Please tell me why I don't feel like a Virgo, lest I give up astrology altogether

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greybeard

Well-known member
There is a difference between a horoscope, of whatever "style", being in error (not true to the facts)...
And not knowing how to read a horoscope.

It is clear from your brief post that you are far from being a skilled astrologer ("You have to calculate from the geocentric to the sidereal chart to see the exact difference by degree which it makes (in my case it was 23.77 I think)")

The sidereal chart is geocentric. Sidereal refers to a zodiac. Geocentric refers to a point of view. The "other" zodiac is called "tropical". There can't be 23 degrees and 77 minutes.....there are only 60 minutes in a degree. The difference does not vary "by case;" for any given year (or date if you want to be precise) the difference is the same for everyone. And the difference depends on the ayanamsa used in the sidereal system.

The difference as of today, in the Lahiri ayanamsa (which is the ayanamsa officially recognized by the government of India) is 23 degrees 02 minutes; in the Krishnamurti ayanamsa it is 22 degrees 56 minutes; and in the Bradley-Fagan zodiac (using an ayanamsa popular among western siderealists) it is 24 degrees 55 minutes. Take your pick. Which ayanamsa is the right one? In the Draconic it is currently 125 degrees 19 minutes (added to tropical rather than subtracted).

You are not close to being master of even the most basic and fundamental astrological knowledge, not to speak of having any skill in interpretation. If you make a judgment of the fitness of one type of chart (zodiac, system or whatever) over another based on insuffcient knowledge and lack of the most elementay skill.....Hey, have you thought of running for President?

If you take two skilled astrologers, one using western methods and the tropical zodiac, and the other using Hindu methods and the sidereal zodiac, you will find that the two readings will match very closely. Both systems of astrology "work", and by work we mean "give accurate and meaningful results." And implicitly, those results would have to be substantially the same.

To say that the western/tropical system does not work is to fly in the face of history. Because, historically, astrologers have been employed by the extremely rich and powerful -- emperors, kings, princes, pharaohs, caliphs -- who, if their astrologer failed them, would unceremoniously remove his head. If we set aside "popular" astrology, we find that even today astrologers are employed by the rich and powerful -- secretly. These people often base important decisions on astrological advice, and failure is frowned upon.
 
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Zarathu

Account Closed
I hate to even desire to jump into such a fully formed discussion.....however,
is the actual birthdata around somewhere for Far's chart. An astrodeeenst chart does me no good, and though I could figure the date out from the data, the place would be harder. I need the actual birthdata to jump into this discussion with another voice....

though it it might be falcetta....
 
G

greybeard

Well-known member
If you have a chart, you can easily figure out time and place.

I believe that in my first post to this thread I gave that information. Find that post. I don't recall the data offhand and am not going to recalculate it.

I just found that post, and although I had published it, it says "birth data withheld by request"...moderator (they deleted that.)

People should realize that if they publish their chart it is very easy to extract the birth data. A horoscope fits only one time and one place. So, if you don't want folks to know when and where you were born, don't publish your chart.

You can determine exact time and place with only 4 positions (ain't telling which ones). You don't need the whole chart. So don't go giving out exact positions either.
 
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13.Fairy

Member
greybeard said:
There is a difference between a horoscope, of whatever "style", being in error (not true to the facts)...
And not knowing how to read a horoscope.

It is clear from your brief post that you are far from being a skilled astrologer ("You have to calculate from the geocentric to the sidereal chart to see the exact difference by degree which it makes (in my case it was 23.77 I think)")

The sidereal chart is geocentric. Sidereal refers to a zodiac. Geocentric refers to a point of view. The "other" zodiac is called "tropical". There can't be 23 degrees and 77 minutes.....there are only 60 minutes in a degree. The difference does not vary "by case;" for any given year (or date if you want to be precise) the difference is the same for everyone. And the difference depends on the ayanamsa used in the sidereal system.

The difference as of today, in the Lahiri ayanamsa (which is the ayanamsa officially recognized by the government of India) is 23 degrees 02 minutes; in the Krishnamurti ayanamsa it is 22 degrees 56 minutes; and in the Bradley-Fagan zodiac (using an ayanamsa popular among western siderealists) it is 24 degrees 55 minutes. Take your pick. Which ayanamsa is the right one? In the Draconic it is currently 125 degrees 19 minutes (added to tropical rather than subtracted).

You are not close to being master of even the most basic and fundamental astrological knowledge, not to speak of having any skill in interpretation. If you make a judgment of the fitness of one type of chart (zodiac, system or whatever) over another based on insuffcient knowledge and lack of the most elementay skill.....Hey, have you thought of running for President?

If you take two skilled astrologers, one using western methods and the tropical zodiac, and the other using Hindu methods and the sidereal zodiac, you will find that the two readings will match very closely. Both systems of astrology "work", and by work we mean "give accurate and meaningful results." And implicitly, those results would have to be substantially the same.

To say that the western/tropical system does not work is to fly in the face of history. Because, historically, astrologers have been employed by the extremely rich and powerful -- emperors, kings, princes, pharaohs, caliphs -- who, if their astrologer failed them, would unceremoniously remove his head. If we set aside "popular" astrology, we find that even today astrologers are employed by the rich and powerful -- secretly. These people often base important decisions on astrological advice, and failure is frowned upon.
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LOL, as it is clear that you are far from being refined and penetrating when it comes to psychology, let alone wisdom.

I made a mistake about the minutes due to the calculator and not to my knowledge and skills in astrology, i.e. the calculator counts till 100 to get the unity and the minutes are 60. I know that, but yet made a mistake cause I concentrated on the formulation of my message.

But I don't think that's the problem right here. And about the exact degree of the precession, well ok, they may vary in minutes and nevertheless it's interesting to figure out which one is accurate. And yes, it varies and is not the same for everyone, it will make a difference for someone born in the 50-s or 60-s and someone later on since the precession is moving.

The point here is not about the aspects and dynamics of a chart, for of course, both systems work regarding this, since the aspects and planets positions in the houses don't change, taking any system, they remain the same.

The real point is about psychology, character, the essence of somebodies being, the nature of the energies of a planet since it's a big difference if you have for example sun in Capricorn or in Libra, mercury in Capricorn or in Virgo, the moon in Pisces or in Scorpio. The character is defined by that, the emanations, the natures of the energies which we possess, but I see you don't get that.

If you're trying to say it's the same having mars in Pisces or in Scorpio, than by no offense mister, you don't have the basics in astrology, and plus are bad at psychological skills.
I researched in my example, with my chart, and if you dare to say that I don't have the skills to interpret myself, my character, my emotional side, my way of thinking, my values and my essence, then you are just a pathetic person who doesn't take it well and can't admit that someone else beats him in intellect.

It's deep psychology and it takes an analytical, penetrating, profound, keen and exact mind to pierce the night and make light in the obscure labyrinth of confusion and chaos.
What I'm saying is, not everyone has cats eyes or the one eye to unveil the absolute truth. No offense, but you certainly are not one of them.

Have a nice day
 
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13.Fairy

Member
FarEastUranus said:
Hi,

I'm not keen on sharing my data on a Google-searchable website as we are discussing pretty private things here.

Prior informations were kindly taken off site by the moderators at my request. Thanks for your understanding.
Click to expand...


Hey,

I'm sorry if I said anything wrong. It was not my intention.
I was only trying to help, but as I can see, help is not always appreciated.

Have a nice day
 
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Claire19

Claire19

Well-known member
You have the Sun in the 1st house which is very strong and also your chart ruler is in Libra. We are much more than just our sun sign and that is the art of astrology to synthesise all the various components and aspects.

What does Virgo feel like anyway? Why would you give up on astrology because of that.
 
FarEastUranus

FarEastUranus

Well-known member
13.Fairy said:
Hey,

I'm sorry if I said anything wrong. It was not my intention.
I was only trying to help, but as I can see, help is not always appreciated.

Have a nice day
Click to expand...

No worries Fairy, I wasn't addressing to you. I am not keeping my details from the astrologers on this forum, but from people who may know me in person, having been stalked in the past. An easy search of my birthday would get them to this forum. Thanks for understanding.
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Claire19 said:
You have the Sun in the 1st house which is very strong and also your chart ruler is in Libra. We are much more than just our sun sign and that is the art of astrology to synthesise all the various components and aspects.

What does Virgo feel like anyway? Why would you give up on astrology because of that.
Click to expand...
Hey, that's a good question! :smile:
 
1

13.Fairy

Member
FarEastUranus said:
No worries Fairy, I wasn't addressing to you. I am not keeping my details from the astrologers on this forum, but from people who may know me in person, having been stalked in the past. An easy search of my birthday would get them to this forum. Thanks for understanding.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry about that. It's ok, I have understanding for that. Do you see yourself a bit more in these other signs? I would like to know, because for me it totally works. And by the way I always thought myself to have the characteristics and energies my signs (calculated back, I took 24,30 from the draconic) represent and stand for, as I couldn't see myself in the tropical and neither the sidereal signs.
 
FarEastUranus

FarEastUranus

Well-known member
13.Fairy said:
Hey FarEastUranus,

I calculated your chart and here's the result: Sun and Ascendant in Capricorn (for the ambition), Moon exalted in Taurus even at 3° degree, at it's exact exaltation, Jupiter in Libra, Saturn in Sagittarius, Uranus in Pisces, Neptune in Aries, and a stellium of Mercury, Venus, Mars and Pluto all in Aquarius. No wonder you call yourself FarEastUranus, lol. Your intuition proved right. All that is left of Virgo is a Chiron placed in Virgo.

It's like we switched with the ascendant, lol, my geocentric Asc was in Capricorn, now in Virgo.
Click to expand...

Hi Fairy,

I totally missed this post, for some reason. Oops.

Can you post a visual chart and your method for deriving this.

For the most part, it could fit. Except the Neptune in Aries, but of course, the house position is more important here.

To answer to you about my own evaluations of myself, I will try to summarize my own understanding of myself as best as I can based on the knowledge that I gained from the analysis of my chart and the help that I got here:

My life is primarily consumed by my quest for knowledge and documenting the steps along the way with my art.

On the surface, Mercury (in Libra) is my strongest asset as I am great with anything related to systematic and structural analysis, communication (excellent writer, ex-debate champion), languages (I speak and write in 3 languages with complete fluency), mathematics (may be related to Libra), phenomenal memory (esp. music and languages, but can also have bad memory on other things)...

However, I tend to take my mercurial abilities for granted.

My ideas (messages) are very Uranian, revolutionary and often electronics/new media-based. I've always been rebellious, unruly, ready to turn things upside down. I've also been sent to the doctor for hyperactivity and diagnosed as ADHD multiple times throughout my life. Ever since I truly found what I want to say in art, that tendency has been channeled just into my art. I still have hyper-distractibility alternated with bouts of hyper-focus, but the social disruptiveness is gone.

My art is more about paring down to something essential and elemental, de-cluttering, being incisive and to the point, poetry without wordiness, and it usually creates a deep and emotional shock to people (both in music and art). I have a powerful desire to etch a deep imprint on others' psyche, to touch his/her emotional core (I demand intensity in my art and sex) and am very little interested in surface contacts with people. In fact, I think that my art and love life is very Scorpion, and I don't demonstrate this energy in everyday life, because I notice that whatever energy I disperse outside of my art just weakens the focus within.

Therefore, if I cannot reach a deep connection with people, I usually disengage emotionally and put up a jovial Jupitarian, clownish mask. I can also talk to just about anyone, from the fruit vendor in the street to the star in the room, because I love to gain vicarious knowledge through hearing about their life stories and can empathize pretty easily. Interestingly, most people think that I have a knack for social interactions, networking, striking deals, and making things happen (Jupiter in Gemini, 10th house).

But really I prefer to be just with just one person at a time for my emotional needs, and I deeply immerse and merge with the person, to the point of becoming one. I also relish large chunks of time (ideally weeks) spent in solitude. I'm not sure if that's related to 12th house Saturn.

Recently, I have been excavating Neptunian 4th house domains, and how it relates to the 12th house Saturn. I think that my Saturn is super weak and ineffective, and the Sun-Neptune square are literally "unconscious" parts of my psyche.
 
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FarEastUranus

FarEastUranus

Well-known member
In terms of guesses from others, people who don't know me well usually guess Sagittarius (#1 in the guesses) or Gemini (#2). Libra also sounds plausible to them, but rarely would they guess Virgo (Sun/Asc) or Capricorn (Moon).

Many think that I can't focus and when they see my work, they are astonished by the single-minded, systematic, and obsessive approach to my work.
 
T

tdave365

New member
I'm going to suggest something a little more mechanical than interpretative, which is that it's possible your birth time is inaccurate. Not necessarily by the recorded time but by the "binding" that takes place between one's personality and celestial influence.

Astrologers understand that the birth time works and works well in broad practice, but since birth is a process, most are left settling on their own logic for when birth "counts" individually. If you are adamant about the traits you describe you might consider a slight rectification based not on record of birth-time but actual life events and of course your own assessment of personality, with an eye to pinpointing an earlier birth that would in fact give you a Leo rising.

It's unsettling perhaps but there is nothing magical about a printed or recalled birth-time. In my personal opinion all charts require a degree of rectification by default although it is frequently not done when a birth time is confidently presented by a client. Some astrologers might hold that a recorded birth time is always solid because they equate it to a sort of "horary" time stamp which is to say that if it is the time given, it is the time meant to count. However, the underlying mechanics of astrology are probably more methodological than that. And, in a case like yours, it could obviously matter in a big way.

If we assume astrological influences took hold earlier by approximately 1 hour in your case, your Moon -- by far the most important personality indicator IMHO - would slide into the 5th House (Leo) and your rising sign would be Leo. That's two powerful Leo indicators in one shot. You would still have to account for Virgo Sun of course but since the Sun's role is typically overplayed, or at least easily eclipsed by more powerful influences, you wouldn't want to get hung up on that. You are unquestionably a Virgo, having asked your question out of a sense of illogical contradiction that less precise people would shrug off. :)

- Dave
 
FarEastUranus

FarEastUranus

Well-known member
That is a possibility suggested by a forum member who is able to do advanced calculations on Asc openings and suggested 15 or 18 Leo, 24 or 27 Cancer as the right Asc. In fact, he said that there was no possibility of my Asc being Virgo...

My Moon is already in the 5th house isn't it? One can argue that it's between the 4th and the 5th, but since my mom is a Leo and music educator, I assumed my Capricorn Moon to be in the 5th house.

Interestingly, my dad is a Pisces and Saturn is in my 12th house. I had a strong spiritual tie to my father and he was very dedicated to my upbringing. However, I'm beginning to think that maybe Piscean energy or Neptune is making me have problems with structure - my dad was incredibly absent-minded, as he was mostly in the zone, a bit Einstein like (he was a theoretical physicist). Things like forgetting to put the film in the camera for my graduation photos, going to the airport one day too late, etc.

Also, for me, my Venus is in the 1st house, but some think it's in the 2nd...
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
FarEastUranus said:
That is a possibility suggested by a forum member who is able to do advanced calculations on Asc openings and suggested 15 or 18 Leo as the right Asc. In fact, he said that there was no possibility of my Asc being Virgo...
Click to expand...
Astrologers vary according to method and therefore it is accepted practice for the source of their particular method to be provided to the enquirer.

To be reliably able to say 'no possibility of Virgo' must be based on quotable sources

- if an astrologer is unable to provide their sources then that understandably leads to accusations of astrology being simply superstition and a rich field for charlatans :smile:
 
FarEastUranus

FarEastUranus

Well-known member
greybeard said:
But observe your chart. There are two planets above the horizon. All the rest are contained by (lie between) Sun in Virgo (Earth) and Moon in Capricorn (Earth). You have Sun square Neptune, both angular. She brought you down to Earth. Whatever you feel about her (you won't say what you feel, [You are too Chinese to do that] but it shows between the cracks)....
Click to expand...

When you say "she", do you mean my mother?

Yes, mom's role is to bring me down to earth.

Recently, I realized that I dislike Saturnine people who pour water on my enthusiasm, and my enthusiasm is boundless, the sky is the limit.

Usually they say, you have to have a steady job, you have to choose your country of residence, you won't make money just with art and should get a PhD and a faculty job, you have to do things step-by-step... In many ways, my mom had all the potential to become "great", as she is both talented and efficient, but this step-by-step cautious approach prevented her from having really big visions about where she should go, and she ended up being excellent in her domain, but with no desire to further it.

I wish I was as efficient as her. But I wonder if there would be a trade-off with Jupiterian big visions. One example is, she just put out a CD of her singing well ahead of schedule, early for Christmas (contrary to me who always procrastinate until the last possible minute). But she only did it for friends and family, instead of wanting to make it public, professional, or profitable. One can say it's because she's reaching retirement, but she's been like that her whole life... She's the most well-known music teacher in the whole district, but it never occurs to her to raise her prices or open up her own school...

I rarely put that much effort in things that wouldn't bring results to my goals. Oddly, people tell me that's my form of pragmatism. I think that putting effort means doing things for pragmatic reasons (Saturn), whereas following your inspirations is more Neptune's domain. Perhaps what is Neptunian to my mother seems like a huge amount of work to me...
 
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13.Fairy

Member
FarEastUranus said:
Hi Fairy,

I totally missed this post, for some reason. Oops.

Can you post a visual chart and your method for deriving this.

For the most part, it could fit. Except the Neptune in Aries, but of course, the house position is more important here.

To answer to you about my own evaluations of myself, I will try to summarize my own understanding of myself as best as I can based on the knowledge that I gained from the analysis of my chart and the help that I got here:

My life is primarily consumed by my quest for knowledge and documenting the steps along the way with my art.

On the surface, Mercury (in Libra) is my strongest asset as I am great with anything related to systematic and structural analysis, communication (excellent writer, ex-debate champion), languages (I speak and write in 3 languages with complete fluency), mathematics (may be related to Libra), phenomenal memory (esp. music and languages, but can also have bad memory on other things)...

However, I tend to take my mercurial abilities for granted.

My ideas (messages) are very Uranian, revolutionary and often electronics/new media-based. I've always been rebellious, unruly, ready to turn things upside down. I've also been sent to the doctor for hyperactivity and diagnosed as ADHD multiple times throughout my life. Ever since I truly found what I want to say in art, that tendency has been channeled just into my art. I still have hyper-distractibility alternated with bouts of hyper-focus, but the social disruptiveness is gone.

My art is more about paring down to something essential and elemental, de-cluttering, being incisive and to the point, poetry without wordiness, and it usually creates a deep and emotional shock to people (both in music and art). I have a powerful desire to etch a deep imprint on others' psyche, to touch his/her emotional core (I demand intensity in my art and sex) and am very little interested in surface contacts with people. In fact, I think that my art and love life is very Scorpion, and I don't demonstrate this energy in everyday life, because I notice that whatever energy I disperse outside of my art just weakens the focus within.

Therefore, if I cannot reach a deep connection with people, I usually disengage emotionally and put up a jovial Jupitarian, clownish mask. I can also talk to just about anyone, from the fruit vendor in the street to the star in the room, because I love to gain vicarious knowledge through hearing about their life stories and can empathize pretty easily. Interestingly, most people think that I have a knack for social interactions, networking, striking deals, and making things happen (Jupiter in Gemini, 10th house).

But really I prefer to be just with just one person at a time for my emotional needs, and I deeply immerse and merge with the person, to the point of becoming one. I also relish large chunks of time (ideally weeks) spent in solitude. I'm not sure if that's related to 12th house Saturn.

Recently, I have been excavating Neptunian 4th house domains, and how it relates to the 12th house Saturn. I think that my Saturn is super weak and ineffective, and the Sun-Neptune square are literally "unconscious" parts of my psyche.
Click to expand...

Hey FarEastUranus,

If you want to apply my method, I will explain to you what it is...

The tropical chart is not the real positions of the planets in the sky, since the precession of the equinox is real. The beginning of spring or the spring equinox is at some 5° Pisces, that means the 21st of March is in 5° Pisces and not 0° Aries.

So, if you want to find out what the actual planets positions was at your time of birth, you have to make a sidereal chart. You can do so at http://www.astro.com
To apply my method:
First make a normal western geocentric natal chart. Choose view the additional tables pdf file and save it on your pc.
Go back and make the sidereal chart, choose the extended chart selection and by options choose the Fagan/Bradley geocentric sidereal. Save it just like the natal chart.
Then make one more chart, the draconic, change the options to draconic and save it too.
Next step is to calculate the degrees and minutes difference from your natal sun to the sidereal sun position. In my case it was 24.30°. It won't be a big difference in your case, since the precession is very slow, something like 1° every 71.5 years. Take care, for the calculator one unit is 100 and minutes are only 60, so count it manually.
The difference you counted is logically the same for every other planet in your chart, since the aspects and the planets positions in the houses remains the same, only the signs change.
When you have the difference, take the draconic chart and count back the difference from the draconic degrees back. Do so for every planet.
For example: My draconic sun was in 24.33°, counting back 24.30° makes 0.03° Libra, my draconic mercury at 17.30° Libra, counting back 24.30° it is in 23° Virgo. Do so with every planet, counting back.

The draconic chart corresponds to the tropical chart, but the sidereal draconic corresponds to the sidereal chart.
And that's the chart you get by applying this method.

I had the chance that my chart was a more extreme case and I couldn't see myself in it and so I researched because it didn't give me ease.
In my case, I see myself only in that chart.

The aspects and planets positions in the houses remain the same, choosing any kind of chart, but what if we don't see ourselves in the signs given in your natal chart?
The point is about psychology, character, the essence of somebodies being, the nature of the energies of a planet since it's a big difference if you have for example sun in Capricorn or in Libra, mercury in Capricorn or in Virgo, the moon in Pisces or in Scorpio. The character is defined by that, the emanations, the natures of the energies which we possess.

And about what you said that in love life you are intense like scorpio, probably that's because all fixed signs are fixed and intense in their own way when it comes to love. Aquarius has a Uranian, charismatic energy and your Moon in Taurus is a fixed exalted Moon.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I hope you understood the method and I'm glad if I could help.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
 
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