Will we?

tommy247365 · Sep 6, 2013

First, thank you for all that read or post. Your time is appreciated.

Back when the world blew up at the end of April, I was involved with the person I thought I would spend my days with. Though not without issues, all was mostly well. Since then our relationship has become almost non existent. I write a thousand words, she replies with one. We completely avoid discussions about us. And we've been doing this for since middle of May.

There are and have been plenty of roadblocks during our 4+ years together. We each bring more than our fair share of baggage. But we have grown together. Where we are now, is 180 degrees from where we were the minute before our world imploded.

My question is, will we survive this and move forward together?

I, need to learn to not be the hero. And a few other lessons. But I am not afraid of the work that it would take. The work needs to be done regardless, but the heart does need some hope too!

A person I thought to be a gifted astrologer, suggested that indeed she could be the one. And offered reasons for the conclusion far in advance of her and I ever meeting. Her insights, proved to be spot on despite what was hidden from view.

Again my thanks... Confusion reigns.

(my apologies if I haven't done this properly.)

IleneK · Sep 6, 2013

tommy247365 said:
First, thank you for all that read or post. Your time is appreciated.

Back when the world blew up at the end of April, I was involved with the person I thought I would spend my days with. Though not without issues, all was mostly well. Since then our relationship has become almost non existent. I write a thousand words, she replies with one. We completely avoid discussions about us. And we've been doing this for since middle of May.

There are and have been plenty of roadblocks during our 4+ years together. We each bring more than our fair share of baggage. But we have grown together. Where we are now, is 180 degrees from where we were the minute before our world imploded.

My question is, will we survive this and move forward together?

I, need to learn to not be the hero. And a few other lessons. But I am not afraid of the work that it would take. The work needs to be done regardless, but the heart does need some hope too!

A person I thought to be a gifted astrologer, suggested that indeed she could be the one. And offered reasons for the conclusion far in advance of her and I ever meeting. Her insights, proved to be spot on despite what was hidden from view.

Again my thanks... Confusion reigns.

(my apologies if I haven't done this properly.)

To get things going, for members to answer a horary question, you will need to provide a chart for the time and place that the question became clear to you, rather than what appears to possibly be a natal chart. You can use the timestamp found in the upper right of your post if you do not recall the time.

I would recommend that you create the chart at astro.com and upload it here as an attachment, as it will clearly display the time, date, location as well as the degrees and other information relevant to the delineation.

Clinton Soule · Sep 6, 2013

Tommy ...........stated:

My question is, will we survive this and move forward together?

Well what house rules the querant?

How is the lord aspected?
.

IleneK · Sep 6, 2013

Clinton Soule said:
Tommy ...........staed:

Well what house rules the querant?

How is the lord aspected?
.

Clinton,

Might there not be a problem for OP in trying to interpret the querant's significator and aspects to it if the chart posted is a natal rather than a horary chart...?

tommy247365 · Sep 6, 2013

Good Evening...

I am re-reading FAQ's as quickly as I can. I will put the proper chart up, just as soon as I figure out how to help myself.

Thank you all for your patience.

Clinton Soule · Sep 6, 2013

IleneK properly stated:

Clinton,

Might there not be a problem for OP in trying to interpret the querant's significator and aspects to it if the chart posted is a natal rather than a horary chart...? Today 04:06 PM

BIG TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the querant is NOT a horary astrologer the query is only answered by the first TRUE, did I honestly say TRUE horary astrologer who first understands the query!

See this thread:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66689

from post # 298

Senior Member
Clinton Soule's Profile Fields
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 298

Re: How to ask a Horary Question!
Harold said:

Quote:
When answering a horary question, I would say that the astrologer - "horary artist" - is the person who takes responsibility for answering the horary question using the chart (s)he erected for the moment (s)he understood the question.
And that is the traditional standard, all the others may be just another perplexing offshoot that distorts the the reading.

Poyi stated:

Quote:
I know that is against traditional practice. However I think the querent election of the horarh chart at his or her own most desperate time which will reflect the energy of the stars much better.
Then you admit there is No Traditional source who did such?

Is it possible that this is a Moderne Technique that is Not valid?

Dr. Farr states:

Quote:
It has been a tradition going back many centuries that the practitioner can legitimately delineate the horary chart as erected for the time and the place the PRACTITIONER has understood the question, OR as erected for the time and place the practitioner received the question (such as by messenger, etc) This possibility was allowed as far back as the time of Thabit ibn Qurra (mentioned in his "Ghayat el kawkeb") in the 900's AD-I myself have done this on numerous occasions, and my results have been "just fine" using this approach: however, in general I prefer to use the horary chart as erected for the time and place the querent asked the question, as my main approach to horary delineation...
The Blue was added by myself for emphasis!

But if someone is in a jet and calls or emails a query we will definitely have a problem unless we have the lattitude and longitude of the query; new mthod with a whole new set of quagmires to confront.
.
__________________
Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Matthew 2:2, Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

2 Therefore when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Juda, in the days of king Herod, lo! astrologers [lo! kings, or wise men,] came from the east to Jerusalem, .....As Sidney Omarr wrote '...if the astrologers in Matthew had been followers of Satan rather than of God why did they not turn in the child's where abouts to the evil King Herod?'

If I'm wrong I seek correction by the few that truly know!
.

tommy247365 · Sep 6, 2013

I am not, an artist. I have a base understanding, which is to say I know nothing. The time stamp was 15:10CST

If I need to turn around and come back through the door again, I completely understand. I will endeavour to do it better next time.

Attached is what I think I needed to bring the first time. My apologies for my naivete

(I started to read the thread that was suggested, only furthering my understanding of all I do not understand!)

IleneK · Sep 6, 2013

Clinton Soule said:
IleneK properly stated:

.

I appreciate your agreement it must be a horary chart that is read rather than the natal, as originally posted.

And as an aside, if you would, please remove "Today 04:06 PM " that you may have inadvertently included as part of my quote:

You wrote:

IleneK properly stated:

Quote:
Clinton,

Might there not be a problem for OP in trying to interpret the querant's significator and aspects to it if the chart posted is a natal rather than a horary chart...? Today 04:06 PM

Not sure where it came from and might be confusing for others who read it.

Thanks.

Clinton Soule · Sep 6, 2013

Tommy,

The fault is NOt at all yours.

Many I know who are in the medical profession state that they are ashamed of certain practices that are Not professional.

I hate this as so many, ...did I truly state that so many have robbed the art and science of it's purity?????????

I mean I totally understand why so many are confused and seek to remedy this mal-practice! :annoyed:

See this thread and you may understand the quagmire:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66689

Re: How to ask a Horary Question!
Tsmall stated:

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clinton Soule
That is the whole point, most who struggle to be a committed traditionalists, to try to perfect their horary skills, respecting their elders who are the fore-fathers of horary, realize that the Modernes have made the mistake of utilizing Outer planets as they misunderstood the Ancients and those in Lilly's time, wrote books upon it, and spread their confusion and now an army of those from the Mod Squad are on the Band wagon touting the Mod veiws of which the Mods misunderstood and others adopted as gospel.

You need to stop freaking out about this. Seriously, it does not matter how others practice horary. It only matters how you practice it, and that what you practice works for you. As in gives correct answers.
Well as you said in the post prior to this, '...there is no traditional accounts of this practice!'

And I'm Not freaking out, it is the same malady as those who use Outers and John Frawley's usage of Outers yet Not ruling house cusps or the matter!

Or like Bob Zemco's observation that so many so-called Trads misunderstand the Early and Late Asc., either they do understand or they understand enough to confuse the teachings, yet have missed certain points!

Tsmall:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clinton Soule
I mean should we invent concepts or pass on wrong data for others to be further confused upon?

Tsmall:
There is a difference between inventing concepts and understanding which charts are or are not valid. If you feel better not using the chart posted by the querent because the querent isn't able to read it, then by all means recast every chart you read for the moment you understood the question. Again, if you get good results (as in correct answers) by doing this, then what do you care what others do or don't do?
Red added by yours truly!

That is Not my point!

Most Trads understand that the Modernes have invented or thought the usage of Outers is proper as they did not happen to have the data prior to 1700 of the Outers. But that is Not traditionalism by any early sources! It is in this same manner I address this issue as Outers are Not Traditional and ***IF*** there are no writtings to support this by pre-1700 authors it must Not be Traditional as well!

Tsmall:

Quote:
Let me make sure I understand. You are saying that because I said that a chart cast by someone who can't read it is still valid, and because I further confirmed that I have seen nothing about that in the texts (while giving a very logical and rational explanation as to why they didn't write about...as in, it was impossible and so therefore likely never crossed an ancient astrologer's mind that they should directly address it...since they were so <ahem> clear about everthing else <not>) that I could be further confusing the horary scientic community (what exactly is that? Is there a membership card for it or something?) by stating something contrary to the words of Traditionalism?
Tsmall, I have a few hypothesis or theories just as I'm certain they had about such things as Outers, etc., yet possibly like the Trad writters prior to 1700 there are reasons they didn't deviate as you have stated.

Like Lilly deviates, I'm certain others May Agree when he uses the time he first hears of a rumour for 3rd house matters and the time someone is known to lay down in their sickbeb for 6th house matters. This is confusing and as I understand it deviates from the consistency of the time he understands a query.

I understand the confusion and question the method, that is all I'm saying!

It's like Bob Zemco's comment about that Bonatus and other pre-1700 writters allowed queries to be asked more than once under certain conditions. But I have Not yet read of this or seen any post this methodology by the Ancients or the page numbers of the source; Academic Honesty goes further that 3rd house rumours!
.
__________________
Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Matthew 2:2, Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

2 Therefore when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Juda, in the days of king Herod, lo! astrologers [lo! kings, or wise men,] came from the east to Jerusalem, .....As Sidney Omarr wrote '...if the astrologers in Matthew had been followers of Satan rather than of God why did they not turn in the child's where abouts to the evil King Herod?'

.

tommy247365 · Sep 6, 2013

I've read the thread, and now understand there is a quagmire. Anything more would be presumptuous on my part.

I did not intend on stirring the gumbo, merely getting a sense of what the universe had cooked up...

tsmall · Sep 6, 2013

Oh, good grief.

Clinton, if you are interested in actually helping the querent, then would you be so kind as to help, perhaps by casting the chart for the time you as the astrologer received the question? And if you are going to post the discussion you and I are having, I would highly appreciate it if you quote all of my position and not merely those which support yours. Please and thank you.

tommy, the chart you posted has no date/time on it, and while it is pretty it really is difficult to read. Is this your natal chart?

If so, Ilene, I think the best way to proceed at this point would be to construct a chart for the time the querent sought the adivce of an astrolger, in this case any astrologer, lol. 4:10 pm. I completely agree with you on that.

tommy, there is no quagmire, though it may feel as though you've stepped in one. To get a readable chart, if this isn't a chart of the moment, we need to know the time the question was asked, the date, and the location on earth. If you are't comfortable or don't know how to cast a chart at astro.com to do this, let us know and we will help you figure out what the Universe had cooked up.

tommy247365 · Sep 6, 2013

Ok...

The second attachment, was "of the moment". I think. I'd be happy to provide another.

I asked at 15:10 CST.
I am located in Plainfield, WI 54966
Lat: 44° 12' 49.3128"
Long: -89° 29' 22.9992"

Tommy

tsmall · Sep 6, 2013

It looks to me like the second chart is a natal chart. Birth date 1963? Though I have a few charts open so maybe I'm missing it.

Here is the chart for your question.

A blind reading is at best difficult and at worst a recipe for disaster. What happened in April?

tommy247365 · Sep 6, 2013

If you tell me exactly what chart to procure, Id be happy to do so...

My guess with April, given the timing was the eclipse? What was a functional relationship with issues, was destroyed in moments. In hindsight, things had been building, but on that day I chose to explode with unpleasantness. A lot of unpleasantness.

Since then, we are speaking. But not about us after 4+ years. She is married in the traditional sense. I am "married" in the non-traditional sense. (we are both "roommates" to these people now, though both are long term relationships that have reached their natural end). What was, is no longer. No closeness at any level, when previous we were bonded.

It seems as though there is something left, I would expect truer endings if indeed there were going to be such events. Especially by me. Once hurt, I tend to.. act impulsively much to my detriment. Acts of kindness are typically accepted. Tokens of esteem, appreciation or love are kept out in public places at work. Which is equally confusing, though I do the same with gifts from her.

My astrologer (my mother, that recently passed) suggested perhaps accidentally that I would have 3 relationships, the third (her) being the last and would last till the end of my days. Some insights as to her children proved spot on despite what was hidden even from me initially. There was a geographical move that didnt make sense until she and I met. Before the move, we looked at my chart and tried to make sense of the move with my current partner. It didnt make sense until "her".

She, has more than her fair share as well. Both previous to me, and currently. (she is a Sag, 12/10/58 )

I know, I have plenty of work on my own to do. The absence of this person in my existence has me confused and exhausted. Two things, that I am not accustomed to.

Tommy

tsmall · Sep 6, 2013

The chart for 15:10 your location is not radical. Meaning there is no agreement between the hour ruler and the ASC/ASC ruler. Which means the Universe is not watching your question, and which also means that this is the only time it is probably an exercise in futility to try to answer it. That does not mean that a chart you make for the birth of a question is not valid.

You need to ask again. But before you do, you need to meditate on the question. Is this something you can answer for yourself? Why do you need to ask? What, exactly, are you going to do with the answer? Can you accept if the answer is no? Are you asking from pure intent, or from intent to manipulate?

Those are the types of questions you need to ask yourself, and then be still. Let the question arise, and be prepared for the answer. Once the true question comes to you, full blown and with no other way to answer, note the date, time, and place of the question. That's the moment of birth, and the moment for which the chart should be cast.

tommy247365 · Sep 6, 2013

I appreciate the guidance and advice. And, what seems to be a lesson as well.

The questions you ask of me are valid. I believe you can answer any question posed of you. It is my desire, to answer these questions with as much thought and help as I can get. I made mistakes. She made mistakes (admitted of her own volition) This makes us normal. I'd like to recover extraordinarily.

My need to ask, is to find peace. For her and I. If our happiness depends on a path apart, then I want her to be happy. Let us release each other and move forward. If we are to walk together, the real work awaits. Any answer, is an answer. I don't control the answer, the very best I can do is to control myself. I follow, but not blindly. You, or the artist could very well be wrong. I seek guidance, shaped by questions asked. An augmentation to what I already see or feel.

Whatever comes of us, will be new regardless. We cannot return to where we were. Nor, do we care to. This could be a time of learning, so as to have the rest of our days together happier. She and I both, have had our fair share of lifes challenges. I cant see a way to manipulate her, or this. Nor do I care to. Love, isnt manipulation. I feel, love for her. I felt love from her. We either are/will be, which will require work or we aren't. If we aren't, it requires healing for both of us. Just not together. We will go on.

I speak not of minutes or days. Our path if it exists will require months or even years.

Again, I appreciate your knowledge and patience. If you would be kind enough to tell me exactly what chart I should bring with me I would certainly appreciate it. Maybe this conversation, was the answer itself. The inability to ask properly, providing for this lesson.

Tommy

wintersprite1 · Sep 7, 2013

It seems this thread has become more important about who is right about what technique and has ignored the needs of the OP. There is not to be any arguing about what technique MUST be used. The Trad Vs Modern technique and which is correct will from here out have full postings deleted. Both are welcome here and most areas of the forum. Explaining the differences is understandable, but the snarky comments about the one not agreed with is not only childish, it is also not welcome.

I understand that the first chart is non valid. It is not practical to use the technique of using the time and place of the astrologer understanding the question when working on a forum. We all read the posting at a different time. (although if someone is inclined to do such, the forum allows for it, but again being on a forum will only lead to confusion when reading all the different interpretations.)

As for using the time stamp, there are issues about the exact time the chart was made, as it takes time to write the entire posting before hitting send. And that is assuming the post was written the first time the question was asked.

If this thread had not gone on after the first posting that the natal chart was said not to be a valid Horary, there would be an explanation of the difference of horary and natal and then moving the chart to read the question using the natal and transits. (Suggestion to OP, post your natal in the Read My Chart forum.... you will get answers there and not just members arguing)

If the OP wants a horary, keep in mind the question should be refrained from asking until the querent feels a burning I can't wait any longer with out knowing the answer kind of moment. Be careful how you ask the question (better would be a variation of this question) and then note the time, date, and place the question was asked. Using the technique of asking the Astrologer, that is best in person or using a PM. Afterwards, you could post that chart as the horary chart to use.

tommy247365 · Sep 7, 2013

I appreciate the lively discussion, I had thought it might be easier. Apparently, nothing concerning her will be.

Perhaps thats the answer after all...

wintersprite1 · Sep 7, 2013

The thread is now closed as there is no additional information to post. OP has started a new thread with a proper chart.

Will we?

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