psychological interpretation of important astrological configurations

IleneK

Premium Member
While I have been looking at my natal chart for a long time, I feel this might be a good time for me to get some other impressions of it. I would be most interested to get psychological interpretations of what you perceive to be the more important astrological configurations.

Many thanks,
 
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StillOne

Well-known member
Ilene, could you also post a chart from astro? For some reason I just like how the aspects show up on those. Thx!
 

StillOne

Well-known member
Well, I'm hoping Miquar will help you out here Ilene. IMO he's certainly one of the best here at modern psychological astrology. I wish sandstone wasn't banned, as he was excellent as well.

Anyway, I'm sure you know quite a bit about your chart since, imo, you're quite talented at astrological interpretation.

Speaking of talents... Your talent triangle, minor grand trine, is most interesting to me. I can see this being a source for the strength you have in these occult matters like astrology. What with Pluto in the 12th being the apex! There isn't much information about this structure online. However, it is said it comes to fruition later in life. I assume that's when we have learned to command the easier aspects and making the structure blossom for us... Any thoughts?

I share your Sun Chiron opposition. How do you think this has impacted your life?

I'm just shooting from the hip and wanting to promote some discussion about your chart since you've been so helpful here recently! :love:
 

miquar

Well-known member
Thank you very much for those encouraging words StillOne.

Ilene, do you mind if I interpret your chart using Placidus houses, or would you like me to stick to Whole Sign? (There probably won't be much difference because your Ascendant is early in its sign, and because you were born reasonably close to the equator.)

I'll wait for your reply and then I'll print my own copy of your chart if you're happy with quadrant houses. It will probably be Saturday before I can have a proper look at it though.

Best wishes
 

IleneK

Premium Member
Thank you very much for those encouraging words StillOne.

Ilene, do you mind if I interpret your chart using Placidus houses, or would you like me to stick to Whole Sign? (There probably won't be much difference because your Ascendant is early in its sign, and because you were born reasonably close to the equator.)

I'll wait for your reply and then I'll print my own copy of your chart if you're happy with quadrant houses. It will probably be Saturday before I can have a proper look at it though.

Best wishes

Miquar,

Placidus is fine since there is no difference between it and Whole Sign with my chart. I appreciate your kindness.
 

claudette

Well-known member
A fascinatinng chart. I hope you don't mind my joining the discussion, here.

I have to ask, what is a minor grand trine? I don't see it; what am I missing?

I do see Sun conj. Algol, oppos. chiron, square moon and mars. How has this worked for you?

All that leo in the 12th-how does that manifest, do you think?
 

StillOne

Well-known member
Well of course I think the most important configuration in your chart, Ilene, is the T-Square involving your Sun, Moon and Chiron. This I feel is obvious and I really didn't want to mention it since I feel that you've most likely done quite a bit of studying on this particular pattern...

I'm really too much of a novice to tackle this structure, especially with your Leo Moon in the 12th Square that Sun in Taurus. Since I have a Water Moon in the 12th, a Fire Moon in the 12th is really foreign to me. Also, I lack earth in my chart so I'm at a loss there as well! Lol! All I know is with all the Squares coming into the 12th, that there is undoubtedly a lot of energy focused on the elements of the 12th house!

I think you have an incredible depth that most of the time, people that meet you are surprised by. You most likely have quite a presence in a room that people can't put their finger on. I would think that people are drawn to you because your otherworldliness is quite magnetic (Leo) yet undercover. So people that are not in tune may miss this about you. Your challenge, of course, has always been how to understand your elusive emotional nature since it's in potential conflict with your philosophy. I think a Taurus Sun may struggle with the elements of the 12th house since it's looking for a more tangible existence. Chiron adds a sensitivity to your Luminaries on top of this and has forced you to search for healing most of your life. Something that may not have started until you were a bit older and recognized the subtleties of the energies at work since they are placed in cadent houses.

Just giving it a shot. Really, this is just a courtesy bump of your post as I'm really looking forward to what Miquar has to say! :love: Lol, I hope he doesn't mind me calling him out like this!
 
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Judy_AzVirgo

Well-known member
Ilene, I keep seeing "caution" written in your chart, and a lack of confidence. But of course we're not just getting older, we're getting BETTER. And I am sure you've settled most of this stuff.

* Chiron opposing the Sun... feeling reticent, "exposed" or vulnerable, especially when speaking/writing. Needing to heal the hurt in order to really let that Sun shine. Was it/is it a struggle to assert yourself or speak your mind? I imagine you were a quiet child... maybe ignored in some ways? Were siblings a problem?

* A gift for thinking and communication (Virgo rising, Gemini MC, ruler Mercury inside the 10th and sextile Pluto ruler of 3rd), but hesitant or cautious about using it (Mercury 'behind' the Sun, more analytic and careful than the typical Gemini Mercury; Mercury trine Pluto-Saturn... another cautious, self-disciplined signal; Scorpio on the 3rd house cusp).

* The powerful stellium in the 12th, with planets ruling the 3rd, 5th, 8th and 11th. A lot of energy kept under wraps, hard to express positively in early life, and internalized (or spiritualized).

I always think Moon in the 12th is such a sweet but fragile thing -- despite your Mars right beside it! In Leo, yet! But Saturn conjunct Moon-Mars would bring caution, even some (subconscious or deep seated) fears. So, kind of an on-and-off expression of the Moon, held back and propelled forward. A wallflower hiding in the shadows and wanting to be the hot chick with the red dress on? Unsure whether to cry or get angry when emotions are bruised.

This stellium is self-protective, hugely sensitive, especially about displaying feelings in a spontaneous way. Maybe the Uranus sextile and Jupiter trine to Moon-Mars help you free things up and be more expressive. In any event, over the years, I'm sure you've come to terms with that complex energy, slain the demons ... learned to believe in yourself.

* Sun square Moon-Mars (and maybe Saturn) is a bit inhibited or maybe a bit awkward. Such a nice, quiet Taurus lady ... with this Moon that wants to SHINE! I often see issues of self-worth with this square, connected to uncertainty about how to get the two to work together.

* Virgo rising. Usually cautious, often self-deprecating or unsure of itself. Your Ascendant is conjunct my Sun. Cool!

* Pisces Descendant. You're very gentle with people -- of course I can see that in your posts. Maybe you sometimes feel misguided in relationships (Neptune in Libra squaring Venus) -- which has made you fearful of being hurt. Pisces connects to your 12th house, so some of that same guarded energy applies to relationships.

Would love to know what goes on in your mind. Do you write? (Aside from astrology.)
 

miquar

Well-known member
Hi Ilene. Well I did a longer than usual interpretation and got a bit carried away. Obviously there will be a lot of speculation as I don’t know you, so please think of the suggestions as tentatively offered.

The elemental picture in this chart doesn’t feel straightforward because most of the fire placements are in the 12th house and also they include Saturn and Pluto. Meanwhile the Sun is a singleton in earth, but then it’s still the all-important Sun (and despositing most of the fire), and the Ascendant is also in earth. The personal planets are actually distributed as evenly as they could be through the elements, with two in fire, and one each in the other elements. Nonetheless, fire is the strongest element. With Leo and Sagittarius being orientated towards the search for meaning, and the fire planets being in water houses, searching within for a sense of connection with your ‘divine spark’ could have been an important feature of your life in one way or another. I’ll say more about the elements as I go along.

There is of course a clear emphasis on fixity, with a decent amount of mutability (with strongly tenanted cadent houses). The planets in fixed signs are mainly the inherently wilful planets (Mars, Saturn, Pluto, Sun) whilst Mercury and Jupiter are looking especially mutable in their own signs, making their presence felt in angular houses, and with Mercury ruling the Ascendant and MC.

So a sense of persistence, perhaps to the extent of stubbornness at times, and a need to establish a sense of stability – in this case through the elements of fire (identity and purpose) and earth (sensuality and the material world). But then along side this you seem to be primed to pick up all manner of information about the world around you, and may be prone to overstimulation at times. As well as the Virgo, Gemini and Sagittarius mutable placements you have Piscean energy in the form of Neptune being well aspected to personal planets and the 12th house being well tenanted.

In terms of modalities/qualities, perhaps the overall picture is of an openness – a restless alertness even – to new understanding of all kinds (mutable), anchored by an enduring sense of physicality and resourcefulness (earth), and destiny and creative power (fire) (fixed).

I’m drawn to the Leo planets as a place to start. The Pluto in Leo generation share a deep and unconscious need to undergo some kind of regeneration in their attitudes towards the experience and expression of individuality. You were all born at a time when collective survival instincts were focused on the eruption of individual creativity at the expense of any collective values and structures which had previously stifled this.

With Saturn also in Leo, you are of course also part of a smaller generation group for whom it is especially important to manifestly express that individual uniqueness. But with Saturn, there is ambivalence, in this case arising from doubts about the validity of the inner vision, and a consequent fear of not having anything special to offer.

Since Saturn and Pluto were conjunct when you were born, there is great urgency around working through these fears. Like the phoenix, Saturn-Pluto must burn in order to emerge anew, and when these planets are conjunct in Leo, the frustration of the egocentric infant within fuels the fire. On the other side of the burning ground lies a true and mature sense of purpose and meaning that is not dependent on power over others as a compensation for a fear of insignificance and impotence. It is, in other words, an ability to relish having an ego and a unique purpose in life, while also being able to accept the necessity of yielding when necessary – something which both Saturn and Pluto insist upon.

Of course I’m not saying that you, or any particular individual born under this conjunction is some raging despot. Nevertheless, I would suggest that this is a theme which tends to be expressed on some level by each member of this group at some point(s) in their lives.

Personalising this to your chart, one thing to note is that you have this conjunction in the 12th house. So there could have been resistance to this theme amongst your family – a tendency which may go back many generations. The 12th is where we make sacrifices of some kind to the collective, and so it could be said that you have been given the task of making the necessary redeeming sacrifices to those ‘gods’ and ‘goddesses’ who have been dishonoured by your ancestors. I am of course referring ultimately to the issue of psychological inheritance, but I find the meaning of the 12th house particularly difficult to articulate without the use of more mythic imagery.

Its important to keep in mind what Liz Greene has said about planets in the 12th house, i.e. that they don’t show energies that have to be sacrificed, but rather describe the manner in which service to the collective is offered, and also the nature of the collective yearning which we are called to answer. So the Saturn-Pluto in Leo issues discussed above, and also the Moon and Mars, may be experienced to some extent through a receptivity to the emotional hunger of those around you for the liberation of that creative individual essence from beneath the weight of fear and oppression.

Moon, Mars, Saturn and Pluto all share a tendency towards self-protection and defensiveness, as does Chiron, which squares two, three or even four of the Leo planets (depending on the orbs used) from Pluto’s sign, Scorpio. I’m not sure how to read that. You certainly don’t come across as defensive on the forum. You also don’t come across as at all dogmatic, which would be a possibility with a fixed T square involving potentially defensive planets and the 3rd and 9th houses. Perhaps there have been time in the past when you’ve had to rise to a challenge involving learning/communicating, whether this involved a power struggle with others, or simply some struggle against inner demons.

This Saturn doesn’t seem the happiest Saturn around. Its in one of its signs of detriment, sandwiched between the Moon and Pluto (whose emotional drives Saturn finds disconcerting) and in the 12th house (where Saturn can struggle to do its job of guarding the boundaries of the ego.) I wonder if this Saturn gets tired at times from trying hard to keep it all together. This Leo stellium in the 12th is certainly something of an enigma and I look forward to hopefully finding out how you see it!

During your childhood, transiting Pluto would have been conjunct Saturn, then the Moon, and then Mars, and transiting Saturn would have reached the Moon and Mars in the first year of life, perhaps retrograding back to them as your first birthday approached. Progressed Moon conjunct Mars would have occurred at around six or seven months. And then there’s all the solar arc conjunctions to natal planets that would have been going on. There is a sense of trouble or drama of some kind, and you would have been very receptive to any such issues in the family psyche which weren’t being openly expressed (12th house).

Moon in Leo suggests that a sense of safety and belonging is found through spontaneous and playful creativity. With your Leo Moon caught up with Saturn, Pluto, Mars and Chiron, it is likely that your Mother lacked faith in her own validity and destiny. Perhaps a need to keep control of her emotions (and perhaps at times an inability to do so) meant that the imaginative and playful nurturing you needed wasn’t available. And so you may be (/have been) engaged in a process of coaxing out an imaginative and sensitive little girl who went into hiding.

There are, as is always the case, many possible ancestral pasts which the 12th house stellium could symbolise for you. An extreme example would be victimisation, perhaps annihilation, of family members. Liz Greene reports that many people who are part of the Saturn Pluto in Leo group have dreams about the holocaust, and although this could reflect that some victims of the holocaust reincarnated under the conjunction, there could also be a tendency to identity with the persecuted due to the presence of the Saturn Pluto dynamic in the psyche. Either way, with the stellium in the 12th house, there is a suggestion that something happened in the family past that has left a residue in the family psyche connected with this theme.

A less extreme example would be an ongoing sense of defeat, passed from one generation to the next, regarding the capacity to relish one’s sense of individuality and identity. Or another example could be some secret (possibly involving shame or regret) passed down the generations, perhaps no longer known consciously to those in the world today, but still affecting present family members nonetheless.

With Mercury in Gemini in the 10th ruling MC in Gemini, and with the Moon exactly square the 3rd house Chiron, communication may have been significant in some way in your relationship with your Mother. Perhaps she talked a lot to make sure no one talked about anything uncomfortable? It is likely that communication has become an important part of your life, and that you can communicate with sensitivity. This sensitivity arises from an understanding of the power of communication, which you probably acquired quite early on. A process of dealing with childhood wounds around communication, and possibly learning, may have paralleled the continued development of this sensitivity. Mercury’s involvement in the talent triangle with Neptune and Pluto which StillOne pointed out also strengthens this theme.

Fiery Moons whose imaginative gifts aren’t validated by others often retreat into a fantasy world. But your imagination might have been very susceptible to negative feelings around you, so I wonder how this was for you? I wonder also if you have ever felt drawn to work with troubled children, or adults who experienced a troubled childhood. The Mercury Jupiter placements and Sun in the 9th opposite Chiron in the 3rd point to this possibility, too, if the role involved also being a teacher. The 12th house Pluto is exactly square the 10th house Mercury in Gemini (chart ruler), and the 12th house Moon is sextile the 10th house Uranus. Jupiter in Sagittarius offers release for Mars by a close trine, and also for Pluto through the exact sesquiquadrate. Both Jupiter and Pluto contact the Mercury Neptune midpoint.

Or perhaps there has been ambivalence or some degree of aversion connected with children due to lunar issues. This could be the chart of someone who ‘chooses’ on some level to pursue a career (probably intellectually stimulating) instead of the role of mothering. Or it could be the chart of someone who, through a combination of finding it difficult to yield to the demands of motherhood and a need for intellectual stimulation, needed to pursue a career, or at least make space for varied interests. These are just tentative suggestions of course. These issues could apply to your own Mother at least as much as to you, especially since opportunities for women to carve their own path seem to be less for each preceding generation.

Mars in Leo needs to assert the right to be oneself, and I would see this placement adding to the need to resolve any issues which might prevent spontaneous self-expression. Being in the 12th suggests the tendency to fight on behalf of others, but the inspiration behind the fight must come from your own inner sense of purpose. Otherwise apathy or irritation could arise. The trine to Jupiter is probably very helpful in supporting the expression of Mars, especially in pursuit/defence of faith, understanding and morality. With Mars and Jupiter both in water houses, this trine could have been influenced by your family background for at least part of your life, especially since Mars rules the other water house, the 8th.

A point to mention about these 12th house planets is that if they aren’t owned, they could manifest as a vague sense of threat – of something potentially undermining or destructive. Another possibility is that your own stubbornness or defensiveness may have been your undoing at some point without you necessarily realising that you were behaving in this way. But these suggestions are merely offered tentatively as possibilities.

On a more positive note, you probably have deep insights into the way that society needs to change backed up by the determination to realise these changes, if this is a path you have chosen at any time in your life. To support this insight you have the MC and Uranus (in the 10th) both in Gemini, ruled by Mercury in Gemini in the 10th. All this suggests a tremendous curiosity about how society works, and an ability to analyse the various connections make of which society is comprised. With Uranus in the 10th you may be a lightening conductor for new insights about social structures and their potential improvement. Jupiter opposite Uranus needs a great deal of freedom, especially when occurring across the mutable yang axis of Gemini and Sagittarius. There is a suggestion of one or more parent(s) involved with academia and/or travel.

The idea that you entertain visions of a better world is backed up by Mercury’s trine to Neptune in Libra (idealisation of harmony and order). Along with Mars Jupiter, these are the only close trines in your chart, suggesting that joy will come to you through mobilising yourself (Mercury and Mars) towards that which inspires you to open up to life (Jupiter and Neptune).

But of course the most prominent type of aspect in your chart is probably the square, and most of these are part of the fixed T square involving the Sun Chiron opposition and the Leo planets (not so much Pluto, but especially the Moon). So Chiron makes fairly close hard major aspects to the Sun and Moon, making it very powerful in your chart. Also, the following midpoint contacts add to its strength, while also involving Mars more strongly with the Sun, Moon and Chiron:

Mars = Chiron/Ascendant (exact)
Sun = Mars/Chiron (exact)
Mars = Chiron/MC (direct)
Sun = Moon/Mars (less than half a degree orb)

Saturn is also involved in some contacts that bring it more into the T square, though these contacts have wider orbs.

Although the Leo Moon and Mars (and Saturn) are the focal planets in the T square, I feel that it falls to the Sun in Taurus in the 9th to orchestrate the T square planets, especially since it desposits the focal planets. The Sun god Apollo – breaker of family curses – looking steadfast and grounded in Taurus, but seeking fulfilment through the expansive experiences of the 9th house.

Sun in Taurus suggests that the heroic struggle to realise your inner divinity involves resisting being distracted too much by the complexities and dramas of life. Simplicity and serenity are important ingredients for vitality for Sun in Taurus, and confidence in your unique worth and special destiny are enhanced when you are making steady progress in the creation of something lasting, useful and pleasurable. You probably feel revitalised by contact with the earth and nature, feeling a deep affinity with, and appreciation of, the patient industry and enduring strength of the natural world.

Although the Sun is a singleton in earth, and the emphasis is on fire, I would imagine that the Taurian Sun is not an outcast in your chart, especially now that you have been living under the light of this Sun for over sixty years. I would guess that the strength and simplicity towards which Taurus inclines have been of great benefit to you in dealing with the trials suggested by the T square.

The T square is fixed, but falling in cadent houses, suggesting dogged persistence in the acquiring of understanding and a need to remain true to your own values as you integrate with the world around you. Sun in the 9th comes alive when in pursuit of clues in a cosmic treasure hunt for meaning and faith. There could have been struggles along the way, and perhaps you still feel that you have to consciously strive to get closer to the understanding of life sought through the 9th house, for there is always further to go with the Sun.

To discern the likely nature of some of these struggles we can look mainly to the rest of the T square. Chiron in the 3rd tends to reflect the crushing of ideals of fairness through experiences of making connections. This can be around physical mobility (either through a handicap or illness, or because childhood circumstances in some way physically stopped the indulging of curiosity about the world.) It can also be around the expression of curiosity on a more verbal and intellectual level. Chiron in Scorpio suggests that these issues had an emotional intensity to them, for this placement brings the need to make peace with the fact of savage and uncivilised human emotions and the injustices which arise from them. And from following this process deep (and sympathetic) insight into the ‘darker’ side of human nature is acquired.

You may have felt, especially in childhood, that communication can be dangerous, and this may have affected your confidence in the simple and philosophical approach to life illuminated by your Sun in Taurus in the 9th. Chiron aspects three Leo planets as well as the Sun, and so there is a sense that life somehow initially got in the way of your urge to shine your solar light spontaneously and joyfully into the world. Ultimately the potential is to shine your light in a healing and compassionate manner, but sometimes a process of letting go of resentment is needed before the acceptance of the past can lead to Chiron’s wisdom.

Your father’s own solar light may have been stifled somehow by the circumstances surrounding his life. His own need for travel or understanding may have been driven by some deep wound, or perhaps he was not able to fulfil a desire to broaden his horizons in the way he would have liked. The Square to the Leo Moon suggests that there may have been tension between your Mother and Father, and this may have set the scene for tense inner dynamics as well as struggles with partners for periods of your life.

The Sun closely contacting the Mars/Chiron and Moon/Mars midpoints, as well as squaring both Moon and Mars as part of the T square with Chiron, implies that his own dramatic impulses may have troubled him, causing him to try to suppress the more volatile parts of his nature. But he may have been able to channel some of this energy into pursuing his goals.

Sun contacting the 12th house planets perhaps in some way reiterates the sesquiquadrate from the Sun to Neptune, which is applying with less than a 1 degree orb. The Sun is also ruled by a rather watery looking Venus (in Cancer square Neptune). You may have idealised your father and needed to be close to him (this would perhaps be even more the case if there had been a separation of any kind between you.)

I don’t think its worth me venturing more about the T square until I have more of a sense of how you have experienced this very complex configuration. 2013 and 2014 could be a very important year for you as transiting Saturn moves into a fixed sign again. You might find it useful to look back to other years of your life when transiting Saturn has been in fixed signs.

Perhaps one final thing to mention about the T square is the idea that the empty leg (in this case in Aquarius in the 6th house) is the part of the chart where release can be found for the T square tensions. So Aquarius in the 6th would perhaps be about approaching the rituals, cycles and necessities of mundane life in a spirit of experimentation rather than conforming to habit and social expectation. It could also be about involving yourself in work situations in which you are pursuing your ideals with like-minded people.

Venus in Cancer is a very sensitive placement, especially when a singleton by element (which it is if we don’t count Chiron as a planet) and square Neptune. With Neptune being in Libra, this square has a sense of yearning for a relationship (or sense of equilibrium in life) which will reconnect you to a place of healing and solace where you can rest from the toil and isolation of life to be born anew. The sextile it makes to the Ascendant adds a lovely touch of sensitivity to the careful and courteous Virgo energy. Meanwhile the sesquiquadrate to Chiron could make it feel more difficult for this Venus to enjoy the warmth of human contact which it values so much.

Venus in Cancer could reflect a pocket of nostalgia in your psyche, and you might find this placement is nourished by keeping touch with old friends (cusp of the 11th) and generally anything that symbolises happy times from the past. With Uranus conjunct the Mercury/Venus midpoint, you will probably also need a lot of stimulation from friends, perhaps liking to meet new people. But I do get a sense of a possible tendency to identify with people who hold a vision of the future which is in some way rooted in the best features of the past.

The chart as a whole seems to incline strongly towards the need for self-sufficiency (Sun in Taurus and Moon-Saturn involved in the T square with Chiron, with the Virgo Ascendant, etc.) Venus in Cancer square Neptune in the 2nd would seem to possibly contradict this, being perhaps a possible signature of someone who seeks financial help from the state (10th) / social security (11th). But perhaps combined with the self-sufficient orientation, this square reflects a tendency to give, rather than neediness. (You might not always let yourself ask for help when really you should!)

The Ascendant in Virgo can of course help the Sun to get to grips with the material world. Virgo rising notices where things are not being organised and used to their best effect, and sets out to put things right. Its important that this potentially very creative tendency to scrutinise doesn’t turn back on you and get in the way of self-acceptance. This could be something that has been an issue for you because it could build on the self-critical tendencies of Moon-Saturn, Moon-Chiron and Sun-Chiron, and perhaps even Capricorn on the 5th cusp. Thus the chart suggests a possible need to work on being comfortable in the body, since the Moon and Ascendant are innately connected with the body, and any issues around tensely aspected Taurus planets can sometimes manifest as a sense of shame around the body and its needs and functions.

Another interesting point about this Ascendant is that it seems to mirror the flavour of the empty leg of the T square, which I would see as helpful. The empty leg is in Aquarius in the 6th, while the Ascendant is in Virgo exactly quintile Uranus. Ritual and routine are perhaps not merely habitual and safe, but rather a temporary embodiment of a constantly evolving understanding of the laws underlying the manifest world. Moon sextile Uranus also brings a natural ability to make changes in cyclical and habitual ways of being.

The sign and house position of the NN is the same as that of the Sun, which I would read as an underlining of the Solar journey discussed above. But the nodal axis squares both Saturn and Pluto, suggesting that the Saturn/Pluto issues discussed at the beginning of the essay are given added strength and significance. This, on top of the prominence of Mercury and Jupiter in their own signs in the parental houses, plus the T square involving the 3rd and 9th houses, makes me wonder if there was any degree of religious (or even anti-religious or political) dogma around when you were growing up. Or perhaps your family was on the receiving end of such dogma.

Saturn and Pluto square the nodal axis suggests that a confrontation with the shadow is a feature of the path of your soul in this life time, and also that great anxiety and/or determination may accompany any attempts you make to bring something into being or to make changes to your world. This shadow confrontation, which must always involve a death on some level before things can move on, could be personal or societal, or both.

Well, Ilene, hopefully this has been fairly coherent and there has been something of interest here.
 

StillOne

Well-known member
Well, Ilene, hopefully this has been fairly coherent and there has been something of interest here.

I'd say that's an understatement Miquar! Jeez, that was a manifesto! Incredible analysis there. Thank you for the time spent as it really is quite above what's called for. You show great dedication to this forum even though you are not paid for your services here. It certainly tells quite a bit about the type of person you are and it's appreciated around here, I'm sure of it.

Judy, you too! I was hoping that you'd stop by since it seems that you and Ilene work well together on this forum. Very nice insight as well.

I had a bit of a personal interest in this thread since Ilene has her Moon and Saturn in the 12th house like I do. However, it being in a Fire sign had me interested in the comparison between it and my Water 12th.
 
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