was the military leader, and that James the Just was the spiritual leader, whom was also crucified, and let down of the Tau.

I agree, also, that James is not granted the same respect that he deserves.
 
Opal

Opal

Premium Member
leomoon said:
For those just reading now, and confused about who is who:



  • Flavius Josephus was a 1st century Jewish historian (37 – 100 AD).
  • He was a commander of the Jewish forces in Galilee and would later become a Roman citizen.
  • Was employed as a historian by the Flavian (Roman) emperors Vespasian, Titus, and Domitian.
  • Mentions Jesus in his historical writings (and his brother James cf. Antiquities 20.200).
Josephus removes any doubt that Jesus actually existed.Jonathan Morrow​
As scholars have thought about this over the years, the picture has become clearer. Especially helpful is a passage of a 10th century Arabic manuscript of Josephus that was cited by historian Schlomo Pines of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem in 1972:
“At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.” (10th Century Arabic Text)

https://www.jonathanmorrow.org/what-did-the-jewish-historian-josephus-really-say-about-jesus/
The argument about the Testament of Jesus description is found here too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus



His historical Biography here:

Flavius Josephus | Jewish priest, scholar, and historian ...

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Flavius-Josephus
Flavius Josephus, original name Joseph Ben Matthias, (born ad 37/38, Jerusalem—died ad 100, Rome), Jewish priest, scholar, and historian who wrote valuable works on the Jewish revolt of 66–70 and on earlier Jewish history. His major books are History of the Jewish War (75–79), The Antiquities of the Jews (93), and Against Apion


​
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So, if he existed, as a man, I still have issues with his being the actual son of God. The virgin birth, it is so myth like. In every culture I believe there is virgin birth beliefs.

I am heading out of town for a few days next week, I will put Josephus book in my suit case. I was invited to a book sale of ancient history and theologies last year. $1 for soft covers, $2 for hard. I had to buy another bookcase as we spent $120.00.:tongue:
 
Opal

Opal

Premium Member
leomoon said:
OPAL:
You may well be interested in the Gospel of Mary - although its quite short (chapters & pages are missing) - Karen King, the scholar as well as the scholar on all things Gnostic, Elaine Pagels, tackled the scroll together to come to some fascinating conclusions about the missing pages and what they may be about -

Chapter 4

(Pages 1 to 6 of the manuscript, containing chapters 1 - 3, are lost. The extant text starts on page 7...)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mary







Elaine Pagels in the Gnostic Gospels (Amazon review) says:
Gnostic gospels takes the Nag Hammadi scrolls and shows that there were many gospels around the time of Christ. The fact that these gospels were jarred up and buried shows that they were not the favored gospels and possession was tantamount to death

You can read portions of it here - without the expert insertions of missing pieces by King & Pagels: (scroll down a bit)


http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htmhttp://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm
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I am pretty sure I have this too. I haven't had a chance to read them all yet. But I am enjoying the journey. :joyful: I have the Nag Hammadi's and have read about the first half. And The Other Bible is pretty cool too. very similar to the Nags. The ancient writings speak to me. I don't have the same feeling when I have read Christian books. The ancient writings make me feel warm and happy.
 
leomoon

leomoon

Well-known member
Have a great time there Opal. Happy reading!



btw: I said I thought James (the Just), is a 1/2 brother of Jesus of Nazareth, and was a son of Joseph the widower who married Mary. He actually received a lot of regard and was well respected amongst his Jewish peers. They knew him apparently well, but didn't know Jesus of course as well.



One much older then the other I would suspect, and likely Jesus traveled.





Now I'm onto Egeria, (Monk's link) has enamored me and grabbed my attention:


http://www.egeriaproject.net/pigr_m...ENN16S4GMgq1Bw6h8kf0ild2hfNZ16nUuAOOfbSwRGENk


Maybe when you return:
This -

I still have issues with his being the actual son of God.
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We are ALL "sons and daughters" of God. (wink)
 
Opal

Opal

Premium Member
leomoon said:
Yes, of course I know "of them"....Mostly European born, British, and worked with Leadbetter going to India to find a guru (which as you are aware too, they did!......doesn't really prove anything, for a subject to divert off into anyway.


Thats probably why I don't like Paul in particular. Only one or two lines ascribed to him, I find endearing. the best example being the so-called "Love Gospel" I give him a lot of credit for, but his not wanting women ......boo, humbug, and all that rot!



He actually did have women as I recall,


Also a non-starter for me. That was THEN, this is NOW.



Had Jesus started his own church he would have chosen his female apostle, the 13th - Mary of Magdala. Paul wouldn't have made it to 2nd base!


Gospel of Mary - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mary

9k=


The Gospel of Mary is an apocryphal book discovered in 1896 in a 5th-century papyrus codex written in Sahidic Coptic. This Berlin Codex was purchased in Cairo by German diplomat Carl Reinhardt. Although the work is popularly known as the Gospel of Mary, it is not technically classed as a gospel by scholastic consensus because "the term 'gospel' is used as a label for any written text that is primarily focused on recounting the teachings and/or activities of Jesus during his adult life".



The Berlin Codex, also known as the Akhmim Codex, also contains the Apocryphon of John, the Sophia of Jesus Christ, and a summary of the Act of Peter. All four works contained in the manuscript are written in the Sahidic dialect of Coptic. Two other fragments of the Gospel of Mary have been discovered since, both written in Greek (Papyrus Oxyrhynchus L 3525 and Papyrus Rylands 463). P.Oxy. L 3525
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Mary has been referred to as the first pope. I have read some of the above.

Like I said earlier, they make me happy!
 
Opal

Opal

Premium Member
petosiris said:
You neither know nor understand the things about which you are making confident assertions. And you wouldn't allow any Christian who reads the Scriptures and is empowered by God to explain these matters to you.

Opal, do you love the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth?
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As much as I love the name Jesus Christ of Barabbas.

I keep telling you, I am here to discuss the astrology of them all. I am not here to find Christianity. They lost me many moons ago.:joyful:
 
Opal

Opal

Premium Member
petosiris said:
Leomoon, do you stop to think about what I say? Was Mark a Copt or a Jew? From which church does he come from? The baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch, and Cornelius and some of the missionary journeys of Paul are earlier than that. So I don't think they are the first Gentile believers, much less the first Christians, who were all Jews and proselytes without exception. Jesus himself first came to the children of Israel and not to the dogs outside of it. They were later grafted in after he fulfilled the dispensation of the crucifixion and outpoured the Holy Spirit on them, making them children of Abraham by faith.
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You should really expand your reading material. Try, Jesus, The Man by Barbara Thiering. It really is enlightening.
 
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petosiris

Banned
Opal said:
As much as I love the name Jesus Christ of Barabbas.

I keep telling you, I am here to discuss the astrology of them all. I am not here to find Christianity. They lost me many moons ago.:joyful:
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I asked you about the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, that Jesus which is known and loved by Christians. Tell me if you love that well-known Jesus, for there is a curse on anyone that preaches another Jesus and a counterfeit gospel.
 
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petosiris

Banned
Opal said:
So, if he existed, as a man, I still have issues with his being the actual son of God. The virgin birth, it is so myth like. In every culture I believe there is virgin birth beliefs.

I am heading out of town for a few days next week, I will put Josephus book in my suit case. I was invited to a book sale of ancient history and theologies last year. $1 for soft covers, $2 for hard. I had to buy another bookcase as we spent $120.00.:tongue:
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The adversary was well aware of the prophecies in the Scriptures of the Jews concerning the virgin conception, and the power of the Christ, and that he will take our infirmities and bear our diseases, that he would wash his garments in the blood of the grape, so he tried to imitate them in the myths of false gods such as Perseus, and Hercules, and Asclepius, and Bacchus, and Mythras, and so on. But none of these gods, even if they were real, is able to fulfill all the requirements of the Jewish Messiah as Jesus of Nazareth has, and as can be verified by multiple eyewitnesses. I would remind you that the belief in a Messiah son of David is a wholly Jewish belief.

But, if you think that the virginal conception is a myth, because you have no faith and claim that it is impossible, then in that regard you are condemned in pleading against God, for the begetting of the first man, who is our common father, is even more miraculous than a virginal begetting, since Jesus as a man doesn't have a human father, but Adam doesn't have human parents.
 
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