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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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Ptolemaic Dignities



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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

1. Domiciles are similar to all authors.
2. Triangles are made according to the Chaldean scheme. Mars is ruler both by day and night, though Venus cooperates by day, and the Moon cooperates by night.
3. Elevations and Depressions are similar to all authors, though Ptolemy rightly disagrees with those who have posited degrees.
4. Terms are constructed according to his adequate instructions, which are slightly different from other tables out there.
5. Ptolemy does not mention decans, he uses proper faces (1.23, 3.13 etc.), which are determined by whole-sign according to the solar and lunar halves (1.17).

I. Planet with two of the above are said to be in their ''chariots'' or ''thrones''.
II. Planets in their own places and in degrees of planets of their same sect rejoice.
III. Planets in unfamiliar places and in degrees of planets of the opposite sect are weak.

For example, Jupiter would be at the throne at 18 Libra if the Sun is in Gemini, or if the Moon is in Aquarius. The Sun in Aries or Leo by day would be in its throne, as would the Moon by night in Taurus.
For example by this scheme the Sun would rejoice in Sagittarius, Jupiter would in Aries, Venus would in Cancer, both by and by night, most especially if they occupy the terms of planets of the same sect, diurnal or nocturnal.
For example by this scheme the Sun would be weak in the last six degrees of Taurus, as would Venus in the last six degrees of Sagittarius. Planets in their depressions are always weak with respect to the universe. This power is mixed with the one with respect to the nativity, weak planet rising or culminating is still moderately powerful, even as the planet on throne is if it is declining. Ptolemy does not mention detriment, instead he employed an additional seasonal scheme for determination of power (see http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...os/1B*.html#10)

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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

You have headed column one PLACE rather than SIGN
and
column two HOUSE in preference to LORD
that's interesting
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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
You have headed column one PLACE rather than SIGN
and
column two HOUSE in preference to LORD
that's interesting
Well, I prefer place to sign because of the latter being connected with the constellations, whereas Ptolemy explains their power with respect to the seasons. I prefer house to lord, since every planet under the respective column, bar proper face, is lord. Indeed, according to Ptolemy, the elevation, triangle and term lords have equal or similar power as the house lord. This is contrary to the later authors, who said house is + 5, exaltation is + 4, triangle is + 3, term is + 2, and ''face'' is + 1.

But Ptolemy is correct, since there is no reason to the prefer the lordship of Venus over the lordship of Saturn in Libra for example. Exaltations, triangles and terms are also houses, and are used interchangeably by all Hellenistic authors.

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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Well, I prefer place to sign
because of the latter being connected with the constellations,
whereas Ptolemy explains their power with respect to the seasons.
constellation conundrums
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

I prefer house to lord, since every planet under the respective column, bar proper face, is lord.
so house of Mars, house of Venus and so on
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Indeed, according to Ptolemy, the elevation, triangle and term lords have equal or similar power as the house lord.
This is contrary to the later authors, who said house is + 5, exaltation is + 4, triangle is + 3, term is + 2, and ''face'' is + 1.
scribes diluted/mistranslated/misunderstood texts as time passed
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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

Quote:
so house of Mars, house of Venus and so on
Correct, the only peculiarity one may face is elevation and depression instead of exaltation and fall. The latter have different connotation that I sometimes decline to use.

Quote:
scribes diluted/mistranslated/misunderstood texts as time passed
That is partly correct, but when it comes to the table, they seem to have been left alone without a table in the original text (in my opinion), hence the diversity of Ptolemaic tables.
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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Correct,
the only peculiarity one may face is elevation and depression
instead of exaltation and fall.
The latter have different connotation
that I sometimes decline to use.
Exaltaltion has religious connotations
as does Fall aka "fall from grace" et al
whereas in contrast

Elevation and Depression
is terminology with connotations to psychology
nevertheless
Elevation and Depression
are preferable descriptive terms
to the previous labels
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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

Quote:
16. Elevations
Sun is elevated in 1 and depressed in 7, corresponding to the increase and decrease of heat
Moon is elevated in 2 and depressed in 8, corresponding to the increase and decrease of light
Phainon is elevated in 7 and depressed in 1, corresponding to the increase and decrease of cold
Phaethon is elevated in 4 and depressed in 10, corresponding to the power of fecund north winds
Pyroeis is elevated in 10 and depressed in 4, corresponding to the power of fiery south winds
Phosphoros is elevated in 12 and depressed in 6, corresponding to the proper power of moisture
Stilbon is elevated in 6 and depressed in 12, corresponding to the proper power of dryness - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=125418
We do not accept an opposition to the domicile as affliction, nor an opposition to the triangle, nor an opposition to the term, since these oppositions do not experience the same kind of powers as the exaltation, that is to say, they are not polar, but rather confined to their specific portions of the ecliptic. One can immediately see this from the oppositions of similar triangles and terms, though to be sure, some of the detriments make sense by virtue of the opposition of seasons, for example Saturn in Cancer is weakened due to the heating summer and the disharmony of the nocturnal rulers, though this is not correct in other aspects, such as Venus in Aries, or even the magnitudes of the Sun in Aquarius compared to in Capricorn, by which I mean that they are similarly cooling, as is Saturn in Leo compared to Cancer in heat, but not in rulership.

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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
We do not accept an opposition to the domicile as affliction, nor an opposition to the triangle, nor an opposition to the term, since these oppositions do not experience the same kind of powers as the exaltation, that is to say, they are not polar, but rather confined to their specific portions of the ecliptic. One can immediately see this from the oppositions of similar triangles and terms, though to be sure, some of the detriments make sense by virtue of the opposition of seasons, for example Saturn in Cancer is weakened due to the heating summer and the disharmony of the nocturnal rulers.









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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
We do not accept an opposition to the domicile as affliction, nor an opposition to the triangle, nor an opposition to the term, since these oppositions do not experience the same kind of powers as the exaltation, that is to say, they are not polar, but rather confined to their specific portions of the ecliptic. One can immediately see this from the oppositions of similar triangles and terms, though to be sure, some of the detriments make sense by virtue of the opposition of seasons, for example Saturn in Cancer is weakened due to the heating summer and the disharmony of the nocturnal rulers, though this is not correct in other aspects, such as Venus in Aries, or even the magnitudes of the Sun in Aquarius compared to in Capricorn, by which I mean that they are similarly cooling, as is Saturn in Leo compared to Cancer in heat, but not in rulership.
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Apotelesmatica


16. Elevations
Sun is elevated in 1 and depressed in 7, corresponding to the increase and decrease of heat
Moon is elevated in 2 and depressed in 8, corresponding to the increase and decrease of light
Phainon is elevated in 7 and depressed in 1, corresponding to the increase and decrease of cold
Phaethon is elevated in 4 and depressed in 10, corresponding to the power of fecund north winds
Pyroeis is elevated in 10 and depressed in 4, corresponding to the power of fiery south winds
Phosphoros is elevated in 12 and depressed in 6, corresponding to the proper power of moisture
Stilbon is elevated in 6 and depressed in 12, corresponding to the proper power of dryness


Source
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...blos/home.html
and so

Elevation and Depression are INDEPENDENT of SIGN

irrrespective of whether that SIGN is Sidereal or otherwise
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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
and so

Elevation and Depression are INDEPENDENT of SIGN

irrrespective of whether that SIGN is Sidereal or otherwise
False, since the Sun causes the decrease of daylight and the beginning of autumn the second it ingresses into tropical Libra. The same applies to all planets, as the signs are the divisions of the seasons by three.
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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
We do not accept an opposition to the domicile as affliction, nor an opposition to the triangle, nor an opposition to the term, since these oppositions do not experience the same kind of powers as the exaltation, that is to say, they are not polar, but rather confined to their specific portions of the ecliptic. One can immediately see this from the oppositions of similar triangles and terms, though to be sure, some of the detriments make sense by virtue of the opposition of seasons, for example Saturn in Cancer is weakened due to the heating summer and the disharmony of the nocturnal rulers, though this is not correct in other aspects, such as Venus in Aries, or even the magnitudes of the Sun in Aquarius compared to in Capricorn, by which I mean that they are similarly cooling, as is Saturn in Leo compared to Cancer in heat, but not in rulership.
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Apotelesmatica


16. Elevations
Sun is elevated in 1 and depressed in 7, corresponding to the increase and decrease of heat
Moon is elevated in 2 and depressed in 8, corresponding to the increase and decrease of light
Phainon is elevated in 7 and depressed in 1, corresponding to the increase and decrease of cold
Phaethon is elevated in 4 and depressed in 10, corresponding to the power of fecund north winds
Pyroeis is elevated in 10 and depressed in 4, corresponding to the power of fiery south winds
Phosphoros is elevated in 12 and depressed in 6, corresponding to the proper power of moisture
Stilbon is elevated in 6 and depressed in 12, corresponding to the proper power of dryness


Source
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...blos/home.html
and so

Elevation and Depression are INDEPENDENT of SIGN

irrrespective of whether that SIGN is Sidereal or otherwise
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

False, since the Sun causes the decrease of daylight
and the beginning of autumn
the second it ingresses into tropical Libra.
not necessarily entirely false
only true for Northern Hemisphere
because
relevant to
Southern Hemisphere
Sun Ingress into tropical Libra = Spring

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
The same applies to all planets,
as the signs are the divisions of the seasons by three.
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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

JA, at the depression of the Sun in the Northern Hemisphere, you have its elevation for the antipode inhabitants of the Southern Hemisphere

Whether you call that bicameral Libra, or Libra or 7 or Bob for the North, and Aries or 1 or Josh for the South does not change reality.

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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

Inb4 Sun is exalted in Bob for both Hemispheres!!!
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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
We do not accept an opposition to the domicile as affliction, nor an opposition to the triangle, nor an opposition to the term, since these oppositions do not experience the same kind of powers as the exaltation, that is to say, they are not polar, but rather confined to their specific portions of the ecliptic. One can immediately see this from the oppositions of similar triangles and terms, though to be sure, some of the detriments make sense by virtue of the opposition of seasons, for example Saturn in Cancer is weakened due to the heating summer and the disharmony of the nocturnal rulers, though this is not correct in other aspects, such as Venus in Aries, or even the magnitudes of the Sun in Aquarius compared to in Capricorn, by which I mean that they are similarly cooling, as is Saturn in Leo compared to Cancer in heat, but not in rulership.
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Apotelesmatica


16. Elevations
Sun is elevated in 1 and depressed in 7, corresponding to the increase and decrease of heat
Moon is elevated in 2 and depressed in 8, corresponding to the increase and decrease of light
Phainon is elevated in 7 and depressed in 1, corresponding to the increase and decrease of cold
Phaethon is elevated in 4 and depressed in 10, corresponding to the power of fecund north winds
Pyroeis is elevated in 10 and depressed in 4, corresponding to the power of fiery south winds
Phosphoros is elevated in 12 and depressed in 6, corresponding to the proper power of moisture
Stilbon is elevated in 6 and depressed in 12, corresponding to the proper power of dryness


Source
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...blos/home.html
and so

Elevation and Depression are INDEPENDENT of SIGN

irrrespective of whether that SIGN is Sidereal or otherwise
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

False, since the Sun causes the decrease of daylight
and the beginning of autumn
the second it ingresses into tropical Libra.
not necessarily entirely false
only true for Northern Hemisphere
because
relevant to
Southern Hemisphere
Sun Ingress into tropical Libra = Spring
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

JA, at the depression of the Sun in the Northern Hemisphere,
you have its elevation for the antipode inhabitants of the Southern Hemisphere
I mentioned that light years ago

see my post above

i.e.
relevant to
Southern Hemisphere
Sun Ingress into tropical Libra = Spring
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Whether you call that bicameral Libra, or Libra or 7
or Bob for the North, and
Aries or 1 or Josh for the South does not change reality.
Quite
when Sun ingresses Northern Hemisphere Spring
Sun does not simultaneously ingress Southern Hemisphere Spring
instead
Sun ingresses Sothern Hemisphere Autumn

as I said earlier
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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Inb4 Sun is exalted in Bob for both Hemispheres!!!
clarify "Inb4"
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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
clarify "Inb4"
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=inb4
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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Inb4 Sun is exalted in Bob for both Hemispheres!!!
clarify "Inb4"
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Siriusly




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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

PtolemyFan,

What is the REASON to switch back to Tropical? I thought the ruler of Sidereal are not in their "original" place?

Pisces = Domicile of Saturn?
Cancer = Domicile of Mercury?

,Etc

Thx
R

R
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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

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PtolemyFan,

What is the REASON to switch back to Tropical? I thought the ruler of Sidereal are not in their "original" place?

Pisces = Domicile of Saturn?
Cancer = Domicile of Mercury?

,Etc

Thx
R

R
The REASON is C.
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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

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The REASON is C.
Succinct
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
The REASON is C.
"Neo" petosiris,

Well because of global warming the C "pattern" in the Northern Hemisphere is different now then back in Ptolemy era. While Aldebaran still in Taurus for over 2000 years now. Do you have any consideration on this, master?

R

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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

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Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post
"Neo" petosiris,

Well because of global warming the C "pattern" in the Northern Hemisphere is different now then back in Ptolemy era. While Aldebaran still in Taurus for over 2000 years now. Do you have any consideration on this, master?

R
The cosmic ambient that affects weather is the same as the ambient that affects the conception and nativity.
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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Succinct
He asked for THE REASON

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The cosmic ambient that affects weather is the same as the ambient that affects the conception and nativity.
Many have stumped upon this doctrine, since the time of Cicero, and ask why should we not follow the C at the time of birth, or the winds, or the rain etc. rather than the distant planets. We answer that the reason for this is that the current weather is dependent upon many other things, like geographical place, the season and the syzygy preceding the tropic, the month with the preceding new or full moon, and the day, and the hour etc., while the nativity is most affected by the exact current ambient, which although does not exercise preponderating effect upon the weather, for example the rising of Mars every day does not cause hot weather, but this is due to the fact of the higher aforementioned beginnings of the universe, where as the rising of Mars does indeed cause hot temperament and body of the nativity, since in some sense, the ambient does afflict preponderating influence upon the current environment, and likewise to the nativity, since it is an event and a beginning spanning seconds of time in that exact environment.

Last edited by petosiris; 04-07-2019 at 03:14 PM.
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Re: Ptolemaic Dignities

These ptolemaic dignities are rather good


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