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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #26  
Unread 07-14-2019, 05:30 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post

Being born in India, my upbringing reeked of karma and fate from childhood that people readily accept their inability to change things and this has bothered me for a very long time. I'm curious about what ancient astrologers have to say.

Thanks
and also

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
May be but I don’t like to blame fate, I just want to know when do I stop working for things hoping things would improve?
I am curious where the assumption comes from thattraditional astrology would be more likely to suggest that you can 'stop working for things' ? [deleted "modern astrology" reference - Moderator]


Last edited by wilsontc; 07-15-2019 at 12:13 PM.
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Unread 07-14-2019, 05:46 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Culpeper infrequently posts
but did make the following useful comment
on topic for this thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Culpeper View Post


It is difficult to know what most astrologers believe about any particular idea. There is no paradigm enforced by academia because astrology, inspite of its ancient roots, is not accepted at all by the modern establishment. Astrologers are free and on their own.

In the ancient world reincarnation was taught by Pythagoras and Plato among others. Some souls could choose their lives, but others could not. Fate and destiny ruled the lives of men, but fate was not absolute: If one were to study philosophy the tyranny of fate could be overcome.

The more I study astrology the more I see its influence in peoples lives. It is often most visible in celebrity charts. I was just reading an article on Mussolini in Today's Astrologer. He was very successful until his progressed planets began to go retrograde. His popularity began to fade, then he was forced to resign and was soon killed. The philosophers would say that since he killed millions during his life, that this contributed to his harsh destiny.

However, if someone studies astrology or has a good astrologer, their fate may also be controlled. The natal chart is a map of life. It shows what difficulties may be expected and how to attain success even with weak planets. Celebrities often secretly receive astrological advice. If that is the case, we often cannot see the progress of their lives in their charts. They have left that behind. President R. Reagan had astrological advice. And according to published documents I have, so does B. Obama. This may account for his winning the presidential election even though his tenth house is much weaker than the tenth of J. McCain.

Therefore, fate is not absolute. Astrology can help anyone find their way to a happy destiny.
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  #28  
Unread 07-14-2019, 05:48 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

tsmall, a traditional astrologer states:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post


the certainty that things will happen in our lives over which we have no control, therefore no free will.

Let's take for example a child who develops an aggressive form of brain cancer at 20 months of age. Do you suppose she has free will in the matter? Do you suppose her parents have free will in this circumstance to direct the physical, real life course of events which are certain to follow? Further, do you believe that the cancer can be found in the natal charts of the daughter and parents? Or at the very least that the loss of a child should show in the parents' charts?

I do not believe that fate = karma. They are two separate concepts. I also believe that the birth chart can be read from two distinct perspectives. The first is the physical reality of the set of circumstances with which the native will be presented, and the second is how the native will internally react to those circumstances.

In the case of my lousy 8th house, it is not that I have bad relationships. On the contrary, the ruler of my 7th house is exalted in the 4th. Also, the 7th is not just personal/romantic relationships, but encompasses business partnerships and open enemies. Along those lines the 8th is many things, not the least of them the house we look to which will show the physical/material support for the 7th. So the 7th is good, but the 8th is lacking. Reading the whole chart would show that my fate is to be highly concerned and disappointed with the 8th which could (and almost did) cause me to reject the 7th. Unless I work with my fate but understanding it in order to fully realize the potential of the 7th.
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Unread 07-14-2019, 07:43 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Read Manilius (1st century) for one ancient astrologer's view, which matches my own.
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Unread 07-15-2019, 04:27 AM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
Thanks, don’t take this the wrong way but I’m tired of people portraying Saturn rewards efforts, delays but never denies yadda yadda yadda. This seems to be definitely the work of modern esoteric astrologers who sprayed some new age ideas from ‘60s and ‘70s. I too have Saturn in the first house and also conj. Asc and it happens to the strongest planet as per some calculations and methods and chart ruler as per some other method. Whatever be the case I have been seeing the planet’s action in my life for over 13 years now straight. I have only experienced what Saturn is known for, the greater malefic. No matter how hard I try to make things happen and stay positive things just don’t work out. So I switched sides from modern astrology to traditional astrology. At least traditional astrology does not sugar coat things and does not mislead people.



May be but I don’t like to blame fate, I just want to know when do I stop working for things hoping things would improve?
Saturn doesn't ask you to put on a happy face. Saturn is all about hard work, getting by with very little, and persistence. Because Saturn rules old age, he does tend to reward his apt pupils later in life.

Maybe changing your goals would be beneficial?

[deleted modern astrology reference - Moderator]
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Unread 07-15-2019, 09:05 AM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
and also
I am curious where the assumption comes from that either modern astrology or traditional astrology would be more likely to suggest that you can 'stop working for things' ?
Answering this would need to bring in modern western and vedic astrologies. So I created a new thread here.

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...278#post986278


Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Saturn doesn't ask you to put on a happy face. Saturn is all about hard work, getting by with very little, and persistence. Because Saturn rules old age, he does tend to reward his apt pupils later in life.

Maybe changing your goals would be beneficial?

The kind of astrology I am not meant to mention on this thread is neither inherently "sugar coating" or "misleading" any more than any other kind of astrology. It depends upon the practitioner. The old traditional astrologers had a pretty gloomy view of human nature so far as Saturn is concerned that arguably went too far the other way.

I think that temperament suits me as I too have gloomy view of the human nature and life in general . Don't you think my own personal experience as validated by traditional astrology is more apt for me at least?

Edit: Feel free to provide your persepective on the link I gave above. I may be harsh on modern astrology but I'm no way interested in proving which system is better but I'm very critical of people who think they are experts and mislead others intentionally or unintentionally which is a typical new age thing. So, when I have confusion or am misled, I go to the source and validate myself.

Last edited by lostinstars; 07-15-2019 at 04:34 PM.
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Unread 07-15-2019, 12:18 PM
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no need to justify questions, to All

All,

There is NO need for posters to justify their questions as being relevant to Traditional astrology. All that needs to happen is ALL posters need to mention ONLY traditional astrology or NO astrological traditions in their posts. The posters question or statement will then be taken as a question or statement about TRADITIONAL astrological methods which others are free to discuss. However any mention of planets BEYOND Saturn belong in the Modern Astrology or Natal Astrology Forums.

Free to question,

Tim
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  #33  
Unread 07-16-2019, 02:06 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

The study of fortune and destiny in the chart

has been recovered

from the works of Vettius Valens.
We consult the second century astrologer
to return to an astrology not known since his time.
working within a deterministic system
we are seeking to be privy to the inscrutable workings of Fate
we may wish to reject this idea
as insufficiently allowing us
to properly assign "Free Will" to our ego nature.
Ironically, this system is useful for also pointing out
how the Ego can prevent a more fortunate fate from occurring.
In other words, the system of these five additional, calculated "lots"
creates an astrological universe of its own.
It reveals a hidden aspect of the chart, our own role in it
and what indicators we must follow in order to fulfill our destiny.

FREE pdf
THE FIVE HIDDEN PILLARS OF FATE
https://www.scribd.com/doc/6956746/F...y-in-Astrology
©2007 Antoine Garth, All Rights Reserved
Antoine Garth, astrologer
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Unread 07-16-2019, 02:41 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Links To a Series of Threads generously provided by petosiris

INTRODUCTION TO HELLENISTIC ASTROLOGY Part One - Zodiac
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121654

INTRODUCTION TO HELLENISTIC ASTROLOGY Part Two -Seven Stars
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121671

INTRODUCTION TO HELLENISTIC ASTROLOGY Part THREE - Theoretical Consideration
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121676

INTRODUCTION TO HELLENISTIC ASTROLOGY Part Four - Nativities
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121677
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Unread 07-17-2019, 01:18 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

*


In ancient times Jupiter and Saturn were
the outermost known planets
and were called by astrologers of old the "Great Chronocrators".
For millennia
the alignment of these two planets
has been regarded
as a significator of great social
economic
and
political watersheds - historic turning points, if you will.
hence
referred to as
"The Great Conjunction"
clearly then
Juiter Saturn conjunctions have been charted for millenia
by MUNDANE ASTROLOGERS

by the way
Mundane astrology is very Hierarchical
thus
Starting with the Grand Conjunction
your Natal Chart would be 7th in the pecking order
and
Horary is below your Natal Chart
and is lowest on the Mundane Hierarchy


i.e.
MUNDANE ASTROLOGY HIERARCHY

Grand Conjunction 1702
21 May 1702
4:01:37 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York
074°W00'37"
40°N42'26"

Great Mutation (Earth) 1802
17 Jul 1802
5:52:26 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York

Great Conjunction 2000
28 May 2000
11:07:39 AM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York

Great Malefic 2004
25 May 2004
1:20 AM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York
....is currently the operating Malefic Chart
and then the following will become operative....
Great Malefic 2034
26 Jun 2034
5:33:42 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


2019 Aries Ingress
20 Mar 2019
Federal Hall, New York


INSERT YOUR NATAL CHART HERE
That is where your place is in the hierarchy of charts.
INSERT HORARY CHART HERE
That is where horary charts are in the hierarchy of charts

Note: Relocate the chart(s) to your country
and
for maximum accuracy, use the "foundation point"
eg: Romania = Alba Iulia, not Bucharesti
Japan = Kyoto, not Tokyo
Spain = Toledo, not Madrid
and so on
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Unread 07-17-2019, 01:29 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Reconstruction of Ptolemaic Terms

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
I posted it on skyscript, I might as well post it here.

1. Order:
Aries
Jupiter is first because of triangle
Venus is second because of house and triangle in Taurus
Mercury is third because of house and triangle in Gemini
Mars is fourth because of house
Saturn is fifth

Taurus
Venus is first because of triangle and house
Mercury is second because of house and triangle in Gemini
Jupiter is third because it is benefic
Saturn is fourth because it has triangle in Gemini
Mars is fifth

Gemini
Mercury is first because of triangle and house
Jupiter is second because of exaltation in Cancer
Venus is third because it is benefic
Saturn is fourth because of triangle in the same sign
Mars is fifth

Cancer
Mars is first because of triangle and house
Jupiter is second because of exaltation
Mercury is third because of exaltation and house in Virgo
Venus is fourth because of triangle in Virgo
Saturn is fifth

Leo
Jupiter is first because of triangle
Mercury is second because of exaltation and house in Virgo
Venus is third because of triangle in Virgo
Saturn is fourth because of house
Mars is fifth

Virgo
Mercury is first because of exaltation and house
Venus is second because of triangle
Jupiter is third because it is benefic
Saturn is fourth because of exaltation and triangle in Libra
Mars is fifth

Libra
Saturn is first because of exaltation and triangle
Mercury is second because of triangle
Venus is third because of house
Jupiter is fourth because it is benefic
Mars is fifth

Scorpio
Mars is first because of triangle and house
Jupiter is second because of triangle and house in Sagittarius
Venus is third because of triangle in Capricorn
Mercury is fourth because it is common
Saturn is fifth

Sagittarius
Jupiter is first because of triangle and house
Venus is second because of triangle in Capricorn
Mercury is third because of triangle in Aquarius
Mars is fourth because of exaltation in Capricorn the following sign
Saturn is fifth

Capricorn
Venus is first because of triangle
Mercury is second because of triangle in Aquarius
Jupiter is third because it is benefic
Mars is fourth because of exaltation in the same sign
Saturn is fifth

Aquarius
Saturn is first because of house and triangle
Mercury is second because of triangle
Venus is third because of exaltation in Pisces
Jupiter is fourth because it is benefic
Mars is fifth

Pisces
Venus is first because of exaltation
Jupiter is second because of house
Mercury is third because it is common
Mars is fourth because it has house in Aries
Saturn is fifth

In this way, the order of the following signs was consistently followed, in accord with the instructions by Ptolemy. Some are misled by the statement ''And again in order, those that have two lordships each are preferred to the one which has but one in the same sign'' to assign the malefics differently (for example Mars before Saturn in Gemini or after Saturn in Capricorn), but they do not follow the instruction of the order of following signs of the previous sentence. This instruction seems to refer to Cancer and Leo where Mercury has one more familiarity than Venus. Thus six terms end with Saturn, and six terms end with Mars, two with beginnings.

2. Assign + 1 degree to those that have two familiarities in one of the signs of a quadrant:
Saturn receives 6 in Leo, Virgo, Libra, Sagittarius, Capricorn and Aquarius
Jupiter receives 8 in Libra, Capricorn and Sagittarius
Mars receives 6 in Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Virgo, Libra and Scorpio
Venus receives 8 in Aries, Taurus and Pisces
Mercury receives 7 in Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo and Virgo

3. Assign the remaining degrees accordingly, subtracting from the slowest whenever possible:
In Aries, we subtract 1 from Saturn and 1 from Jupiter
In Taurus, we subtract 2 from Saturn and 1 from Jupiter
In Gemini, we subtract 1 from Saturn and 1 from Jupiter
In Cancer, we subtract 2 from Saturn
In Leo, we subtract 1 from Jupiter and 1 from Venus
(Mars gets 5 in all his remaining terms for 66 - 36 = 30 : 5 degrees = 6 equal terms)
In Virgo, we subtract 2 from Jupiter and 1 from Venus
In Libra, we subtract 2 from Venus and 1 from Mercury (those have one, but Venus is slower)
In Scorpio, we subtract 2 from Saturn
In Sagittarius, we subtract 1 from Venus and 1 from Mercury
In Capricorn, we subtract 1 from Jupiter
In Aquarius, we subtract 1 from Jupiter
In Pisces, we subtract 1 from Saturn

In this way, we only subtract proportionally from Venus and Mercury only when we can't subtract from Saturn and Jupiter. I believe Ptolemy intended his instructions to be sufficient in this way.

Sources:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...os/1B*.html#20
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/pdf/Hould...lemy_terms.pdf
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=125018
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

*

ANIMODAR


https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...918#post971918

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post


1. Examine the preceding syzygy, whether it was a new moon or a full moon.
2. If the preceding syzygy was a new moon, observe its degree at the time of the nativity.
3. If the preceding syzygy was a full moon by night, we observe the degree of the syzygy. By day, we observe the degree opposite the syzygy, which is the degree of the luminary above the horizon (in that case the Sun).
4. Observe the degree at the approximate time of the nativity, and give a point to any of the following planets with rulership over the degree at the time of birth (see http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...3A*.html#note9)



5. Give a point to any planet in the same sign as the degree or in sign with some aspect (sextile, square, trine or opposition) to it.
6. If one star is familiar with the degree in all or most of these ways, whatever degree of its sign it is passing at the time of birth, the same numerical degree is rising (Asc) or culminating (Mc) at the time of birth.
7. If two or more stars are predominators, observe the one that is closer to the approximate time. If it so happens that we do not have the nearest hour of birth, we can establish it through combination of accidental qualities. The foregoing rectification is for time with approximate hour.
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Thanks JUPITERASC for your posts I will go through them in great detail slowly.
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post


Thanks JUPITERASC for your posts
I will go through them in great detail slowly.

those prepared to read, study AND diligently practice
gradually gain understanding of traditional methods
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Apotelesmatica

1. Powers
Sun is heating and moderately drying
Moon is moistening and moderately heating
Phainon is cooling and moderately drying
Phaethon is heating and moderately moistening
Pyroeis is drying and burning
Phosphoros is moistening and moderately heating
Stilbon is alternating between moistening and drying

2. Qualities
Moon, Phaethon and Phosphoros are beneficent
Phainon and Pyroeis are maleficent
Sun and Stilbon are common

3. Natures
Sun, Phainon, Phaethon and Pyroeis are masculine
Moon and Phosphoros are feminine
Stilbon is common

Morning planets are masculine
Evening planets are feminine

Midheaven, post-ascension of Midheaven, pre-ascension of Hour-Marker are masculine
Hour-Marker, post-ascension of Hour-Marker, pre-ascension of Anti-Midheaven are feminine
Anti-Midheaven, post-ascension of Anti-Midheaven, pre-ascension of Setting are masculine
Setting, post-ascension of Setting, pre-ascension of Midheaven are feminine

4. Sects
Sun, Phainon and Phaethon are diurnal
Moon, Pyroeis and Phosphoros are nocturnal
Stilbon is common, diurnal as morning planet, nocturnal as evening planet

5. Appearances
Moon is moistening from appearance to first quarter
Moon is heating from first quarter to full moon
Moon is drying from full moon to last quarter
Moon is cooling from last quarter to occultation

Phainon, Phaethon and Pyroeis are moistening from rising to first station
Phainon, Phaethon and Pyroeis are heating from first station to evening rising
Phainon, Phaethon and Pyroeis are drying from evening rising to second station
Phainon, Phaethon and Pyroeis are cooling from second station to setting
Powers persist for the most part, but are changed in quantity by configurations

6. Colours
Black colours are predominated by Phainon
White colours are predominated by Phaethon
Reddish colours are predominated by Pyroeis
Yellow colours are predominated by Phosphoros
Varied colours are predominated by Stilbon
Admixtures indicate admixtures of natures

7. Groups
Spring, First Age and Setting are moistening
Summer, Second Age and Midheaven are heating
Autumn, Third Age and Hour-Marker are drying
Winter, Fourth Age and Anti-Midheaven are cooling

8. Places
1 and 7 are equinoctial
4 and 10 are solstitial
2, 5, 8, 11 are solid
3, 6, 9, 12 are dual

9. Types
1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 are masculine and diurnal
2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 are feminine and nocturnal

10. Aspects
Hexagons are harmonious, one-third
Tetragons are disharmonious, one-half
Trigons are harmonious, two-thirds
Diameters are disharmonious, straight line

11. Commanding and Obeying Places
Places equidistant from the same equinoctial place are commanding and obeying, with the places in the summer hemisphere commanding because they make the day longer than the night, and the places in the winter hemisphere obeying because they make the day shorter than the night.

12. Places with Equal Power
Places equidistant from the same solstitial place are with equal power, for they control the same hours of the day and hours of the night when the Sun ingresses into either of them.

13. Disjunct Places
Places without aspect are disjunct.

14. Houses
5 is house of Sun, summery, masculine
4 is house of Moon, summery, feminine
10 and 11 are houses of Phainon, wintry, disjunct
9 and 12 are houses of Phaethon, windy, trigon
1 and 8 are houses of Pyroeis, stormy, tetragon
2 and 7 are houses of Phosphoros, temperate, hexagon
3 and 6 are houses of Stilbon, changeable, adjacent

15. Trigons
1, 5, 9 is triangle of Sun by day, Phaethon by night, northern wind
2, 6, 10 is triangle of Phosphoros by day, Moon by night, southern wind
3, 7, 11 is triangle of Phainon by day, Stilbon by night, eastern wind
4, 8, 12 is triangle of Pyroeis by day, Pyroeis by night, western wind

16. Elevations
Sun is elevated in 1 and depressed in 7, corresponding to the increase and decrease of heat
Moon is elevated in 2 and depressed in 8, corresponding to the increase and decrease of light
Phainon is elevated in 7 and depressed in 1, corresponding to the increase and decrease of cold
Phaethon is elevated in 4 and depressed in 10, corresponding to the power of fecund north winds
Pyroeis is elevated in 10 and depressed in 4, corresponding to the power of fiery south winds
Phosphoros is elevated in 12 and depressed in 6, corresponding to the proper power of moisture
Stilbon is elevated in 6 and depressed in 12, corresponding to the proper power of dryness

17. Terms
1 Phaethon 6 Phosphoros 8 Stilbon 7 Pyroeis 5 Phainon 4
2 Phosphoros 8 Stilbon 7 Phaethon 6 Phainon 3 Pyroeis 6
3 Stilbon 7 Phaethon 6 Phosphoros 7 Phainon 4 Pyroeis 6
4 Pyroeis 6 Phaethon 7 Stilbon 7 Phosphoros 7 Phainon 3
5 Phaethon 6 Stilbon 7 Phosphoros 6 Phainon 6 Pyroeis 5
6 Stilbon 7 Phosphoros 6 Phaethon 5 Phainon 6 Pyroeis 6
7 Phainon 6 Stilbon 5 Phosphoros 5 Phaethon 8 Pyroeis 6
8 Pyroeis 6 Phaethon 8 Phosphoros 7 Stilbon 6 Phainon 3
9 Phaethon 8 Phosphoros 6 Stilbon 5 Pyroeis 5 Phainon 6
10 Phosphoros 7 Stilbon 6 Phaethon 6 Pyroeis 5 Phainon 6
11 Phainon 6 Stilbon 6 Phosphoros 7 Phaethon 6 Pyroeis 5
12 Phosphoros 8 Phaethon 7 Stilbon 6 Pyroeis 5 Phainon 4

18. Proper Faces
Planets are with their proper faces when they keep to the Sun or the Moon the same place as with their corresponding houses, provided that they are western to the Sun, and eastern to the Moon.

19. Thrones
Planets with two or more of the aforementioned familiarities are with their thrones, for then their power is most increased in effectiveness by the similarity and cooperation of the kindred places.

20. Rejoicing
They rejoice when even though they have no familiarity with the places themselves, nevertheless they have it with planets of the same sect, though in this case the sympathy arises less directly. If the planets are found with alien places belonging to the opposite sect, a great part of their proper power becomes paralyzed, for the temperament which arises from the dissimilarity of the places produces a different and adulterated nature, and both happen with any of the four familiarities.

21. Applications and Separations
In general, those which precede are applying to those that follow, and those that follow are said to be separating from those that precede, when the interval between them is not over 15°. Such a relation is taken to exist whether it happens by bodily conjunction or through one of the aspects, except that with respect to the bodily applications and separations of the heavenly bodies, it is of use also to observe their latitudes, in order that only those passages may be accepted which are of the same side of the ecliptic. In the case of applications and separations by aspect, however, such a practice is superfluous because all rays always fall and similarly converge from every direction upon the same point, that is, the centre of the earth.

22. Enclosures and Interceptions
Every planet separating from one planet and applying to another is enclosed, such configurations are beneficent and maleficent depending on the planets and aspects involved. Interceptions occur with bodily application, bodily separation or ray within the intermediate degrees of enclosures.

23. Overcoming
Planets on the right overcome the planets on the left with superior hexagon, tetragon and trigon.

24. Attendance
Sun and Moon are attended by other planets which are present with the same or following places.

25. Ascensions
Take the pre-ascending, ascending and post-ascending places, 5° pre-ascending the Hour-Marker and 25° post-ascending, proportionally to the method of hourly trisections, likewise the places of Midheaven, Setting, Anti-Midheaven, pre-ascensions and post-ascensions.

26. Lot of Fortune
Take the so-called Lot of Fortune, always the amount of the number of degrees, both by day and by night, which is the distance from the Sun to the Moon, and which extends to an equal distance from the Hour-Marker with the order of the following places, in order that, whatever relation and aspect the Sun bears to the Hour-Marker, the Moon may bear to the Hour-Marker of the Moon.

27. Universe
Morning additive planets are powerful
Evening subtractive planets are weakened

28. Nativity
The Midheaven, Hour-Marker, post-ascension of Midheaven, post-ascension of Hour-Marker are powerful. Setting, Anti-Midheaven, post-ascension of Setting, post-ascension of Anti-Midheaven are moderated. Pre-ascension of Midheaven, pre-ascension of Anti-Midheaven, pre-ascension of Setting, pre-ascension of Hour-Marker are powerless. This arrangement of power in this order is obvious from their position relative to the angles and the horizon, and from their aspects with the two superior angles, the Midheaven and the Hour-Marker.

Source
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...blos/home.html

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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

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CALCULATING PROFECTIONS IN HELLENISTIC ASTROLOGY



Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post


One of the most widespread time-lord techniques in Hellenistic astrology is referred today as annual profections. The Hellenistic astrologers did not have a specific name like most of their techniques, although some refer to a method for “determining the lord of the year”. There are many variations of the so-called annual profections that do not focus on a single houseruler, and for the most part there is lack of agreement on how to calculate monthly, daily and hourly types of profection.

Annual Profections
The earliest surviving reference to profections is found in the third book of Astronomica by the Roman poet Manilius. According to Manilius, the first year belongs to the sign of the Sun, while the next and subsequent years belong to the signs that follow in zodiacal order. The rationale given by Manilius for using the Sun is that it takes one year for the Sun to complete one course. This method to annual profections seems to be unique to Manilius.

The Anthology by Vettius Valens contains an abundance of different time-lord procedures. One chapter, attributed to a “Hermetic” source (Valens, 4.27) also suggests counting from the Sun, although only when it is found at an angle. This chapter describes a predomination method that considers four possible releasing places. If the Sun does not happen to be angular, one begins from the Moon if it is at the “degree of an angle”. If both are inapplicable, one begins from the Lot of Fortune if it happens to be angular. If all three points are inapplicable as specified, one counts from the Ascendant. If both luminaries are “approaching the angles“, one should start counting from the luminary that is of the sect in favour. The remaining of the chapter describes more predomination rules, although the passage is short and fragmentary.

Manilius states that some approved of an alternative approach where they counted years, months, days and hours from the Ascendant. This is the most common method of annual profections in the Hellenistic tradition and remained such in the Arabic tradition. It is mentioned by Dorotheus of Sidon, Firmicus Maternus, Paulus Alexandrinus and Hephaistio of Thebes. David Pingree translates the Arabic passage of the fourth book by Dorotheus as follows:

When a native is born, the lord of the year is the lord of the house [ascendent] in which the native was born. Thus count from the ascendent a year for each sign until you reach the year which you desire; the lord of that house is the lord of the year. Look at the lord of this sign, whether it is a benefic or a malefic, and in the base nativity how its position was and in which foundation it was. From the base-nativity is known what is concerning him [the native] at the beginning of the year, and the beginning of the year is always when the Sun enters the beginning of the minute in which it was on the day of the native's nativity. (Pingree, Dorotheus, 4)

Although Firmicus Maternus (Mathesis, 2.27) states that one should count from the rising sign, he mentions that some astrologers count from the Sun for day births, and from the Moon for night births. This presents additional evidence for counting from other places besides the rising sign based on considerations of predomination. Claudius Ptolemy in book 4, chapter 10 of the Tetrabiblos also describes annual profections from each of the releasing places he outlines previously in the same chapter. Rhetorius of Egypt in chapter 54 of the Compendium also mentions releasing not only from the Ascendant, but also from the Sun, the Moon, and the Lot of Fortune. A brief passage in CCAG 2.212.30-213.1 mentions Rhetorius in relation to counting from the parents’ lots for that topic.

Most astrologers focus on the planetary condition of the domicile ruler of the sign the year has come to. Some astrologers such as Dorotheus and Rhetorius also mention examining the sign and its configurations, and transits in relation to the quality of the year. In Books 4, 5 and 6 of the Anthology, Valens introduces a more complex method of profections, which evidently is partially derived from a lost work of an earlier author known as Critodemus.

The summary of Cridodemus (CCAG 8.3.102) mentions briefly that he dealt with the giving over (paradosis) of one planet to another, which sounds similar to the delineations given in Anthology 4.17-24. This does not represent conclusive evidence that Vettius Valens took his delineations for annual profections from Critodemus since the consideration of which planet is imparting to another is also used in the exaltation method of Balbilus, decennials (referred to as the method of dodekatemoria by Valens) and ingresses. Thus the chapters on the effects of the transmissions of the Ascendant, the planets, and the four lots in Valens could be unique to him.

According to Valens, one can profect from every planet, place and lot, and not just from the Ascendant, although he does emphasize the luminary of the sect in favour, the Ascendant and the other luminary. What seems to be different from other authors, is that the planets that occupy the sign take over the role of the houseruler. The releaser handles over the year to the houseruler only if the sign is empty.

In Book V, Valens introduces an elaboration of the previous rationale. The giving over of one point to another is also active in the years of the native that are multiple of the distance of signs, both taken as ordinal numbers. For example an Ascendant in Virgo would profect to Mars in Libra every second year from birth, and to Jupiter in Sagittarius every fourth year from birth. Both Valens and the Liber Hermetis credit Critodemus for a table of numerical profections of the Moon in relation to health crises. Critodemus emphasizes profections to planets in years which are multiple of 3 for Saturn, 9 for Jupiter, 7 for Mars, 18 for the Sun, 5 for Venus, 8 for Mercury and 13 for the Moon. The rationale behind those numbers is unknown. Valens says that if the year is not composite, one should extend the preceding interval as active for that given year.

Another method attributed to Hermes (Valens, 4.29) says that one should count from the Sun for mental matters, from the Moon for physical matters and the mother, and from the Lot of Fortune. These texts indicate that approaches to annual profections in the Hellenistic tradition were quite varied and often few starting points were used depending on the topic. Hermes states that one should use the Sothic year, which was equivalent to the year mentioned in Dorotheus.

Monthly Profections
There is even greater difference of opinion when it comes to monthly profections, perhaps partially because of disagreement on what period of time constitutes one month. Manilius states that one should begin counting from the Moon, and the rationale given is that it takes one month for the Moon to complete its course. Strangely, given his rationale for annual profections, Manilius later implies that there are 12 months in a year. Perhaps “course” is meant in the sense of an approximate or idealized synodic month rather than as the length of a sidereal month.

Most manuscripts of the Tetrabiblos present 28 day monthly profections, albeit from the sign the year has come to. This makes the domicile ruler of the sign assigned the year - time-lord over the first and the thirteenth month of that year. 28 days approximates the lunar month, and 13 months make 364 days which is approximately the length of the year. In the Arabic tradition, Al-Biruni describes monthly profections as consisting of 28 days 1 hour and 51 minutes to make it align with the 365 day year. Only two conflicting MSS. of the Tetrabiblos describe profections using 30 day months (Robbins, 1940).

Paulus and Hephaistio also describe profecting every month from the sign assigned the year, although they do not specify the length of the month. Since Hephaistio specifies that the daily profections are counted every two and one half days, it seems reasonable to make the assumption that he meant a year consisting of 12 months, each comprising approximately 30 days. This variation became the most prevalent one in the Arabic, Medieval and Renaissance traditions.

This approach of counting signs from the profected signs seems relatively absent in the rest of the Hellenistic tradition and its later popularity may have been partially influenced by Ptolemy. Most of the earlier authors present lot-like calculations for finding the sign of the month. One variant (Valens, 4.29) has a brief passage attributed to Hermes which says to take the distance from the transiting Sun to the Moon at the nativity, and then count the same distance from the sign assigned the year (profected Ascendant).

Similar calculation is later attributed to Nechepso by Valens (Anthology, 5.4), although it counts from the Ascendant of the nativity instead of the profected Ascendant. Levente László in private communication affirmed that the translation by Robert Schmidt and Mark Riley on the second part of the passage are mistaken. Schmidt and Riley both mistook the calculation being given for the operative “days” (τὰς δὲ ἡμέρας) for implying reversal of the monthly calculation for “day” births. This translation is also inconsistent conceptually, since it would imply that the diurnal calculation is thirteen times faster than the nocturnal calculation.

Firmicus Maternus (Mathesis, 2.28) does not even mention monthly profections. Instead, he describes an alternative technique using a division of the year. Beginning with the lord of the year, one assigns the days of the year among the planets following in zodiacal order, each star given a specific amount of days in proportion to its minor recurrence years. In other words, the year is divided by the sum of the minor years and multiplied by the minor years of each star. Annual divisions are also described by Valens (Valens, 4.30) and Hephaistio (Apotelesmatics, 2.36) with slight variations of the exact length of time because only Valens calculates the hours.

Hephaistio mentions an alternative division in which each sign is assigned the minor years of the domicile ruler, beginning from the sign that is given the year, although Saturn is assigned only 30 days, with the reasoning given by Hephaistio is that the two domiciles of Saturn are adjacent. After 184 days, the same division is repeated until the year is completed. Valens mentions that some astrologers made “monthly” forecasts according to the houserulers of New and Full Moon, although his opinion is that the transiting Sun foretells the outcome of the month due to arousing the power of signs and time-lords (Anthology, 5.4).

Daily and Hourly Profections
Few astrologers describe daily profections and even fewer mention hourly profections. Manilius says one should count daily and hourly profections from the Ascendant with each sign being given a day twice a month (2 1/2 days?) and one hour once a day. Goold (1977) suggests that double-hours are meant, rather than planetary hours.

Ptolemy uses 12 daily profections in a month with most MSS. giving the length of 2 1/3 days, while only those that give the 30 day monthly profections report a length of 2 1/2 days. Paulus also says that one should count daily profections from the sign assigned the month, albeit every sign given one day rather than 1/12 of a month. Hephaistio gives the length of 2 1/2 days.

Valens describes a method of multiplying the years of the nativity by 5 1/4, adding the days from birth, and dividing the result by twelve, giving one to each sign. He says that some astrologers count from the sign just following the Moon. This handy calculation yields one sign per day. Dorotheus gives a lot-like formula, saying one should measure the distance from the transiting Sun to the transiting Moon, and the same distance from the Ascendant at the nativity.

Different calculation is attributed to Nechepso by Valens (Anthology, 5.4). The operative day is determined by counting from the transiting Moon to the Sun at the nativity, and then the same distance from the Ascendant. The length of these two profections vary according to the speed of the Moon. Perhaps the appeal of these lots is that they dispense with the ambiguity of calendars and are instead based on concurrent astronomical positions and planetary revolutions.

Bibliography
Dorothei Sidonii Carmen Astrologicum, ed. David Pingree, Teubner, Leipzig, 1976.
Firmicus Maternus, Ancient Astrology, Theory and Practice: Matheseos Libri VIII, trans. Jean Rhys Bram, Noyes Press, Park Ridge, New Jersey, 1975.
Greenbaum, Dorian Gieseler (trans.), Late Classical Astrology: Paulus Alexandrinus and Olympiodorus, with the Scholia from Later Commentators, ed. Robert Hand, ARHAT, Reston, VA, 2001.
Hephaistio of Thebes, Apotelesmatics, Book II, trans. Robert H. Schmidt, The Golden Hind Press, Cumberland, MD, 1998.
Kraus, P. al-Biruni: The Book of Instruction in the Elements of the Art of Astrology, transl. by R. Ramsay Wright (Book Review). Orientalistische Literaturzeitung, 38, 692, 1935.
Manilius, Astronomica, ed. and trans. G. P. Goold, Loeb Classical Library, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, 1977
Pingree, David, Vettii Valentis Antiocheni anthologiarum libri novem, B.G. Teubner, Leipzig, 1986.
Ptolemy, Tetrabiblos, ed. and trans. F. E. Robbins, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, 1940.
Rhetorius the Egyptian, trans. James Herschel Holden, American Federation of Astrologers, Tempe, Arizona, 2009.
Schmidt, Robert (trans.) and Robert Hand (ed.). The Astrological Record of the Early Sages in Greek, The Golden Hind Press, Berkeley Springs, WV, 1995.
Vettius Valens, The Anthology, Book V & VI, trans. Robert Schmidt, ed. Robert Hand, The Golden Hind Press, Cumberland, MD, 1997.
Vettius Valens, The Anthology, trans. Mark T. Riley, online, December, 2010.
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