Morality of Predicting Death?

tsmall

Premium Member
I stated earlier on this thread the the real question of death prediction needs to be...why? Why would any astrologer attempt it? Why is the client asking for it? And would you be harming or helping by answering?

Let's play pretend. Pretend that you have a really great friend, whose mother has been diagnosed with ALS. There is absolutely no cure for this disease..it is 100% terminal. Let's further pretend that your friend, who knows that you are newly studying astrology, asks you point blank...when? Because she is a young mother with a career and yet is the primary care taker for her mom...and struggling with it. Do I give up my career to care for my Mom? Do I neglect my daughter's needs to meet hers? Do I drop out of my advanced college classes? Because even though ALS is 100% terminal, no one in the medical field can predict how long it will take. There is estate planning to consider, and then there is all the rest. Once it's over, what will I do? How do I make sure to plan for the future (that Prescience is Useful) while dealing with the now?

Are you familiar with ALS? It robs the body of the ability to function by attacking all the muscles, yet keeps the brain in tact. You loose the ability to move, to go to the bathroom, to speak...to swallow...and the entire time your brain works as it always did.

I didn't know as a beginner that we aren't supposed to look for death in the chart...and I was further impeded because we had only the daughter's chart and not her mother's. I found the date within 3 weeks. Not a great prediction by any means, because it wasn't accurate. What did it do though?

It kept my friend engaged in her life outside of her mom's disease. It created a sense of urgency (because usually from diagnosis to death ALS takes at minimum 5 years, and in this instance it was one year.) And most of all, it brought comfort.

Would I do it again, knowing now what I didn't know then? Probably not unless the circumstances were the same...as in knowing would actually help for legacy planning, and that there was no hope with an illness that has no miracle answers. There are so many diseases that we are able to either find a cure for or at least prolong life with...this is not one of them.

It all comes down to just this. Why is the client asking? How sure are you of the answer? If there is anything sketchy about either of those, then keep the information to yourself. It's like the medical creed with Hippocrates...except back in those days, well, I'd believe this applied to astrologers as well, since they were intertwined.

"I swear by Apollo the physician, and Asclepius, and Hygieia and Panacea and all the gods and goddesses as my witnesses, that, according to my ability and judgement, I will keep this Oath and this contract:

To hold him who taught me this art equally dear to me as my parents, to be a partner in life with him, and to fulfill his needs when required; to look upon his offspring as equals to my own siblings, and to teach them this art, if they shall wish to learn it, without fee or contract; and that by the set rules, lectures, and every other mode of instruction, I will impart a knowledge of the art to my own sons, and those of my teachers, and to students bound by this contract and having sworn this Oath to the law of medicine, but to no others.

I will use those dietary regimens which will benefit my patients according to my greatest ability and judgement, and I will do no harm or injustice to them.

I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.

In purity and according to divine law will I carry out my life and my art.

I will not use the knife, even upon those suffering from stones, but I will leave this to those who are trained in this craft.

Into whatever homes I go, I will enter them for the benefit of the sick, avoiding any voluntary act of impropriety or corruption, including the seduction of women or men, whether they are free men or slaves.

Whatever I see or hear in the lives of my patients, whether in connection with my professional practice or not, which ought not to be spoken of outside, I will keep secret, as considering all such things to be private.

So long as I maintain this Oath faithfully and without corruption, may it be granted to me to partake of life fully and the practice of my art, gaining the respect of all men for all time. However, should I transgress this Oath and violate it, may the opposite be my fate."
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Hi,

Being a human being comes with certain limitations. If it didn't, we would not be discussing this here, today, as, most of us, do not want to die, and we would have mastered that bit by now, too. Fact is we cannot. In my books, there is no electional caesarian birth, or mercy killng, etc. It is all so ordained by Him, and there aforementioned just become reasons and causes for the ultimate act.

The message for me is very clear: stay out of it! It is only His prerogative, and His alone.

If a disease is terminal and this kind of a predictional answer (regardless possible or not, accurate or not) may help in legacy planning, well, if I know unfortunately the disease is terminal (and a medically potential timespan left), I don't need an astro prediction to do the legacy stuff.

Human beings get too inquisitive, daring and disrespectful. We should know when and where to stop. Not everything is our business.

:)AQ7
 

Alice McDermott

Well-known member
In the spirit of an open, and reasoned debate, I revisited your website article on death prediction just now.
http://aliceportman.com/determining-death-from-a-horoscope/

It raises some questions in my mind. If death can be predicted from "a combination of some of the following factors," and there are many factors (!) in your list with possibly hundreds of possible combinations in permutations, then I am not sure how the typical amateur astrologer could confidently select just the right factors the manner and time of death.

Hi Waybread

There are a number of factors involved in a death, with the signature being repeated again and again in a variety of ways. This signature usually involves at least one factor from each of the segments I mentioned.

I really don't think most amateur astrologers could put these factors together very well but experienced amateurs such as yourself could probably do so.

I actually wrote this information to point out to many inexperienced astrologers that a number of factors needed to be considered in assessing possible death, not just a transit or progression through the 8th house which doesn't even make an exact aspect to anything in the chart ... as so many seem to have done on forums.

I also designed it to enable more advanced astrologers to go through each signature and each segment step by step to see if they applied at the deaths of people the knew.

And.. as I go on to say, one can have all these factors active in the natal chart and just have an operation where part of the body is removed, so one needs to check the charts of family members and loved ones as well.


Some of the factors you cite involve getting the house cusps right. Assuming we have a spot-on accurate birth time, do we use Placidus, Koch, equal house, or Regiomontanus?

This is exactly why I have mentioned time and time and time again that people are likely to respond more strongly to one or two specific house systems and it worth while actually doing some work to see which is the strongest for an individual. For example, Prince Charles seems to respond very strongly to Koch, whereas Princess Diana seems to have had her major resonance to Regiomontanus.

The reason why I go to all this bother is that the age harmonic for the correct house cusp is almost always activated for the relevant event. This can be a great aid in forecasting within a day or two.

Advanced astrology isn't for the lazy minded, it takes considerable work, application and insight to do well. Fortunately we now have computers to do the detailed calculations that were impossible for our predecessors, but areas like Age harmonics for house cusps still have to be calculated with the aid of a calculator and there are few people willing to go to that level of detail.

If we use a quadrant house system, does it matter whether the person had such a high-latitude birth that the house cusps are seriously skewed? (I. e., for people born in Scotland, Scandinavia, parts of the former USSR, Alaska, &c.)

To date I have found that people born in high latitudes still seem to have a strong resonance to house cusps.

In using house rulers, do we use the traditional ruler, modern ruler or both? Mightn't they give different signals?

I did all my research using modern rulers and haven't done much follow up with traditional rulers, so I can't really comment as yet.

What does it mean for the ascendant to "be activated"? Transit? By a planet or do major asteroids, BML, &tc. count. By conjunction or major aspect? Minor aspect? If by progression: secondary, tertiary, solar arc, &c?

Death is the most major physical event after birth, so naturally the Ascendant and/or its ruler will have very powerful triggers when this occurs. Usually there is a major progression or direction further triggered by a transit or lunation. Conjunction, opposition or square is the usual activation, but all 8th harmonic activation's should be considered.

I wonder, too, whether people normally have all kinds of moments in their lives that meet your criteria, yet they don't die at those times.

This is why I suggest that astrologers also check out the charts of family members. If no relevant heavy activation shows in their charts, then the event described will not be death.

however, I have yet to see all the factors I have mentioned coming together in a natal chart without at least an operation that removes part of the body (which then dies).

Quincunxes by transit are fairly common. So are planets toodling along through the fourth and 8th houses.

Exactly! But a quincunx activating at least one of the factors I have mentioned, with the other factors also in play, is not common and can be a major trigger.

And planets toodling through the 4th and 8th house are very common and this is exactly why I explained that these need to be in exact aspect with relevant factors and all the other criteria met before one can even consider the possibility of death.

Then if we take the hypothetical example of 200 people dying simultaneously in a plane crash, we may be able to mix-and-match your various potential criteria. If we assume they might be different for each victim, it still doesn't give us much to go on for predicting the death of someone in the future.

I am not suggesting that you couldn't do a decent death prediction because I have no reason to doubt your veracity.

I wouldn't give anyone a death prediction based on your article, however, because I wouldn't trust my ability to forecast into the future based on your large number of potential criteria.

I am not the sort of person who considers hypothetical examples. I am a practical astrologer who only works with real life examples, so we will leave alone this part of your question.

As for 'death predictions': I am really, really against these, both for the reason you gave - a person might not be skilled enough to do them accurately and for the affect they might have on the native and/or loved ones. I have only done so once in my life to an old friend who asked me and whom had the spiritual understanding to use this information well. I have refused to do so every other time I have been asked ... and I have been asked a number of times.

If you check out the other article I have presented in that section of my website, the assessments of marriage are just as complicated - and should be because marriage doesn't occur very often in the lives of most of us - but no one has complained about this section and several people have written to me to thank me for posting it.

I am really happy to answer any questions you or other astrologers might have about my criteria, I am even happy if someone proves me wrong. What I want to present is that death is the final experience of physical life on earth, so the signatures of this experience are almost always extensive and profound.

Alice
 
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Alice McDermott

Well-known member
Hi,


Human beings get too inquisitive, daring and disrespectful. We should know when and where to stop. Not everything is our business.

:)AQ7

Everything to do with our own lives and the lives of those we love is our business, including birth, marriage and death.

We have been given the curiosity, intelligence and tools to explore all these areas so I think we would be ungrateful and downright foolish not to.

As to God being solely a 'Him" this has only been the case over the past two thousand years or so in the Jewish/Christian/Islamic cultures. I doubt the Universal Life energy has any particular sexual orientation.

Alice
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Hi,
Everything to do with our own lives and the lives of those we love is our business, including birth, marriage and death.

We have been given the curiosity, intelligence and tools to explore all these areas so I think we would be ungrateful and downright foolish not to...
Good that we all have a different way of looking at things.

..As to God being solely a 'Him" this has only been the case over the past two thousand years or so in the Jewish/Christian/Islamic cultures. I doubt the Universal Life energy has any particular sexual orientation.
It is not about dear God being Him, Her, or even It; it is about our human limitation that we look at it that way, and are even discussing this.

:)AQ7
 

Marinka

Well-known member
Very interesting diversion to this thread - thank you to the original poster.

As I think more on this I find that an analogy might be useful and what I thought of was: someone going in to see a doctor for a cough saying that he thought it was bronchitis but, wanted to check. The doctor does all the tests which confirm bronchitis. But, the x-ray shows an abnormality .. maybe a cancer. What should the doctor do? The natural progression is to take more tests and identify what it is and put together a treatment plan along with a prognosis. What is the likelihood that the doctor would do nothing?

A professional astrology seeing a possible death in a chart should behave like another professional --- a doctor. More tests should be done (charts), treatment plan (checking aspects along the way), and most importantly, with the prognosis, the astrologer should identify what is being seen in the chart to signal a death and how many things are being seen and what this means from conventional astrological wisdom.

A conversation could be follow as:

Astrologer: Before we conclude, I'd like to mention that I'm seeing a configuration in your chart that could signal some issues (with your health). The configuration is still quite far away but, maybe we should examine this more closely. It's probably nothing (...) as there are usually many markers when life events take place and in this case out of a possible 10, I'm seeing only one.

Client: What do you mean life event? Is this something I need to be worried about? What do you see?

Astrologer: Life events are natural events that take place like marriage, divorce, buying houses, selling houses, births, deaths, sicknesses. As to being worried, think of it like going to the doctor for tests, once the tests come back we'll talk about this more. In this case, I'll need to generate more charts and spend some time analyzing specific configurations. Would you like me to move ahead with that and if so, let's set up another appointment in a few months to discuss this further.

Client: A few months ... I guess .. I don't know .. Should I be worried?

Astrologer: Let's not get too far ahead. Think about what I said and get back to me.

---------------------------------------------


A brief mention ..... , a note on what needs to be done ...... , and wait for the client to call back. The decision is left in their hands as to whether or not to continue. By not saying anything, the astrologer has made the decision for the client, a decision that the client should have made. It's best to remember .. it is their lives.

A side note about the morality of the astrologer - when a chart is being looked at, any morals, beliefs, and prejudices (blank slate) of the astrologer should be left at the door - the intent should be that as a professional astrologer, the astrologer's beliefs are not what the client is paying for.

There is the argument that maybe the professional astrologer does not know all the signals for death (or for marriage, or births) and that is OK but, if a chart is showing some movement in that direction, then would it not be the responsibility of the astrologer to get all the information (STUDY) and then present to the client their opinions on the matter. The client can always get another opinion.

Death, sickness, imprisonment ... all possible events in a client's life .. how can I not talk about them if (and only if) the client decides they want to hear.









 

waybread

Well-known member
What an interesting and thoughtful batch of posts!

tsmall, the Hypocratic Oath seems so important to the practice of astrology, regardless of the type. We all know how to give a natal chart reading (and perhaps have received one) that would be just devastating to the native.

Alice, I am flattered to be called an "experienced amateur." Unfortunately my point is precisely that I don't feel up to the challenge-- and I further flatter myself to think I've learned a bunch of astrology. However, I might try working out an example of a deceased person according to your methods and see how I get on.

What concerns me more are the Sorcerer's Apprentice types (like Mickey Mouse in Disney's Fantasia with all of the brooms) who have been noted on this forum-- with no noticeable expertise-- who scare the bejeezus out of their friends. There was a thread by someone whose "friend" said his mother would die while his progressed moon was in his 8th house; and a distraught woman with suicidal leanings who wondered if she would commit suicide because an astrologer gave her this death prediction.

Maybe you have done a service in showing people exactly how complicated the process is, vs. my concern that the message, alternatively, is that, "This can be done."

I don't know whether anyone here is familiar with the tidbits of astrology's history regarding some famous cases where astrologers predicted death incorrectly. Isaac Bickterstaff was a pen-name of the satirist Jonathan Swift. Swift exposed an astrologer who published celebrity death predictions in the papers-- and was often wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Bickerstaff Astrologers in Roman times were repeatedly banned and/or forbidden to predict the death of the emperor because if the potential to foment assassinations and political unrest. Jean-Baptiste Morin hoped to silence a critic of astrology by predicting his death. Unfortunately for the reputation of astrology, the critic lived another 5 years beyond the due-date.

We can imagine what would happen to the already troubled reputation of astrology amongst the wider public today if astrologers again got the reputation for public death predictions-- and the Internet is public.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Throughout the 19th century there was a craze for end of the world predictions, which seriously eroded acceptance of astrology (as other than an amusing past time) in Europe and the United States. Widely publicized predictions (historically always made by renowned, often charismatic inidvidual practitioners, rather than as pronouncements by groups or "colleges" of adpets) which fail, always bring discredit, particularly so if the field involved in making such publicized predictions is alread generally suspect (such as the field of astrology) Death predictions of famous or politically/socially prominent people, fall into this category.
When we predict (whatever it might be) its best to keep such predictions to our own, sharing with our colleagues and friends, and to our clients, and to avoid going to the general public (mainstream media)...Along these lines are the ancient "4 Rules" of adeptship: to dare, to will, to know, AND, to keep SILENT...
 
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BobZemco

Well-known member
My understanding (and it may be wrong and if so, feel free to correct me) is that ANY knowledge divined (divination) from using what they describe as supernatural means is to be rejected and that would include knowledge based from the natal chart.

With this in mind, there doesn't seem to be any safe footing for a catholic interested in astrology or like sciences.

There's nothing "supernatural" about [Traditional] Astrology....it's based purely on science and mathematics.

The fact that others have corrupted and convoluted Astrology into an abomination based on nothing -- making it appear as though it were rooted in the supernatural --- does not alter the fact that Traditional Astrology is rooted in science and mathematics.

In Tarot I use this rule:

Never do a reading for someone who hasn't requested a reading or do a question that relates to someone else who isn't there. It's only for the person who asked the question. If the person wants the question to be answered for him/herself, then it's okay. That's based on Free Will.

That's a good rule. I've mentioned that before in years past as it applies to 3rd Party Horary Questions, as well as other Horary Questions that might be inappropriate.

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Anyone with a basic understanding of Astrology knows that some Signs are Human Signs....Aquarius, Libra, Virgo, Gemini, and the last 10° of Sagittarius.

When the proper Significators of Death (yes, plural since this is Astrology....what a concept) are in Human Signs, under the right context --- because this is Astrology and not Planetology or Aspectology or your Reverend Jim Jones brand of Houseology --- and so it is Planet...as Significator... (and its condition), and the Sign it is in (and the Signs it rules) and the House it is in (and the Houses it rules) may indicate death by the hand of another, whether directly or indirectly, and even death by your own hand.

Gemini being a sign of duality or multiplicity can suggest that one may die by the hand of another or more than one person, or while with other people...who may or may not die with them.

So....then....in keeping with the practice of Astrology, uh, you know, there's 12 Houses in the Chart, and we always look at the 4th and 8th Houses for Death, and the 7th House and/or 12th when there's a potential for human involvement (as indicated by human signs).

Anyone with a basic understanding of Astrology knows that Scorpio, Pisces and Cancer are both Water Signs that may signify drowning, and that they also hold the meaning of abundance, large quantities, large numbers, fertility and other expression of en masse.

Earth Signs represent mass tumultuous events, obviously Virgo has an human element to it.

So, what does it say about someone who pretends to be an astrologer, but doesn't even understand the most basic meaning of the Signs, doesn't understand the symbolism of the Planets and doesn't understand the basic meanings of the Houses?

It begs the question why they'd even post on a thread like this.

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Did the planets somehow shift in the past century to predict that people today would, on average, be living longer, compared with the 17th century?

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As Olivia pointed out:

"He [ibn Ezra] also explains that a personal chart falls under quite a hierarchy of other considerations."

That's been doctrine for at least 7,000 years (if not longer) so it isn't like someone just made it up yesterday.






 
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waybread

Well-known member
(Deleted by Moderator)


I am familiar with the argument that in looking at a mass death event like a tsunami, you have to look at "other considerations." National charts are sometimes given as an example. Trouble is, for many countries there is no clear-cut single chart to use. Also, some natural disasters hit several countries-- or do not hit vast parts of a single country.

Bob, it's nice to see someone so passionate about astrology.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Deleted posting by Moderator

In India today as well as in Greece in ancient times, predicting the time of death is not/was not considered an immoral act and in fact was built into cultural norms and values.

In India today, those ancient ultural norms and values in relation to the practice of astrology have remained as is evidenced by the fact that in India today, a High Court has ruled that astrology is defined as a Science - in India, astrologers who can accurately predict death, as well as other life-altering events, are much sought after.

In India, astrologers are not attacked/vilified for their ability to predict a time of death, but appreciated for doing so.

JMO a moral debate, i.e. whether an action is either 'right' or 'wrong' is based on societal standards of 'right' or 'wrong'.


Ancient astrologers, as well as traditional astrologers in past centuries, freely used ancient techniques that predicted death as a matter of course and were free from the possibility of being accused of immorality because it was culturally normal for them to predict death.

Those same techniques from ancient and traditional astrology are in use today – but not by all astrologers.

In fact some astrologers are unaware of how to apply ancient techniques of predicting death due to never having learned how to do that - possibly due to being content with their preferred form of delineation. And that is personal choice. No astrologer is forced to use any technique to predict death if that astrologer does not want to do so. Likewise no astrologer is forced to NOT use any technique to predict death for a client who has requested them to do so. It's simply a matter of individual judgement.


However, there are astrologers who are interested in these ancient techniques and who do use techniques to predict death AND because in many cities cultural norms and values have shifted over the centuries, it is inevitable that there are differences of opinion on this matter.

JMO these differences of opinion are highlighted in particular because today the internet is available in a multitude of cities all over the world and this forum is an example of an internet forum on which people from different cultural norms and values are exchanging opinions. So on this forum it is more than likely there shall be many differences of opinion, simply due to the many different cultural norms and values of the members.

JMO then, the morality or immorality of predicting death is a matter of opinion based on different cultural norms and values therefore – given the multiplicity of norms and values of the various contributors to this interesting topic, it is not surprising that we are having a lively discussion on this thread... particularly since, as well - predicting death is a traditional form of astrology and not all contributors to this thread are traditional astrologers.

JMO it's up to the individual astrological practitioner to form an individual decision regarding the morality or immorality of predicting death and whether or not they in particular would do so :smile:

btw sourced from online free dictionary:

definition of the word 'morality'

Noun


Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.

Behavior as it is affected by the observation of these principles.


Synonyms
moral - morals - ethics - virtue
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Jupiter Ascendant, you raise an interesting point about death prediction being an accepted part of Indian astrology.

Intending no disrespect to Indian people, astrologers, or judges, I simply disagree with the practice of forecasting people's death.

Each of us can look at a culture outside of our own, and identify practices that we find disturbing or morally unacceptable. As a dual American-Canadian citizen living in Canada, I am sometimes subjected to extreme anti-Americanism. Without justifying the excesses of the US government, corporations, or popular culture, I accept that other nationals have freedom of speech to criticize my country in its various manifestations. In this same spirit, it is acceptable for me to criticize practices of other countries.

We are always going to be products of our own cultures. There is no way around the problem that sometimes people of different cultures have radically different views of morality. India itself has outlawed practices that were once considered acceptable and normal, such as suttee, child marriage, and forcing daughters into prostitution. Currently India is changing to address problems of violence towards women and the plight of ostracized widows. Today many Indians no longer believe in astrology, Hindu mythology, and arranged marriages based upon horoscopes.

If Indians themselves are changing their beliefs and sometimes criticizing their own traditions, I see no problem in my arguing against death forecasts.

It would be interesting to learn how often the Indian death predictions are correct, and what is the emotional and practical impact on Indian citizens who receive an incorrect death prediction.

While the Indian courts upheld the discipline of astrology as a science, they did not condone astrologers who make false predictions.

http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20121231111941AAQsikM

JA you are right about one thing. We cannot force astrologers to be wise and knowledgeable, or to use common sense or good judgment for the benefit of astrology its reputation.
 
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Waybread stated:

Clinton, I am happy to discuss the Bible with you, but it would seem like a real hijack of this thread. I am not sure what the Magi of the NT (today, usually understood as Zoroastrian Persians) have to do with death prediction-- the topic of this thread.

If you believe in the Bible, you can get into all kinds of difficulties with this one, as it was a Hellenistic, not Hebrew belief (so far as I know) that the Zoroastrians were astrologers. However, the Greeks viewed them with considerable suspicion, and it from them we get the double meaning of magus/magician: someone versed in occult practices-- which may or may not be beneficent.

You have been citing English translations of the original Greek. I could point to widely used translations that don't say "astrologers." The Greek term is "Magoi"; Magi in Latin. This is where we need to look.

Waybread, unfortunately I'm not well versed in Chaldean as the astrologer Patriarchal grandfather Abraham who is the Ancestor of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. Nor do have I studied Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, etc., thus I have to depend upon the various students who passed down astrological data within the Bible, interpreters. Of which in early Europe most of Europe was so uneducated, even if most colleges were of the early Church, the priests within the early Church many times put astrological references within the word as the priests were actual astrologers themselves.

You well know or should if two individuals having fixed signs on the angles and a lot of fixity within their respective maps, like if William F. Lilly were in incarnation, a taurean:sun::taurus: with possibly an Aquarius:aquarius: rising(according to Deborah Houlding, we do not truly know his chart) that John Frawley also a Sol:sun::taurus: and Chronor:saturn::scorpio: as Lilly definitely had, those two would definitely argue over some issues within astrology even if they agreed with much of the other's methods; just who they are or were in Lilly's case.

No doubt someone constructed a horoscope for King David and sincerely believed it to be correct. The notion that we could know the birth date of a tribal leader who lived roughly 3000 to 2800 years ago is not believeable, however. There is a big debate amongst biblical archaeologists currently as to when David might have lived, because the biblical accounts and what is on the ground (or excavated under the ground) do not concur. The Biblical Archaeologist magazine carries some of this debate.

Waybread, I'm ignorant of many things, confused in others, seeking the truth in both 9th house pursuits as Lilly says astrology and religion is of the 9th, but evidently you aren't aware that Solomon, the son of Bathsheba(the adulterous wife and widow of Uriah) wrote at least one book on astrology. Do you think he could have recorded his father's horoscope and that it has been passed down through the centurys?

Waybread, my late wife when I met her told me the time and date of when we met, female's generally remember things like that more than most men unless the husbands are astrologers. I did the event horoscope and noted a trial was in the map from the beginning so I protected myself financially. That was over 20 years ago, but I hid that horoscope from myself, as my attitude was at the time 'I don't want astrology to rule my life I want God to'. Well within that event horoscope it showed her death, the trial exactly, and I even told homocide detectives the date they had of her death was wrong later as that devilish Mars:mars: was by transit conjuncting the lord of the house of death of the event chart when the murder occured.

And NO I'm not wishing to Hi-jack the thread either, and my point is if an astro layman comes to me with an exact event time of some venture like when I met my late wife, do I in ethics tell them if I see a death or whatever in the event chart's horoscope?

For after that experience, when I meet a friend, business partner, whatever, I write down the time and encourage all my layman of astrology to do the same, and do the event horoscope, for it's like the Piscean Master pointed out 'whatever is bound on earth is bound in heaven'!

I mean ethicly speaking as Robert Hand states in his youtube do we have to weigh out what we do with morality like sharing our insights?:innocent::rightful::innocent::rightful:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yWrU4zn6ic


Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Matthew 2:1 Expanded Bible
[ Wise Men Come to Visit Jesus ] ·When [After] Jesus was born in the town of Bethlehem in Judea during the time when Herod was king, some ·wise men [astrologers; magi; C a class of wise men and priests who practiced astrology] from the east came to Jerusalem.

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-reader/content?oid=22904
 
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aquarius7000

Well-known member
Hi,

The case in point is that if we advocate that *trying* to predict something so ultimate, on the human plane, is ethical, we will find a thousand reasons to support what we believe in; vice versa, of course, too. I'll make it clear that I belong to the latter school of thought.

The truth is also that death is something the big majority fears, and fears a lot, no matter what we may think and brag. When we fear something, we want to make sure that the thing feared is at bay/ at some distance from us. And, there can never be enough time left- that is the thought we go by.
Some others approach that topic/may want to know out of sheer curiosity, even boredom, and fear may not really be a factor there, as the person might be young and time may seem a given. In another case, fear may not be a factor, even if one is middle-aged or more, as life simply seems satisfying or at least there is a fulfilling/healthy routine/ a sense of fulfillment may prevail. In both such cases, no matter how strong/happy-- thus immunity to fear may be high, the person might be; nonetheless, imagine being confronted by somebody's *possibly* accurate prediction that their time is near. It would change that receiving-party's life, regardless of whether they were expecting to hear that prediction or not, completely regardless of whether they were prepared for it, or not (and you can in the v least of situations be actually prepared for it, as there is always someone/some responsibility 'reason'(able) enough/hope enough to hold you back.

Why will such a prediction (regardless of whether it turns out accurate or not, even more regardless of whether the possible 'accuracy' may be skill-based or chance-based ultimately) change the prediction-receiver's life? Because words have that power in them. Something unsaid always has a certain optimistic hope attached to it.

Something once said, though, takes a certain form, even if only in one's mind. It starts interfering with most of your day's doings. Things/actions/little events that may have an hour ago seemed the most normal/natural, could now be associated with what the receiver has received in the form of a prediction.

Imagine now, if the prediction is off, how ethical is it then to have taken away a lot of *life* from that person's lifetime. (Let this be said in brackets-- just so the focus remains bigger on the off-prediction and its highly-possible consequences and influence on the receiver, that a lot of *life* still gets taken from the whatever life-span remains, even if the prediction made chances to be accurate). No matter how skilled I might be as an astrologer, until yet, no amount of astrological + ethical reasoning, even both combined, can prove it actually ethical enough for me to chance such a prediction. And, for me, this whole issue has nothing to with whether Astrology (regardless trad or un-trad) can actually help accurately predict 'that' or not. It has to do with whether I want to actually 'meddle' with *that issue*, and, moreover, actually take away *life* (look at it in a deeper sense) away from the daily life of a person. My answer, it is too big a risk, even bigger the responsibility towards another person, and nothing can be worth and ethical enough for me as one human being towards another another to say such a possible (accurate or inaccurate) prediction out. If a person did come to me for that, especially out of 'urgency', I would much rather talk and try to psychologically help that person as much as I can, but not try to give them a possible 'deadline'. I hope I don't cross that line.

It is a completely different matter when a prediction turns out true or fails to do so, when that prediction is concerning someone getting a job or even getting pregnant, or even a medical treatment turning out successful. Why? Because there is still a beyond-that prediction and hope. It is not about something so ultimate. And, no, we can hardly argue away the ultimation attached to it, and suggest to only look at death as a transition, or stepping out of one door and through another. No, on a human level, the reality of death is very ultimate. If it weren't the question of ethics would not be related to it in such a big way, for one.

This discussion for me has the least to do with Astrology-practice in relations to such matters in India, or Greece, or in Europe, etc; it has to do with common sense, ethics, and considering of human nature, and then considering the effect and repercussions of such a prediction.

God bless
:)AQ7
 
Aquarius7000 stated:

Imagine now, if the prediction is off, how ethical is it then to have taken away a lot of *life* from that person's lifetime. (Let this be said in brackets-- just so the focus remains bigger on the off-prediction and its highly-possible consequences and influence on the receiver, that a lot of *life* still gets taken from the whatever life-span remains, even if the prediction made chances to be accurate). No matter how skilled I might be as an astrologer, until yet, no amount of astrological + ethical reasoning, even both combined, can prove it actually ethical enough for me to chance such a prediction. And, for me, this whole issue has nothing to with whether Astrology (regardless trad or un-trad) can actually help accurately predict 'that' or not. It has to do with whether I want to actually 'meddle' with *that issue*, and, moreover, actually take away *life* (look at it in a deeper sense) away from the daily life of a person. My answer, it is too big a risk, even bigger the responsibility towards another person, and nothing can be worth and ethical enough for me as one human being towards another another to say such a possible (accurate or inaccurate) prediction out. If a person did come to me for that, especially out of 'urgency', I would much rather talk and try to psychologically help that person as much as I can, but not try to give them a possible 'deadline'. I hope I don't cross that line.

That is why Lilly says '...be reliable for both the art and your own reputation...'

As Heindel stated in his Junior Grade Astrology Course Letters to Students of Spiritual Astrology, Letter Number Nine:

http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/magen305.htm

Therefore Moses stood on no holier ground than the astrologer who holds in his hand a horoscope; and I feel that I cannot too often reiterate that there is a very grave responsibility connected with this wonderful privilege of the astrologer, and that it behooves him to live a holy life so that he may be worthy to stand in the sublime presence of the Human Spirit as it is revealed in the natal figure.

I wonder if Max Heindel knew that Moses, raised by Egypt's royalty was an astrologer?

So Yes, Aquarius7000, our verdict is of great consequence!:rightful:


Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Ecclesiastes 3:1-4 "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: 2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; 3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;" (King James Version)

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-...tent?oid=22904
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Clinton, if you take a literal translation of the Bible (i.e., the Bible stories literally happened as stated) and accept that the Magi were astrologers, that's fine. I think the back-story is more complex and metaphorical. Each of us would find people who agree and disagree with us. Each of us could cite English translations for or against our perspective. Shall we leave it at that on a thread about death prediction?

With respect to King David, no doubt a sincere astrologer constructed a chart based upon matching up some typical delineations of planets, signs, and houses with biblical descriptions of David's life and character. This doesn't make it accurate.

The idea that a chart might have been constructed 3000 to 2800 years ago and passed down through the ages just doesn't hold up, however. The astrology of that time was based upon omen delineations. It wasn't horoscopic astrology, which wasn't developed in Babylon till around 600 BC. And then, what we have are some archaeological finds of nativities wih lists of planets in signs. We have no idea how the Babylonians actually interpreted them. The Babylonians didn't use houses: that awaited the development of Hellenistic astrology.

Solomon was described as a wise man with vast knowledge. But there was no horoscopic astrology in Israel in his day, just omen-reading. There were no clocks back then, either, so determining somebody's 9th house at that time has to be seen as an interesting exercise in speculation, but not truth.

What I am missing in your posts is an explanation of how these biblical references make an argument for or against death prediction in astrology. I am very sorry to learn that your wife was murdered. That must have been a horrific experience for you. If you believe you did an accurate death prediction for her previously you must be a more skilled astrologer than most.

More to the point, I can look at a death chart or progressions and transits for the time of death, and pretty much make it show me an explanation for the death. Finding what one already believes to be true is called "confirmation bias." The more serious issue is predicting someone else's death in the future, because then I can't use the benefit of hindsight. whether one can do this and whether one should do this.

I don't think the purpose of astrology is to remove uncertainty from our lives. Imagine an astrology that predicted your entire life ahead of you, from the day you were born till the day you died. Would you have any choices in life? If not, what kind of human being would that make you? A pre-programmed robot simply manifesting the program? This gets us into all kinds of causality issues. And religious ones. If you are a Christian you know that Christianity stresses moral choice.

Isn't coping with uncertainty one of life's great lessons? It is character-building to learn how to deal with uncertainty and risk-taking. Do we truly want to give away our autonomy to a Mama or Papa Astrologer who will remove all major decision-making from us, if we ask them to predict every major outcome in our lives?

I am now in my 60s, and I can look back at issues that caused me huge anxiety in the past. My life turned out OK even with a lot of uncertainty and poor choices; and in fact, it is hard to say that if I knew the truth in advance I would have done anything differently.

My parents both died by the time I was 35, for example. Our relationships were strained, yet looking back, there is no way advanced knowledge of their death dates could have altered anything. I tried repeatedly to improve our relationship, but they were both set in their ways and I felt little genuine reciprocity from them.

Shouldn't we always live life as though we and our loved ones might be taken from us at any moment? Shouldn't we have our financial affairs in order as a matter of routine?

There are major issues beyond what I've raised in previous posts, though others have. What about a "self-fulfilling prophecy"? Patients who believe they are doomed have a much poorer end-of-life experience than patients who have some hope. Do you want to be the one to tell a suicidal teenage girl that she will take her own life in 3 months time? If for some reason I wanted a death prediction, would I want one from someone with the inter-personal communication skills of Bob Zemco here? How many astrologers have any education or even compassionate wisdom in end-of-life and grief counseling?

Aquarius7000, I strongly agree with you. I've scoured the Internet in the past for astrological associations' codes of ethics. While very few address death prediction, most of them prohibit their members from unduly frightening the client.

Astrologers are fallible human begins. Astrology is in enough public disrepute as it is. Death-clock astrology is one kind we simply don't need.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Just one more thing-- we've now had some methods put forward by Alice, Bob, and Dr. Farr*; plus claims by other posters here that they can forecast death. (See also Richard Houck's book, or traditional sources of the past 2000 years.)

It would be interesting to set up some anonymous charts and ask the experts to determine whether these people are now alive or dead, and if dead, their time and manner of death.

[*Apparently in progress, and it appears that Dr. Farr does not believe in forecasting death.]
 
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