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  #5251  
Unread 08-19-2019, 05:49 AM
Gemini888 Gemini888 is offline
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

@CT Thanks. I did see the obsession you said. I also think Pluto joins Venus and Moon together in a twisted way, with Pluto conj Asc. Obsession combined with psychosis is a deadly force.


As for your question, there is this man called Jacques Rigaut whose chart blew me in the face. He fought in WWI and after that started writing about suicide and finally killed himself at 30. He was a Cap but he had 4 planets in Sag and 2H, with Saturn/Merc opp Neptune/Pluto. His chart ruler is also in Sag. There is no chart that spells "disillusioned idealist" like this one. He is said to maintain an extravagant lifestyle, and that looks like what 2H Sag placements could represent. Also there's the death obsession in 8H (Neptune/Pluto).


I literally didn't have to look for anything.

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  #5252  
Unread 08-19-2019, 08:31 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
Found guilty for two, real number unknown. What does 12/12 have to say about the chart? I find the "Pluto as Eternity" connection you make to be particularly sinister in this case, if you read it as him wanting to continue his relationship with his mom, whether dead or alive.
In 12/12, Pluto is Exaltation-ruler of Gemini. In H1, it was part of his core identity. It's opposite the normally fortunate, Benefactory placement of Moon in Sagittarius, but is here connected by being Conj the Ascendant, which is Domicile-ruler of Sagittarius--Extreme "cognitive dissonance" seems an apt description. In 12/12, Pluto is also the Motivational-ruler associated with the Moon (as Domicile-ruler of ), adding to the conundrum.

But what gets me, is what I see in (Placidus) H12, which I consider the House of Imagination. Clearly, he was living in his own imaginary world, unable to distinguish it from external reality. Now I have newfound respect for BML, his imaginary "companion", which I've been reluctant to credit as an important placement. Astrotheme's description of BML in Gemini is very applicable in this case. BML is also square elevated Saturn in H10.

Last edited by david starling; 08-19-2019 at 08:44 AM.
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  #5253  
Unread 08-19-2019, 09:49 AM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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In 12/12, Pluto is Exaltation-ruler of Gemini. In H1, it was part of his core identity. It's opposite the normally fortunate, Benefactory placement of Moon in Sagittarius, but is here connected by being Conj the Ascendant, which is Domicile-ruler of Sagittarius--Extreme "cognitive dissonance" seems an apt description. In 12/12, Pluto is also the Motivational-ruler associated with the Moon (as Domicile-ruler of ), adding to the conundrum.

But what gets me, is what I see in (Placidus) H12, which I consider the House of Imagination. Clearly, he was living in his own imaginary world, unable to distinguish it from external reality. Now I have newfound respect for BML, his imaginary "companion", which I've been reluctant to credit as an important placement. Astrotheme's description of BML in Gemini is very applicable in this case. BML is also square elevated Saturn in H10.

What about Pluto in the 7th? In Scorpio on top of that - what would does system say to such a position?
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  #5254  
Unread 08-19-2019, 11:37 AM
Gemini888 Gemini888 is offline
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What about Pluto in the 7th? In Scorpio on top of that - what would does system say to such a position?
Is that your placement? I know someone with the same placement. Would like to hear about it too.
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  #5255  
Unread 08-19-2019, 02:13 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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What about Pluto in the 7th? In Scorpio on top of that - what would does system say to such a position?
12/12 is a one-on-one Domicile-rulership system. It's based on a pattern utilizing the Elements and Modalities of the Signs, and 9 of the standard Modernistic Domiciles remain in place, including Pluto being Domicile-ruler of Scorpio, with Mars as Exalted-ruler of Scorpio, Domiciled in Aries.

The key phrase for a ruler in its own Domicile-sign is "Sense of Confidence". The Houses are standard, Traditionalistic "Areas of Life"*, but include a Modernistic connection between the Signs as numbered 1 thru 12, beginning with Aries, and the Houses as numbered. So, your example is Domicle-ruler of Sign #8 within House #7, the House natural to Sign #7, Libra, and its Domicle-ruler Venus.
Libra tends to keep things open and light, and the 7th House, the House of Relationships, reflects this quality. Pluto in Scorpio has a much heavier, more intense, mysterious nature. So, best to remind oneself to "lighten up" in social relationships and situations, or risk being considered a "scary" sort of person.

*[I mean that I use the "Areas of Life" definition for the Houses, as separate from the imparted "Qualities" of the Signs, which is Traditionalistic . However, I don't necessarily use the Traditionalistic meaning of every House.]

Last edited by david starling; 08-19-2019 at 05:42 PM.
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  #5256  
Unread 08-19-2019, 02:23 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Is that your placement? I know someone with the same placement. Would like to hear about it too.
Any opinion concerning BML? I associate it with Hecate in her Dark Moon visage, since I tend to stick with Greco-Roman imagery.
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  #5257  
Unread 08-19-2019, 05:54 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Is that your placement? I know someone with the same placement. Would like to hear about it too.
Yes. Its actions are entirely lost on me, however. While we say the seventh house is our partner, an I can see that with the...less than stable women I attract because Mars, my sevenths ruler is in the 12th house. 12th has all kinds of things in it, but a keynote is mental hospitals and insanity.

So, I've always wondered what, if anything, Pluto does in my chart that can't be ascribed to Mars sitting in the dreadful 12th. As of yet, none can give me a clear answer. Which means I nod and walk off, still wondering.

C'est la vie.
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  #5258  
Unread 08-19-2019, 06:27 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Yes. Its actions are entirely lost on me, however. While we say the seventh house is our partner, an I can see that with the...less than stable women I attract because Mars, my sevenths ruler is in the 12th house. 12th has all kinds of things in it, but a keynote is mental hospitals and insanity.

So, I've always wondered what, if anything, Pluto does in my chart that can't be ascribed to Mars sitting in the dreadful 12th. As of yet, none can give me a clear answer. Which means I nod and walk off, still wondering.

C'est la vie.
Tramod astrology can be confusing!

Bob Dylan line: "And like a fool, I mixed them, and it scrambled up my mind. Now people just get uglier, and I have no sense of time."

Last edited by david starling; 08-19-2019 at 06:30 PM.
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  #5259  
Unread 08-19-2019, 06:29 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Tramod astrology can be confusing!
This is why the wise thing to do, is jump ship and go Jyotish. That'll show those western suckas. Yeah, foo, got ya bruh.
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  #5260  
Unread 08-19-2019, 10:12 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
In 12/12, Pluto is Exaltation-ruler of Gemini. In H1, it was part of his core identity. It's opposite the normally fortunate, Benefactory placement of Moon in Sagittarius, but is here connected by being Conj the Ascendant, which is Domicile-ruler of Sagittarius--Extreme "cognitive dissonance" seems an apt description. In 12/12, Pluto is also the Motivational-ruler associated with the Moon (as Domicile-ruler of ), adding to the conundrum.

But what gets me, is what I see in (Placidus) H12, which I consider the House of Imagination. Clearly, he was living in his own imaginary world, unable to distinguish it from external reality. Now I have newfound respect for BML, his imaginary "companion", which I've been reluctant to credit as an important placement. Astrotheme's description of BML in Gemini is very applicable in this case. BML is also square elevated Saturn in H10.
For me, the jury is still out on BML. I have it in the 6th house Gemini in opposition to my Sun & Mercury (7th ruler). Asteroid Lilith is in my 7th house opposite Venus so it looks like both liliths are telling me similar messages.

What would you say about a 12th house Pluto in Sagittarius? Just as a disembodied placement not attached to any other planets.
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Last edited by conspiracy theorist; 08-19-2019 at 10:22 PM.
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  #5261  
Unread 08-19-2019, 10:15 PM
Hkk Hkk is offline
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

Someone close to me has 12th house Pluto and apparently he has been victim of black magic 🤷🏻*♀️
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  #5262  
Unread 08-19-2019, 10:25 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

huh, that might be more relevant than you could ever know...
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  #5263  
Unread 08-19-2019, 10:39 PM
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huh, that might be more relevant than you could ever know...
Why? U have been a victim? The person I know is into all that. Is a major believer in it all. I really canít emphasise how much he believes in it all. Itís not good to be that much of a believer in something like that. He seems to think itís the only thing in life to get thru
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  #5264  
Unread 08-19-2019, 10:42 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

Apparently it's relevant to the family history, according to some "allegeds" as well. I'm on the fence about that personally, but the 12th house is all about those unseen forces that have influences on you.

Do you think his magical belief is causing him harm in his life?
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  #5265  
Unread 08-19-2019, 10:52 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

Any well footnoted books on Saturn? I see reference online to one by David Talbot. Iím currently reading one mentioned in the free will vs fate thread and it is kind of a letdown. Apocryphal (ďArthur MorosĒ), few footnotes, and some quotes out of context. Iím not unconvinced of the theme, but disappointed in the execution.
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  #5266  
Unread 08-19-2019, 10:53 PM
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Apparently it's relevant to the family history, according to some "allegeds" as well. I'm on the fence about that personally, but the 12th house is all about those unseen forces that have influences on you.

Do you think his magical belief is causing him harm in his life?
Harm..... yes I think so however I donít think he realises heís a victim in it all which is crazy as heís such a firm believer he canít see whatís in front of him. I mean this is what Iíve been told. Iím not sure if itís actual black magic as never believed however some sort of brain washing is going on. Heís a very educated person and very high up in his career. Yet heís been fooled somehow. I looked at his chart and heís got Pluto in 12th house. Itís to do with his wife and her family from what I know. He has libra rising moon in libra and in Aries uranus and Venus. NN cap but he canít seem to be able to get out of the **** he is in. Itís like he goes back and forth. Thinks something isnít right but then brushes it away..... I was told by a very good person that he was black magicked. Iíve been told about these storyís from my Hindu friends about jadu but can only listen. Hard to understand
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  #5267  
Unread 08-19-2019, 11:34 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Any well footnoted books on Saturn? I see reference online to one by David Talbot. Iím currently reading one mentioned in the free will vs fate thread and it is kind of a letdown. Apocryphal (ďArthur MorosĒ), few footnotes, and some quotes out of context. Iím not unconvinced of the theme, but disappointed in the execution.
I'm currently going through "The Fraternitas Saturni: History, Doctrine and Rituals of the Magical Order of the Brotherhood of Saturn" by Stephen E. Flowers, Ph.D. Highly researched and collaborated with persons in the order. You can research any names and keywords that crop up for further information. You might like Chapter 2 in particular that focuses on doctrine - topics tackled there include "Saturn Gnosis", "The Saturnian Archetype", "The Way of Saturn". They make no bones about being a Luciferian organization.

I have a subscription on scribd which is where I got access to the book, but you might have your own preferred ways of getting the material.
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  #5268  
Unread 08-19-2019, 11:35 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Harm..... yes I think so however I don’t think he realises he’s a victim in it all which is crazy as he’s such a firm believer he can’t see what’s in front of him. I mean this is what I’ve been told. I’m not sure if it’s actual black magic as never believed however some sort of brain washing is going on. He’s a very educated person and very high up in his career. Yet he’s been fooled somehow. I looked at his chart and he’s got Pluto in 12th house. It’s to do with his wife and her family from what I know. He has libra rising moon in libra and in Aries uranus and Venus. NN cap but he can’t seem to be able to get out of the **** he is in. It’s like he goes back and forth. Thinks something isn’t right but then brushes it away..... I was told by a very good person that he was black magicked. I’ve been told about these story’s from my Hindu friends about jadu but can only listen. Hard to understand
Magic certainly is complex and can be a confusing knot of contradictions, empty alleys or just total ********. By the sounds of things he sounds like he might be in some sort of brotherhood or organization of an occult nature?
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  #5269  
Unread 08-19-2019, 11:55 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

Thanks conspiracy theorist, I donít see that one in the easiest online source but do see another book of the authorís on the Zoroastrians which Iíll pick up. I frequently shut down my investigations into subjects related to Crowley since my radar for the anti-feminine starts pulsing.
The author of the book Iím reading keeps referencing someone named David Beth who appears to be in charge of a number of contemporary saturnine societies. That source in turn appears to be connected to the lack of footnoting.

Last edited by passiflora; 08-19-2019 at 11:57 PM.
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  #5270  
Unread 08-20-2019, 12:11 AM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

Never heard of Beth, but that doesn't mean I won't see his name turn up eventually. Noticing the pattern of my life I'd probably start encountering things that he has his hand in soon enough.

Crowley often had "scarlet women" in his life who he had as his magical companions, oftentimes these were highly passionate and acrimonious relationships. I'd imagine that you'd find such a practice objectifying and not honouring of the feminine soul. What's your view on sexuality in these more contemporary practices? Do you think it's genuine in its desire to connect with the body/feminine, or do you believe it's a distortion and anti-feminine in its core?
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  #5271  
Unread 08-20-2019, 12:14 AM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

Crowley violently rejected everything his mother stood for in life, so a strain of that rebellion runs through all of his works.
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  #5272  
Unread 08-20-2019, 12:16 AM
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Magic certainly is complex and can be a confusing knot of contradictions, empty alleys or just total ********. By the sounds of things he sounds like he might be in some sort of brotherhood or organization of an occult nature?
Heís not joined a brotherhood or anything occult except his wife. He just believes in magic and now he canít see itís been done to him
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  #5273  
Unread 08-20-2019, 12:29 AM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

Celebrate moonlit nights
Plant A Magical Moon Garden
Display plants with silver or gray foliage
or even variegated foliage.
The subdued light from the moon
will reflect these colors.
Use Night Blooming Flowers
While they donít always sport white flowers
plants with blooms that only open late in the day or at night
are often used in moon gardens.
Scents Appeal
At night, when the light is low
appeal to other senses besides sight.
The scent of some well-chosen plants
is important in a Moon Garden.
Add Soothing Sounds
The sound of small tabletop fountains
and other water features
are pleasing to the ear, and moonlight will shimmer in gently moving water.
Ornamental grasses, with their rustling seed heads and stems
are another option to bring soothing sound to the Moon Garden.
Consider using white gravel in walkways
to capture the effect of the light.
If you have a very small space
fill containers with plants suitable for Moon Garden
and group the planters together.
White flowers and silver foliage are complementary
with nearly any other color scheme in the garden
so it is usually easy to add Moon Garden elements
to your existing plantings.
Site your Moon Garden
so that it enjoys maximum exposure to lunar light.

FARMERS ALMANACK PLANT BY THE MOON CALENDAR
at https://www.farmersalmanac.com/calendar/gardening/
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  #5274  
Unread 08-20-2019, 12:38 AM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Heís not joined a brotherhood or anything occult except his wife. He just believes in magic and now he canít see itís been done to him
That's sad. It's better for some that they never open the door to magic, since it's easy to get lost down the rabbit hole. Doubt he has his defenses up when it comes to his wife.
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  #5275  
Unread 08-20-2019, 12:40 AM
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That's sad. It's better for some that they never open the door to magic, since it's easy to get lost down the rabbit hole. Doubt he has his defenses up when it comes to his wife.
Yes itís sad. I doubt it to. You canít live like that
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