Ethics and Information in Horary Charts

A

archergirl

Well-known member
Hi All,

Arian Maverick suggested we create a thread for this topic, as it's very important for horary astrologers (actually, any astrologer) to consider the effects of their readings on the querent.

How much information is 'too much information' for a querent/client to know, and where is the line drawn?

If a querent asks a simple 'yes or no' question, which the astrologer can answer, should the astrologer leave the answer as 'yes or no' if there is much more information readily available in the chart? What if the querent hasn't asked about all the 'extra' information? Should the astrologer give it anyway?

This should be especially pertinent to questions regarding emotionally 'touchy' (and potentially ethically risky) subjects such as pregnancy and health, but also has importance in more 'mundane' topics such as relationships and finance.

In a public forum like this, there is a risk of treating people's real, personal, and often 'private' questions as open topics for discussion, with the consequence of forgetting that there is a person at the other end of the question.

Sometimes we get around this by P.M.ing the querent with a private response, but sometimes I think this comes a little too late, as the topic has already been picked apart in public.

What do you think?

Cheers,
AG:)
 
LoneStar

LoneStar

Well-known member
I'm glad you opened this thread. I was recently reading the discussion over on the horary thread started by 2Rainbows about her pregnancy, and I could not believe that possible negative outcomes of the pregancy were being discussed by forum members! I mean, COME ON: she just found out she is pregnant: she needs support, encouragement and hope that the new little life inside of her will thrive. She doesn't need someone nit-picking through a chart of the moment, sighting hypothetical problems she may or may not in reality ever actually experience. Some things, like a pregancy announcement, are just plain sacred and should be treated as such. Period. New mothers need support, not undue exposure to another crazy thing lurking in the unknown future to fear or worry about.

I think its unethical to stress a newly pregnant individual out with information she did not ask for. If she asked... "how is my pregnancy going to go?" then it would have been fine to give her the answers she was seeking. But she didn't ask. All she asked was is she pregnant? That question was answered for her and then she left the the discussion.

In my humble and sensitive opinion, it wasn't appropriate to continue the thread in the manner it was continued in, and more self-restraint should have been exercised by the members. I have no idea how the querent felt about the subsequent posts, but I would have felt violated and unduly concerned if I were her. And I do hope she doesn't have to be involved in this discussion any further, because she likely has more than enough on her mind.

I'm not here to attack or condemn anyone, but I do think some ethical matters were overlooked on that thread in favor of the astrological technicalities. I understand that this an astrology board where people come to dissect charts and entertain possible outcomes based on placements, but no matter what the chart says, the people need to come first. We are all only human, we all have feelings, and we all have to face the unknown in our lives even if we all try to cheat a bit here and get a peek at where the stars are at before we dive into our experiences. ;) A little more sensitivity should have been called for.

Astrology can be used in many different ways. Ideally, it should be used to support the querent in making wise, life-affirming decisions. If they ask for answers, give them, but try not to neglect the actual humanity involved in the situation.

Thanks,
Lonestar
 
lillyjgc

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Lonestar,
I think you are being a bit harsh here- the chart had a few conflicting elements going on and there was a need to examine it in order to give 2rainbows the correct answer.When people post a personal horary chart on a public forum they are opening up the topic for discussion.Of course 2rainbows did have the option of approaching one of us by pm if she wanted the matter kept private. The purpose of posting charts on the forum is so we can learn.I can't see why the responses that were given bothered you- it was not a straightforward chart at all.
I agree with Archer that of course we must remember that a person is involved and be respectful and tactful in that way.
This does take me to my next point- if people dont want to know,then perhaps they shouldn't ask.But as we havent heard from 2Rainbows perhaps
we can assume she is busy getting ready for her baby and if she is disconcerted by what has been said,she hasn't said so-so maybe we cant assume anything there.
Cheers Lillyjgc
 
Arian Maverick

Arian Maverick

Well-known member
Please don't let this thread turn into another argument; I should really stop recommending that members create new threads to continue discussions with the luck we've been having with this, lately :(

Let's keep this a general discussion with little or no emphasis upon 2rainbow's horary thread; if any members have an issue with this, please send a personal message to me or one of the other moderators.

Arian Maverick
 
LoneStar

LoneStar

Well-known member
I wasn't gonna fight, A.M. I still think it was tasteless to discuss miscarriage but ...lilly is also probably right about me being too harsh, also.

I've said my peace. Carry on...

How much information is 'too much information' for a querent/client to know, and where is the line drawn?

If a querent asks a simple 'yes or no' question, which the astrologer can answer, should the astrologer leave the answer as 'yes or no' if there is much more information readily available in the chart? What if the querent hasn't asked about all the 'extra' information? Should the astrologer give it anyway?
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A

archergirl

Well-known member
Well, I agree with LoneStar, which is why I broached the subject in the thread referred to; however, I also agree that if one comes on a public forum one should expect things to be made 'public'. And this IS a learning forum, so such matters are of great interest to us as students as we try to figure stuff out.

But this is beside the point; what I'd like to know is, what thoughts do you have about the information available in a horary?

To use a hypothetical example, say a querent asks, "Will my father give me some money?" and the answer is yes. However, the astrologer sees that in order for the querent to receive the money from the father, the father must die first. What then? The querent didn't ask about the death of the father, and we might judge that such information would be distressing to the querent. But it is a part of the answer.

There is always a risk, I suppose, that if the astrologer does NOT divulge the information, and the thing foreseen happens, that the querent could come back and demand to know why this information wasn't provided. Is this as ethically delicate for the astrologer as giving the information in the first place?

Cheers,
AG:)
 
lillyjgc

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Hi folks,
This question arises very often with horary charts.... If a querent wants a *yes* or *no* answer only, I give them that (to the best of my ability, anyway-if I am in doubt I go for a *second opinion*).As in the example Archer gave above, I would ask the querent if they *wanted* to know more before launching into the *fine print* of the chart.
On the forum though, were we to practise that,no learning would occur...The horary question would be asked-ie: Will my father give me money-and all that would appear below is *yes* or *no*-not much learning in that.Instead of us being a discussion forum we would then be a free chart reading site.
People can ask by pm if the matter is private..If you post up the chart and invite members to comment surely that is done with an understanding that the chart will be delved into so we can all learn from it.
I say this with a total acknowledgement that we must at all times remember we are dealing with actual people and be circumspect about what we say (in case we are wrong) and also in case we accidentally cause someone distress.
If a querent asks *Will we break up* and the answer is *yes* according to our reading of the chart I feel we have a duty to be honest- its not like we are telling people information they dont want to hear-a poster has *asked* so in the asking there is a tacit expectation that we will be objective (and compassionate) in our astrological delineations.Members have a choice as to what they ask publically.Diplomacy is an essential ingredient for a *good* astrologer in my honest opinion.
cheers, Lillyjgc
 
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A

archergirl

Well-known member
I would ask the querent if they *wanted* to know more before launching into the *fine print* of the chart.
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Yes, this is what I would do, as well. Most charts divulge a great deal; sometimes, people don't want to know that much!

In the thread that started off this particular discussion, everyone has, I feel, bent over backwards to be very careful in delineating the chart; we are all aware that the matter is delicate. However, it is as lillyjgc says: a public question on a public forum, and so fair game for analysis. And we will never know if we are right or wrong unless we lay it all out for examination.

Best,
AG:)
 
lillyjgc

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Hi- While we are discussing this very important subject it might be relevant to raise a recent example of something that happened on the forum regarding a horary chart.
A member pm'd me with a chart and a request to analyse it, so I did so, and pm'd her reply.
Later the member posted the chart on the forum and also on another forum (which was in breach of the rules of the other forum-whose *rules* list includes that the chart must NOT have been posted on another forum).
I responded to the chart on the forum.
When an event that had been *forecast* by my horary analysis occurred, the member pm'd me *accusing* me of actually intervening in personal matters and actually *causing* the event to take place.This made me aware of the fact that there is some danger in answering horary charts on the forum-if one can be so accused. I was shocked to see a statement made by the member on a different thread alluding to the fact that I had caused *undue distress* by my delineation-even when the *predicted events* actually occurred! In fact the member had gone to other forum asking for a chart to be done ABOUT me!!
I found this very disturbing.Were most of the members not appreciative of the work that goes into a horary I would have left the forum there and then, and almost did so.
In that situation I had no recourse and no way of defending myself without breaching forum etiquette by referencing the very abusive pm's I received for my trouble.
Of course this doesn't happen often-but it did happen to me and is *food for thought* in regard to doing favours for members by spending time on their charts.I'm surprised that this forum doesnt seem to have an explanation of rules or codes of behaviour like other forums do-(If we do have such a list-where is it?)..
Its a worry that the astrologer can face public accusations on here simply by answering a post in good faith.
Lillyjgc
 
A

archergirl

Well-known member
*sigh* Well, this has happened to me as well, this reading a chart in good faith and then being accused of being unhelpful by the querent, because the answer wasn't what they were looking for. I got a barrage of harassing PMs from the querent with more of the same sort of tirade (I was wrong, I was mean, my 'help' was unwelcome, I need therapy, etc.), so I finally told the person to pull their socks up and get some sort of mental/emotional help beyond a chart reading. They didn't like that, either, so complained to Radu (about ME harassing THEM, of all things), who regretfully had to involve himself until I explained the situation.

It happens. There are loose cannons on every Web forum in existence, and these sorts of sites tend to attract those who are in need of extra...[ahem] assistance anyway. Extra help, or free readings, one or t'other.:D

Best,
AG:)
 
Charm

Charm

Well-known member
I think there should be a "caveat emptor" buyer beware listed as part of all of the horary instructions. As I have personally experienced, many people who ask horary questions are in a state of distress " Will my boyfriend stay?" "Is my career ok?" "Where is my lost item?". Getting what may be perceived as a discouraging reply can further increase this anxiety.

For instance, this summer I asked if I will see the guy I was dating again. Some folks took a crack at the horary. Neptune was opposing 3 or four planets in the chart, including the planet that represented him. Turns out, he got caught in a hurricane (Neptune) and ended up reconsidering our relationship because of the trauma of the hurricane! He ended up coming back to me for a while. But some folks on the forum saw the Neptune as being that he was dishonest, liar, legal issues. So I listened to what peoples opinions were and went on with my life. I couldn't blame anyone because I asked the question.

So there should be a statement included in the screen that people post that says something to the effect of :

"By posting an horary question, you understand that you are seeking the opinions of other astrologers. Astrologyweekly does not maintain astrological credentials of its members. Astrological interpretation is also in part subjective, and is based on experience and intuition. This is a public forum and questions should not be asked if the subject matter is private."

Something of that sort. Radu or other moderators might better perfect the language.

That's my 2 cents.

P.S. I don't post horary questions unless I am ready to accept bad news about a situation. Also if the matter is truly private, I don't post at all, and rely on my faith to see me through.
 
lillyjgc

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Hi- perhaps in the horary section there could be a sticky that includes a version of what Charm has outlined above and also includes a note that it is NOT OKAY to send abusive pm's (at anytime) but also not in regard to the work someone has done *for free* out of their own generosity.
Another ethical horary issue that came to mind also happened to me recently.
I was sent a chart and background information by PM. Then the chart appeared in the Forum with *different* background information. (Then later I saw the same chart posted on another forum with again *different* background information.)
Because its not okay to reference a pm I could not disclose the info I had compared with that all the members had...This struck me as being very unfair to those who put their energy into the horary chart.(And even gave me an *unfair advantage* in the delineation, as I had other information.)
Okay-the obvious response is not to go to that thread.Not to answer the question for the members who play those games....but it takes a while to notice who is consistently offending.And again, it is not conducive to friendly relations on the forum.
The very nature of horary raises LOTS of ethical questions.
One of my clients rang to say she had been diagnosed with a serious illness-nothing was in my astro report that I had done for her.I checked and re-checked. Her doctor wanted to start her on medications with serious side effects.The horary I cast showed this would make matters worse.
In the end I told her simply this:
The chart shows your illness is transitory and will pass soon.Your options are to wait and see- or follow the doctors advice.Its a decision only you can make*
Her response? *Well the astrology's been right all the other times so I'll trust that and wait and see*.
(I called her today-she's very much better)...however you can see the ethical question arising here- what if I am wrong? What if her condition worsens because of the delay?...
I guess when a person consults astrology they are open to receiving that information which can help them make a decision, but not *make it for them*.
Cheers, Lillyjgc
 
EJ53

EJ53

Banned
Despite having no experience of horary astrology, I'd like to comment on this thread as it applies communitywide.

Since joining the community (about three weeks ago), I have noticed that those posing questions range from inexperienced amateurs wanting free readings to very experienced professionals asking about matters to stimulate learning - and it is often difficult to determine at the outset where the questioner falls within that range.

For example, would a 20 year old who sees astrology as fortune-telling and asking about a new relationship/romance be treated exactly the same as a 45 year old who sees astrology as a tool for self-learning and asking the same question. If so, that seems unethical to me - unless the questioner has first been warned that the astrological analysis might be more intrusive than expected.

Charm's "caveat emptor" is a good way to deal with that. But, I would like to it to be compulsory for all members to post an introduction before being allowed to actively participate in the community. And that intro should give details of experience/perceived purpose of astrology/etc. - so that everyone can look them up before responding to a thread/comment.
 
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Arian Maverick

Arian Maverick

Well-known member
For example, would a 20 year old who sees astrology as fortune-telling and asking about a new relationship/romance be treated exactly the same as a 45 year old who sees astrology as a tool for self-learning and asking the same question. If so, that seems unethical to me - unless the questioner has first been warned that the astrological analysis might be more intrusive than expected.
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I don't think it is fair to use a forum member's age as an indication of the seriousness with whihc he or she regards astrology; I have been a member of the forums for more than two years now and have seen members claiming to be of an older, more mature biological age posting inane questions as well as younger members who continually surprise me with their level of insight into the subtler realms and implications of astrology.

I do not quite understand what this matter has to do with forum ethics, though, unless you are possibly suggesting that it is unethical to treat certain members differently depending upon their age or astrological experience.

I agree that there are great differences in the seriousness of the subject matter, however.

Hi- perhaps in the horary section there could be a sticky that includes a version of what Charm has outlined above and also includes a note that it is NOT OKAY to send abusive pm's (at anytime) but also not in regard to the work someone has done *for free* out of their own generosity.
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This is fine, but how would you define abusive?

Perhaps we should simply indicate that the same rules that apply to the public forums apply to private messages one sends as well?

But, I would like to it to be compulsory for all members to post an introduction before being allowed to actively participate in the community. And that intro should give details of experience/perceived purpose of astrology/etc. - so that everyone can look them up before responding to a thread/comment.
Click to expand...

I will inform the other moderators of this idea, but I'm a bit hesitant to make it compulsory for any member to post such a thread about themselves for sole purpose of having others judge their level of experience or insight; this should be apparent through other posts they make on the forums, and I believe that each member should have the ability to improve his or her astrological skills unlimited by the impression they may have made with their initial introductory post.

Also, how do you suppose moderators could enforce such a policy? We receive scores of new members each week, and many of them are not even aware of the existence of the Introduction Board or else discovery it after they have contributed a few posts in other threads on the forum. Do you suppose that we delete these posts and don't allow members to post elsewhere until they write an introduction of themselves? This seems a bit harsh to me, and I am also unsure of the purpose it would serve.

Arian Maverick

P.S. Please try to bring the conversation back to the original topic--Ethics and Information in Horary Charts. A discussion of forum policy does not belong in this thread, especially since there have been other threads created for this purpose.
 
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A

archergirl

Well-known member
... have seen members claiming to be of an older, more mature biological age posting inane questions as well as younger members who continually surprise me with their level of insight into the subtler realms and implications of astrology.
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Ha, Lord yes.

I like the idea of a caveat as Charm has suggested, but how many people will read it? Not many people read the horary 'rules' before posting their questions (e.g. they have to provide their own interpretation before others pitch in), and I feel rather prissy reminding people of this constantly.

I suppose, in the wide picture, if you want a private reading you will pay an astrologer for the priviledge of privacy; and if you don't want to pay, you come to a site like this where your chart will be picked over mercilessly. As in the thread that originally started this discussion, this can lead to certain ethical dilemmas; but perhaps knowledge is power and it is better to have this stuff revealed. In some ways it's 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'; as Lillyjgc says, the ultimate choice is up to the querent, what to do with the information provided.

Cheers,
AG:)
 
EJ53

EJ53

Banned
Arian Maverick said:
I don't think it is fair to use a forum member's age as an indication of the seriousness with whihc he or she regards astrology; I have been a member of the forums for more than two years now and have seen members claiming to be of an older, more mature biological age posting inane questions as well as younger members who continually surprise me with their level of insight into the subtler realms and implications of astrology.

I do not quite understand what this matter has to do with forum ethics, though, unless you are possibly suggesting that it is unethical to treat certain members differently depending upon their age or astrological experience.

I agree that there are great differences in the seriousness of the subject matter, however.
Click to expand...

With the age, I was trying to make the point that - due to life experiences - young people often want something different from relationships than older people. There was no intention to denigrate young people in any way - so, I need to look closely at my earlier comment to see how I managed to convey that impression. (This is not the first time that this forum has taught me that "what I thought I had written is not what others have read" - but it is proving to be a hard lesson to learn.)

The forum point was that life experience often determines the depth of the question asked and it is ethical to ascertain that before responding. For example, had I asked at the age of 20 if my partner was going to leave me my concern would have been solely about the effect upon me - but, at 45, my focus would have been upon the potential effects upon my children and grandchild. (And I am not suggesting here that anyone else might be as self-obssessed as me at 20.)
 
EJ53

EJ53

Banned
Arian Maverick said:
?

I will inform the other moderators of this idea, but I'm a bit hesitant to make it compulsory for any member to post such a thread about themselves for sole purpose of having others judge their level of experience or insight; this should be apparent through other posts they make on the forums, and I believe that each member should have the ability to improve his or her astrological skills unlimited by the impression they may have made with their initial introductory post.

Also, how do you suppose moderators could enforce such a policy? We receive scores of new members each week, and many of them are not even aware of the existence of the Introduction Board or else discovery it after they have contributed a few posts in other threads on the forum. Do you suppose that we delete these posts and don't allow members to post elsewhere until they write an introduction of themselves? This seems a bit harsh to me, and I am also unsure of the purpose it would serve.
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Once again, I have failed to get my intended message across to others.

Compulsory introductions should cover life experiences/background/etc for other members to get a feel for whom/what they might encounter - astrological expertise is only one (minor) part of that. For example, I believe that "those who agree with me, teach me nothing - but those who disagree with me offer an opportunity to learn". However I used to view disagreement as an ego attack - so my response to comments in this community would not be the same then as they might be now.

Could you not enforce the policy using some kind of mechanism that restricts access until you are approved (as paysites do)? I have no website knowledge to know if it is feasible to implement my suggestion - but believe that the difficulty in doing so is not a valid reason for rejecting it. First decide if it should be done, then decide if it can/will be done.

Finally, as requested I will address forum comments to the appropriate place in future.
 
EJ53

EJ53

Banned
archergirl said:
Not many people read the horary 'rules' before posting their questions.
Cheers,
AG:)
Click to expand...

As a new member, this explains some recent problems I've had due to not reading the rules. So, will someone please tell me (and perhaps other new members) where they can be found.

This is an excellent community, full of good people - but finding my way around it is really exasperating (albeit very worthwhile).

Note : This is not a criticism - it's a genuine request for help/assistance.
 
A

archergirl

Well-known member
Hi EJ53,

I have some of the same issues with navigating this site as you. The Horary Rules are listed waay at the bottom of the Horary 'section'.

They *used to be* posted at the top of each sub-section in the horary section (if you see what I mean) but for some reason have been mysteriously shunted to the bottom, where even fewer people will read them.

Because I'm rather a stickler for such things, I think the rules should come up with flashing banners every time someone tries to post a new chart/question.:p That would save me the annoying detail of reminding people that they have to do their own work. Especially on the horary threads. Because we get hundreds of them.

So, moderators, why did the rules get moved so far down the line?

(I realize this is somewhat off topic, but still relevant since it concerns 'information'...);)

Cheers,
AG:)
 
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