Well or Poorly Placed?

Oddity said:

He uses the outer planets quite heavily (in my view), albeit not as sign rulers.

And he did lampoon some modern astrology in The Real Astrology. I found it hilarious, but some people doubtless would take offence. The main purpose of the book, and where I believe it succeeded, is showing what traditional astrology is about, not in-depth, but you do get a good sense of it.

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Yup, while the comments are often quite funny, the book does provide an overview of the basic concepts of traditional astrology and its different branches.

To sum up the book contains:

- Brief history of astrology
- Explanation on concepts in the traditional way (dignity, aspects, houses, etc).
- Introduction to every branch of astrology (natal, horary, elective, mundane)
- Few chapters dedicated to Frawley's own method for chart reading (provided as a simple example on how to apply some of the concepts described in the book).

To be honest, the book is really a must for anyone who is transitioning from modern astrology into traditional, because what it does best is to explain the key differences between both systems.

Oddity said:

I'm pretty sure I didn't say that squares are benefic - they aren't.

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You didn't say that, Oddity. You just used the phrase "malefic trine," and that prompted me to ask if squares could be benefic. Up to that point, my understanding had been that trines and sextiles are always benefic, squares and oppositions malefic... so the "malefic trine" wording was what prompted me to ask. I thought I might be encountering a concept that all you traditional astrologers knew.

Oddity said:

You will not learn traditional astrology (if that's the aim) from Internet forums - books are good. A good teacher is even better.

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My current aim isn't to learn traditional astrology, just understand what you trads are talking about when we post in the same threads. You (and some of the other trads on here) have made some replies to me that I really didn't understand because they were so full of traditional astrology lingo, and because I didn't understand, I couldn't make any meaningful response. I'd like to at least know enough to make meaningful responses, so I made that halting post about one particular set of definitions.

I suppose I might have to learn traditional astrology to really understand it. But I have other priorities right now, other demands on my time and energy, so following along on the forum is really what I can do at the moment.

Dirius said:

As Cypocryphy stated, Oddity was reffering to a trine from a very Malefic planet (Mars placed in Taurus), not that the trine "is malefic".

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The trine was to Mars from a planet in Taurus, not from Mars. Just a detail correction.

Dirius said:

I would like to add something interesting on this topic, from Hellenistic sources. The concept of benefic or malefic is established through the temperamental nature of the planets themselves.>


a) Jupiter and Venus are both considered naturally benefic, because they have a moist temperament which is associated with fertility; one being hot (Jupiter) and one being cold (Venus). This is also why Jupiter is more important during the day (because of its hot and moist nature) and Venus during the night (cold and moist).

b) Saturn and Mars are considered the both malefic planets, because of their dry temperament, and in contrast with, they are considered barren planets. Again, one of them is hot (Mars) and the other one cold (Saturn). Because of this Mars is more malefic during the day (because of its hot and dry nature), while Saturn is is more malefic during the night (cold and dry nature). To counter this, the ancients made Mars part of the night sect (so Mars can behave better), and Saturn part of the day sect.

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Okay... this logic is beyond me, probably because the dry/wet hot/cold stuff doesn't make much sense. For those Hellenistic sources, I imagine the dry = malefic, moist = benefic stuff was so ingrained in their culture, worldview, and way of thinking that it was an automatic connection, but for me, it's meaningless. Why does a planet being dry make it act like a bad guy? Or wet make it act like a good guy? What's the logic there?

I have some sense of what hot or cold, dry or moist might mean in this context because I've had my own health issues explained that way by an acupuncturist, using Chinese medicine descriptions: excess of heat, wet or dry temperament, that kind of thing. But why does a planet's temperament make it "good" or "evil"--or do good and evil really apply here?

Osamenor said:

Okay... this logic is beyond me, probably because the dry/wet hot/cold stuff doesn't make much sense. For those Hellenistic sources, I imagine the dry = malefic, moist = benefic stuff was so ingrained in their culture, worldview, and way of thinking that it was an automatic connection, but for me, it's meaningless. Why does a planet being dry make it act like a bad guy? Or wet make it act like a good guy? What's the logic there?

I have some sense of what hot or cold, dry or moist might mean in this context because I've had my own health issues explained that way by an acupuncturist, using Chinese medicine descriptions: excess of heat, wet or dry temperament, that kind of thing. But why does a planet's temperament make it "good" or "evil"--or do good and evil really apply here?

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Because you're a living being and moisture is conducive to life, whereas dryness is harsh to life (mold growing in a badly kept shower, compared to an earthworm dried to a crisp on the footpath).

Good and evil do not really apply. The benefic planets can do evil and the malefic planets can do good. It is more a matter of the quality of the experience itself. Venus might kill you by getting you laid and then contracting a serious disease. Mars will skip the niceties and just get you blown to bits. Both "evil" though.

Osamenor said:

Okay... this logic is beyond me, probably because the dry/wet hot/cold stuff doesn't make much sense. For those Hellenistic sources, I imagine the dry = malefic, moist = benefic stuff was so ingrained in their culture, worldview, and way of thinking that it was an automatic connection, but for me, it's meaningless. Why does a planet being dry make it act like a bad guy? Or wet make it act like a good guy? What's the logic there?

I have some sense of what hot or cold, dry or moist might mean in this context because I've had my own health issues explained that way by an acupuncturist, using Chinese medicine descriptions: excess of heat, wet or dry temperament, that kind of thing. But why does a planet's temperament make it "good" or "evil"--or do good and evil really apply here?

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It isn't good and evil, it's benefic and malefic. Okay, we get it from Aristotle's work, and you will even see signs referred to by temperaments. Aries is hot and dry, Taurus is cold and dry, Gemini is hot and wet, Cancer is cold and wet, and it goes on. Planets also have these elements (and you can even figure out a person's elements).

Moon - cold and wet.
Mercury - cold and dry, BUT changeable, it can pick up the qualities from the planet it is nearest.
Venus - cold and wet.
Sun - hot and dry.
Mars - extremely hot and dry.
Jupiter - hot and wet.
Saturn - extremely cold and dry.

Don't think good and evil. Benefic is temperate, benefic is what supports life. The clear benefics are Venus and Jupiter. Malefic is intemperate, that which does not support life. Saturn for being too cold, Mars for being too hot.

If you don't understand a response in a thread - ask when it's posted.

Osamenor said:

Okay... this logic is beyond me, probably because the dry/wet hot/cold stuff doesn't make much sense. For those Hellenistic sources, I imagine the dry = malefic, moist = benefic stuff was so ingrained in their culture, worldview, and way of thinking that it was an automatic connection, but for me, it's meaningless. Why does a planet being dry make it act like a bad guy? Or wet make it act like a good guy? What's the logic there?

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Its not that they are bad.

Its that their essence (as Oddity explained) corrupts whats near them (by aspect, conjunction or house placement). This is why, for example, an aspect from Saturn is usually considered a debility. Some authors (even modern ones) associate Saturn as the principle of "contraction", because his presence or contact limits the growth of anything in the chart.

In turn, Jupiter promotes growth, thats why its associated with the principle of "expansion", because it helps things expand and get better. For example, having Jupiter in your 2nd house is associated with a testimony for wealth, because Jupiter makes the house he is in expand and grow.

Then you add the essential dignity and debility into the mix, which increases or decreases a planets natural disposition towards these principles. A Saturn in Libra in a day chart, with a lot of dignity, will not be that harmful. While its influence will always be of a saturnian nature (contracting), the effect is much less negative, and sometimes even beneficial.

If we connect the above Aristotelian proto-science with the modern astrology you've probably learned, Osamenor, we can still think of Saturn as the principle of constriction (cold, dry=inimical to growth) and Mars as the principle of aggression ("hot-headed".)

Further back in history, Saturn and Mars became malefic because that was the nature of the Mesopotamian gods for whom the planets were named. The Sumerians, who started it all, believed the planets were gods: they developed a theology about the nature of their various gods which was then applied to heavenly bodies. The Babylonians adapted Sumerian beliefs. Our Saturn was their Ninurta. Our Mars was their Nergal. We can imagine how a war god would appear to ancient people as very harmful, indeed. The so-called "red planet" does not actually appear red, but it does have a fiery colour, which is how the ancient Greeks described it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninurta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nergal
http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AstraPlaneta.html

Similarly, Jupiter was the Babylonian Marduk, beneficial king of the gods. Venus was Inanna/Ishtar. She was generally beneficial but did have an aggressive streak, notably as the morning star; which is why in traditional astrology today, Venus is seen as better positioned if it follows the sun, rather than precedes it. As Marduk morphed into the Greek god Zeus and the Roman Jupiter, his association with rainfall made him beneficial. In the ancient Near East and Mediterranean regions, it pretty much doesn't rain in the summer but in the winter; and then there were always multi-year drought periods. A god who dispensed rain was really beneficial to people.

Then add to this Hellenistic notions about the human body. Ptolemy stated a common belief that women were moister than men! Which kind of makes sense if we think about lactation and menstruation. That might handle the feminine moon and Venus, and the moon was also believed to cause dew at night. Guy-planets Saturn and Mars were inimical to growth-promoting moisture, which Jupiter escapes through his pre-astrology association with growth-promoting rainfall.

Essentially Saturn and Mars are malefic because thousands of years ago, so were the Mesopotamian gods for whom the planets were named. The Hellenistic astrologers subsequently rescripted the older theology into the newer Greek "scientific" beliefs while keeping some of the older religious beliefs intact.

Rawiri said:

Because you're a living being and moisture is conducive to life, whereas dryness is harsh to life (mold growing in a badly kept shower, compared to an earthworm dried to a crisp on the footpath).

Good and evil do not really apply. The benefic planets can do evil and the malefic planets can do good. It is more a matter of the quality of the experience itself. Venus might kill you by getting you laid and then contracting a serious disease. Mars will skip the niceties and just get you blown to bits. Both "evil" though.

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Great explanation!

Oddity said:

It isn't good and evil, it's benefic and malefic. Okay, we get it from Aristotle's work, and you will even see signs referred to by temperaments. Aries is hot and dry, Taurus is cold and dry, Gemini is hot and wet, Cancer is cold and wet, and it goes on. Planets also have these elements (and you can even figure out a person's elements).

Moon - cold and wet.
Mercury - cold and dry, BUT changeable, it can pick up the qualities from the planet it is nearest.
Venus - cold and wet.
Sun - hot and dry.
Mars - extremely hot and dry.
Jupiter - hot and wet.
Saturn - extremely cold and dry.

Don't think good and evil. Benefic is temperate, benefic is what supports life. The clear benefics are Venus and Jupiter. Malefic is intemperate, that which does not support life. Saturn for being too cold, Mars for being too hot.

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Also great explanation!

However, it looks like the "malefic" principle would be needed to support life, too, under some circumstances, wouldn't it? To use the mold in the shower example, if you're asthmatic, mold is going to make it worse. Or, if you have cancer, that's runaway growth that needs to be checked--constricted, cut off--so it sounds like Saturn energy would be needed in that case.

I get it... the dry principle cuts off life... but it's also part of the balance of nature.

Oddity said:

If you don't understand a response in a thread - ask when it's posted.

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That's only possible if I know what questions to ask. If there are just one or two terms that I don't understand, that's doable, but the responses I'm talking about are the ones that go so heavily into traditional astrology lingo that I don't even know where to begin trying to make sense of it.

That's why I'm trying to educate myself--so that it will reach the point where I understand more, and know what to ask if there's something I don't understand.

waybread said:

Then add to this Hellenistic notions about the human body. Ptolemy stated a common belief that women were moister than men! Which kind of makes sense if we think about lactation and menstruation. That might handle the feminine moon and Venus, and the moon was also believed to cause dew at night. Guy-planets Saturn and Mars were inimical to growth-promoting moisture, which Jupiter escapes through his pre-astrology association with growth-promoting rainfall.

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Sounds like yin and yang.

Dirius said:

Its not that they are bad.

Its that their essence (as Oddity explained) corrupts whats near them (by aspect, conjunction or house placement). This is why, for example, an aspect from Saturn is usually considered a debility. Some authors (even modern ones) associate Saturn as the principle of "contraction", because his presence or contact limits the growth of anything in the chart.

In turn, Jupiter promotes growth, thats why its associated with the principle of "expansion", because it helps things expand and get better. For example, having Jupiter in your 2nd house is associated with a testimony for wealth, because Jupiter makes the house he is in expand and grow.

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Okay... so if Saturn and Jupiter form an aspect with each other, what happens? Are they both hindered, because Saturn contracts Jupiter and Jupiter expands Saturn? Does one take precedent over the other? I suppose that would depend on which of them is more dignified. And maybe on the kind of aspect it is? A trine would behave very differently from a square, wouldn't it?

And what if Saturn and Jupiter are equally dignified and form, say, a square?

Dirius said:

Then you add the essential dignity and debility into the mix, which increases or decreases a planets natural disposition towards these principles. A Saturn in Libra in a day chart, with a lot of dignity, will not be that harmful. While its influence will always be of a saturnian nature (contracting), the effect is much less negative, and sometimes even beneficial.

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And does traditional astrology offer any workarounds? Suppose you have, for instance, a thoroughly debilitated Saturn. Are you stuck with nothing but negativity in that part of your chart? Or can you make that debilitated Saturn work for you somehow? Or is there a third option?

Osamenor said:

Great explanation!


Also great explanation!

However, it looks like the "malefic" principle would be needed to support life, too, under some circumstances, wouldn't it? To use the mold in the shower example, if you're asthmatic, mold is going to make it worse. Or, if you have cancer, that's runaway growth that needs to be checked--constricted, cut off--so it sounds like Saturn energy would be needed in that case.

I get it... the dry principle cuts off life... but it's also part of the balance of nature.

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Yes and not so much (I'm sorry!). In traditional astrology, Saturn is the generic ruler of the first house (you won't see this used in a chart reading), because it is limiting - it's what separates you, your body, from the rest of the world.

In reality, the range of temperaments in people is pretty narrow. A bout of too much heat might be a fever of 103, which is bad, but it's not hot compared to a desert. You're not that different from everyone else in range of response.

The ideas of expansion as relates to Jupiter are fairly modern - and some of them are valid, or at least they seem so to me. Usually it is seen as temperate and moderating, it keeps things going well because of that. And its job is to bring good things. But it can go out of whack. If you look at the mundane charts of the past, especially the ones involving the plague, they were Saturn-Mars heavy - but if you really want to up the body count, throw in an ill-dignified Jupiter - that'll do it.

Can a well-dignified Saturn or Mars bring some benefits? They can, but they're nothing compared to what well-placed benefics can bring you. An ill-placed malefic can wreak a lot of havoc, more than an ill-placed benefic will, because the benefic at least tries to bring good, as that's it's nature. Though yes, it can work out badly (plague, body count).

Ideally, malefics should be there in small doses to correct imbalances, at least per me.

If your chart is heavy Jupiter-Venus, well-placed, as a general rule, things are going to go a lot better for you than if it's heavy Saturn-Mars.

Bear in mind that in traditional astrology, we see life as being hard enough all on its own - squares, oppositions, and ill-dignified planets aren't seen as something people 'need' to do things. They're hindrances, things that keep you from having a conventionally good life.

Also bear in mind that the sun is hot and dry, and Mercury is cold and dry, and neither of those planets is naturally malefic. With Saturn and Mars, it's the excess that causes the problems, that makes their natures harmful.

Oddity said:

Bear in mind that in traditional astrology, we see life as being hard enough all on its own - squares, oppositions, and ill-dignified planets aren't seen as something people 'need' to do things. They're hindrances, things that keep you from having a conventionally good life.

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Are squares, oppositions, and ill-dignified planets seen as what makes life hard, then? Or are they just the extra hardships?

I don't think I've ever seen a birth chart that didn't have at least a few of those. Probably, there's no such thing as an all benefic birth chart. So, logically, since no one ever has a 100% easy life, and everyone has some difficult placement or aspect in their birth chart, would it be safe to say that the areas in which you have difficulty are the ones in which your birth chart shows it?

And when you say conventionally good life, the first thought that comes to my mind is, if you have birth chart placements that prevent a conventionally good life... isn't the logical solution to have an unconventionally good life? For instance, let's say someone's placements are bad for marriage, and it just so happens that this person prefers being single. Or maybe they have some socially imposed limiting factor--ie they're gay in a society where it's not safe to come out of the closet, let alone try to marry the partner of their choice. But they might have a good longterm relationship with their "best friend" (I had a great-uncle who lived like that).

Conventionally good life: family, friends, love, enough money to live, a place to live, work you enjoy, good health.

Whether that's gay or straight or 'unconventional' in some way in the modern world, those are the kinds of things we mean when we talk about conventional good.

I have actually seen seriously benefic birth charts. When you don't use the outer planets, they tend to turn up more. But yes, you'll often see a chart with a square or an opposition or one of each or a couple of both, as well as some corrupted planets, and they do show the areas of life that are apt to be problematic for the native. Hopefully, at least some of them can be mitigated, or there may be other avenues someone can pursue if one area is pretty much completely hopeless - and that's the reason we do charts.

Osamenor, this from William Lilly by way of Deborah Houlding:

"Masculine or feminine, depending upon its placement; if in conjunction with a masculine planet, Mercury becomes masculine; if with a feminine, then feminine. By its own nature Mercury is cold and dry, and therefore melancholic. Mercury is adaptable; its influence is beneficial when associated with good planets, malefic when associated with bad planets."
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/mercury_att.html
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/masculine_feminine.html

(melancholic: earth element) The feminine planets are moon and Venus. The others are masculine except Mercury which can go either way, as indicated.

Mercury in some circumstances is a naughty boy, because it rules liars, thieves, and usurers.

I really recommend the Skyscript articles on the planets, and how they play out if well or poorly placed. This one is on the sun: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/sun_att.html

Oooh, we've moved on to temperament.

A few more thoughts to ponder, Osameanor. If you consider the basic natures of the planets:
Sun--select (hot and dry)
Moon--gather and include (cold and moist)
Mercury--contest and destabilize (cold and dry)
Venus--reconcile and unify (cool and moist)
Mars--sever and separate (excessive hot and dry)
Jupiter--confirm and stabilize (hot and moist)
Saturn--isolate and exclude (excessive cold and dry)

As someone mentioned previously, two things are essential for life on earth, whether animal or vegetable, and those are heat and moisture. Think of what makes plants grow.

Heat causes dryness, which is separative. It separates things from one another creating distinctions. Cold (without getting into a debate over whether heat is the only active force and cold is just the absense of heat) condenses, which comingles or brings together.

The Sun is hot and dry, and as everyone could plainly see even way back when, is the source of heat for the spheres. So though the Sun is hot and dry, it is a temperate heat and totally necessary for life--literally the selecter of life.

The Moon is cold and moist, so her nature as well as that of Venus is condensing (cold) and comingling or uniting like with unlike (moist.) Cold and dry Mercury condenses but the dryness creates separation, just like the element of Earth. Mars is excessively hot and dry making him a malefic planet, but he is the lesser Malefic because he does have one of the two humors necessary to life, that of heat. Jupiter is the only planet that is both hot and moist, so it stands to reason that having both humors necessary to life makes him the greater benefic. Similarly, Saturn is excessively cold and dry, with neither of the benefic humors.

Which goes to show the influence of Aristotle on Hellenistic astrology.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/greek.html

http://www.kepler.edu/home/index.ph...uction-to-plato-and-aristotle-for-astrologers (an article by Robert Hand)

Osamenor said:

Okay... so if Saturn and Jupiter form an aspect with each other, what happens? Are they both hindered, because Saturn contracts Jupiter and Jupiter expands Saturn? Does one take precedent over the other? I suppose that would depend on which of them is more dignified. And maybe on the kind of aspect it is? A trine would behave very differently from a square, wouldn't it?

And what if Saturn and Jupiter are equally dignified and form, say, a square?

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Depends on what you are looking to get from the chart, and what area of life are you trying to determine by looking at that aspect between Jupiter and Saturn. I suppose you ask regarding a birth chart.

First let me just state, in an horary, its faily simple to understand given the context of the chart (who is the main player, and what does the other planet represent) so its easy to see what it means.

In a birth chart, depends on the purpose of the chart:

(explaining this as an example on one way to look at the chart, it isn't a complete or accurate way of reading)

First of all, for the big picture, which ever planet is better placed by house position (and also dignity) is (or should be) dominant, and its influence is more relevant for the whole chart. If for example Jupiter is placed in the 10th while trining Saturn in the 2nd. Clearly Jupiter has more power over the chart as a whole.

Second, it depends from the perspective of the area of life you wish to understand. If, for example Saturn rules the 2nd house of money, then Saturn as house ruler would take the role of "main player" (for this specific topic), and thus most aspects to Saturn are analyzed in the context of its influence on Saturn, rather than the other planet.

The chart, in a traditional manner, is analyzes in 3 segments (or more): as a whole, each house seperatly, the planetary significances concerning their natural rulerships; and then there is more ways (like using the lots/parts).

The trine of square implications is that of how the relation between them performs. Planets trining each other, do so because they find themselves in signs of the same triplicity. Planets squaring each other are on planets of different temperature (like fire and water). A trine is expected to be an easy relation, in which both planets "blend" well, a square the contrary.

But I must admit that in birth chart readings, my practical knowledge isn't that big. So if someone else whises to explain this, might be better

Osamenor said:

And does traditional astrology offer any workarounds? Suppose you have, for instance, a thoroughly debilitated Saturn. Are you stuck with nothing but negativity in that part of your chart? Or can you make that debilitated Saturn work for you somehow? Or is there a third option?

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Oddity stated this very well. Traditional astrology works under the realistic assumption that life is hard.

For the concept of predicting events, Profections and Solar returns help for undertaking actions that would (according to the chart) concern the debilitated planet. For example, if your 7th house ruler is rather weak, finding a specific profection/solar return for a year in which the native may have and easier way meeting someone or getting married.

From a personality perspective it is very simple:

If you are a jackass because your Saturn is badly placed, then stop being a jackass.

This conversation lead me to remember an issue I always had regarding the malefic planets, one in which I always find myself in a bit of confusion.

We know that having planets in the 6th and 12th is bad, as a general rule.

However, some authors state that having Saturn and Mars in those houses is... "ideal", because given that those houses "limit" the influence of the planets, having your malefics locked away would be better. This is reinforced by the fact that most authors agree that Saturn rejoices in the 12th, while Mars rejoices in the 6th (and thus behave better this way).

Other authors seem to believe the complete opposite, that having the Malefic planets in those placements makes them even worse, as if their influence is expanded by being in the malefic houses, and thus create more trouble.

I would like to hear your thoughts on that guys. Its a subject that has always escaped me.

Osa, one more thing on that Jupiter-Saturn aspect. If Saturn receives Jupiter things will go better, because Saturn is bound to let Jupiter have at least some of its way. The two are enemies, so it won't be perfect, but you'll get at least some minimal good out of Jupiter.

You don't want to see it the other way round, though, with Jupiter receiving Saturn, because that means Jupiter will let Saturn have its way to a great degree, and that won't be good.

So that's one case where you don't, as a rule, like to see mutual reception. I speak from some personal experience here, as I've got them in MR and both are angular. It hasn't killed the good of Jupiter in my chart, but it has definitely caused some serious problems from time to time. Seen it in a lot of other charts, too. Same deal goes for a planet in aspect to Mars.

Dirius, really good question, and one I've puzzled over as well. Part of me says I don't want Saturn or Mars seeing the ascendant, the further away the better! On the other hand, I always think of a client I had with Saturn actually in good dignity in 12. It was very active (as was Mars, but Saturn was in overdrive) when her house burned down and everyone in her family was killed - except her.

So I guess you could say that Saturn acted as something of a 'guardian angel', but in a horrible way.

It is something I have thought about, too, and probably your question deserves its own thread.

Interestingly, I've read in Picatrix, and a couple of other places, that Saturn in its dignities retrograde is worse than Saturn peregrine retrograde, and again, given the way I've seen it act in charts, I am inclined to believe this. It may have been an error on the part of the writer, but....yeah.

Dirius said:

First of all, for the big picture, which ever planet is better placed by house position (and also dignity) is (or should be) dominant, and its influence is more relevant for the whole chart. If for example Jupiter is placed in the 10th while trining Saturn in the 2nd. Clearly Jupiter has more power over the chart as a whole.

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And would this hold true even if their respective sign placements gave more dignity to Saturn? Say, Jupiter is in Virgo and Saturn in Capricorn, but the house placements are still the same.

Dirius said:

The trine of square implications is that of how the relation between them performs. Planets trining each other, do so because they find themselves in signs of the same triplicity. Planets squaring each other are on planets of different temperature (like fire and water). A trine is expected to be an easy relation, in which both planets "blend" well, a square the contrary.

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Does traditional astrology consider out of sign aspects, or just aspects by sign? If there is, say, a planet at 0 Leo and a planet at 29 Aries, do those planets form a trine, or a square? And do planets have to be within orb to be in an aspect, or is it just the signs that count?