I don't believe in a visible God of either the OT or the NT. What people saw were the angel of the Lord, visions or apostles carrying the divine name. They are representative of God, but they are not literally God, and should not be religiously worshipped. Ontologically different, functionally the same yes. God is one, not two, three or ten.
Human existence: the gender of God
- Thread starter CapAquaPis
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I don't believe in a visible God of either the OT or the NT. What people saw were the angel of the Lord, visions or apostles carrying the divine name. They are representative of God, but they are not literally God, and should not be religiously worshipped. Ontologically different, functionally the same yes. God is one, not two, three or ten.
I believe the Bible teaches that different beings can be functionally one person through the principle of agency (the shaliah is regarded as the sender himself - John 13:20), rather than one being manifesting in different persons/hypostases/modes/parts/emanations etc. (sounds Greek and Gnostic to me). I wonder if waybread would agree with me, or does she believe in two powers in heaven.
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david starling
Well-known member
What about the wording of the Commandment, "no other gods before Him"? Apparently, the Israelites took this to mean that they could partake in rituals (including temple prostitutes) of other nations, as long as they placed the worship of their God above all others. The prophets emphatically disagreed!
But, it does sound like they were willing to believe in lesser gods, meaning they weren't strictly monotheistic. There was competition to prove whose god was mightier, but the other, lesser gods weren't dismissed as mere demons. That came much later, after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.
waybread
Well-known member
Of course, the Hebrew word Elohim is plural.
If idolatry meant having equal gods, then no nation would be idolatrous, as they all plainly admitted hierarchies of greater and lesser deities.
''Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me.'' - Isaiah 46:9
There is no greater and lesser deity, as there can't be no comparison with the Lord God.
''Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me.'' - Isaiah 46:9
There is no greater and lesser deity, as there can't be no comparison with the Lord God.
Dagon is Elohim. He is a false god and a single person.
You know better that Elohim is constantly used as a singular noun, and its plurality is probably related to majesty rather than multiplicity. Otherwise it should always be translated as ''gods'' regardless of the context.
waybread
Well-known member
I believe the Bible teaches that different beings can be functionally one person through the principle of agency (the shaliah is regarded as the sender himself - John 13:20), rather than one being manifesting in different persons/hypostases/modes/parts/emanations etc. (sounds Greek and Gnostic to me). I wonder if waybread would agree with me, or does she believe in two powers in heaven.
Well, I don't believe in "heaven" in the Christian sense.
Case in point: the Hebrew word for "heaven" and "sky" are the same: sh'mayim Similarly, the German word Himmel means both heaven and sky. But if there is a Christian heaven, is it actually up in the sky? The Lord's prayer can certainly be read this way.
There is a fair bit of evidence that actual on-the-ground Jewish worship in biblical times included a female consort for God, or the Assyrian Queen of Heaven. Of course, this got edited out of the texts. See Raphael Patai, The Hebrew Goddess.
I don't believe in the Christian heaven of disembodied souls either. Many Christians don't. The heavens is also always plural.
I meant ''Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports about Christianity and Gnosticism'' by Alan F. Segal. It tries to argue that the Old Testament presents evidence for binitarianism that was widespread among Jews, Christians and Gnostics.
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waybread
Well-known member
Exactly so. In the beginning, the "gods" came down to earth. The creator God speaks to them: "Let us make man in our image and after our likeness."
Elohim-- a Hebrew plural-- has merely been explained away by theologians uncomfortable with the plural concept.
As you know, the Bible borrows from older sources of Egypt, Mesopotamia, and the Levant. Elohim described the Canaanite pantheon, with El as the patriarch god. There are passages throughout the OT that attest to the belief in the actual existence of other gods. Jews, however, are told not to worship them. Then what are angels, cherubim, seraphim, and Satan (in whom you believe)?
I believe Moses wrote the Torah.
I think you missed the Messiah and the judges who are also called Elohim. People should know that beings other than God can be called god, while at the same time saying that there is only one God and no other.
I don't believe the scriptures call them gods literally, but entirely metaphorically, and I read the whole books, which are filled with references to the unitary monotheism of the Jews.
Although God in Gen. 1:26 may have spoken to angels or to his personified wisdom, or with a ''royal we'', in the very next verse Gen. 1:27 we learn that he did all by himself. Your teachers have a wise saying about this - that whenever a heretic comes to you with a verse, you should just read the next verse.
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david starling
Well-known member
But the Commandment doesn't say "thou shalt not worship other gods".
It says "thou shalt have no other gods before me".
It definitely doesn't deny the existence of other gods. That came much later.
Opal
Premium Member
Ruth, is an interesting book.
Naomi and her husband travel because of famine, taking their two sons with them to Moab. The sons marry, one to Ruth one to Orpah. Naomi's husband, and their two sons die, of undisclosed circumstances. Naomi tells her daughters in law to stay in Moab, with their families and friends. Ruth cannot leave her to be alone. She insists on going with her, to care for her in her old age. She becomes a gleaner. A gleaner is a person, that while the harvest is happening, comes along behind, and can pick up the grain that the main harvesters miss. Boaz, is impressed with her style, and work ethic. He asks his servant who she is, and why she is gleaning. Gleaning was for the poor. Then he directs his servant to make sure that there is grain for her to glean. He asks her to partake of the food that he has prepared. And she returns to Naomi with food for them both. Boaz is smitten, and although it is not okay, he decrees and marries Ruth. Although the marriage is short lived, as he dies shortly thereafter.
I have always seen it as a story of doing the best you can at whatever you do. Of taking care of the poor, and the elderly.
Also, in Ruth, there is the saying "Thy people will be my people, thy God, my God" said by Ruth to Naomi, when convincing her that she would follow her to Bethlehem.
To me it is a book about Charity.
Naomi and her husband travel because of famine, taking their two sons with them to Moab. The sons marry, one to Ruth one to Orpah. Naomi's husband, and their two sons die, of undisclosed circumstances. Naomi tells her daughters in law to stay in Moab, with their families and friends. Ruth cannot leave her to be alone. She insists on going with her, to care for her in her old age. She becomes a gleaner. A gleaner is a person, that while the harvest is happening, comes along behind, and can pick up the grain that the main harvesters miss. Boaz, is impressed with her style, and work ethic. He asks his servant who she is, and why she is gleaning. Gleaning was for the poor. Then he directs his servant to make sure that there is grain for her to glean. He asks her to partake of the food that he has prepared. And she returns to Naomi with food for them both. Boaz is smitten, and although it is not okay, he decrees and marries Ruth. Although the marriage is short lived, as he dies shortly thereafter.
I have always seen it as a story of doing the best you can at whatever you do. Of taking care of the poor, and the elderly.
Also, in Ruth, there is the saying "Thy people will be my people, thy God, my God" said by Ruth to Naomi, when convincing her that she would follow her to Bethlehem.
To me it is a book about Charity.
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Opal
Premium Member
Actually, really, really interesting link for me. Thank you!
Waybread, you asked me once where I got the information on the Venus cult, where women prostituted themselves, for they were to turn one trick before they were permitted to marry. I still haven’t found the book that it was in. But read Passiflora’s link!
Thanks again Passiflora! Cool!😘
Why would he forbid their worship as the most immoral of sins? He was way ahead of atheists.
david starling
Well-known member
Adonai refers to "the Lord our God, the Lord is One.
The Masoretes read Adoni (my lord) in Psalm 110:1, which is never used of God. Jesus is the one Lord Messiah not the one Lord God. In the NT, he is the Anointed of the Lord - Luke 2:26.
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david starling
Well-known member
"Melchizedec" seems to be involved.
He is a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. He is lord to his father David as his king and saviour who is going to give him eternal life.
