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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #26  
Unread 03-02-2018, 09:30 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaktuzz View Post
Hi,

I updated astrodatabase search engine a little bit and it's possible to search celebrities (or registered users) also by Part of Fortune now

Link: famouspeople.astro-seek.com/advanced-astro-seeker (astrodatabase of famous celebrities)

Link: horoscopes.astro-seek.com/advanced-astro-seeker (astrodatabase of registered users)
Did not know such thing even existed. Very, very useful for finding examples for ayanamsha comparison for example. But it will be even better if you could choose to find only AA charts. (I found a way to exclude charts without birth times by choosing a rising sign, but it still slightly inconvenient. That is a minor criticism though.)


Last edited by petosiris; 03-02-2018 at 09:42 PM.
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Unread 03-03-2018, 09:51 AM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
But it will be even better if you could choose to find only AA charts. (I found a way to exclude charts without birth times by choosing a rising sign, but it still slightly inconvenient. That is a minor criticism though.)
Updated (RR-Rodden Rating search option added )
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  #28  
Unread 03-05-2018, 02:41 AM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Hello,

http://www.chrisbrennanastrologer.co...-Rationale.pdf

First is the Lot of Fortune which, for those born by day, it will be necessary to count from the
solar degree to the lunar degree, and one must cast out the collected number from the degreenumber
of the ascendant, giving 30 degrees to each sign. And where the collected number
leaves off, say that at that place is the Lot of Fortune. For those at night, the reverse, that is
from the lunar degree to the solar. And likewise one must cast out the remainder from the
degree of the ascendant.

Second is the Lot of Spirit. You will count for a diurnal birth from the Moon’s degree to the
Sun’s degree, and one must cast out the collected number from the degree of the ascendant,
again likewise apportioning up to 30 degrees from each sign. And where the number leaves off,
there will be the Lot of Spirit. Thus by day, but the reverse by night.


In your software, Fortuna seems to be calculated correctly only if the chart is nocturnal. If diurnal, fortuna and spirit's location will be incorrectly placed. Was this a deliberate feature on your part? If not, I thought I'd mention it to you in case it wasn't.
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Unread 03-05-2018, 10:13 AM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
Hello,

http://www.chrisbrennanastrologer.co...-Rationale.pdf

First is the Lot of Fortune which, for those born by day, it will be necessary to count from the
solar degree to the lunar degree, and one must cast out the collected number from the degreenumber
of the ascendant, giving 30 degrees to each sign. And where the collected number
leaves off, say that at that place is the Lot of Fortune. For those at night, the reverse, that is
from the lunar degree to the solar. And likewise one must cast out the remainder from the
degree of the ascendant.

Second is the Lot of Spirit. You will count for a diurnal birth from the Moon’s degree to the
Sun’s degree, and one must cast out the collected number from the degree of the ascendant,
again likewise apportioning up to 30 degrees from each sign. And where the number leaves off,
there will be the Lot of Spirit. Thus by day, but the reverse by night.


In your software, Fortuna seems to be calculated correctly only if the chart is nocturnal. If diurnal, fortuna and spirit's location will be incorrectly placed. Was this a deliberate feature on your part? If not, I thought I'd mention it to you in case it wasn't.
Hello,

I'm using these formulas for Lot of Fortune and Lot of Spirit calculation:

https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/pa...ine-calculator

Lot of Fortune (LF)
LF = Ascendant + Moon - Sun (Day Births)
LF = Ascendant + Sun - Moon (Night Births)

Lot of Spirit (LS)
LS = Ascendant + Sun - Moon (Day Births)
LS = Ascendant + Moon - Sun (Night Births)

I found the same formulas at Skyscript and Astrodienst. Is there something wrong with them?
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Unread 03-05-2018, 03:29 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaktuzz View Post
Hello,

I'm using these formulas for Lot of Fortune and Lot of Spirit calculation:

https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/pa...ine-calculator

Lot of Fortune (LF)
LF = Ascendant + Moon - Sun (Day Births)
LF = Ascendant + Sun - Moon (Night Births)

Lot of Spirit (LS)
LS = Ascendant + Sun - Moon (Day Births)
LS = Ascendant + Moon - Sun (Night Births)

I found the same formulas at Skyscript and Astrodienst. Is there something wrong with them?
I think they are right (that is correct for the majority, I personally use different formula for Fortune, based on my reading of Nechepso, Valens and Serapio). Maybe conspiracy theorist got confused with the way the formulas are presented between medieval and Hellenistic tradition. One uses geometrical counting, the other, as quoted by you, algebraic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
Ridiculous assertions are made in this paper like - ''For example, a native who has a solar Lot of Spirit and focuses their intellectual faculties in a way that “emits” or generates works through the independent parthenogenesis of new ideas, versus a native who has a lunar Lot of Spirit and tends actualize their intellectual faculties by “receiving” or pulling together the work of others in order to reflect and compare them, thus also creating something new in the process.''. Robert Schmidt on skyscript pointed out that sun sign astrology separates at least 12 groups of people. Dividing people into two groups and making every nocturnal birth feminine is base. Therefore I recommend the following:
http://www.astrologiahumana.com/PartofFortune.pdf *
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewto...efb9cfbf935c3c

It appears to me, a good possibility that the predomination for the Lot was intended to be the same as for the length of life walking/circumambulation. Therefore one should reverse the day formula during day if the Sun is declining while the Moon is operative and one should not reverse the day formula for night, whenever the Moon is inoperative while the Sun is operative. In the length of life predomination, the same approach was taken - both sect and angularity matter.

I personally do not use the philosophical (I call them such) lots and Daimon.

Thus:
In all nativities, the Lightbringer is Predominator if he is operative.
If he is not, the other Light is Predominator if he is operative.
If both Lights are inoperative, the Hour-Marker is Predominator.

One obvious error of the Hellenics was that ''Fortune'' was assigned to the Moon. Obviously this would be true only in their dualistic gnostical scheme, but not according to the statement and formula of Nechepso who like a true Egyptian says ''whole circle has rightly been entrusted to the Sun''.

* The paper does not include the following statement: ''Many times Spirit (Daimon) becomes Fortune: for when the Light of the Sect is found in bounds of [a star] out of Sect; or, according to the masculine and feminine - that is, when the Sun is in a feminine sign by day, or when the Moon in a masculine sign by night; or when the Light of the Sect is not Eastern in the Hemisphere of the Sect; or when both Lights happen to be in the hemisphere under the Earth, and the other stars are found in an uncongenial condition because of the Light in overseeing position, that is, in the anteceding signs, then Fortune is taken in the direction of the following signs.'' - Serapio of Alexandria, translation by Eduardo J. Gramaglia
The question is what becomes of Daimon?

The Lot is the phase of the Moon, it is dependant on it, but also on the day or night cycle, that is decided by the Sun, not the Moon. Btw Nechepso does not say to measure Moon to Sun, he says to reverse measure the distance, because it is the same thing (I think it was more symbolic to reverse measure). ''Whether you measure from the Sun to the Moon and that distance from the Ascendant, or from the Moon to the Sun and do likewise, you will find the Lot located at the same point.'' This was pointed by Schmidt to contradict Chris Brennan's assertion that the measurement by geometry was symbolical and the medieval arithmetical is somehow wrong.

I think both are wrong (this only concerns abstract theory, not calculation) and that we should use geometrical measurement, but to reverse measure from the Hour-Marker instead of measuring from the second star. At least this is how Nechepso intended it in my view. Because the Sun is first, always.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewto...er=asc&start=0 - this is the skyscript thread for anyone interested.

Last edited by petosiris; 03-05-2018 at 04:38 PM.
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  #31  
Unread 03-06-2018, 04:08 AM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Actually, no. I didn't have a problem with the formulas per se, but the fact that the software flips spirit and fortuna in the diurnal chart. In my chart, fortuna is in 3rd and Spirit is on the MC (placidus) and the software has it reversed. I changed the chart details to a nocturnal time and the chart adhered to the standard formula. As it doesn't seem to be an astrological issue, it might be technical.

Interesting post, petosiris. I'll take a closer look at the links and details you've introduced when I have the time.
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Unread 03-06-2018, 09:25 AM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
Actually, no. I didn't have a problem with the formulas per se, but the fact that the software flips spirit and fortuna in the diurnal chart. In my chart, fortuna is in 3rd and Spirit is on the MC (placidus) and the software has it reversed. I changed the chart details to a nocturnal time and the chart adhered to the standard formula. As it doesn't seem to be an astrological issue, it might be technical.

Interesting post, petosiris. I'll take a closer look at the links and details you've introduced when I have the time.
Can you send me your birth data, please? I will check it out, if there is a technical issue.
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Unread 03-06-2018, 09:40 AM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Ridiculous assertions are made in this paper like - ''For example, a native who has a solar Lot of Spirit and focuses their intellectual faculties in a way that “emits” or generates works through the independent parthenogenesis of new ideas, versus a native who has a lunar Lot of Spirit and tends actualize their intellectual faculties by “receiving” or pulling together the work of others in order to reflect and compare them, thus also creating something new in the process.''. Robert Schmidt on skyscript pointed out that sun sign astrology separates at least 12 groups of people. Dividing people into two groups and making every nocturnal birth feminine is base. Therefore I recommend the following:
http://www.astrologiahumana.com/PartofFortune.pdf *
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewto...efb9cfbf935c3c

It appears to me, a good possibility that the predomination for the Lot was intended to be the same as for the length of life walking/circumambulation. Therefore one should reverse the day formula during day if the Sun is declining while the Moon is operative and one should not reverse the day formula for night, whenever the Moon is inoperative while the Sun is operative. In the length of life predomination, the same approach was taken - both sect and angularity matter.

I personally do not use the philosophical (I call them such) lots and Daimon.

Thus:
In all nativities, the Lightbringer is Predominator if he is operative.
If he is not, the other Light is Predominator if he is operative.
If both Lights are inoperative, the Hour-Marker is Predominator.

One obvious error of the Hellenics was that ''Fortune'' was assigned to the Moon. Obviously this would be true only in their dualistic gnostical scheme, but not according to the statement and formula of Nechepso who like a true Egyptian says ''whole circle has rightly been entrusted to the Sun''.

* The paper does not include the following statement: ''Many times Spirit (Daimon) becomes Fortune: for when the Light of the Sect is found in bounds of [a star] out of Sect; or, according to the masculine and feminine - that is, when the Sun is in a feminine sign by day, or when the Moon in a masculine sign by night; or when the Light of the Sect is not Eastern in the Hemisphere of the Sect; or when both Lights happen to be in the hemisphere under the Earth, and the other stars are found in an uncongenial condition because of the Light in overseeing position, that is, in the anteceding signs, then Fortune is taken in the direction of the following signs.'' - Serapio of Alexandria, translation by Eduardo J. Gramaglia
The question is what becomes of Daimon?

The Lot is the phase of the Moon, it is dependant on it, but also on the day or night cycle, that is decided by the Sun, not the Moon. Btw Nechepso does not say to measure Moon to Sun, he says to reverse measure the distance, because it is the same thing (I think it was more symbolic to reverse measure). ''Whether you measure from the Sun to the Moon and that distance from the Ascendant, or from the Moon to the Sun and do likewise, you will find the Lot located at the same point.'' This was pointed by Schmidt to contradict Chris Brennan's assertion that the measurement by geometry was symbolical and the medieval arithmetical is somehow wrong.

I think both are wrong (this only concerns abstract theory, not calculation) and that we should use geometrical measurement, but to reverse measure from the Hour-Marker instead of measuring from the second star. At least this is how Nechepso intended it in my view. Because the Sun is first, always.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewto...er=asc&start=0 - this is the skyscript thread for anyone interested.
Thanks for this interesting post.
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  #34  
Unread 03-06-2018, 10:28 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaktuzz View Post
Hello,

I'm new to traditional astrology. It's absolutely new brand of astrology for me - I just recently downloaded Morinus software and it gave me some inspiration to create free online calculator adjusted for traditional astrology:
https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/traditional-astrology

calculator has features such as: 7 main planets; Terms; Lot of Fortune; Lot of Spirit; Whole sign houses; Firdaria periods calculator; Dodecatemoria calculator; Prenatal syzygy chart...


I attached my birth chart generated by this online calculator and I would be happy for any feedback or discussion - technical or astrological

Attachments - 1) Placidus houses and planet positions / 2 Whole Sign Houses / 3) Whole Sign Houses (started from Part of Fortune)
I will use Aldebaran 15 (can you add that please?). I will demonstrate how the Predominator is chosen, that is according to Porphyry, Antigonus, Valens and others with your chart.

First, we look whether the Sun is above the horizon, it is - therefore the Sun is the Lightbringer (Light of the Sect). However it is inoperative in the IX place (personally I use whole signs, but in this case it is also the same for equal houses and quadrants), therefore it is not fit to be Predominator. As a result we examine the other Light. It chanced to be in the operative VIII place therefore it is the Predominator.

Differences arise between the authors in how to choose the Master of the Nativity. I follow the most popular Hellenistic approach of taking the Ruler of the Predominator (the domicile ruler, not the bound ruler as done by Valens). Therefore, Jupiter is the Master of the Nativity, which is angular and exchanging close rays with the Predominator, although it is retreating.

The Predominator was usually released using rising times (can you add that feature for sidereal please, Valens and Morinus have only tropical ones) in zodiacal order (unlike primary directions).

The bound lords were taken into account as Time Lords and the conjunctions, square and opposition rays of the malefics, the Sun or the Moon were thought to be especially dangerous and life-threatening if no benefic intervenes. Therefore the Predominator was used both in the length of life as well as noting general good periods.

Presumably some 5 years after becoming 26 year old (Venus bound of Taurus) are less challenging than the few years before it. Because Venus rules the X and is closely configured with the Predominator, it probably involves an important change in occupation. And I strongly suspect you got into some more serious affair at 28 years old and that you got close friends as a result from this or occupation, educated and talkative people.

And to further illustrate predomination for the Lot, if you follow me (because of angularity) or Serapio (because of ''sect'') you will have the Lot of Fortune in II instead of XII.

Last edited by petosiris; 03-06-2018 at 10:32 PM.
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  #35  
Unread 03-07-2018, 06:23 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaktuzz View Post

It's done
https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/traditional-astrology

I found Raman, Lahiri and Khullar ayanamsa calculation formulas.
If someone would know by chance Fagan-Bradley formula, I could also add it. (I couldn't find this formula anywhere :/)

kaktuzz - when input is SIDEREAL
prenatal Syzygy chart is AUTOMATICALLY calculated using TROPICAL

so then
the biwheel of prenatal Syzygy with natal SIDEREAL
is also automatically calculated
but is meaningless

because
the two charts are in two different zodiacs on the biwheel
There's obviously a reason why
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Unread 03-08-2018, 07:17 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
kaktuzz - when input is SIDEREAL
prenatal Syzygy chart is AUTOMATICALLY calculated using TROPICAL

so then
the biwheel of prenatal Syzygy with natal SIDEREAL
is also automatically calculated
but is meaningless

because
the two charts are in two different zodiacs on the biwheel
There's obviously a reason why
Thanks for reporting this issue.

I put that biwheel link "Natal x Syzygy" away when chart is calculated using Sidereal (... until I manage to finish Transit/Biwheel chart also with Sidereal option )
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  #37  
Unread 03-08-2018, 07:40 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaktuzz View Post

Thanks for reporting this issue.

I put that biwheel link "Natal x Syzygy" away when chart is calculated using Sidereal
(... until I manage to finish Transit/Biwheel chart also with Sidereal option )

Great thanks - that avoids confusion for beginners using the feature
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Unread 03-20-2018, 11:42 AM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
I will use Aldebaran 15 (can you add that please?). I will demonstrate how the Predominator is chosen, that is according to Porphyry, Antigonus, Valens and others with your chart.

First, we look whether the Sun is above the horizon, it is - therefore the Sun is the Lightbringer (Light of the Sect). However it is inoperative in the IX place (personally I use whole signs, but in this case it is also the same for equal houses and quadrants), therefore it is not fit to be Predominator. As a result we examine the other Light. It chanced to be in the operative VIII place therefore it is the Predominator.

Differences arise between the authors in how to choose the Master of the Nativity. I follow the most popular Hellenistic approach of taking the Ruler of the Predominator (the domicile ruler, not the bound ruler as done by Valens). Therefore, Jupiter is the Master of the Nativity, which is angular and exchanging close rays with the Predominator, although it is retreating.

The Predominator was usually released using rising times (can you add that feature for sidereal please, Valens and Morinus have only tropical ones) in zodiacal order (unlike primary directions).

The bound lords were taken into account as Time Lords and the conjunctions, square and opposition rays of the malefics, the Sun or the Moon were thought to be especially dangerous and life-threatening if no benefic intervenes. Therefore the Predominator was used both in the length of life as well as noting general good periods.

Presumably some 5 years after becoming 26 year old (Venus bound of Taurus) are less challenging than the few years before it. Because Venus rules the X and is closely configured with the Predominator, it probably involves an important change in occupation. And I strongly suspect you got into some more serious affair at 28 years old and that you got close friends as a result from this or occupation, educated and talkative people.

And to further illustrate predomination for the Lot, if you follow me (because of angularity) or Serapio (because of ''sect'') you will have the Lot of Fortune in II instead of XII.
Hi petosiris,
sorry for late answer.

I added Aldebaran 15 and now I'm trying to add rising times ... but I actually don't know much about rising times

I found this page:
http://cura.free.fr/quinq/01hand.html
with a "tutorial" how to calculate rising times using R.A. (right ascension), Declination, A.D. (ascensional difference) and O.A. (oblique ascension)

Is "R.T." column what you want? Or do you need rising times in another format/another system?
There are several other systems on that cura.free.fr website and I'm not sure which one to choose.
(if "R.T." column is what you want, I could try to convert it into sidereal)

===
Coordinate Table for the Beginnings of the Tropical Signs for 40 Degrees North Latitude

270°-60° Tropical Longitude

Long. 270 | 300 | 330 | 0 | 30 | 60
R.A. 270 | 302.18 | 332.09 | 0 | 27.91 | 57.82
Decl. -23.45 | -20.16 | -11.48 | 0 | 11.48 | 20.16
A.D. -21.34 | -17.94 | -9.81 | 0 | 9.81 | 17.94
O.A. 291.35 | 320.13 | 341.9 | 0 | 18.1 | 39.88
R.T. 28.78 | 21.77 | 18.1 | 18.1 | 21.77 | 28.78


90°-240° Tropical Longitude

Long. 90 | 120 | 150 | 180 | 210 | 240
R.A. 90 | 122.18 | 152.09 | 180 | 207.91 | 237.82
Decl. 23.45 | 20.16 | 11.48 | 0 | -11.48 | -20.16
A.D. 21.34 | 17.94 | 9.81 | 0 | -9.81 | -17.94
O.A. 68.66 | 104.24 | 142.28 | 180 | 217.72 | 255.76
R.T. 35.59 | 38.04 | 37.72 | 37.72 | 38.04 | 35.59

In the table given above we have the following: The first row marked "Long." contains the tropical longitudes of the beginning of each sign. The second row marked "R.A." contains the right ascension of the beginning of each sign. The row marked "Decl." is declination of the ecliptic degree at the beginning of each sign. The row marked "A.D." contains the ascensional difference of the beginning of each sign. This will be explained shortly. The row marked "O.A." contains the oblique ascension of the beginning of each sign. This will also be explained shortly. And last the row marked "R.T." contains the rising times of the signs which begin at the designated longitude.
===
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File Type: gif weekly_rising_rimes.gif (221.9 KB, 3 views)
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  #39  
Unread 03-20-2018, 01:44 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Great site. Thanks for sharing

Does it also have options for Sidereal Astrological Charts?
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Unread 03-20-2018, 03:41 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senecar View Post

Great site. Thanks for sharing
Does it also have options
for Sidereal Astrological Charts?

I refer you to the following comments posted earlier on this thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaktuzz View Post

well ... I think it depends on what kind of "Sideral option" is suitable for traditional astrology?

I checked some sidereal options and:

1) "True" sideral chart with different size of each constellation/sign; +including Ophiuchus constellation would be pretty big deal and it would take incredible amount of work :/

2) To take the tropical chart;
keep 12 signs of the same size;
and shift it by Ayanamsa should by pretty easy.
If this case would be suitable?,...
what calculation method of Ayanamsa should be used?
Is Fagan-Bradley method ok?
There are so many ayanamsa
Raman ayanamsa gets good results according to reports on other traditional threads

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...1&postcount=63
so if I may
I would request Raman ayanamsa


Quote:
Originally Posted by kaktuzz View Post

It's done

https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/traditional-astrology

I found Raman, Lahiri and Khullar ayanamsa calculation formulas.
If someone would know by chance Fagan-Bradley formula, I could also add it. (I couldn't find this formula anywhere :/)

kaktuzz you're a star, Siriusly multiple thanks

Fagan-Bradley at 200CE 24° 44' 12"
at 1950 CE 24° 02' 28"
DELTA -00° 15' 48"
SPICA VIRGO 29° 06' 05"
ALDEBARAN TAURUS 15° 03'
GEN Sagittarius 05° 15' 48"
GC Sagittarius 02° 04'
table of the more common ayanamsas
scroll down at
http://www.lunarplanner.com/siderealastrology.html
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
I refer you to the following comments posted earlier on this thread


There are so many ayanamsa
Raman ayanamsa gets good results according to reports on other traditional threads

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...1&postcount=63
so if I may
I would request Raman ayanamsa



kaktuzz you're a star, Siriusly multiple thanks

Fagan-Bradley at 200CE 24° 44' 12"
at 1950 CE 24° 02' 28"
DELTA -00° 15' 48"
SPICA VIRGO 29° 06' 05"
ALDEBARAN TAURUS 15° 03'
GEN Sagittarius 05° 15' 48"
GC Sagittarius 02° 04'
table of the more common ayanamsas
scroll down at
http://www.lunarplanner.com/siderealastrology.html
So, Valens and earlier Hellenistic Astrologers are likely to have had used Sideral zodiac for their charts then
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Unread 03-20-2018, 06:36 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

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Originally Posted by kaktuzz View Post
Hi petosiris,
sorry for late answer.

I added Aldebaran 15 and now I'm trying to add rising times ... but I actually don't know much about rising times

I found this page:
http://cura.free.fr/quinq/01hand.html
with a "tutorial" how to calculate rising times using R.A. (right ascension), Declination, A.D. (ascensional difference) and O.A. (oblique ascension)

Is "R.T." column what you want? Or do you need rising times in another format/another system?
There are several other systems on that cura.free.fr website and I'm not sure which one to choose.
(if "R.T." column is what you want, I could try to convert it into sidereal)

===
Coordinate Table for the Beginnings of the Tropical Signs for 40 Degrees North Latitude

270°-60° Tropical Longitude

Long. 270 | 300 | 330 | 0 | 30 | 60
R.A. 270 | 302.18 | 332.09 | 0 | 27.91 | 57.82
Decl. -23.45 | -20.16 | -11.48 | 0 | 11.48 | 20.16
A.D. -21.34 | -17.94 | -9.81 | 0 | 9.81 | 17.94
O.A. 291.35 | 320.13 | 341.9 | 0 | 18.1 | 39.88
R.T. 28.78 | 21.77 | 18.1 | 18.1 | 21.77 | 28.78


90°-240° Tropical Longitude

Long. 90 | 120 | 150 | 180 | 210 | 240
R.A. 90 | 122.18 | 152.09 | 180 | 207.91 | 237.82
Decl. 23.45 | 20.16 | 11.48 | 0 | -11.48 | -20.16
A.D. 21.34 | 17.94 | 9.81 | 0 | -9.81 | -17.94
O.A. 68.66 | 104.24 | 142.28 | 180 | 217.72 | 255.76
R.T. 35.59 | 38.04 | 37.72 | 37.72 | 38.04 | 35.59

In the table given above we have the following: The first row marked "Long." contains the tropical longitudes of the beginning of each sign. The second row marked "R.A." contains the right ascension of the beginning of each sign. The row marked "Decl." is declination of the ecliptic degree at the beginning of each sign. The row marked "A.D." contains the ascensional difference of the beginning of each sign. This will be explained shortly. The row marked "O.A." contains the oblique ascension of the beginning of each sign. This will also be explained shortly. And last the row marked "R.T." contains the rising times of the signs which begin at the designated longitude.
===
Hi, thank you for adding Aldebaran 15, I noticed you did a few days ago (while using the database), but I did not have time to write a proper thanks.

Btw, that paper is quite painful to read. If they said that the vernal equinox occurs at 8 or 10 or any other value than 1 Aries, they were for all intent and purpose - conscious sidereal astrologers. Are Ptolemy and Hephaistio unconscious tropicalists because they considered the constellations to have an effect on the sign? I do not think so, so let's be honest with each other. That article is from 1999 I believe, today there are modern scholarship statements that prove conscious siderealism which makes the statement ''An appeal to history will not work'' incorrect. The statement by Neugebauer that the tropical zodiac was not existant in Babylonia, and that Valens used that one is confirmed with more and more evidence.

It's important to note that the ancient values are primitive, inaccurate and just an estimation of the rising times. There is a difference of a few minutes to a couple degrees between the rising times of the sidereal and ''tropical'' at the time which is negligible for the errors made for every klimata at the time. The rising times were divided in a few geographic klima, which are not at all accurate for every latitude. Anyways, they were primarily used in the length of life technique where a difference of 3-5 years are not as important compared to finer and more easily calculated divisions of times.

Yes, I need the R.T. Converting tropical rising time values will not work. The rising times equal the number of right ascension degrees that pass over the horizon during the rising of every sign. I personally do not think the Babylonians used trigonometry to find out each one, they likely observed and noted the time it took for each, giving 4 minutes for every degree. So if a sign rises in 120 minutes, its rising time is 30. If it rises in 80, its rising time is 20, if in 60 - 15, if in 100 - 25, if in 103 - 25.75.

I think it will take you a lot of time and you probably have better things to do. Very few people use rising times.

Last edited by petosiris; 03-20-2018 at 06:51 PM.
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Unread 03-28-2018, 10:44 AM
Purple9 Purple9 is offline
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Hi. Just found this. Love the effort!
I tried recreating my natal using the online tool here but noticed there appears to be either something wrong with my reference table of essential dignities (Ptolemy) or the tool. I did not go through all obviously , but my Sun at 23 deg 22 Gemini is on Saturn term according to the table. However in the chart I did there it is on Mars term. The other placement terms correspond to the reference table. Any thoughts? Thanks
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Unread 03-28-2018, 03:01 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

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Originally Posted by Purple9 View Post
Hi. Just found this. Love the effort!
I tried recreating my natal using the online tool here but noticed there appears to be either something wrong with my reference table of essential dignities (Ptolemy) or the tool. I did not go through all obviously , but my Sun at 23 deg 22 Gemini is on Saturn term according to the table. However in the chart I did there it is on Mars term. The other placement terms correspond to the reference table. Any thoughts? Thanks
One table uses ordinal numbers. So Jupiter having 6 degrees means that 0 - 5 59' is the bound of Jupiter in Aries.
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Unread 03-28-2018, 03:09 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
One table uses ordinal numbers. So Jupiter having 6 degrees means that 0 - 5 59' is the bound of Jupiter in Aries.
I think that does not explain the case. Gemini at 23 deg 22 is not bordering the edge of a bound. According to the table attached, Saturn holds up to 25th degree, which would then be 24'59", right?

Or did I misunderstand what you meant?
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Unread 03-28-2018, 03:31 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

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Originally Posted by Purple9 View Post
I think that does not explain the case. Gemini at 23 deg 22 is not bordering the edge of a bound. According to the table attached, Saturn holds up to 25th degree, which would then be 24'59", right?

Or did I misunderstand what you meant?
Ah, yes, sorry. Did not see you used Ptolemy's terms. You are correct, there is an error in one of the two. Still, I would seriously reconsider your choice, as of the dozens of unearthed Hellenistic charts in Oxyrhynchus and literary horoscopes reported by Neugebauer, all use the Egyptian bounds, but at the end of the day, it is your choice.

Edit: I checked Valens software and the Tetrabiblos, and I think kaktuzz has got them right and the table you send is wrong according to the values given by Ptolemy in the ''ancient manuscript he found''.

See - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...os/1B*.html#20

Last edited by petosiris; 03-28-2018 at 03:41 PM.
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Ah, yes, sorry. Did not see you used Ptolemy's terms. You are correct, there is an error in one of the two. Still, I would seriously reconsider your choice, as of the dozens of unearthed Hellenistic charts in Oxyrhynchus and literary horoscopes reported by Neugebauer, all use the Egyptian bounds, but at the end of the day, it is your choice.

Edit: I checked Valens software and the Tetrabiblos, and I think kaktuzz has got them right and the table you send is wrong according to the values given by Ptolemy in the ''ancient manuscript he found''.
Thank you so much for taking the trouble to check. And for the advice. I did not actually settle on any at this time. I was 'using' Ptolemy's for ease as I had neater notes just for practicing the techniques. Interestingly, the table I use is one that I kept coming across everywhere so it is quite widespread. Which is in itself annoying if indeed it is inaccurate. Ugh. Thanks again!
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Unread 03-28-2018, 10:39 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple9 View Post
Hi. Just found this. Love the effort!
I tried recreating my natal using the online tool here but noticed there appears to be either something wrong with my reference table of essential dignities (Ptolemy) or the tool. I did not go through all obviously , but my Sun at 23 deg 22 Gemini is on Saturn term according to the table. However in the chart I did there it is on Mars term. The other placement terms correspond to the reference table. Any thoughts? Thanks
Hi Purple9, I also found that table of Ptolemy terms (you posted) and was confused about that
But, finally, I rather set the terms according to Morinus software and the table I found at http://www.medievalastrologyguide.com/dignities.html
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  #49  
Unread 04-16-2018, 01:24 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Hello,

I adeed some new features in traditional astrology calculator

1) Secondary house system
Chart can be displayed in two different house systems simultaneously

2) Custom Ayanamsa
  • A) Ayanamsa of your own choice
  • - this option overrides other settings and set this Ayanamsa manually (independently on the date of birth)

  • B) +-Offset from another Ayanamsa
  • - this option can be used to set slightly offset from another chosen listed Ayanamsa (Lahiri, Raman, KP, Fagan-Bradley etc...)
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Unread 04-29-2018, 10:49 AM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Hello,

there is a minor update and I just added:

Antiscia/Contra-Antiscia calculator and chart:
https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/traditional-astrology
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