Pluto - please help me
- Thread starter lejla
- Start date
I just realized that I suck in forum communication. I’m not used to forums and don't really know how to correct this, but I'll give my best 
Because I would really, really, really like to figure out what the hell is happening in my life and I can't do it alone. I'd like to understand it generally, but for now I'm specifically interested in what is happening in last I don't even count any more how many years. Let's say roughly from 2007 onwards, with a little break in 2010. The crucial information missing in my initial question is: The chart attached is my natal chart with current transits. I'm analyzing the chart for years now. And I fail all the time in putting the pieces into one picture. But this is not my "problem" right now. It is following:
There is one general feeling that I have for the period mentioned above (2007 - till now and looks like in the future) which is driving me crazy and which doesn't go away no matter what else happens or what I do or don't do: I am in prison. And I don't know how much longer I can endure in here. Slowly I'm out of strategies. I can’t escape, patience and waiting for miracles also doesn't seem to help. I have feeling that I have to do something while in here to unlock my way out: But what? It is like in a video game. You play your way through the game; sometimes you win, sometimes you lose but in the end you manage to find solutions and you go to the next level, until you suddenly out of the blue fall into this where I’m now – Through some abyss-like whole in the floor into nothing and whatever you try to get yourself back into the game doesn't work. I’m sorry if this all together sounds not serious or too metaphorical. I think in pictures and I don’t know how else to describe the situation. Additionally I’m really bad in reveling anything personal to other people. Hope someone would understand what I’m talking about and give me some insight.
I was studying Saturn in my chart first, because I thought that the “imprisonment” was connected with my Saturn return. I feel the sqare between Saturn and Uranus since I feel myself, so I figured that Saturn return would have this kind of effect on me. But I was wrong I think. In retrospective I can associate only good things with Saturn return – it forced me to
relocate (I didn’t want to, but I had no choice. I was literally pushing it to the point that I stayed with all my stuff on the street and had to drive. I love change and challenge, so this one was not dramatic at all. I actually enjoyed it very much. In the beginning; then I relocated again. I like changing places, I just this one time really wanted to stay. );
end bad relationship (I didn’t want to, I was struggling like idiot to stay in this really bad connection with a certain man; but I couldn’t do anything to keep the relationship going. Here I think for the first time I felt Pluto in my life – I was beating the dead horse with such idiotic devotion you can’t imagine and I didn’t want to let go. The other person was having the time of his life enjoying my pain and watching me crumble.);
change my vocation (I studied the wrong thing, working in wrong place, doing wrong job, going completely against myself professionally. But I was successful with it. I was one of the best, so I definitely didn’t want to give that up. In the end I was forced by the law and malfunctioning post office to give up. If Saturn was person I’d kiss him for that! If I’d managed to continue in the same direction I was heading back then, I assume that by now I’d already be frustrated, sick, depressed, overweight, single university professor studying in some basement archive some piece of art that doesn’t interest anybody, trying to teach young people about how important that **** is for world history and their career…) ;
develop neglected talents (my hobby became my profession, so I dance and teach dance instead of the above.);
become less arrogant / more tolerant, less intellectual, use my heart as well instead of using exclusively my brain all the time… generally have more compassion for other people…etc. I learned to be patient! I really did, I don’t have to make revolutions all of the time out of everything any more, I learned that some things are actually good as they are and some rules are not bad at all. Just leave them. And it all together felt like a “force” from “outside” is making me do all this; there was no other choice than a good choice. Even if at the moment I didn’t see it as such, in the end it turned out better for me, and I felt literally like “somebody who loves me more than I love myself is taking care of me”. I put quotation marks because that is literally what I was thinking then. So I assume that this actually is what Saturn return is all about, and that the imprisonment feeling that I have now maybe is not connected with Saturn alone. Maybe with something coming along with Saturn? Pluto? I don’t get it
The result of what I described should be: I should feel free now, right? Not the other way around!?!?!? So why am I not? I should be doing professionally what I “woke up” and developed under the influence of Saturn and I should be able to at least do it now and it would really help if I could at least be able to finically survive by doing it if I’m not successful whit it the way I was with the thing which was wrong for me, right?. So why am I not? Why I keep being fired, criticized, not paid, underpaid… in last 3 years every couple of months? Why does it happen that 35 years old I regularly every couple of months keep sliding into being (most of all) financially dependent of other people? Parents included. I was not dependant on anybody in any way ever. So what is this now? And being dependant is I assume a large part of what actually crates this “being in prison” feeling that I have and can’t solve. But where does it come from? And how do I end it? Or how and when does it end? One more thing that happened during Saturn return is that I learned to ask people for help. I realized that I don’t have to do everything by myself, and that all you have to do to get help is ask for it. That was a relief. It’s hard, but now at least I can do it sometimes, as you see. Is this process still going on? Is it that what gives me the “imprisonment” feeling?
I meditated about prison and where to look for it in a chart. I came up with 12th house. Uranus is transiting my 12th house right now. (I don’t know when this transit started – help please.) Is it that? Would that feel so strongly as imprisonment? Uranus is for sure part of the whole story. And I am very claustrophobic person. I mean as claustrophobic as being terrified to spend longer than 3 seconds in the same room with sun-beds and being passionate about paragliding; to the extent that I was denied access in the parachute jumping and skydiving course because my test results showed that I had “no fear”. So I decided scr*** your planes and jumping out of them, nobody can stop me to take an umbrella and jump from the next hill on my own risk. And I love it. I couldn’t live without it. But I am not sure that Uranus transiting the 12th house can really be connected with all the “restrictions” that I feel are keeping me still and quiet in one place making me crazy. So I figured, since during the relationship mentioned above I discovered the power of Pluto, that Pluto has something to do with my overall situation. That’s why I would like to figure out how Pluto operates in my chart. I would really appreciate if somebody could help me here. Please
Because I would really, really, really like to figure out what the hell is happening in my life and I can't do it alone. I'd like to understand it generally, but for now I'm specifically interested in what is happening in last I don't even count any more how many years. Let's say roughly from 2007 onwards, with a little break in 2010. The crucial information missing in my initial question is: The chart attached is my natal chart with current transits. I'm analyzing the chart for years now. And I fail all the time in putting the pieces into one picture. But this is not my "problem" right now. It is following:There is one general feeling that I have for the period mentioned above (2007 - till now and looks like in the future) which is driving me crazy and which doesn't go away no matter what else happens or what I do or don't do: I am in prison. And I don't know how much longer I can endure in here. Slowly I'm out of strategies. I can’t escape, patience and waiting for miracles also doesn't seem to help. I have feeling that I have to do something while in here to unlock my way out: But what? It is like in a video game. You play your way through the game; sometimes you win, sometimes you lose but in the end you manage to find solutions and you go to the next level, until you suddenly out of the blue fall into this where I’m now – Through some abyss-like whole in the floor into nothing and whatever you try to get yourself back into the game doesn't work. I’m sorry if this all together sounds not serious or too metaphorical. I think in pictures and I don’t know how else to describe the situation. Additionally I’m really bad in reveling anything personal to other people. Hope someone would understand what I’m talking about and give me some insight.
I was studying Saturn in my chart first, because I thought that the “imprisonment” was connected with my Saturn return. I feel the sqare between Saturn and Uranus since I feel myself, so I figured that Saturn return would have this kind of effect on me. But I was wrong I think. In retrospective I can associate only good things with Saturn return – it forced me to
relocate (I didn’t want to, but I had no choice. I was literally pushing it to the point that I stayed with all my stuff on the street and had to drive. I love change and challenge, so this one was not dramatic at all. I actually enjoyed it very much. In the beginning; then I relocated again. I like changing places, I just this one time really wanted to stay. );
end bad relationship (I didn’t want to, I was struggling like idiot to stay in this really bad connection with a certain man; but I couldn’t do anything to keep the relationship going. Here I think for the first time I felt Pluto in my life – I was beating the dead horse with such idiotic devotion you can’t imagine and I didn’t want to let go. The other person was having the time of his life enjoying my pain and watching me crumble.);
change my vocation (I studied the wrong thing, working in wrong place, doing wrong job, going completely against myself professionally. But I was successful with it. I was one of the best, so I definitely didn’t want to give that up. In the end I was forced by the law and malfunctioning post office to give up
. If Saturn was person I’d kiss him for that! If I’d managed to continue in the same direction I was heading back then, I assume that by now I’d already be frustrated, sick, depressed, overweight, single university professor studying in some basement archive some piece of art that doesn’t interest anybody, trying to teach young people about how important that **** is for world history and their career…) ;develop neglected talents (my hobby became my profession, so I dance and teach dance instead of the above.);
become less arrogant / more tolerant, less intellectual, use my heart as well instead of using exclusively my brain all the time… generally have more compassion for other people…etc. I learned to be patient! I really did, I don’t have to make revolutions all of the time out of everything any more, I learned that some things are actually good as they are and some rules are not bad at all. Just leave them. And it all together felt like a “force” from “outside” is making me do all this; there was no other choice than a good choice. Even if at the moment I didn’t see it as such, in the end it turned out better for me, and I felt literally like “somebody who loves me more than I love myself is taking care of me”. I put quotation marks because that is literally what I was thinking then. So I assume that this actually is what Saturn return is all about, and that the imprisonment feeling that I have now maybe is not connected with Saturn alone. Maybe with something coming along with Saturn? Pluto? I don’t get it
The result of what I described should be: I should feel free now, right? Not the other way around!?!?!? So why am I not? I should be doing professionally what I “woke up” and developed under the influence of Saturn and I should be able to at least do it now and it would really help if I could at least be able to finically survive by doing it if I’m not successful whit it the way I was with the thing which was wrong for me, right?. So why am I not? Why I keep being fired, criticized, not paid, underpaid… in last 3 years every couple of months? Why does it happen that 35 years old I regularly every couple of months keep sliding into being (most of all) financially dependent of other people? Parents included. I was not dependant on anybody in any way ever. So what is this now? And being dependant is I assume a large part of what actually crates this “being in prison” feeling that I have and can’t solve. But where does it come from? And how do I end it? Or how and when does it end? One more thing that happened during Saturn return is that I learned to ask people for help. I realized that I don’t have to do everything by myself, and that all you have to do to get help is ask for it. That was a relief. It’s hard, but now at least I can do it sometimes, as you see. Is this process still going on? Is it that what gives me the “imprisonment” feeling?
I meditated about prison and where to look for it in a chart. I came up with 12th house. Uranus is transiting my 12th house right now. (I don’t know when this transit started – help please.) Is it that? Would that feel so strongly as imprisonment? Uranus is for sure part of the whole story. And I am very claustrophobic person. I mean as claustrophobic as being terrified to spend longer than 3 seconds in the same room with sun-beds and being passionate about paragliding; to the extent that I was denied access in the parachute jumping and skydiving course because my test results showed that I had “no fear”. So I decided scr*** your planes and jumping out of them, nobody can stop me to take an umbrella and jump from the next hill on my own risk. And I love it. I couldn’t live without it. But I am not sure that Uranus transiting the 12th house can really be connected with all the “restrictions” that I feel are keeping me still and quiet in one place making me crazy. So I figured, since during the relationship mentioned above I discovered the power of Pluto, that Pluto has something to do with my overall situation. That’s why I would like to figure out how Pluto operates in my chart. I would really appreciate if somebody could help me here. Please
Peregrine_Moon
Well-known member
Well, let's see...
Saturn is not the problem. The notion that Saturn is a huge malefic is vastly overblown, in my opinion. Saturn teaches us discipline, moderation, to be prudent. We don't like these lessons, but that doesn't mean that they're wrong or bad for us. Most of the time, they're exactly what we need. Your sky diving instructor performed Saturn's function when he wouldn't let you go up in the plane. Without a healthy fear, you would be a danger to yourself and to others, and that's not good. Even if you find that you can manage something similar--the feeling of being unbound, aloft, above the earth--Saturn urges you not to take needless risks. Moreover, as a Virgo, with Taurus rising, you are an earth-rooted creature. The earth calls to you and the air is unnatural for you. (Water, however, is not. Earth and water relate to each other, giving location and definition to each other. Fire and air have a similar relationship, driving each other.)
Saturn is the ruler of Time and his purpose is to teach us to be wise. Wisdom comes slowly, usually through struggle, patience and reflection. I can see that your Saturn return was from October 2005 through July 2006, though you may have felt its effect for some time afterward. Your next Saturn return will be much briefer--in August 2035, just before your 59th birthday, if I've estimated your dates correctly. The second return is easier. Saturn has been through your horoscope once already and is just refining things this time around.
Pluto, on the other hand, rules the Underworld; he teaches us that we are immortal spirits. We must experience radical transformation, annihilation, destruction, followed by regeneration, rebirth, healing. Pluto will not protect us from danger and takes no heed of fear. Danger and fear are short-term, temporal conditions that Pluto scarcely notices, being so remote from us.
Pluto has been transiting through your 9th house since late January 2008 and will be there until late January 2016. This transit places enormous strain on 9th house matters--your higher education and studies, long-distance travel and your religious values. Meanwhile, since Pluto rules Scorpio and your 7th house, you feel these powerful stresses, as well, in your intimate relationships and business partnerships.
In late January 2016, Pluto will conjunct your Midheaven and enter your 10th house of career and public life. Pluto's conjunction with the MC may bring about many changes in your life, possibly in your relationship with one of your parents, and may include a dramatic change in your career path at the time or during its progress through the 10th house. Again, you will feel these things not only in terms of your profession, but they will also reverberate through your 7th house relationships, as well.
It's not just that Pluto causes us stress. It's that it forces us to re-make who we are in relation to wherever Pluto is active. These changes are often profound and may be disorienting, confusing and very difficult for us. But Pluto is inescapable. The only way to make the transit easier is to accept it. Fighting it will only make Pluto's actions harder and harsher.
Pluto has been transiting my first and second houses since 2000. The effect in my life has been almost cataclysmic. My entire self-understanding has been reformed, the way others experience me is also very different now. My financial security has been undermined and is being remade in new ways. My point is that Pluto's transit always results in major transformation. If you read other threads in this forum about Pluto and its transits, you'll read many similar stories.
Meanwhile, for you, Uranus, the planet of upheaval, revolution and surprises, entered your 12th house in late 2005. As you can see on your chart, your 12th (and 6th) house is enormous. You must have been born in a higher northern latitude--perhaps the northern US or Canada? The 12th house is a shadowy place, removed from the ordinary plane of life. It is where secrets, unfinished business and hidden enemies are located. Hospitals, convents, monasteries and prisons are there, too. In the 12th house, which is the natural home of Neptune, things are never what they seem to be.
Your sense of being in prison is an illusion, but a powerful one, even so. Aspects of yourself and your life seem to be hidden or inaccessible, even from you. You feel you need to break free from this place, perhaps because your 12th house is ruled by both Pisces and Aries and the ruler of Aries is Mars, who never accepts confinement with any kind of grace. Mars struggles to be released, there, yet may also feel some conflict with Uranus' interest in upheaval. While Mars is the god of warfare, his struggles are directed, purposeful and accord with Mars' own moral sensibility. Uranus overturns things just for the sake of doing it. Your sense of struggle was probably strongest when transiting Uranus was directly opposite natal Mars, but even when that aspect ended, the feelings remain, if to a lesser degree, because Uranus is still in Aries. It will leave the 12th house and cross the Ascendant into the first house in early May of 2019, and then have a retrograde period later that year.
Neptune is coming toward the end of its transit through your 11th house of friendships. It is in Pisces now, which it rules, and will enter your 12th house, its natural home, in March. You will probably feel a sense that things are settling down in some ways, after that. There will still be confusion, sometimes a lack of clarity, particularly about spiritual matters, symbolic meanings and interpretations. You may still feel impulsive (Uranus), but with even less understanding about what's causing it than you do now.
Things will get better, though. Jupiter is about to enter your second house. You should begin to feel better, to feel more valuable. Your financial position may improve considerably: under Jupiter's influence you may find a new job or receive a raise in pay. Why this happens may be unclear at the time, particularly when transiting Jupiter is opposite your natal Neptune, but Jupiter's expansion, good luck and fortune will last long after that contact with Neptune's fog.
Stay strong. You'll get through all of this!
Saturn is not the problem. The notion that Saturn is a huge malefic is vastly overblown, in my opinion. Saturn teaches us discipline, moderation, to be prudent. We don't like these lessons, but that doesn't mean that they're wrong or bad for us. Most of the time, they're exactly what we need. Your sky diving instructor performed Saturn's function when he wouldn't let you go up in the plane. Without a healthy fear, you would be a danger to yourself and to others, and that's not good. Even if you find that you can manage something similar--the feeling of being unbound, aloft, above the earth--Saturn urges you not to take needless risks. Moreover, as a Virgo, with Taurus rising, you are an earth-rooted creature. The earth calls to you and the air is unnatural for you. (Water, however, is not. Earth and water relate to each other, giving location and definition to each other. Fire and air have a similar relationship, driving each other.)
Saturn is the ruler of Time and his purpose is to teach us to be wise. Wisdom comes slowly, usually through struggle, patience and reflection. I can see that your Saturn return was from October 2005 through July 2006, though you may have felt its effect for some time afterward. Your next Saturn return will be much briefer--in August 2035, just before your 59th birthday, if I've estimated your dates correctly. The second return is easier. Saturn has been through your horoscope once already and is just refining things this time around.
Pluto, on the other hand, rules the Underworld; he teaches us that we are immortal spirits. We must experience radical transformation, annihilation, destruction, followed by regeneration, rebirth, healing. Pluto will not protect us from danger and takes no heed of fear. Danger and fear are short-term, temporal conditions that Pluto scarcely notices, being so remote from us.
Pluto has been transiting through your 9th house since late January 2008 and will be there until late January 2016. This transit places enormous strain on 9th house matters--your higher education and studies, long-distance travel and your religious values. Meanwhile, since Pluto rules Scorpio and your 7th house, you feel these powerful stresses, as well, in your intimate relationships and business partnerships.
In late January 2016, Pluto will conjunct your Midheaven and enter your 10th house of career and public life. Pluto's conjunction with the MC may bring about many changes in your life, possibly in your relationship with one of your parents, and may include a dramatic change in your career path at the time or during its progress through the 10th house. Again, you will feel these things not only in terms of your profession, but they will also reverberate through your 7th house relationships, as well.
It's not just that Pluto causes us stress. It's that it forces us to re-make who we are in relation to wherever Pluto is active. These changes are often profound and may be disorienting, confusing and very difficult for us. But Pluto is inescapable. The only way to make the transit easier is to accept it. Fighting it will only make Pluto's actions harder and harsher.
Pluto has been transiting my first and second houses since 2000. The effect in my life has been almost cataclysmic. My entire self-understanding has been reformed, the way others experience me is also very different now. My financial security has been undermined and is being remade in new ways. My point is that Pluto's transit always results in major transformation. If you read other threads in this forum about Pluto and its transits, you'll read many similar stories.
Meanwhile, for you, Uranus, the planet of upheaval, revolution and surprises, entered your 12th house in late 2005. As you can see on your chart, your 12th (and 6th) house is enormous. You must have been born in a higher northern latitude--perhaps the northern US or Canada? The 12th house is a shadowy place, removed from the ordinary plane of life. It is where secrets, unfinished business and hidden enemies are located. Hospitals, convents, monasteries and prisons are there, too. In the 12th house, which is the natural home of Neptune, things are never what they seem to be.
Your sense of being in prison is an illusion, but a powerful one, even so. Aspects of yourself and your life seem to be hidden or inaccessible, even from you. You feel you need to break free from this place, perhaps because your 12th house is ruled by both Pisces and Aries and the ruler of Aries is Mars, who never accepts confinement with any kind of grace. Mars struggles to be released, there, yet may also feel some conflict with Uranus' interest in upheaval. While Mars is the god of warfare, his struggles are directed, purposeful and accord with Mars' own moral sensibility. Uranus overturns things just for the sake of doing it. Your sense of struggle was probably strongest when transiting Uranus was directly opposite natal Mars, but even when that aspect ended, the feelings remain, if to a lesser degree, because Uranus is still in Aries. It will leave the 12th house and cross the Ascendant into the first house in early May of 2019, and then have a retrograde period later that year.
Neptune is coming toward the end of its transit through your 11th house of friendships. It is in Pisces now, which it rules, and will enter your 12th house, its natural home, in March. You will probably feel a sense that things are settling down in some ways, after that. There will still be confusion, sometimes a lack of clarity, particularly about spiritual matters, symbolic meanings and interpretations. You may still feel impulsive (Uranus), but with even less understanding about what's causing it than you do now.
Things will get better, though. Jupiter is about to enter your second house. You should begin to feel better, to feel more valuable. Your financial position may improve considerably: under Jupiter's influence you may find a new job or receive a raise in pay. Why this happens may be unclear at the time, particularly when transiting Jupiter is opposite your natal Neptune, but Jupiter's expansion, good luck and fortune will last long after that contact with Neptune's fog.
Stay strong. You'll get through all of this!
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Hi everyone!
This seems to be (a very long sorry) replay to Peregrine_Moon, but I would really like anybody with any idea to comment please.
Says one Virgo to another and off we go...
Thanks one more time for your replay, Ann. I think that just by your presence in this forum I started to think about Pluto. I’m deeply grateful for what you moved in me replaying to my question, to others and revealing about yourself. I was thinking about it for some time now, and I ended writing tons of text in last days. Many things are clearer for me now. Still I have absolutely no idea if what I put together makes much sense to anybody accept me, but it does help me see Pluto and myself clearer.
I was not really taking Pluto seriously in account while interpreting my chart because I sort of didn’t expect it to be powerful. Now how naïve is that!? What one usually reads about Pluto is – it is slow, like super slow, it is far away, there are discussions it might even not be a planet, some of the astrologers don’t consider it in charts, it is connected with darkness, decay, for a long time nobody on Earth even knew it existed… This all together made Pluto not very interesting. When I looked before at what in my natal situation Pluto is doing in my chart, I didn’t see nothing obviously scary. Trines, sextiles, conjunctions… So the process of me analyzing it was more or less: Aha, it’s a slow object somewhere really far away, it maybe even isn’t a planet so it has anyway not much impact, it is making trines and sextiles, that’s good, I’ll look at them later, conjunctions hm, missed the Moon (sharply, but it did! huh! yes! lucky me!), that doesn’t look remarkably bad. Square with MC. Ok not a candy shop and happy-easy-going but nothing spectacularly bad again. I completely omitted to connect Pluto in any way with my relationships. I ignored it being in Libra, because “it’s a generational thing”. (And it really is. Just a short digression here: You can even have a look in this forum for my previous posts and you will see Pluto in Libra “operating”. I’m part of the generation which sometimes asks “strange” questions about our relationships because we don’t consider them to be strange. We are from one side so sensitive about “happily ever after” and from the other so used to divorces, cheating partners in love relationships and all that stuff (pornography included) that some of us came to the point where we ask “Is my loved one cheating on me?” with the same interest as if we asked “Is tomorrow going to rain?”.)
Further, I overlooked Pluto ruling Scorpio, Scorpio ruling my seventh house, because in my chart Pluto is in 6th house and what is more it’s the only planet in that chart that really is for 100% somewhere, clearly in one sign and one house. So I figured that Pluto has exclusively something to do with my work, and concluded: Aha so Pluto is the one responsible for my obsessions, drives and powers in connection with how I do my stuff. Nice to know. I don’t see any need to change that anyway, it is not causing me (! ) much trouble. And even if I tried to change it, there is little chance I could really do it. If I’m working on something, I can try to go to sleep and continue tomorrow. But I know that it won’t work. So I can stare at the ceiling the whole night working anyway in my head, or I can keep going until I finish. Or drop. Or lose interest. Whichever comes first. All that made me think: Pluto = not especially important in my life.
Additionally I’m really bad in mathematics. All my pondering about geometry in a chart ended up being rocket science, no matter how hard I tried. And on top of it all I have trouble seeing beyond the two dimensionality of a chart drawing. So along with discovering that I’d make a lousy astrologer, I discovered another approach, and tried to “decipher” my chart not from the paper but from the mythology side along with trying to get a picture of the night sky and constellations on it. This helped, and brought me a relief because this way I can stick with looking at the sky and my overall “panta rhei” outlook on everything. It is easier for me to see what is going on in a chart if I see it moving and use metaphors, archetypes and so on, instead of using mathematical tools and the idea that a chart is a “snapshot” which I especially don’t like at all for so many reasons. But looking at my “natal situation” this way before, I still didn’t take Pluto seriously in consideration.
Sometimes for me just one word is enough, and universes open. I don’t know if this is in any way special, or if everybody functions like that, or if I’m crazy because of that, but I am so grateful for this “moments of enlightenment” that I get sometimes from other people, very often from complete strangers who I meet by chance and very often never see again. It’s usually something other people say (not necessarily even directly to me) just “by the way”. Sometimes it is not even that much, sometimes I just feel what somebody else is thinking, and I think “You’re right!”. And sometimes it is not even so much, sometimes it is just somebody’s sheer presence in “my space” that answers my questions. This time the “kick” was right in the beginning of your replay Ann, before you even started writing directly about Pluto.
I actually didn’t really come much further than that in reading what else you wrote. Not because I’m rude, or because due to idiotic stuff one can read about Virgo nowadays I have difficulties seeing Virgo in me (Or anybody else for that respect. I was not much in mental hospitals lately, so maybe that’s why I don’t get to see those compulsive cleaners, criticizers, workaholics and stuff.), but because you gave me a picture, a symbol, a metaphor which immediately opened my eyes. And in front of me popped The ultimate Earth-rooted Creature of the mythology herself: Persefone. I looked at my own words one more time, and I realized that in my initial post here I actually literally described and ancient myth of the “Rape of Persefone”
Now, how deep is the sub-cautiousness really and how far back in the past can it reach? The myth of the “Rape of Persefone” is older than Greek mythology; it was adopted to it from earlier times. In 21st century the story is exactly the same, the material world around it is completely different, and that's the only difference. Today „It is like in a video game. (…) until you suddenly out of the blue fall into this where I’m now – Through some abyss-like hole in the floor into nothing and whatever you try to get yourself back into the game doesn't work.“.
This discovery really “stroke” me. And as I said, I ended up writing tons of text. Actually I’m on page 9 right now… So I’m not going to post my initial replay here, because it’s way too long already and still very much “in progress”, actually I even didn’t really come to Pluto in it; but I would like you Ann to know that you did a great thing and that I appreciate it more than I can say.
I see also where I have to look when I’m done with (first stage) Pluto. Uranus, well, this is my feeling for now, is my friend. I get emotional in protecting “my” Uranus. Which probably is how I came to the idea that Uranus would be trapped in my 12th house, and all my drama would be there to look for. And all my “action” should be put in “rescuing” Uranus so I could have all my impulsiveness, revolutions, surprises and sudden changes back. How naïve is that!? The truth is, I’m so used to “my” Uranus traits, they are so much “me” that I actually have no idea how to function without them. If something is about to happen in a calculated, planned and slow manner in my life, I either don’t enjoy it or just simply have a feeling that “something is wrong”. If the bomb suddenly doesn’t fall and revolution follows, I usually don’t really understand what is going on. Patience was a really big challenge for me as I mentioned before. And it still is sometimes.
Neptune is another issue for me, similar to Pluto. Understanding Neptune is probably going to be a similar challenge. My vanity is the thing which doesn’t want to even come close to those two as I would so much like that none of them had something to do with me.
I’ll have to think about that. I’ll have to come back to that. (In couple of years… ). For now I didn’t even come close to Neptune in my chart. (If anybody can have a look, that would be great. At the moment I tend not to think that my “sense of being in prison is an illusion”. Because of the parallels with the Persefone-myth. If I read the parallels right it is pretty much a real thing, which in our psychology-obsessed modern world still is called in beautiful picturesque way: “growing up”. (Gosh do I dislike it! And wish it would be an illusion, so I can play Tinkerbelle in “my” 5th house forever.) The underworld and my sense of being there is probably not an illusion, but my feeling of helplessness while I’m in here might be an illusion, since (as you see) I’m still approaching the situation in a very childish way. Or I was, until I met you Ann 
It is a very new feeling to me this helplessness, and I don’t like it one bit. That I feel I need to break free from this place where I got “through the hole in the floor” is probably because it is not really good place to be in. But the methods I used in trying to break free were just plain stupid. And that is what keeps me trapped in here. I think (after spending days thinking more or less about nothing else but that).
As Hades grabbed Persefone to trap her in underworld, she was screaming like crazy. Well, screaming was probably the best thing she could think of. I can imagine her kicking him, and doing all the other girly stuff. It didn’t help her a bit at first, as nothing helped me or anybody else who got in Hades’ arms. But eventually: “And so long as she, the goddess, yet beheld earth and starry heaven and the strong-flowing sea where fishes shoal, and the rays of the sun, and still hoped to see her dear mother and the tribes of the eternal gods, so long hope clamed her great heart for all her trouble . . . and the heights of the mountains and the depths of the sea ran with her immortal voice : and her queenly mother heard her.”. Happy End finally? Not really. But, who is Persefones “queenly mother” who heard her screaming? It’s Demetra. It’s the Virgo herself. And she got really pissed off, by the way when she found out what happened to her child when she was away. Yes all the visible and invisible sky with all the geometry and mathematics is playing their part in the story, but ultimately, at the end of the myth she, Demetra, the Virgo herself, is the one coming with the final solution.
I don’ know if you have any idea what you did to me Ann. I also don’t have a clue if I can play in this way with astrology, but to me right now it makes sense. I might have a clue what you did, however crazy it might sound, and instead of copying here my huge analysis of just one aspect in my chart, ans since this is already a lot of text, I would just quickly like to check my sanity in your chart
Hope you don’t mind.
In another place in this forum you are writing in one of your posts that you have Sun conjunct Pluto conjunct Mercury which is in Leo in 9th house. That would mean the Sun – Pluto conjunction in your chart “takes place” on the cusp between 9th and 10th house? What all the astrology literature I came across would describe as Sun in Virgo in 10th house. What I see is Virgo-Sun in the Midheaven = Sun at its highest point on the horizon, in full glory and power being Virgo. While the plot of the “Rape of Persefone” in my chart begins at the very beginning of the myth, the story of your chart seams to start at the beginning of the end of the myth – not really at, but slightly before climax; or the most important stage of the plot, or the highest point in the sky, or the top of the chart, or not really in the middle but rather a bit closer to the cusp of 10th house, or… you name it. At first I thought that the difference between “your” and “my” Persefone would simply mean just two different stages of life, since you wrote that you are 53 (a real deal Demetra). But there is so much more. This constellation is about the age difference all right, but we are talking here about much, much more than couple of decades. At the moment of my birth Hades was still lurking after some souls down under, he maybe was at the point of making a wish to get himself a wife, or not even that. In your chart Sun-Virgo “conjuncts” (joins) Pluto in the Midheaven. You were not, like me, born little spoiled daughter of Zeus and Demetra who gets kidnapped from Hades and screams around hysterically to get rid of him and his underworld because she a) doesn’t like him, b) doesn’t like him, c) doesn’t like him, d) doesn’t like this hole of his and doesn’t that creep see that she is a princess, how did he even come to this stupid idea to kidnap her, “I mean helloooo, the guy is ugly. And old!” … My issues were your issues couple of millions of years ago. You came to this place here already with the solution, as what becomes of the princess after the “rape”. You were born as queen Persefone herself; as the one that actually gets worshiped in ancient times. The one for whom the temples were built and rites and mysteries performed. The spouse of Hades, queen of the underworld, goddess of immortality, whose mother is the highest goddess of all, Demetra the “lady of the golden sword and glorious fruits” and whose father is Zeus the highest god of all “who is most high and excellent”. In Greek mythology Persefone is the one who receives the souls in the underworld. Pluto drags them in there and takes great care that they don’t escape, and then sees to gets some more of them in; Persefone is the one who, believe it or not offers love and acceptance in the underworld.
She is the one who welcomes the souls of mortals in that dreadful place with – hope. Saying something like
L
This seems to be (a very long
sorry) replay to Peregrine_Moon, but I would really like anybody with any idea to comment please.Says one Virgo to another and off we go...
Thanks one more time for your replay, Ann. I think that just by your presence in this forum I started to think about Pluto. I’m deeply grateful for what you moved in me replaying to my question, to others and revealing about yourself. I was thinking about it for some time now, and I ended writing tons of text in last days. Many things are clearer for me now. Still I have absolutely no idea if what I put together makes much sense to anybody accept me, but it does help me see Pluto and myself clearer.
I was not really taking Pluto seriously in account while interpreting my chart because I sort of didn’t expect it to be powerful. Now how naïve is that!? What one usually reads about Pluto is – it is slow, like super slow, it is far away, there are discussions it might even not be a planet, some of the astrologers don’t consider it in charts, it is connected with darkness, decay, for a long time nobody on Earth even knew it existed… This all together made Pluto not very interesting. When I looked before at what in my natal situation Pluto is doing in my chart, I didn’t see nothing obviously scary. Trines, sextiles, conjunctions… So the process of me analyzing it was more or less: Aha, it’s a slow object somewhere really far away, it maybe even isn’t a planet so it has anyway not much impact, it is making trines and sextiles, that’s good, I’ll look at them later, conjunctions hm, missed the Moon (sharply, but it did! huh! yes! lucky me!), that doesn’t look remarkably bad. Square with MC. Ok not a candy shop and happy-easy-going but nothing spectacularly bad again. I completely omitted to connect Pluto in any way with my relationships. I ignored it being in Libra, because “it’s a generational thing”. (And it really is. Just a short digression here: You can even have a look in this forum for my previous posts and you will see Pluto in Libra “operating”. I’m part of the generation which sometimes asks “strange” questions about our relationships because we don’t consider them to be strange. We are from one side so sensitive about “happily ever after” and from the other so used to divorces, cheating partners in love relationships and all that stuff (pornography included) that some of us came to the point where we ask “Is my loved one cheating on me?” with the same interest as if we asked “Is tomorrow going to rain?”.)
Further, I overlooked Pluto ruling Scorpio, Scorpio ruling my seventh house, because in my chart Pluto is in 6th house and what is more it’s the only planet in that chart that really is for 100% somewhere, clearly in one sign and one house. So I figured that Pluto has exclusively something to do with my work, and concluded: Aha so Pluto is the one responsible for my obsessions, drives and powers in connection with how I do my stuff. Nice to know. I don’t see any need to change that anyway, it is not causing me (!
) much trouble. And even if I tried to change it, there is little chance I could really do it. If I’m working on something, I can try to go to sleep and continue tomorrow. But I know that it won’t work. So I can stare at the ceiling the whole night working anyway in my head, or I can keep going until I finish. Or drop. Or lose interest. Whichever comes first. All that made me think: Pluto = not especially important in my life.Additionally I’m really bad in mathematics. All my pondering about geometry in a chart ended up being rocket science, no matter how hard I tried. And on top of it all I have trouble seeing beyond the two dimensionality of a chart drawing. So along with discovering that I’d make a lousy astrologer, I discovered another approach, and tried to “decipher” my chart not from the paper but from the mythology side along with trying to get a picture of the night sky and constellations on it. This helped, and brought me a relief because this way I can stick with looking at the sky and my overall “panta rhei” outlook on everything. It is easier for me to see what is going on in a chart if I see it moving and use metaphors, archetypes and so on, instead of using mathematical tools and the idea that a chart is a “snapshot” which I especially don’t like at all for so many reasons. But looking at my “natal situation” this way before, I still didn’t take Pluto seriously in consideration.
Sometimes for me just one word is enough, and universes open. I don’t know if this is in any way special, or if everybody functions like that, or if I’m crazy because of that, but I am so grateful for this “moments of enlightenment” that I get sometimes from other people, very often from complete strangers who I meet by chance and very often never see again. It’s usually something other people say (not necessarily even directly to me) just “by the way”. Sometimes it is not even that much, sometimes I just feel what somebody else is thinking, and I think “You’re right!”. And sometimes it is not even so much, sometimes it is just somebody’s sheer presence in “my space” that answers my questions. This time the “kick” was right in the beginning of your replay Ann, before you even started writing directly about Pluto.
I actually didn’t really come much further than that in reading what else you wrote. Not because I’m rude, or because due to idiotic stuff one can read about Virgo nowadays I have difficulties seeing Virgo in me (Or anybody else for that respect. I was not much in mental hospitals lately, so maybe that’s why I don’t get to see those compulsive cleaners, criticizers, workaholics and stuff.), but because you gave me a picture, a symbol, a metaphor which immediately opened my eyes. And in front of me popped The ultimate Earth-rooted Creature of the mythology herself: Persefone. I looked at my own words one more time, and I realized that in my initial post here I actually literally described and ancient myth of the “Rape of Persefone”
Now, how deep is the sub-cautiousness really and how far back in the past can it reach? The myth of the “Rape of Persefone” is older than Greek mythology; it was adopted to it from earlier times. In 21st century the story is exactly the same, the material world around it is completely different, and that's the only difference. Today „It is like in a video game. (…) until you suddenly out of the blue fall into this where I’m now – Through some abyss-like hole in the floor into nothing and whatever you try to get yourself back into the game doesn't work.“.
This discovery really “stroke” me. And as I said, I ended up writing tons of text. Actually I’m on page 9 right now… So I’m not going to post my initial replay here, because it’s way too long already and still very much “in progress”, actually I even didn’t really come to Pluto in it; but I would like you Ann to know that you did a great thing and that I appreciate it more than I can say.
I see also where I have to look when I’m done with (first stage) Pluto. Uranus, well, this is my feeling for now, is my friend. I get emotional in protecting “my” Uranus. Which probably is how I came to the idea that Uranus would be trapped in my 12th house, and all my drama would be there to look for. And all my “action” should be put in “rescuing” Uranus so I could have all my impulsiveness, revolutions, surprises and sudden changes back.
How naïve is that!? The truth is, I’m so used to “my” Uranus traits, they are so much “me” that I actually have no idea how to function without them. If something is about to happen in a calculated, planned and slow manner in my life, I either don’t enjoy it or just simply have a feeling that “something is wrong”. If the bomb suddenly doesn’t fall and revolution follows, I usually don’t really understand what is going on. Patience was a really big challenge for me as I mentioned before. And it still is sometimes.Neptune is another issue for me, similar to Pluto. Understanding Neptune is probably going to be a similar challenge. My vanity is the thing which doesn’t want to even come close to those two as I would so much like that none of them had something to do with me.
I’ll have to think about that. I’ll have to come back to that. (In couple of years…
). For now I didn’t even come close to Neptune in my chart. (If anybody can have a look, that would be great. At the moment I tend not to think that my “sense of being in prison is an illusion”. Because of the parallels with the Persefone-myth. If I read the parallels right it is pretty much a real thing, which in our psychology-obsessed modern world still is called in beautiful picturesque way: “growing up”. (Gosh do I dislike it! And wish it would be an illusion, so I can play Tinkerbelle in “my” 5th house forever.) The underworld and my sense of being there is probably not an illusion, but my feeling of helplessness while I’m in here might be an illusion, since (as you see) I’m still approaching the situation in a very childish way. Or I was, until I met you Ann It is a very new feeling to me this helplessness, and I don’t like it one bit. That I feel I need to break free from this place where I got “through the hole in the floor” is probably because it is not really good place to be in. But the methods I used in trying to break free were just plain stupid. And that is what keeps me trapped in here. I think (after spending days thinking more or less about nothing else but that). As Hades grabbed Persefone to trap her in underworld, she was screaming like crazy. Well, screaming was probably the best thing she could think of. I can imagine her kicking him, and doing all the other girly stuff. It didn’t help her a bit at first, as nothing helped me or anybody else who got in Hades’ arms. But eventually: “And so long as she, the goddess, yet beheld earth and starry heaven and the strong-flowing sea where fishes shoal, and the rays of the sun, and still hoped to see her dear mother and the tribes of the eternal gods, so long hope clamed her great heart for all her trouble . . . and the heights of the mountains and the depths of the sea ran with her immortal voice : and her queenly mother heard her.”. Happy End finally? Not really. But, who is Persefones “queenly mother” who heard her screaming? It’s Demetra. It’s the Virgo herself. And she got really pissed off, by the way when she found out what happened to her child when she was away. Yes all the visible and invisible sky with all the geometry and mathematics is playing their part in the story, but ultimately, at the end of the myth she, Demetra, the Virgo herself, is the one coming with the final solution.
I don’ know if you have any idea what you did to me Ann. I also don’t have a clue if I can play in this way with astrology, but to me right now it makes sense. I might have a clue what you did, however crazy it might sound, and instead of copying here my huge analysis of just one aspect in my chart, ans since this is already a lot of text, I would just quickly like to check my sanity in your chart
Hope you don’t mind.In another place in this forum you are writing in one of your posts that you have Sun conjunct Pluto conjunct Mercury which is in Leo in 9th house. That would mean the Sun – Pluto conjunction in your chart “takes place” on the cusp between 9th and 10th house? What all the astrology literature I came across would describe as Sun in Virgo in 10th house. What I see is Virgo-Sun in the Midheaven = Sun at its highest point on the horizon, in full glory and power being Virgo. While the plot of the “Rape of Persefone” in my chart begins at the very beginning of the myth, the story of your chart seams to start at the beginning of the end of the myth – not really at, but slightly before climax; or the most important stage of the plot, or the highest point in the sky, or the top of the chart, or not really in the middle but rather a bit closer to the cusp of 10th house, or… you name it. At first I thought that the difference between “your” and “my” Persefone would simply mean just two different stages of life, since you wrote that you are 53 (a real deal Demetra). But there is so much more. This constellation is about the age difference all right, but we are talking here about much, much more than couple of decades. At the moment of my birth Hades was still lurking after some souls down under, he maybe was at the point of making a wish to get himself a wife, or not even that. In your chart Sun-Virgo “conjuncts” (joins) Pluto in the Midheaven. You were not, like me, born little spoiled daughter of Zeus and Demetra who gets kidnapped from Hades and screams around hysterically to get rid of him and his underworld because she a) doesn’t like him, b) doesn’t like him, c) doesn’t like him, d) doesn’t like this hole of his and doesn’t that creep see that she is a princess, how did he even come to this stupid idea to kidnap her, “I mean helloooo, the guy is ugly. And old!” … My issues were your issues couple of millions of years ago. You came to this place here already with the solution, as what becomes of the princess after the “rape”. You were born as queen Persefone herself; as the one that actually gets worshiped in ancient times. The one for whom the temples were built and rites and mysteries performed. The spouse of Hades, queen of the underworld, goddess of immortality, whose mother is the highest goddess of all, Demetra the “lady of the golden sword and glorious fruits” and whose father is Zeus the highest god of all “who is most high and excellent”. In Greek mythology Persefone is the one who receives the souls in the underworld. Pluto drags them in there and takes great care that they don’t escape, and then sees to gets some more of them in; Persefone is the one who, believe it or not offers love and acceptance in the underworld.
She is the one who welcomes the souls of mortals in that dreadful place with – hope. Saying something like
L
Ion
Well-known member
Pluto is the friend of your 'archetype' (Virgo) in your birth chart.
Pluto is working through Neptune and Jupiter to 'force' you into adopting and expressing the exalted attributes of Virgo.
Read a list of all of the qualities of Virgo (not the downside) and 'make them your own' and Pluto will assist you greatly in making personal transformation.
best regards,
Ion
Ion
Well-known member
Positive characteristics or personality traits of Virgo
Work with precision
Strong intellect and intelligence
Bestowed with eloquence
love of knowledge
High analyzing skills yet truly practical
An understanding attitude
Natural beauty and charm
Deeply emotional inside
Humanitarian and generous
Truly loving and caring
Best companions
Friendly approach
True to words
Effective advisers
Helping and supportive at core
Exceedingly giving in relations
Highly adaptable and flexible
Expressive
Good at taste
Endowed with creativity
Wise and dignified
Innovative attitude
Hard working
Trustworthy
Its OK to love yourself ! Virgo has a lot going for her .
best regards, again !
Ion
Peregrine_Moon
Well-known member
Lejla, you've written a lot--and very lyrically, too!--and I must ponder for a bit before responding.
I think you're onto some things, though and I'm glad to have been of some help.
Me, Demetra? In a way, perhaps. She has that "Great Mother" quality that I think is part of what Virgo is to be. If we think of Vigo's down-side--nit-picking, critical, demanding order, getting lost in the details at the expense of the whole, sometimes... mothers do that! I know I did, and do, with my children, even though they're not little ones any more.
I ignored Pluto, or didn't give him much credit for a long time, too. Pluto is hard to see. But I don't give a lot of credence to those who disregard the outer planets because they're "new" or because Pluto, in particular, may not "really" be a planet. Why? We can retroject Pluto astrologically and see it functioning long before we even know it was there. And far away doesn't mean disinterested or uninvolved, does it? Slow-moving tends to mean inexorable, profoundly enduring, not to be dismissed, unlike, say... Mercury, zipping around so fast and even going backwards so often! Or the Moon, changing moods all the time....
Anyway, I'm going to ponder and mull over Persephone, Demetra and Pluto for a bit. I'll write again later.
Just know that you didn't really "forget" or ignore Pluto--far from it! If you identified so strongly with Persephone, then you were entirely within his power, and possibly his thrall, too. Persephone's mate is Pluto. Everything, everyone that casts a bright light also has a very dark shadow, too....
I think you're onto some things, though and I'm glad to have been of some help.
Me, Demetra? In a way, perhaps. She has that "Great Mother" quality that I think is part of what Virgo is to be. If we think of Vigo's down-side--nit-picking, critical, demanding order, getting lost in the details at the expense of the whole, sometimes... mothers do that! I know I did, and do, with my children, even though they're not little ones any more.
I ignored Pluto, or didn't give him much credit for a long time, too. Pluto is hard to see. But I don't give a lot of credence to those who disregard the outer planets because they're "new" or because Pluto, in particular, may not "really" be a planet. Why? We can retroject Pluto astrologically and see it functioning long before we even know it was there. And far away doesn't mean disinterested or uninvolved, does it? Slow-moving tends to mean inexorable, profoundly enduring, not to be dismissed, unlike, say... Mercury, zipping around so fast and even going backwards so often! Or the Moon, changing moods all the time....
Anyway, I'm going to ponder and mull over Persephone, Demetra and Pluto for a bit. I'll write again later.
Just know that you didn't really "forget" or ignore Pluto--far from it! If you identified so strongly with Persephone, then you were entirely within his power, and possibly his thrall, too. Persephone's mate is Pluto. Everything, everyone that casts a bright light also has a very dark shadow, too....
Thanks for the list Ion, you know that it's going to be helpful
But! I just discovered your web page. Astroarcheology! Looks like I'm not so crazy after all!? I absolutely love your sentence "After the invention of the lens, the astrological model of the universe began to erode. Astrology with all of its transcendent mythology was pushed to the side by a new astronomy created by stargazers with technology. Ever since that time Western Man has been lost in space, disconnected from the Earth and without a viable creation myth.". This is exactly what annoys me in astrology the way I can approach it reading texts on internet and elsewhere - there is so much pseudo physics and pseudo psychology out there and almost nothing real. It's at least 5 dimensional thing this "natal chart", and we look at it in so 2 dimensional way...
I will have a close look at your page for sure. Some time ago I wrote an article about Renaissance "medicus" Cardano who among other things got in big trouble with church in his time for making a horoscope of Jesus. This destroyed his career and reputation almost completely in the end although he managed to save his head. You can probably google him (Gerolamo Cardano). Back in 2003 or so there were not many of his texts translated, I don't know how is the situation now. I was back then interested in his medical work, so the only thing I really remember is that in his theory Jesus' Sun sign would be Virgo. Anyway, I had a very brief look at your page and I'm already amazed by the term Astroarcheology and by the way how your chart looks like. Just recently I wrote to somebody who annoyed me with her pseudo physical blahblah about "energies" in a chart "Every child in the meantime knows that if you want to draw something from the sky and want to be taken seriously you should draw something a bit more elliptical than a natal chart. Draw me an ellipse, divide it in degrees, houses an all, and I will go beyond my limits to learn mathematics.". You got me Ion!
1:0 for you I have to laugh at myself now. Thanks for the ellipse! Looks like I'll have to learn mathematics in the end Adopting and expressing the exalted attributes of Virgo is exactly the point of my pages and pages of analysis in last days.
So it's possible to say it simple and concise in one sentence!? Good to know! It's exactly the key Ann gave me by making me see the "earth-rooted creature". In antique Greek art young Persefone is literally sometimes depicted as plant-like girl growing from the ground. That was the image that stroke me. That is way I wrote before:
"Yes all the visible and invisible sky with all the geometry and mathematics is playing their part in the story, but ultimately, at the end of the myth she, Demetra, the Virgo herself, is the one coming with the final solution."
OK, I got the key, now how the hell does the lock function!?
Let me check my list.Regards 2U2, Ion
L
Oh yes! And what for one!
Demetra is not really the "Great Mother". The ultimate "Great Mother", the “thing” we today call "Mother Earth" is Demetras grandmother Gaya (or Gaea). Demetra is "the lady of the golden sword and glorious fruits", the „fair haired earth goddess who blesses all phases of the harvest. She walks the furrowed fields dressed in green and displays her moods with feast and famine...". Point. She is sister of Zeus (Jupiter), Hades (Pluto) and Poseidon (Neptun). In ancient Greek sacred practices she is inseparable from Persefone. They were always celebrated together. If we in our modern world would somehow manage to see beyond our, with false morality overloaded (from Christianity so deeply influenced) twisted idea of family connections, it would be much easier to understand what mythology is passing to us. Modern science helps though. Mathematically seen your mother is somebody from whom you got your DNA, you brother is somebody who got the same type of DNA from the same "source", you daughter is somebody who you create to pass this DNA to future... Ancient civilizations were extremely intelligent, it's our material tools and vanity that sometimes hinder us in seeing what is going on. We depend much too much on the material aspect of "being" and are sacrificing all the other "elements". Demetra (Virgo) is somebody who has the same type of DNA as Zeus (Jupiter), Hades (Pluto) and Poseidon (Neptune). She gives birth to a child that she conceived with her brother Zeus (Jupiter). The child is a girl. And that is the most emphasized information we get from mythology about her at first. Whatever else she might be or become, she is first and most of all: a girl. She has two names Persefone and Kore. Kore literally means "girl", maiden if you want to have it more medievalish, or virgin if you want to have it more modern, or Virgo if you want to have it astrologically. Kore and her mother Demetra share the same DNA, the same "y" chromosome - deep down at their very core they are both one and the same = female = Virgo. Now while Kore is a girl, pure and "untouched", her mother Demetra is not first and most of all her mother, she is first and most of all women, who gave birth to a child. (A real deal Demetra I told you
). How does her little princess become a woman? In the most dreadful way any woman can imagine - she gets "raped". From somebody with the same DNA under approval of somebody with the same DNA! But how does her mother Demetra become a woman? By conceiving a princess with somebody who carries the same DNA, and not just any of her brothers, but with the highest of them, with the one “who is most high and excellent“, with Zeus (Jupiter). What did you say your rising sing is? Just checking. I'm really curious where Jupiter is in your chart, by the way. We don’t know absolutely anything about Demetra before she had sex with her brother Jupiter. The girl Demetra doesn’t exist. She = you, my lady of golden sword came to this funky blue planet here holding already this Excalibur of yours in your hands right at the beginning of the harvest season (your birthday is in August you said) ready to collect the glorious fruits. Demetras “down side” is not
It is in another, more modern “myth”. It’s Cinderella. And I know that you know, just as probably any other “Virgo” knows, that our weakness is in our readiness to be somebody’s Cinderella. The stuff you counted above is not in our nature, it is the stuff others project on us because they have no idea what do with our powers. Right Ion?
The down side of Demetra is something you, and me, and any Virgo I believe experience sometimes in our life. It’s what happens in the myth after Demetra finds out what her brothers did to her child. After the disappearance of Persefone, Demetra began to look high and low for her. She became so distraught, that she wandered the earth for nine days; denying herself all forms of food, drink, or comfort. She was seen holding a burning torch in each hand. Basically, she had renounced her divine functions as a goddess of vegetation and fruitfulness. Now, how familiar does that sound!?
What I think happens in our charts is – my task is to grow from Persefone –Kore to Persefone the Queen of the Underworld and get loud enough to get my Demetra to hear me screaming; your task is to rescue Persefone the Queen of the Underworld and rejoin with here “above the ground” for the following “third of the year”. Which I think you did. Around the year 2 000 AD this time.
I couldn’t resist answering this immediately… I’ll be back to read the rest.
:*
I came back for a moment... Speechless. There was a very, very old greeting in Bosnia (Europe, one of the ex Yugoslavian states) that was used when one wanted to show special respect to someone for their achievements. With the tip of the fingers of your right hand you touch first your chin, then your lips and finally your forehead. The meaning of it might be explained in a saying which translates more or less like: "This should be kissed and put on the forehead." This ancient arabic costume is called "to make someone a teman" and it is not in use any more. Pity, because when someone lives me so speechless like you did Ion, I would like to have a chance to do at least something to show my respect. And the choreography of "teman" would suit me right now just perfect.
I'm staring at your "Solomon.gif"... And I'm just staring. Since hours and hours now. I try to move on, to read something... But I can't... I don't know if I have ever seen anything so beautiful and perfect...
(And I have seen, studied and stand speechless in front of almost all remarkable peaces of art...) What you did is just unbelievable.
I make you a teman Ion.
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