How important is mythology in the meaning of planets and signs?

waybread

Well-known member
I think it may have been a factor in determining the meanings of the planets but I don't think it was the determining factor.

The meanings of the planets seem to come from a combination of myth and astronomical factors like speed and visibility, with the latter definitely outweighing the former. Astrological Jupiter has very little in common with his mythological namesake, and his benefic qualities seem to come more from the planet's radiant appearance in the night sky than Jupiter's mythological exploits.

There was some level of association between the myths and planets but not one to one, strict identifications. The planets are clusters of ideas and myths are only a part of that cluster.

But for people practicing traditional astrology in the 21st century, the myths surrounding the gods associated with the planets are largely irrelevant for astrological practice. Unless you're into that kind of thing.

Being "into that kind of thing" might take one into esoteric realms. Cf. Mercury (Hermes, Hermanubis) as the psychopomp, or conductor of the souls of the dead.

I take your point that you could read a horoscope in a completely workmanlike manner.

But once we start asking why questions, then the mythological cosmos beckons.

Why does Mercury rule liars and thieves?

Why does Mars rule soldiers?

Why does Saturn rule the elderly?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Being "into that kind of thing" might take one into esoteric realms.
Cf. Mercury (Hermes, Hermanubis) as the psychopomp,
or conductor of the souls of the dead.
I take your point that you could read a horoscope in a completely workmanlike manner.
But once we start asking why questions, then the mythological cosmos beckons.

Why does Mercury rule liars and thieves?
Why does Mars rule soldiers?
Why does Saturn rule the elderly?
however :smile:
I think
it may have been a factor
in determining the meanings of the planets
but I don't think it was the determining factor.

The meanings of the planets seem to come from a combination of myth and astronomical factors like speed and visibility, with the latter definitely outweighing the former. Astrological Jupiter has very little in common with his mythological namesake, and his benefic qualities seem to come more from the planet's radiant appearance in the night sky than Jupiter's mythological exploits.

There was some level of association between the myths and planets
but not one to one, strict identifications.
The planets are clusters of ideas

and myths are only a part of that cluster.
But for people practicing traditional astrology in the 21st century
the myths surrounding the gods associated with the planets
are largely irrelevant for astrological practice.
Unless you're into that kind of thing.
 

Opal

Premium Member
Originally Posted by Opal

Alexander Eliot wrote The Global Myths.

While he is not an astrologer,

reading on the Global myths you can see an obvious correlation between myth and the astrological interpretation of entities. While the traditionalists say there is no correlation, they did not get there information from past word of mouth or writings, I am inclined to disagree. The coincidences are too many for it to be chance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal


When an entity is refound, or renamed, we go to the name of it, and if it is found in past writings, that is where we start to draw our knowledge from.

[Deleted reference to Uranus because this is a traditional thread.


Do not post ANYTHING on the traditional astrologer board without reading AND FOLLOWING traditional forum rules! - Moderator]

When looking at the fixed stars the myth is used to explain the affects it gifts to astrological meaning. They seem to work together.

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@JupiterAsc

Do traditionalist astrologers only use ancient history books written by astrologers? If a traditionalist is limited to only books written by astrologers it must be very hard to read history.

Thanks for pointing out what Osamenor wrote. I would not have missed it if even without your reiteration.

Opal
 
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sworm09

Well-known member
Being "into that kind of thing" might take one into esoteric realms. Cf. Mercury (Hermes, Hermanubis) as the psychopomp, or conductor of the souls of the dead.

I take your point that you could read a horoscope in a completely workmanlike manner.

But once we start asking why questions, then the mythological cosmos beckons.

Why does Mercury rule liars and thieves?

Why does Mars rule soldiers?

Why does Saturn rule the elderly?

Sure....

But remember (and this is not to be exclusionary) that you're on a traditional subforum. The mythological cosmos doesn't really play into the predictive nature of traditional astrology. I'm actually understating it, it almost never plays into the predictive nature of traditional astrology. I would actually argue that delving into mythology would get in the way of the concrete interpretations that traditional aims for.

I'm sure that one could come to all kinds of insights through meditating on the mythology tied to the planets and especially the mythology tied to the constellations and fixed stars, but that kind of meditation is more in line with modern practice than it is with the predictive nature of traditional. If someone wants to know what their chart says about what kind of career they're inclined toward or how likely it is that they'll get married, mythology isn't much of a factor.

There's nothing wrong with being interested in mythology, but I disagree that not incorporating mythology into your delineations necessitates that you're reading the chart in a "workman" like manner. Traditional astrology is rife with analogies and metaphors that have nothing to do with mythology. Factors mean things because of metaphorical similarities that they have to other things. Even Ptolemy's physical language is very vivid , giving the planets and signs a richness that rivals what one would get from mythology. His language is distinctly agricultural, rich and down to earth but also very practical. Astrology is by its very nature a system of analogies.

You can start asking why questions without resorting to mythology. It's very bold of you to assume that investigating mythology is the only way that people can be reflective about their astrology. Ptolemy chose to ask these questions by resorting to Aristotle's physics. Ibn Ezra asked those questions by combining Ptolemy's stuff with astronomical factors. The writer(s) of the Picatrix chose Neoplatonism. Mythology is just another way of doing the same thing, but not the only way and at times not even the best way.

There's nothing wrong with liking mythology, but I don't think that it's the bread and butter of astrology. There are tons of other analogies and metaphors that one might find useful for different purposes. If you're aim is more one of introspection then mythology is probably going to be great, hence why it's so popular in psychological astrology. If your aim however is prediction and the analysis of concrete events (past, present, or future) then mythology might only obscure things when more concrete language is necessary.
 
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Senecar

Well-known member
I take your point that you could read a horoscope in a completely workmanlike manner.

Without having to reduce Astrological predictions to workmanlike manner job, you must first understand that mythology doesn't deal with human world. Astrology does. There has always been clear distinction between the world of Gods and World of humans.

You cannot predict the Gods life and their fortunes. Astrology is about to predict human life in human world.

Your correlations Mercury is to do with lies and deceits and Mars is for Solders, and Saturn for elderly, are just too limited way of viewing Astrology and predictions in general. You must take off the sunglass you are wearing, and stop telling the world is grey or brown, because no one will believe you.
 
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dobro

Member
Without having to reduce Astrological predictions to workmanlike manner job, you must first understand that mythology doesn't deal with human world. Astrology does. There has always been clear distinction between the world of Gods and World of humans.

You cannot predict the Gods life and their fortunes. Astrology is about to predict human life in human world.

Well, I'm more interested in description than prediction, but that's a personal preference. But as for mythology, it's a description of the forces that drive, influence or possibly absolutely determine human experience. It's a description in story form, and because people are hard-wired for stories, it's a particularly effective way to represent those energies. Yes, these energies are divine and not human, but they are absolutely part of human experience, so to say that mythology doesn't deal with the human world is less than useful, possibly flatly inaccurate. But let's go along with your idea for a moment - let's say, for the time being, that gods are gods and people are people and that mythology pertains to the former, not the latter. Let's turn now to astrology with its planets and signs and its description of forces that drive, influence or possibly absolutely determine human experience. How is the astrological description any different from the mythological one? Astrology describes forces that drive, influence or absolutely determine human personality, behaviour and experience. Both astrology and mythology are attempts to describe the same thing, both are pertinent to human experience.

The distinction between the world of gods and the world of humans does not invalidate the vital connection between those worlds, nor does it invalidate mythology as an attempt (a particularly useful one in my view, but your opinion may differ) to provide humanity with a description of the divine the better to relate to it. As does astrology. As does depth psychology. They're all talking about the same thing, in different ways.
 

Senecar

Well-known member
Let's not confuse. Psychology is not upcoming individual's deaths, jobs and inheritance or marriage or bodily illness in human world. Psychology is inside human mind. Mythology is product of imagination.

Astrological prediction is a craft itself. OK, some folks rely on mythology or their psyche in predicting future. So do the Tarot readers, and some new age magicians. It is not unique to Astrological predictions or essential to it. You can't say that they truly belong to the core of the traditional Astrology.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Originally Posted by Opal
Alexander Eliot wrote The Global Myths.
While he is not an astrologer,
reading on the Global myths you can see an obvious correlation between myth
and the astrological interpretation of entities.
While the traditionalists say there is no correlation, they did not get there information
from past word of mouth or writings, I am inclined to disagree.
The coincidences are too many for it to be chance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal When an entity is refound, or renamed, we go to the name of it, and
if it is found in past writings, that is where we start
to draw our knowledge from.

[Deleted reference

to Uranus
because this is a traditional thread.
Do not post ANYTHING on the traditional astrologer board
without reading
AND FOLLOWING traditional forum rules! - Moderator]
When looking at the fixed stars
the myth is used to explain the affects it gifts to astrological meaning.
They seem to work together.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@JupiterAsc

Do traditionalist astrologers
only use ancient history books
written by astrologers?
If a traditionalist is limited to only books written by astrologers it must be very hard to read history.
Thanks for pointing out what Osamenor wrote.
I would not have missed it if even without your reiteration.
Opal
Fact is
historians use natal charts from THE ANTHOLOGY by Vettius Valens
as a reliable method
of determining numerous dates of events
that until the work was translated
those historians were uncertain of

FURTHERMORE

traditional astrology is completely independent of modernist astrology

in contrast
modernist astrology is entirely dependent on the solid foundation of traditional astrology

for example
the modernist SOLAR RETURN
is simply
the ancient traditional SOLAR REVOLUTION :smile:
 

dobro

Member
Let's not confuse. Psychology is not upcoming individual's deaths, jobs and inheritance or marriage or bodily illness in human world. Psychology is inside human mind. Mythology is product of imagination.

Well, you and I are on very different pages. For example, you see no connection between psychology and future events, but for me there is an intimate connection between psychology (the configuration of one's conscious and unconscious mind) and what unfolds in one's life in terms of health, work, relationship and so on. Is traditional astrology merely prognostication? If so, then it's not very useful, because it panders to a rather shallow dimension of the human mind.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Well, you and I are on very different pages. For example, you see no connection between psychology and future events, but for me there is an intimate connection between psychology (the configuration of one's conscious and unconscious mind) and what unfolds in one's life in terms of health, work, relationship and so on. Is traditional astrology merely prognostication? If so, then it's not very useful, because it panders to a rather shallow dimension of the human mind.
"...merely prognostication..." Siriusly dismissive of core astrological methodology :smile:
i.e.
MUNDANE ASTROLOGICAL PROGNOSTICATION

for solely psychological assessment, visit a psychologist
 

Senecar

Well-known member
Well, you and I are on very different pages. For example, you see no connection between psychology and future events, but for me there is an intimate connection between psychology (the configuration of one's conscious and unconscious mind) and what unfolds in one's life in terms of health, work, relationship and so on. Is traditional astrology merely prognostication? If so, then it's not very useful, because it panders to a rather shallow dimension of the human mind.

That sounds like description of motivational mentoring, rather than anything to do with traditional astrological prediction. :)
 
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