Is pluto the devil?
- Thread starter divine g
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Modcleopatra
Banned
Since Pluto rules everything dark and evil, could Pluto represent the devil himself?
I was meditating on Pluto moving through the houses, and I see Pluto in 12th as serving a dark and destructive spiritual force, aka Satan or the devil.
Anyone agree?
Pluto, as far as I know and have studied, rules (from findyourfate.com):
(italics/bolding mine)
The presence and direction of Pluto's energy are never obvious until it is used. [So we can't know how Pluto manifests until the Plutonic energies are distributed, in this way, making a "claim" to it being a "Devil" or an "Angel" is always a matter of control, therefore directing the out-put.]
Pluto's influence in any sign is interpreted as generational or historical. [The Devil is a universal image, so it makes sense to link Pluto with "Devilish forces," but simply being connected to the Underworld cannot make something "The Devil."]
In your personal life, Pluto's significance is interpreted from its house position and the aspects it makes to other natal planets in your horoscope. [Which could then have a "maverick" or "topsy-turvy-like" component to it, sometimes being "good" or "bad," depending on where the Plutonic energy is exhibited and how it is exhibited.]
Pluto rules intense energy, and describes the areas in which you consciously or subconsciously seek to exercise power or control. [This control could go either way, the point is that it is energy, and how it is rendered or harnessed is what makes it most important here to consider when "qualifying" or describing Plutonic energies and behaviors.]
Pluto is also linked to your karmic responsibility.
I think this speaks to the issue of "Enlightenment." That is, seeing both sides of every equation, the good and the bad, and then seeking the heart of the matter, which is where Pluto dwells, in the energetic components of it all. Hell, where the Devil resides, and Pluto according to mythology, is also linked with the Earth's core. It is hot, steamy energy, that yes, is very dangerous (like the "Devil") but also necessary. It holds the Earth together, and fuels our planet and its unique ecosystems, in part necessary for life on this planet. It is the opposing force to the Gravitational pull of the Sun which is necessary for the Earth to even exist. In this way, it has a unique relationship to the Sun, and therefore highlighting how the "Devil" has a unique relationship to the "Creator."
Now, on the flip-side of this discussion of the Devil or Satan, is Satanism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism
I think this sounds a lot like Taurus, actually, which is Venusian, and hot, steamy, dangerous, and destructive, but also considered the planet of love and harmony, and of relating, music, poetry, connection.
Currently I have Pluto moving through the 12th, in Capricorn, so I think, as the website pointed out with a connection to house placements, signs, and so on, its important to considers Saturn's role in this. I think it has to do with temperance. Saturn "tempers" Pluto, and together they create the perfect prism symphony of light between the Sun and Pluto, harnessing the side-bar which is the Taurus/Venusian energies, and drawing forth Mars as a way of acting upon this energy.
Pluto is energy and I think it calls to the fore one's attendance to personal strength and autonomy. Yes this is a "divisor" from the Universal or the All-knowing God body, but this how we exist here on this planet, divided and seeking wholeness through a variety of means (relating and acting- Venus and Mars respectively.)
We can't banish Pluto to the dungeons of Hell. We deserve a right as a Spiritual Beings to manifest our own destinies and act upon our own self-will. Why else would we be given this opportunity? To simply suffer from temptation, or find strength in the balance of give and take? To rejoice in feeling powerful and therefore linked with the Power of the Creative energies of the Universe? It is like achieving God within one's self, finding God's eternal flame, to see one's self as both the Created and Creator- the dark and light that is the Universal and the Universe.
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divine g
Banned
Mod,
First of all I like that phrase " the All-knowing God body"...yes!
You spoke on a lot here, and as yourself, I'm beyond the "traditional" descriptions of God and Devil, but sometimes I experience things in life that make me want to reduce things to their most basic essence...I believe in the power of symbols, and I know the "Devil" has his place in the grand order of things.
I have one tatoo on my body, it's that of the yin and the yang, which is a Taoist symbol with infinite meanings. In that symbol, I see the two opposing forces of God and Devil in constant struggle, good and evil, light and dark, positive and negative, etc. As a Gemini, I'm always struggling with my own angels and demons. The thing about that symbol is, there is a small piece of each side in the other.
I haven't read your link yet, but from what I've gathered, it is a hedonistic philosophy, where there is no "God" to stop you from doing what you want. "Do what thou wilt" was Crowley's mantra. I took a look at their "Bible", and it doesn't seem all bad, except, that's the devil's trick. He'll lure you in with pleasure, and it feels good, next thing you know, you're in Hell. And I've experienced physical hells on earth as well as heavenly places. In true yin/yang fashion, the two can seem interchangeable. To a drug addict, that high is heaven, when in reality they're in hell.
I can go on and on, but I was intrigued by Buddhist descriptions of different levels of hell, which are very vivid, and make sense according to the basic laws of physics, and the Law of Karma. Even in man's law, if you do something bad, you'll end up in a bad place. "The all-knowing God body" is no diffferent, and I think He placed the Devil as the ruler over that hell that evil people go to.
So I know as a society we've evolved from the traditional images of God and Devil, but at the end of the day, the old symbolism still carries a lot of weight. I also know of Capricorn ruling the Tarot card of the devil, yet we celebrate Christmas, Christ's birth in a Capricorn month. Yin and Yang. Confusing. Tricky. God himself can be tricky. If he wanted things to be simple, He would have destroyed the Devil a long time ago, and that would be it, end of argument. But the Devil is still here, in many forms. (I actually just heard a popular artist call the Internet the devil).
Either way here's my point. Just a thought from my morning meditation, as I followed Pluto through the houses, it's only when it reached the 12th that I saw, and felt that invisible, demonic energy that leads us into temptation. And the actual reason that I felt compelled to post this thread is, my ex had Pluto in Scorpio in 12th (a position I've heard called the "uber-psycho"
). Sure enough, we split up shortly after she came to my house making a scene, and I never saw her like that. It's as if she was possessed by some dark force. And it was an exact repeat of my 1st girlfriend a long time ago who did the exact same thing.
I would say Pluto represents the Devil as the dark side of Karma, administering punishment for the bad things we did in the past. It was really strange as my 1st ex seemingly reincarnated into the most recent one to give me hell. The 12th house is either heaven or hell depending on your karma. I think Pluto becomes the Devil in the 12th if there is bad karma there..
First of all I like that phrase " the All-knowing God body"...yes!
You spoke on a lot here, and as yourself, I'm beyond the "traditional" descriptions of God and Devil, but sometimes I experience things in life that make me want to reduce things to their most basic essence...I believe in the power of symbols, and I know the "Devil" has his place in the grand order of things.
I have one tatoo on my body, it's that of the yin and the yang, which is a Taoist symbol with infinite meanings. In that symbol, I see the two opposing forces of God and Devil in constant struggle, good and evil, light and dark, positive and negative, etc. As a Gemini, I'm always struggling with my own angels and demons. The thing about that symbol is, there is a small piece of each side in the other.
I haven't read your link yet, but from what I've gathered, it is a hedonistic philosophy, where there is no "God" to stop you from doing what you want. "Do what thou wilt" was Crowley's mantra. I took a look at their "Bible", and it doesn't seem all bad, except, that's the devil's trick. He'll lure you in with pleasure, and it feels good, next thing you know, you're in Hell. And I've experienced physical hells on earth as well as heavenly places. In true yin/yang fashion, the two can seem interchangeable. To a drug addict, that high is heaven, when in reality they're in hell.
I can go on and on, but I was intrigued by Buddhist descriptions of different levels of hell, which are very vivid, and make sense according to the basic laws of physics, and the Law of Karma. Even in man's law, if you do something bad, you'll end up in a bad place. "The all-knowing God body" is no diffferent, and I think He placed the Devil as the ruler over that hell that evil people go to.
So I know as a society we've evolved from the traditional images of God and Devil, but at the end of the day, the old symbolism still carries a lot of weight. I also know of Capricorn ruling the Tarot card of the devil, yet we celebrate Christmas, Christ's birth in a Capricorn month. Yin and Yang. Confusing. Tricky. God himself can be tricky. If he wanted things to be simple, He would have destroyed the Devil a long time ago, and that would be it, end of argument. But the Devil is still here, in many forms. (I actually just heard a popular artist call the Internet the devil).
Either way here's my point. Just a thought from my morning meditation, as I followed Pluto through the houses, it's only when it reached the 12th that I saw, and felt that invisible, demonic energy that leads us into temptation. And the actual reason that I felt compelled to post this thread is, my ex had Pluto in Scorpio in 12th (a position I've heard called the "uber-psycho"
). Sure enough, we split up shortly after she came to my house making a scene, and I never saw her like that. It's as if she was possessed by some dark force. And it was an exact repeat of my 1st girlfriend a long time ago who did the exact same thing.I would say Pluto represents the Devil as the dark side of Karma, administering punishment for the bad things we did in the past. It was really strange as my 1st ex seemingly reincarnated into the most recent one to give me hell. The 12th house is either heaven or hell depending on your karma. I think Pluto becomes the Devil in the 12th if there is bad karma there..
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Vagabondgirl
Well-known member
Strange to hear about this today, because last night I dreamt about an angel looking being that called himself the devil and told me that I was going to have satans child because my name is the name of Jesuses mother:/ I had a good laugh when I awoke though.
But I was thinking, does this have anything to do with my mercury conjunct pluto? I often wonder about this too... The same question as you. As Ive had alot of "fallen angels" or just angel dreams.
But I was thinking, does this have anything to do with my mercury conjunct pluto? I often wonder about this too... The same question as you. As Ive had alot of "fallen angels" or just angel dreams.
Culpeper
Premium Member
Since the time of Augustine, Christians have claimed that astrology and every other concept from the ancient world is satanic. This was all done as part of their propaganda to frighten people into becoming christians. It is just all false nonsence invented in the fourth and fifth centuries. And Pluto is not the devil.
In mundane astrology going back over time when Pluto is prominent, tyrants and other evil forces of the world appear to be overthrown. From that perspective the corrupt establishment may consider Pluto an evil influence. However, for ordinary people this is usually a benefit.
In mundane astrology going back over time when Pluto is prominent, tyrants and other evil forces of the world appear to be overthrown. From that perspective the corrupt establishment may consider Pluto an evil influence. However, for ordinary people this is usually a benefit.
divine g
Banned
Vagabond,
Yes, Pluto conj Mercury shows a very deep, penetrating mind. I have Pluto in my 3rd, so I can relate.
And Culpepper, regardless of how the Church tries to manipulate the fear of the dark side to benefit them, there IS such a dark force, and it is NOT pleasant. We call this force the devil because we ALL have experience his hell in one way or another.
So symbolically, I think Pluto represents the devil, but more specifically, when found in the 12th house.
But you'll have a hard time convincing anyone rational with life experience, that there is no such thing as evil in this world. Just because evil doesnt walk around with horns and a pitchfork doesn't mean he doesn't exist. In fact, if you look at the story of Adam and Eve, the Devil was a snake in the grass, crawling on its belly by our feet(12th house). He was known as the most subtle beast in the field.
"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled on the world was convincing them he didn't exist"---(From the movie 'Seven')
Yes, Pluto conj Mercury shows a very deep, penetrating mind. I have Pluto in my 3rd, so I can relate.
And Culpepper, regardless of how the Church tries to manipulate the fear of the dark side to benefit them, there IS such a dark force, and it is NOT pleasant. We call this force the devil because we ALL have experience his hell in one way or another.
So symbolically, I think Pluto represents the devil, but more specifically, when found in the 12th house.
But you'll have a hard time convincing anyone rational with life experience, that there is no such thing as evil in this world. Just because evil doesnt walk around with horns and a pitchfork doesn't mean he doesn't exist. In fact, if you look at the story of Adam and Eve, the Devil was a snake in the grass, crawling on its belly by our feet(12th house). He was known as the most subtle beast in the field.
"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled on the world was convincing them he didn't exist"---(From the movie 'Seven')
Modcleopatra
Banned
I like this image too, it allows me to weave everything together about life into a conceptual symbol of God, like a blanket of stars and the milky way. :dreamy:
I don't like to reduce things to their basic essences, unless I am making a vegetable stock, in which case, reduction is the only answer.
Symbols are not representative of basic essences. They are basic essences captured in symbolic form. It's like saying that splitting an atom is the basic essence of an atom, because it explodes into an image we can see. We can only see this essence of the atom if we alter its expression, otherwise we are simply left guessing as to how to approach this atom if we want to understand its properties and its essence. We can only symbolize it to the best of our abilities, sometimes destroying one another in the process of enjoying/exploring its power. The Devil has its place, but it can represent any number of things, at any number of times.I like what you say here, the thing about the symbol is that there is a small piece of each side in the other. Of course there is, but that is the only way to wholeness, is to appreciate how the two work together. I don't see it as a struggle but a synthesis, a harmonization, a symphony and glorious union and renuion flowing from the center out and to the center inwards and never collapsing nor expanding but simply blooming and closing, in a great cycle which is neither good nor bad but simply is.
I think you may have misunderstood Satanism, I know I have often struggled with understanding it myself, but I rather like to listen to the sort of off-pitch components of the world, and to deal with the things I don't consider normal or appreciable by typical standards.
Satanism is about freedom from bondage, about declaring self-will and autonomy free from any Cruel or Destructive God-Body, or the ominscent punishing God so fundamental to many religious teachings. It is about taking responsibility through examining, realizing, and appreciating that which gives you pleasure and balancing yourself within your true nature. Seeing the bit of each on either side of who you are and working with that, not denying it.
Now I'm not Satanist, but I do know a good soup requires a fairly reduced broth.
What tastes good needs to be weaned from its sources, and we deserve pleasure, not martyrdom. Freedom from temptation requires being able to work for what tastes and feels good in a balanced way. Funny, studies show recidivism rates for prisons go down when the initial punishment for a crime (albeit not a serious crime such as rape or murder, which I think falls into an entirely different category) is light, rather than strong. Something about simply calling attention to something bad, a light touch, can be just as effective. A brush with the power of the Law, rather than a "slam to the can."
Well, simplicity is the desired outcome, freedom through abandoning attachment to suffering. Christ was born on the crux of a simple message- Do Unto Others as You Would Have Them Do Unto You. Of course, this can get rather complex and this statement can only be made and understood if we see God as this two-faced, tricky magician type, a mirror image, like the Yin and Yang.
I'm thinking now of the Garden of Eden. Why was that serpent there? Maybe God wants us to have a bite and have a little bit of power to operate from. Christ had universal knowledge, knowledge of the heart, which can be red, like an apple, or green, like the heart chakra, and yet also like Granny Smith apple, perhaps representing older knowledge. I'm thinking of Grandma apples.
Either way here's my point. Just a thought from my morning meditation, as I followed Pluto through the houses, it's only when it reached the 12th that I saw, and felt that invisible, demonic energy that leads us into temptation. And the actual reason that I felt compelled to post this thread is, my ex had Pluto in Scorpio in 12th (a position I've heard called the "uber-psycho"
Your ex doesn't deserve to be banished to the chronicles of her natal chart. She deserve compassion and empathy, which are not always soft. If you see the Buddha in the road, KILL IT! (Sheldon Kopp)
Two black and white for me, too much atomic energy being split down the middle. I don't think Karma works like that. It is the yearning of the Lotus flower to be born of the muck and mire it was once in.
Just as an aside, I have Pluto in Scorpio conjunct my MC in the 10th, square Sun in Cancer and Mercury in Leo, Pluto Sextile Capricorn ASC and sextile Venus in Virgo in the 8th.
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divine g
Banned
Mod,
When I say reduce, that's just my Gemini way of saying, "to make a long story short". Because these days, we don't have enough time for long philosophical discussions on God. And Mercury wants to get things done quickly, in and out, "cut to the chase" so to speak.For example, if a child asks, is crack cocaine good? You say, no it's bad. Long story short. Your spouse calls and says, I had a few drinks, I'm driving home. You say, no I'm calling you a cab. End of story.
So certain things are non-negotiable, and I like to get to the heart of the matter by cutting away the excess fat. If as parents, we tell our kids about Santa Claus, is that really so bad? Kids dont want to get into Nietsche and long philosophical discussions on existentialism, but they understand on a deep level the lesson about life, and what happens to who is "naughty or nice". We all have free will to experiment and bend the rules, but as for me, I like to stay on the right side of the law. Because I learned the hard way the repercussions that come with breaking the rules. "To each his own" and "Do what thou wilt", but don't call me to bail you out!
As for the ex, yes I have compassion for her, because she has a family demon of alcoholism that ruined her father, destroyed her family, and she seems to have absolutely no control over her addiction. When I spoke up about it, it only got worse. We broke up, and a year later, she's doing the exact same thing. Imagine, a young beautiful lady who has spent the past year in bars, and what she looks like now. I truly feel bad for alcoholics because they are trying to escape a depression and it only gets worse because they are treating it with the wrong medication. And Pluto rules addiction, so he's destroying them through their own addiction, holding them hostage like Hades held Persephone in the underworld.
So that's just a real-life example of how Pluto works in that 12th house. He'll have you thinking you're swimming up, and you're really swimming down. Pluto in the 12th is ruthless in his use of people's own self-delusions, and in the "house of undoing", he gives people an obsessive need to completely destroy themselves. To make things worse, he works invisibly in the 12th.
Some things in life are pretty much black and white. Killing someone for no reason is bad. Teaching your baby how to smoke is bad. And society, uses terms like the Devil to make a long story short, and we get the picture.
Anyway Mod, it's interesting how you also thought of the Garden of Eden, I mentioned it above as well. To the uninitiated, it seems like a children's story, but there are so man layers of truth. Pluto in 12th is like that snake on the ground, moving beneath the grass unseen. And God Himself also took on Plutonian qualities by banishing Adam and Eve from the Garden for ever. That was pretty ruthless.
Either way, of all planets, I've had the worst experiences with Pluto. Mercury will teach you a lesson by making fun of you, like a kid teasing, Venus teaches by example, Mars will give you a black eye, Jupiter will have you gain 15 pounds to teach you not to overeat, Saturn is that long arm of the law that will discipline you as the legal system sees fit, Chiron teaches through wise stories of his painful experiences, Uranus teaches through bolts of lightning and electrical shock to wake you up, Neptune teaches through dreams. But Pluto is that awesome, unforgiving destructive force. It has its benefits, as evil people usually get what they deserve, befitting Pluto's rulership over Scorpio and elimination of what's negative. But the way it acts invisibly in the 12th is the closest aspect I can see as an astrological representation of the Christian concept of the devil. That's all I'm saying here...
When I say reduce, that's just my Gemini way of saying, "to make a long story short". Because these days, we don't have enough time for long philosophical discussions on God. And Mercury wants to get things done quickly, in and out, "cut to the chase" so to speak.For example, if a child asks, is crack cocaine good? You say, no it's bad. Long story short. Your spouse calls and says, I had a few drinks, I'm driving home. You say, no I'm calling you a cab. End of story.
So certain things are non-negotiable, and I like to get to the heart of the matter by cutting away the excess fat. If as parents, we tell our kids about Santa Claus, is that really so bad? Kids dont want to get into Nietsche and long philosophical discussions on existentialism, but they understand on a deep level the lesson about life, and what happens to who is "naughty or nice". We all have free will to experiment and bend the rules, but as for me, I like to stay on the right side of the law. Because I learned the hard way the repercussions that come with breaking the rules. "To each his own" and "Do what thou wilt", but don't call me to bail you out!
As for the ex, yes I have compassion for her, because she has a family demon of alcoholism that ruined her father, destroyed her family, and she seems to have absolutely no control over her addiction. When I spoke up about it, it only got worse. We broke up, and a year later, she's doing the exact same thing. Imagine, a young beautiful lady who has spent the past year in bars, and what she looks like now. I truly feel bad for alcoholics because they are trying to escape a depression and it only gets worse because they are treating it with the wrong medication. And Pluto rules addiction, so he's destroying them through their own addiction, holding them hostage like Hades held Persephone in the underworld.
So that's just a real-life example of how Pluto works in that 12th house. He'll have you thinking you're swimming up, and you're really swimming down. Pluto in the 12th is ruthless in his use of people's own self-delusions, and in the "house of undoing", he gives people an obsessive need to completely destroy themselves. To make things worse, he works invisibly in the 12th.
Some things in life are pretty much black and white. Killing someone for no reason is bad. Teaching your baby how to smoke is bad. And society, uses terms like the Devil to make a long story short, and we get the picture.
Anyway Mod, it's interesting how you also thought of the Garden of Eden, I mentioned it above as well. To the uninitiated, it seems like a children's story, but there are so man layers of truth. Pluto in 12th is like that snake on the ground, moving beneath the grass unseen. And God Himself also took on Plutonian qualities by banishing Adam and Eve from the Garden for ever. That was pretty ruthless.
Either way, of all planets, I've had the worst experiences with Pluto. Mercury will teach you a lesson by making fun of you, like a kid teasing, Venus teaches by example, Mars will give you a black eye, Jupiter will have you gain 15 pounds to teach you not to overeat, Saturn is that long arm of the law that will discipline you as the legal system sees fit, Chiron teaches through wise stories of his painful experiences, Uranus teaches through bolts of lightning and electrical shock to wake you up, Neptune teaches through dreams. But Pluto is that awesome, unforgiving destructive force. It has its benefits, as evil people usually get what they deserve, befitting Pluto's rulership over Scorpio and elimination of what's negative. But the way it acts invisibly in the 12th is the closest aspect I can see as an astrological representation of the Christian concept of the devil. That's all I'm saying here...
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divine g
Banned
And with that being said, Pluto can also be seen as God's bad side...
I just stumbled on this scene from Training Day. Denzel Washington, Capricorn, does a great job of acting like the devil personified. The co-actor is a Scorpio, he's actually the good guy, who ends up shooting Denzel in the end. This is all random, but I think Denzel's character really reflects Pluto in Capricorn now, as a ruthless authority figure abusing his power..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGJ7Ct6LHs8&playnext_from=TL&videos=-fm4LBA6wHA&feature=grec_index
I just stumbled on this scene from Training Day. Denzel Washington, Capricorn, does a great job of acting like the devil personified. The co-actor is a Scorpio, he's actually the good guy, who ends up shooting Denzel in the end. This is all random, but I think Denzel's character really reflects Pluto in Capricorn now, as a ruthless authority figure abusing his power..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGJ7Ct6LHs8&playnext_from=TL&videos=-fm4LBA6wHA&feature=grec_index
Modcleopatra
Banned
Yes, for issues of practicality and expediency, sometimes one must just skip the preamble, the appetizer, and the sorbet, and cut right to the chase. I am in trouble- HELP ME NOW! I AM IN THE DESERT, THIRSTY AND STARVING, AND THE ONLY THING WORTH DRINKING IS SUGAR WATER, WHY ARE YOU BRINGING ME OPTIONS? THE ANSWER IS SIMPLE (simple sugar water
). I'm thinking of how Moses and the Jews wandered the desert for 40 years, and all they received was Mana- the sugar water of the Torah. I am all about the "ends justifying the means" in these kinds of Emergency Situations. Fortunately I am not a Doctor and can't get sued for making a life-changing decision in this respect that the patient or the patient's family doesn't agree with.
I also see your point about crack cocaine. I just worry that saying crack cocaine is bad might be too much to the point if you don't say, "but those who are using crack cocaine deserve redemption and we understand them, on a spiritual level, as we are all potentially subject to the doing of bad things, and no one person is over the other in this respect." I see it as a more complex and I hate to render it so black and white because people get dangerous, hateful, and spiteful towards one another if you don't clarify the murkiness a bit before giving them the straight skinny.
But see, I'm also thinking of the White Rabbit in Alice in Wonderland- "No Time to say Hello/Goodbye, I'm late, I'm late, I'm late!" Talk about cutting to the chase, and always being in a chase! Of course, the thing is, if we operate like this all of the time, we are actually being really impractical. If you're always cutting to the chase, always seeking clarity between good and bad, then you're going to miss the process altogether, and end up only chasing yourself into madness! "The right answer is around here somewhere.... I know it is...." Sociopaths operate in black and white, as do some schizophrenic-types.
LOL! Can you imagine telling a kid about Santa Claus and then saying: "but I want you have a balanced perspective. we must explore this further, so let's talk about what Neitzsche says, ok?" And then the child nods happily and we are all transported to some strange alternative universe.
I like what you say here, that a simple message is being expressed, and yet it is being done through a story or a fabrication (still not sure on my end, if Santa Claus is real, but I also know I almost called him Satan Claus
) and a symbol of what happens when we are good or bad. Then again, coal isn't so bad because that's a source of fuel, and if you bury it, a source of diamonds. I don't think, however, that it does a child a service to keep it this simple. You can instead, ask a question: "Child of mine, [we'll call mine Petunia Grace) what do you think happens when Children are Naughty? Why do we encourage Children to be Nice?"
In the background is not a definite sense of good and evil, but of not bringing harm to one's self or others- Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You.
It opens up a discussion and gives children a sense of free-will to make good decisions. I know I myself have been on the "wrong side of the law" but that was because I needed the Law to remind me that I am a capable individual, able to control myself with the Law constantly reminding me. I work with the Law, and the Law is a reflection of me and my needs. Sometimes the Law punishes, but only what I've said to have punish me, and in the end, it was only me punishing myself. We are our first, last, and only judge, when it comes to joy and redemption here on Earth.
A demon? By calling this a demon how can she EVER seek to control it? How can it ever be banished? Demons already enjoy hell so where are we going to put them? We set them free and embrace ourselves. "I am not my addiction," I am stronger than my addiction, and I release this demon to a power higher than myself. We put OURSELVES in the Hell, and then we can look at the sky from the ground up, and realize, the entire Universe longs for us to be free from our shackles, it just has to give us the tools, the ground, and the space to do it on. Compassion for me in this sense would be reminded her of her own inner resource of strength, not recapitulating her woe-be-gone family history. THAT'S HISTORY. Put her control of her present and future by reminding her to pluck the gems of her past and use them to reward herself now. "You free yourself from this addiction, and you can do ANYTHING."
For me, Pluto does not rule addiction, I think Pluto represents addiction. Persephone was a young woman RAPED by Pluto. I don't think he has any control over himself in this respect, so how is this RULING addiction? He is in fact, succumbing to his own devices (which is at the essence of what we all do, for good or for evil.) The Devil is only a creature of lust, afterall.
I know many alcoholics. I do not judge them, nor do I feel bad for them. I feel empathy for them. I know those struggles in my own shadowy way, and I set them free by not connecting them to their addictions. I envision them as separate from their pain in this way. "You are NOT your depression," I whisper in my energetic exchanges with them.
It is sad, this story, but best to not get caught up in the sadness, but to simply offer healing.
Funny, I've only seen Pluto as the great healer. The poison in the medicine and vice versa. Not always easy to remember but, it is worth it to try. It is the clear mind and the steady-ness of purpose, coupled with an open heart, that allows us to embrace Pluto as we need it. What better place to put Pluto then, than in the House of the Spirit. Perhaps she was not strong enough yet to deal with it, and perhaps she is just a symbol to humanity, as 12th housers sometimes become (I'm thinking of Jesus as the great martyr who also sets us free from Martyrdom). Some people, for reasons we cannot know, due to their own Karma, must face things kinds of demons. I pray for them, and being a Plutonic type, I desire to heal them and free them in some way. It brings tears to my eyes, the people I met in my own rehabilitation, as Pluto has transited through my 12th house. I am constantly surrounded by a vortex of demonstrative, strong, radiant, revitalizing Plutonic energy. *MY* issue came from OTHER PEOPLE and I also saw these issues as my own. (12th house is about losing/replacing/reconfiguring boundaries between self/other/and the universe.) That is the beauty of the 12th house Pluto and the strength one can realize, if one goes inward and reaches upward, outward, and below, for the truth and the healing.
Some things in life are pretty much black and white. Killing someone for no reason is bad. Teaching your baby how to smoke is bad. And society, uses terms like the Devil to make a long story short, and we get the picture.
Killing someone for no reason seems impossible to me. If you kill someone for no reason, can you even exist? If the person said: " I just felt like killing them," isn't that a reason? And what if this person is a sociopath? Are they BAD AND EVIL or are they BAD FOR SOCIETY? We decide, by the power VESTED IN US (by God who made in us In God's Likeness.)
Teaching your baby how to smoke COULD be a bad thing, depends on what you are smoking, WHY you smoke, who you are smoking with, and so on.
I'm not sure if people get the picture unfortunately. We have a lot of people running around claiming they are doing God's work and harming one another, based on so-called concrete and universal notions of the Devil supplied by immagery.
I don't think there is an issue with those being unitiated. I think that's elitist. Sure, people need to study and be wizened by their own efforts, but that knowledge unto itself is the trap, if I remember correctly about Eden!
I see Pluto as the healer, that Jesus could heal the sick by being unafraid to walk with the sickness and those who were sick, despite having been cast off from society.
Niplan
Banned
Since Pluto rules everything dark and evil, could Pluto represent the devil himself?
I was meditating on Pluto moving through the houses, and I see Pluto in 12th as serving a dark and destructive spiritual force, aka Satan or the devil.
Anyone agree?
How was "dark and evil" manifested before the discovery of pluto in astrology charts?
A "dark destructive spitiruatl force" Isn't always the polarity opposite of the commonly accepted diety. A dark avenger, or black paladin would be more appropriate for the imagery your suggesting.
Pluto isn't evil, hes misunderstood, like neptune. Its not so much "Evil" (as evil is entirely subjective to the mores of society at the time). If spitting was a crime that could get you 20 years in prison, then society would say spitting is evil.
Pluto is that tiny comfort in being miserable, its the addiction to bad feelings, but the reason we are addicted to bad feelings, is so we are aware that we have them, and don't ignore them and suppress them. Like people who have murderous rage, and suppress it their whole lives and one day die of a heart attack.
Its the generational storm around the calm tiny little center.
"Do what thou wilt and harm none shall be the whole of the law."
This means that if your a criminal, be a criminal, but don't hurt people. If your a sex freak, be a sex freak, Gay, a druggie, etc. etc. doing what you want, within the confines of your own personal space. its actualy a very amazing concept.
"In a thousand years from now, crowlieism will replace all other forms of thought as the main stream religion"
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divine g
Banned
Mod,
I'm also a Capricorn moon, and Pluto is over my moon now. It's funny because that girl came to live with me right as Pluto conjuncted my moon. I don't see Pluto as a bad guy, he's been good to me at times. I think through good karma, I've been blessed with alot of wealth through other people, inheritances etc, all that 8th house stuff.
But again, it's that Pluto in 12th that gave me a funny feeling. Actually, when Pluto conjuncted my natal Neptune, I was lost in my own world of..ahem..substance abuse. A very turbulent time, but a blessing in disguise. I guess that "devil" was actually like a form of god, saying, "you dont wanna come back here buddy". My rock bottom is always there with me, constantly reminding me to stay in line, and walk a straight path. My most poignant memory of my visit to the underworld was, everyone there was looking for God. And I'm talking about a real, physical place...But I digress. Looking back at it, this ex is a reflection of my former younger self, that I had to see clearly to understand my own hidden demons.
But Alice in wonderland is a great way to describe my Pluto in 3rd. I've always had that youthful curiosity to look obsessively deeper into things until I got to the bottom of it. I guess that's what led me to astrology. now on my list of things to do, watch Alice in Wonderland and analyze it to death for its deeper meaning
You say tomato, I say tomahto! lol
I'm also a Capricorn moon, and Pluto is over my moon now. It's funny because that girl came to live with me right as Pluto conjuncted my moon. I don't see Pluto as a bad guy, he's been good to me at times. I think through good karma, I've been blessed with alot of wealth through other people, inheritances etc, all that 8th house stuff.
But again, it's that Pluto in 12th that gave me a funny feeling. Actually, when Pluto conjuncted my natal Neptune, I was lost in my own world of..ahem..substance abuse. A very turbulent time, but a blessing in disguise. I guess that "devil" was actually like a form of god, saying, "you dont wanna come back here buddy". My rock bottom is always there with me, constantly reminding me to stay in line, and walk a straight path. My most poignant memory of my visit to the underworld was, everyone there was looking for God. And I'm talking about a real, physical place...But I digress. Looking back at it, this ex is a reflection of my former younger self, that I had to see clearly to understand my own hidden demons.
I hope you're not implying that I'm a socio-pathic schizophrenic!
But Alice in wonderland is a great way to describe my Pluto in 3rd. I've always had that youthful curiosity to look obsessively deeper into things until I got to the bottom of it. I guess that's what led me to astrology. now on my list of things to do, watch Alice in Wonderland and analyze it to death for its deeper meaning
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Niplan
Banned
watch Alice in Wonderland and analyze it to death for its deeper meaning
you could just go ask alice when she's ten feet tall...
Modcleopatra
Banned
Mod,
You say tomato, I say tomahto! lol
I'm also a Capricorn moon, and Pluto is over my moon now. It's funny because that girl came to live with me right as Pluto conjuncted my moon. I don't see Pluto as a bad guy, he's been good to me at times. I think through good karma, I've been blessed with alot of wealth through other people, inheritances etc, all that 8th house stuff.
But again, it's that Pluto in 12th that gave me a funny feeling. Actually, when Pluto conjuncted my natal Neptune, I was lost in my own world of..ahem..substance abuse. A very turbulent time, but a blessing in disguise. I guess that "devil" was actually like a form of god, saying, "you dont wanna come back here buddy". My rock bottom is always there with me, constantly reminding me to stay in line, and walk a straight path. My most poignant memory of my visit to the underworld was, everyone there was looking for God. And I'm talking about a real, physical place...But I digress. Looking back at it, this ex is a reflection of my former younger self, that I had to see clearly to understand my own hidden demons.
I hope you're not implying that I'm a socio-pathic schizophrenic!
But Alice in wonderland is a great way to describe my Pluto in 3rd. I've always had that youthful curiosity to look obsessively deeper into things until I got to the bottom of it. I guess that's what led me to astrology. now on my list of things to do, watch Alice in Wonderland and analyze it to death for its deeper meaning
Hahaha yes, yes, it seems like you and I are looking at the same thing but seeing it differently. Isn't that the beauty of being separate from one another? More to do and to learn!
As for you sounding like a Sociopath.... Haha NOPE! You just sound a LOT like a Gemini. (is there a difference? I don't know anymore
) It's fine actually, and really get a lot out of the Cancer-Gemini dynamic. I am a Cancer, with my Venus square Saturn, so I love the teacher-student exchange. We have this because I think if I remember you have some Leo in your chart, which is good for my Cancer-- a good back and forth as we have seen here. And with your Capricorn Moon, this has proved to be MOST rewarding (and you and both know we love our knowledge. ) Plus I have Mercury square Pluto so I like the feel of Pluto in the 3rd, good mental workout I always say!Right now I have Pluto transiting over my natal Neptune conjunct my ASC in the 12th, just about to make its way over my ASC. I can't say I've escaped too much (maybe from my work but UGH it's paperwork... I really need to do it... UGH) nor have I gotten involved with drugs (maybe some for some recreational fun but I know very well to stay away from them or to be completely by myself if I engage in the green and just JOURNAL or PAINT or DANCE but do not try to make sense of anything, it's about inspiration. I guess I feel this way because my Neptune is in Capricorn and receives only positive aspects, fortunately. Then again, DRUGS TERRIFY ME and I have to be VERY VERY careful.)
I hit rock bottom when Pluto conjuncted my Natal Uranus in the 12th, and therefore squared my natal Jupiter in the second and Venus in the 8th. You're right... I DO NOT WANT TO GO BACK THERE! But at least I got to go there and didn't have to walk around blindfolded to the truth. I recalled being a rape/incest survivor as a child, put my father in the hospital (minor) got arrested
but best of all, began the process of healing my entire family and sick, pathological pattern which was plaguing us all. It could just be my own Pluto-Scorpio MC talking here, but I know that I am literally met with tears of joy when I see the freedom my journey with Pluto through 12th house done for the people I love. But most of all, what it has done for me. My sister is just about to start this process, so this really interests me as to the ways in which I can help her. The Pluto knowledge though and learning, just seems to come so naturally in a way, I guess because the process is so difficult that you get to keep it.
divine g
Banned
Skillcoil,
I don't think I phrased it that way. If an atheist does good deeds, why should he be destroyed? Plus, everyone has different definitions of what atheist is. Most people are confused as to who God is, but there is a type of person out there who hate everything to do with God, or the Bible. Judging from stories in the Bible, where God destroyed certain cities for certain things, He mostly got those who were just BEGGING him to do it.
Either way, the Pluto argument was unrelated, but who knows, maybe unconsciously I'm onto a connection, that's what I meditate for. To see what's going on in this little old mind of mine.
For the record, I have issues with Pluto, but he's not going anywhere. Let's just say he's a necessary evil. In my life, I've had terrible things happen, that transformed into great things, like the phoenix rising from the ashes of the fire. In fact I can be pretty Plutonian myself. My argument is only that Pluto in 12th evokes images of the devil for me, and it's also based on personal experience.
I don't think I phrased it that way. If an atheist does good deeds, why should he be destroyed? Plus, everyone has different definitions of what atheist is. Most people are confused as to who God is, but there is a type of person out there who hate everything to do with God, or the Bible. Judging from stories in the Bible, where God destroyed certain cities for certain things, He mostly got those who were just BEGGING him to do it.
Either way, the Pluto argument was unrelated, but who knows, maybe unconsciously I'm onto a connection, that's what I meditate for. To see what's going on in this little old mind of mine.
For the record, I have issues with Pluto, but he's not going anywhere. Let's just say he's a necessary evil. In my life, I've had terrible things happen, that transformed into great things, like the phoenix rising from the ashes of the fire. In fact I can be pretty Plutonian myself. My argument is only that Pluto in 12th evokes images of the devil for me, and it's also based on personal experience.
Modcleopatra
Banned
Perfect! I wish I had thought of this. Here is something about Kali:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali
This has to do with the destructive feminine energy (western teachings might compare her to Lillith) and how really it is restorative and transmutative.
divine g
Banned
Skillcoll,
Yes 12th house is more or less unconscious until someone or something makes you conscious of it. Even myself, I wasn't aware she had a problem, til I took the love blinders off. Like all addiction, she's in denial. It's sad really. Because it's so unnecessary, she's smart and beautiful, but this Pluto in 12th is driving her to destroy herself. With addiction, sometimes they are aware, but can't do anything to stop it. Kind of like being in a car that's spinning out of control, you know it's out of control but can't stop it.
Well, the devil impacts people negatively by tricking them, by being subtle, and cunning like a fox, giving them what they want, making them think he's on their side. As for God being the entity to punish people who don't respect Him, why wouldn't He be? If the Creator wants to take matters into his own hands, who can stop Him? All I'm saying is, if you read Scriptures, a lot of things would not surprise you. If you read a story about God creating the Earth, and mankind, then destroying them ALL with a flood because He felt they were all violent and wicked, then something like a Katrina wouldn't surprise you. In fact, if you were thankful, you would thank God He didn't come and destroy you and yours...I know I'm thankful
To ModCleopatra, thanks for sharing that...I went through something similar, my dad was pretty abusive and it spread like a chain reaction through my family, and when I went through hell, we all went through it. But things have transformed, even him. But it took alot of destruction to get to this point. There was no other way to get to him. So I do see pluto as a necessary evil.
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Vagabondgirl
Well-known member
I think Pluto could have similarities with Lucifer. Lucifer was once an angel right? Then he wanted it all and became what we call evil. Pluto rules scorpio, scorpio can sting sometimes when threatened. Scorpio/pluto is a strong energy I think, for good OR bad!
Scorpio or plutonian people are good to begin with, but maybe something can turn them over to something bad, although they have a choice ofcourse. Many people think the grass is greener on the other side, but its what gets you there that matters, if youre willing to do the "bad stuff" to get there or not.
Scorpio/pluto and the 8th house also has something to do with the other side or maybe the inbetween place, place you go when you die. And thats maybe where these "angels" and "demons" are? It works for me. I dont know what other planet would represent Lucifer....
Scorpio or plutonian people are good to begin with, but maybe something can turn them over to something bad, although they have a choice ofcourse. Many people think the grass is greener on the other side, but its what gets you there that matters, if youre willing to do the "bad stuff" to get there or not.
Scorpio/pluto and the 8th house also has something to do with the other side or maybe the inbetween place, place you go when you die. And thats maybe where these "angels" and "demons" are? It works for me. I dont know what other planet would represent Lucifer....
Vagabondgirl
Well-known member
Yes, for issues of practicality and expediency, sometimes one must just skip the preamble, the appetizer, and the sorbet, and cut right to the chase. I am in trouble- HELP ME NOW! I AM IN THE DESERT, THIRSTY AND STARVING, AND THE ONLY THING WORTH DRINKING IS SUGAR WATER, WHY ARE YOU BRINGING ME OPTIONS? THE ANSWER IS SIMPLE (simple sugar water
I am all about the "ends justifying the means" in these kinds of Emergency Situations. Fortunately I am not a Doctor and can't get sued for making a life-changing decision in this respect that the patient or the patient's family doesn't agree with.
I also see your point about crack cocaine. I just worry that saying crack cocaine is bad might be too much to the point if you don't say, "but those who are using crack cocaine deserve redemption and we understand them, on a spiritual level, as we are all potentially subject to the doing of bad things, and no one person is over the other in this respect." I see it as a more complex and I hate to render it so black and white because people get dangerous, hateful, and spiteful towards one another if you don't clarify the murkiness a bit before giving them the straight skinny.
But see, I'm also thinking of the White Rabbit in Alice in Wonderland- "No Time to say Hello/Goodbye, I'm late, I'm late, I'm late!" Talk about cutting to the chase, and always being in a chase! Of course, the thing is, if we operate like this all of the time, we are actually being really impractical. If you're always cutting to the chase, always seeking clarity between good and bad, then you're going to miss the process altogether, and end up only chasing yourself into madness! "The right answer is around here somewhere.... I know it is...." Sociopaths operate in black and white, as do some schizophrenic-types.
LOL! Can you imagine telling a kid about Santa Claus and then saying: "but I want you have a balanced perspective. we must explore this further, so let's talk about what Neitzsche says, ok?" And then the child nods happily and we are all transported to some strange alternative universe.
I like what you say here, that a simple message is being expressed, and yet it is being done through a story or a fabrication (still not sure on my end, if Santa Claus is real, but I also know I almost called him Satan Claus
I don't think, however, that it does a child a service to keep it this simple. You can instead, ask a question: "Child of mine, [we'll call mine Petunia Grace) what do you think happens when Children are Naughty? Why do we encourage Children to be Nice?"
In the background is not a definite sense of good and evil, but of not bringing harm to one's self or others- Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You.
It opens up a discussion and gives children a sense of free-will to make good decisions. I know I myself have been on the "wrong side of the law" but that was because I needed the Law to remind me that I am a capable individual, able to control myself with the Law constantly reminding me. I work with the Law, and the Law is a reflection of me and my needs. Sometimes the Law punishes, but only what I've said to have punish me, and in the end, it was only me punishing myself. We are our first, last, and only judge, when it comes to joy and redemption here on Earth.
A demon? By calling this a demon how can she EVER seek to control it? How can it ever be banished? Demons already enjoy hell so where are we going to put them? We set them free and embrace ourselves. "I am not my addiction," I am stronger than my addiction, and I release this demon to a power higher than myself. We put OURSELVES in the Hell, and then we can look at the sky from the ground up, and realize, the entire Universe longs for us to be free from our shackles, it just has to give us the tools, the ground, and the space to do it on. Compassion for me in this sense would be reminded her of her own inner resource of strength, not recapitulating her woe-be-gone family history. THAT'S HISTORY. Put her control of her present and future by reminding her to pluck the gems of her past and use them to reward herself now. "You free yourself from this addiction, and you can do ANYTHING."
For me, Pluto does not rule addiction, I think Pluto represents addiction. Persephone was a young woman RAPED by Pluto. I don't think he has any control over himself in this respect, so how is this RULING addiction? He is in fact, succumbing to his own devices (which is at the essence of what we all do, for good or for evil.) The Devil is only a creature of lust, afterall.
I know many alcoholics. I do not judge them, nor do I feel bad for them. I feel empathy for them. I know those struggles in my own shadowy way, and I set them free by not connecting them to their addictions. I envision them as separate from their pain in this way. "You are NOT your depression," I whisper in my energetic exchanges with them.
It is sad, this story, but best to not get caught up in the sadness, but to simply offer healing.
Funny, I've only seen Pluto as the great healer. The poison in the medicine and vice versa. Not always easy to remember but, it is worth it to try. It is the clear mind and the steady-ness of purpose, coupled with an open heart, that allows us to embrace Pluto as we need it. What better place to put Pluto then, than in the House of the Spirit. Perhaps she was not strong enough yet to deal with it, and perhaps she is just a symbol to humanity, as 12th housers sometimes become (I'm thinking of Jesus as the great martyr who also sets us free from Martyrdom). Some people, for reasons we cannot know, due to their own Karma, must face things kinds of demons. I pray for them, and being a Plutonic type, I desire to heal them and free them in some way. It brings tears to my eyes, the people I met in my own rehabilitation, as Pluto has transited through my 12th house. I am constantly surrounded by a vortex of demonstrative, strong, radiant, revitalizing Plutonic energy. *MY* issue came from OTHER PEOPLE and I also saw these issues as my own. (12th house is about losing/replacing/reconfiguring boundaries between self/other/and the universe.) That is the beauty of the 12th house Pluto and the strength one can realize, if one goes inward and reaches upward, outward, and below, for the truth and the healing.
Some things in life are pretty much black and white. Killing someone for no reason is bad. Teaching your baby how to smoke is bad. And society, uses terms like the Devil to make a long story short, and we get the picture.
Killing someone for no reason seems impossible to me. If you kill someone for no reason, can you even exist? If the person said: " I just felt like killing them," isn't that a reason? And what if this person is a sociopath? Are they BAD AND EVIL or are they BAD FOR SOCIETY? We decide, by the power VESTED IN US (by God who made in us In God's Likeness.)
Teaching your baby how to smoke COULD be a bad thing, depends on what you are smoking, WHY you smoke, who you are smoking with, and so on.
I'm not sure if people get the picture unfortunately. We have a lot of people running around claiming they are doing God's work and harming one another, based on so-called concrete and universal notions of the Devil supplied by immagery.
I don't think there is an issue with those being unitiated. I think that's elitist. Sure, people need to study and be wizened by their own efforts, but that knowledge unto itself is the trap, if I remember correctly about Eden!
I see Pluto as the healer, that Jesus could heal the sick by being unafraid to walk with the sickness and those who were sick, despite having been cast off from society.
Yeah, pluto is a healer too
Heal or hurt maybe?
It represents things like science, surgery, detective work and so on. Plutonian people can go straight to the heart of the matters. So not only bad no!
I think it depends on what aspects and placement your pluto is in to determine its energy for good or bad.
And addictions are represented by neptune if Im not mistaken, for substance abuse.
Modcleopatra
Banned
But I don't treat these stories about the Flood as fact or fiction, but simply something which is symbolic of power, in any of its forms, be it through an All-Knowing God Body, or otherwise, like an Electric Generator.
As for the Katrina victims, I would think that Weather Patterns could come from a variety of places, and the damage indicative of a number of problems, not simply with the People Living There.
I think these examples of huge destruction are the LAST RESORT. Something has got to change. It's like taking out your Gall Bladder because of a bad diet. The Gall Bladder isn't to blame- it's the choices that were made from an indirect source.
I think Pluto shows us something about our own Power and how it is the Devil which makes us believe we are not responsible to ourselves and what we do. There is much hatred in the world, and perhaps this hatred creates negative weather patterns directed at the unfortunate peoples who are the Angels in this case.
I also do not think the Creator is male nor will I ever. I don't care for how long it has been written down. Some things just aren't true because people have said they are.
Necessary evil? Or necessary neutralizer? Modifier? Displacer? I'm thinking of how cells in the human body have this organelles called lysosomes. They contain the material necessary for cell self-destruction. Is this evil, or just necessary?