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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 01-05-2019, 04:21 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Why does Mars Joy in H6?

Is it just pattern, or a logical reason?

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Unread 01-05-2019, 04:22 AM
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Re: Why does Mars Joy in H6?

Have you looked at the thema mundi?
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  #3  
Unread 01-05-2019, 04:26 AM
SunConjunctUranus SunConjunctUranus is offline
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Smile Re: Why does Mars Joy in H6?



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Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
The 6th house represents illness, slavery, and the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune (bad luck generally). Mars is quite at home there because he causes a lot of those things. That's why it's his joy.

Also, with Mars joying in the 6th, and Saturn joying in the 12th (both houses that don't see the ascendant), they can get up to mischief without you knowing about it until it's too late - which is often the case when you fall ill, or find someone has betrayed you.

On the good side, it's harder for planets to act in dark houses like that, so it's not as bad as having the malefics on an angle, where they have lots of power to wreak havoc.

Last edited by SunConjunctUranus; 01-05-2019 at 04:30 AM.
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Unread 01-05-2019, 04:31 AM
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Re: Why does Mars Joy in H6?

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Is it just pattern, or a logical reason?
Hey u stole my topic!

I am looking at the The Planetary Joys and the Origins of the Significations of the Houses and Triplicities by
Chris Brennan, right now.

Last edited by GemwDepth; 01-08-2019 at 02:03 AM.
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  #5  
Unread 01-05-2019, 04:43 AM
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Re: Why does Mars Joy in H6?

The better question is, when the malefic joys, does it become better, or worse?
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Unread 01-05-2019, 04:51 AM
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Smile Re: Why does Mars Joy in H6?

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The better question is, when the malefic joys, does it become better, or worse?
Do you see Mars as entirely Malefic, or with some redeeming characteristics?
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  #7  
Unread 01-05-2019, 04:57 AM
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Smile Re: Why does Mars Joy in H6?

There is a term in Vedic which called "uppachaya" houses. Where the malefic planet are joy in this house. Is that any correlation to Hellenistic Astrology?
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Unread 01-05-2019, 05:01 AM
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Re: Why does Mars Joy in H6?

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
The better question is, when the malefic joys, does it become better, or worse?
The short version of what I found on the shallow-web, is that the 6th was traditionally the house of open enemies (not the 7th). Which kind of make sense as it directly opposes the 12th, your hidden enemies. Since Mars is the warrior energy. It gives the native much courage to battle and destroy your open enemies. Hence the ‘joy’ factor.

There’s gotta be more to this theory though, backed up by examples, patterns, and how they reached that conclusion.

I’ve noticed people with Jupiter or Venus in the 6th are usually well thought of at work, and are quite lucky there. Does that mean they have no open enemies? Perhaps that’s not the best example, as a benefic anywhere produce some benefit to that house.

Last edited by GemwDepth; 01-05-2019 at 05:09 AM.
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  #9  
Unread 01-05-2019, 05:07 AM
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Re: Why does Mars Joy in H6?

First, not all Hellenistic authors mention the joys. For example, Ptolemy makes no mention of them (although he does use the names of the places a few times, but perhaps for clarity).

Second, those that do, they do not always agree on whether the malefics in their joys are very good or very bad. Valens wants the malefics in the good places of V and XI, saying they do not do bad, but he says they do worst in the bad places of VI and XII (double negative does not make a positive). Paulus on the other hand says that the malefics in their joys bring good fortune if they are also favorably placed. It basically became the medieval dignity point. Valens seems to treat of those places not as dignity considerations, but as places influenced and controlled by the rulers that ''rejoice'' there.

Last edited by petosiris; 01-05-2019 at 05:09 AM.
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  #10  
Unread 01-05-2019, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
First, not all Hellenistic authors mention the joys. For example, Ptolemy makes no mention of them (although he does use the names of the places a few times, but perhaps for clarity).

Second, those that do, they do not always agree on whether the malefics in their joys are very good or very bad. Valens wants the malefics in the good places of V and XI, saying they do not do bad, but he says they do worst in the bad places of VI and XII (double negative does not make a positive). Paulus on the other hand says that the malefics in their joys bring good fortune if they are also favorably placed. It basically became the medieval dignity point.
Doesnít Obama have a dignified Saturn in H12 for example?
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Unread 01-05-2019, 05:11 AM
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Re: Why does Mars Joy in H6?

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Doesnít Obama have a dignified Saturn in H12 for example?
In the tropical zodiac, yes. In the sidereal zodiac with whole signs, the houseruler of the preceding Full Moon is in its domicile and rising.
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  #12  
Unread 01-05-2019, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
In the tropical zodiac, yes. In the sidereal zodiac with whole signs, the houseruler of the preceding Full Moon is in its domicile and rising.
It looks like my Moon/Saturn is moved into the 1st house in sidereal whole signs. Not sure I can sign on to such an upgrade!

Last edited by Starsareround; 01-05-2019 at 05:21 AM.
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  #13  
Unread 01-05-2019, 05:20 AM
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use your imagination!
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  #14  
Unread 01-05-2019, 11:59 AM
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Re: Why does Mars Joy in H6?

I was so close to felt the Joy instead I am sad now. My Mars very near to 6th House.

BTW, What type of Joy Mars can give a person if in his/her 6th House ?
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  #15  
Unread 01-05-2019, 12:05 PM
SunConjunctUranus SunConjunctUranus is offline
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Talking Re: Why does Mars Joy in H6?

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Originally Posted by Somna7H View Post
I was so close to felt the Joy instead I am sad now. My Mars very near to 6th House.

BTW, What type of Joy Mars can give a person if in his/her 6th House ?
Yours in V Sonma, you probably spend too much time on gambling.
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  #16  
Unread 01-05-2019, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post
Yours in V Sonma, you probably spend too much time on gambling.
Strange but I'm don't gamble.
Is Transit or Dasa indicate that ?
Mars or 5th Lord Dasa/Transit ?
Thank you!
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  #17  
Unread 01-05-2019, 03:41 PM
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Re: Why does Mars Joy in H6?

Somna
My Saturn is in really bad shape from both Vedic and Western perspectives. Yet I have a successful, creative career and healthy, smart children. Yes, Iím divorced and etc etc but Iím not incarcerated/ hospitalized/ suicidal. Itís possible to still make the most of what you have.
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Unread 01-06-2019, 03:31 PM
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Get back to astrology

All,

Please get back to astrology. I have deleted the non-astrological comments. This appears to be a Traditional astrology issue, so I've moved it there.

Back to astrology,

Tim
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  #19  
Unread 01-06-2019, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsareround View Post
Somna
My Saturn is in really bad shape from both Vedic and Western perspectives. Yet I have a successful, creative career and healthy, smart children. Yes, Iím divorced and etc etc but Iím not incarcerated/ hospitalized/ suicidal. Itís possible to still make the most of what you have.
My Saturn is Good enough from both Vedic and Western perspective. Even im running Saturn/Saturn nor. Don't know why my situation like this. I think Saturn is the reason of Delay so everything must be delayed ?


Talking about Mars. Dignity of Mars not Good but it Conjunct my 6th House Cusp. In certain house system Mars in 6th House and Conjunct Pluto too.
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Unread 01-07-2019, 02:48 AM
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Re: Why does Mars Joy in H6?

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Originally Posted by Somna7H View Post
My Saturn is Good enough from both Vedic and Western perspective. Even im running Saturn/Saturn nor. Don't know why my situation like this. I think Saturn is the reason of Delay so everything must be delayed ?

Talking about Mars. Dignity of Mars not Good but it Conjunct my 6th House Cusp. In certain house system Mars in 6th House and Conjunct Pluto too.
if you read the thread you shall notice that a moderator
has moved thread to traditional board so dwarf planetoid pluto is an irrelevance
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Unread 01-07-2019, 03:29 AM
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Quote:
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if you read the thread you shall notice that a moderator
has moved thread to traditional board so dwarf planetoid pluto is an irrelevance
Sorry. I will be careful next time.
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Unread 01-07-2019, 04:49 AM
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Re: Why does Mars Joy in H6?

There are several theories on planetary joys. I think they stem from Egyptian mythology about the transit of the sun/pharoah/soul through the afterlife. However, the ancient Hellenists love to rationalize and systemetize astrology, so a lot of that magical underlay was lost.

Basically the Hellenists assigned values to the houses based on their strength.Strength related to angularity (1st, 10th, followed by the 7th and 4th,) and relationship to the 1st house as defined by the major Ptolemaic aspects. The 12th, 8th, and 6th houses were inconjunct, unlike the other houses that sat in a sextile, trine, square, or opposition relationship to the first.

The inconjunct houses were the "bad" ones. Anciently, the 12th was the house of the bad spirit, the 11th was the house of the good spirit. The 5th was the house of good fortune, the 6th was the house of bad fortune. The 8th was the house of death (not good.)

The 12th appears as The Worst, and the greater malefic Saturn joys in this house. The lesser malefic Mars joys in the 6th house.

Just to continue, Jupiter as the greater benefic joys in the 11th house of the good spirit, while Venus as the lesser benefic joys in the 5th house.

So we see some parallels.

Then the sun (Apollo, god of prophecy) joys in the 9th house; while the sun's opposite number, the moon joys in the opposite third house. They were often called "god" and "godess" and both dealt with religious matters.

Then Mercury ruled the first house, which was sometimes called the helm or the rudder (of a ship.)

The joy system also relates to sect, with the day planets (sun, Jupiter, Saturn) above the horizon, and the night planets located below the horizon (moon, Venus, Mars, Mercury can go either way.)

There's more to this ordering scheme, but this is the basic strategy.
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Unread 01-07-2019, 12:28 PM
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Smile Re: Why does Mars Joy in H6?

One correction: The Sun was personified by Helios in the Greek, and Sol in the Roman. Not Apollo. Conflating Helios/Sol with Apollo is a common mistake made by those not well-versed in the ancient Greco-Roman religions. I'm surprised that waybread erred in that regard.
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Unread 01-07-2019, 02:39 PM
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Re: Why does Mars Joy in H6?

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
One correction: The Sun was personified by Helios in the Greek, and Sol in the Roman. Not Apollo. Conflating Helios/Sol with Apollo is a common mistake made by those not well-versed in the ancient Greco-Roman religions. I'm surprised that waybread erred in that regard.
Actually, one of the oldest surviving planetary depictions of a stellium in the constellation of Leo says that Mercury (Stilbon) belongs to Apollo - http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mi...p?page=cimrm31

Mercury was heavily with the arts and oracles in Hellenistic astrology, maybe just as much as Venus, Mercury also indicates knowledge and the young.

The craftsmanship of the constellation is very beautiful, not the kind of hogwash lines they print nowadays. I even made a meme to commemorate this:


Last edited by petosiris; 01-07-2019 at 02:47 PM.
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Unread 01-07-2019, 03:01 PM
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Re: Why does Mars Joy in H6?

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Do you see Mars as entirely Malefic, or with some redeeming characteristics?
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121671 - read thread and find out
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