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  #6626  
Unread 09-25-2019, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Yes. Elegant and very ancient. Goes back to King Wen, c.3000 B.C.E.
Very popular in the 1960s.
Itís a blessing to be able to study ancient wisdom without temporal and social binding - to be able to use it as binding. From what I know of the I Ching its principles are sort of saturnine, even the throwing of coins. Could be interesting to try now since my ideas of beauty are evolving and can incorporate what youíve referred to as integrated Saturn.

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  #6627  
Unread 09-25-2019, 03:15 PM
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So sorry about the job Is there any more option you can look into?
She said itís a no but sheís going to speak to Human Resources and see if she can still get me in but to consider it a no.

Iím disappointed in the job but itís more stressful because time is money and the fact I had to wait so many weeks to find out. Iím just going to look for another job, itís no big deal now I know whatís going on.
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  #6628  
Unread 09-25-2019, 03:37 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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She said itís a no but sheís going to speak to Human Resources and see if she can still get me in but to consider it a no.

Iím disappointed in the job but itís more stressful because time is money and the fact I had to wait so many weeks to find out. Iím just going to look for another job, itís no big deal now I know whatís going on.
Yeah, I do hope you will find another job. And it was just because your old boss made a mistake! I could suggest you ask a horary question but seeing that you're stressed right now the last thing you would want to hear is more bad news. I think you should take some time to calm down. Pray for the God you were talking about if you can. Or even ask for guidance from your Tarot. Just some things you can do to cope with all the disappointment.


On a brighter note, at least you still have some time to go to AW and chat with people
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  #6629  
Unread 09-25-2019, 03:39 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
Itís a blessing to be able to study ancient wisdom without temporal and social binding - to be able to use it as binding. From what I know of the I Ching its principles are sort of saturnine, even the throwing of coins. Could be interesting to try now since my ideas of beauty are evolving and can incorporate what youíve referred to as integrated Saturn.
I have heard about the I Ching before, but I haven't planned to look into it yet, simply because I can't find good resources to learn it.



Do you happen to have a strong Saturn in your chart? Or a strong Venus?
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  #6630  
Unread 09-25-2019, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Gemini888 View Post
These days I mostly do reading with my TdM. I like it because it has the most neutral images out of all decks I have, so it doesn't do too much pampering or too much negativity. But after hearing about how the cards can lie I think I have to reevaluate my decks
It could be a personal thing. You might not push them as hard as I do or get mad at them for just being cards. Kind of Iike using phone maps. If you look up and can see a particular route jammed in the horizon, and the map tells you to take that route instead of the off-map route you know to be better.. itís not the mapís fault when you go that way anyway and sit in precisely the jam you saw coming.
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  #6631  
Unread 09-25-2019, 03:47 PM
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I have heard about the I Ching before, but I haven't planned to look into it yet, simply because I can't find good resources to learn it.



Do you happen to have a strong Saturn in your chart? Or a strong Venus?
Neither is traditionally considered strong but both have ďaccidental dignityĒ and they are widely sextile each other plus doing important work in my chart.
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  #6632  
Unread 09-25-2019, 03:48 PM
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It could be a personal thing. You might not push them as hard as I do or get mad at them for just being cards. Kind of Iike using phone maps. If you look up and can see a particular route jammed in the horizon, and the map tells you to take that route instead of the off-map route you know to be better.. itís not the mapís fault when you go that way anyway and sit in precisely the jam you saw coming.
Interesting analogy regarding I Ching, which was originally used by travelers to determine safe routes.
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  #6633  
Unread 09-25-2019, 03:54 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Neither is traditionally considered strong but both have ďaccidental dignityĒ and they are widely sextile each other plus doing important work in my chart.
I see. So it could be how you're drawn to the I Ching's structure. I like how I Ching consists of lines and shapes and Saturn is into those things.
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  #6634  
Unread 09-25-2019, 03:56 PM
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I see. So it could be how you're drawn to the I Ching's structure. I like how I Ching consists of lines and shapes and Saturn is into those things.
Yes probably. Natural geometry is beautiful. Where is your Saturn?
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  #6635  
Unread 09-25-2019, 03:58 PM
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Yeah, I do hope you will find another job. And it was just because your old boss made a mistake! I could suggest you ask a horary question but seeing that you're stressed right now the last thing you would want to hear is more bad news. I think you should take some time to calm down. Pray for the God you were talking about if you can. Or even ask for guidance from your Tarot. Just some things you can do to cope with all the disappointment.


On a brighter note, at least you still have some time to go to AW and chat with people
Yes I asked horary a couple weeks ago because the job had been delayed and it didnít look overly positive, although the job did was strong and my sig was strong. So when she phoned and told me, I ahd already a heads up from horary

ALSO I was speaking to someone from a fb astrology group who is very good at astrology. He mentioned he thinks he was a soldier in a pat life who had succumbed to alcoholism and I asked him to look at my chart for a past life and what he said was mind-blowing and made my issues about family and men very clear to me.

This all happened within the same weekend as all this drama. Both the drama and the random insight from a past life.

The universe kicked my *** for not having strong enough boundaries and gave me further insight to myself.

Last night, I caught up on sleep and feel back to normal.

The universe has helped me and itís all came from within my own psyche. I just need to up my boundaries. Plus a little disappointment in life with the job is normal.

Thatís how I usually process things, from within my own psyche and itís very rare I would consult the bible. Even when I did it 3/4 years ago it was with the attitude of Ďok letís see what I find if anything.í But mostly, everything you need is from within and working on yourself.

The previous work I have done on myself has matured me and made disappointments much easier to handle, I feel like a woman who has inner strength and not a little girl who is lost.

I feel good!! Although ****, it was a good job I was offered but horary gave me the heads up so no sudden shock.

Iím feeling good and capable of forging ahead. Like a warrior
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  #6636  
Unread 09-25-2019, 04:42 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Yes probably. Natural geometry is beautiful. Where is your Saturn?
In 12H and in Pisces. And recently I seem to realize that my Saturn is getting stronger. Could be that it is approaching a sextile to transit Pluto. I started to have a taste for people who can do scientific study out of "abstract" things. Last year I finished Edwin Shneidman's A Suicidal Mind. The man wrote the book during the time when suicide was seen as side-effect of a myriad of things like depression. So the man proposed a new idea that we should treat suicide as a cause by itself, resulting in a more humane look into suicide and psychology in general. And now I'm reading Michael Eigen's The Psychotic Core. The general idea is that madness is actually the "shadow" part of the human mind and there needs to be a different way to look at it rather than charting it up into the biased "normal vs mad" category. These are just some things to demonstrate how my Saturn currently works, creating structure out of chaos.


How about your Saturn?
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  #6637  
Unread 09-25-2019, 05:11 PM
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Hey, that's a cool website. For once a website that doesn't fall into the pop astrology **** rambling. I have bookmarked it.


Oh, and I have been wondering this for some time now, but when did the father/mother indicators swap place between the 10H/4H? I can understand how modern changes a lot of trad's original significators, but that one just seems out of nowhere.
There's a non trivial amount of websites that actually have decent information, but you won't see them if you do a shallow search. Recently it seems that even the blogs are stepping up their game because I see them culling from legitimate sources.

I can't tell you an exact date, but it seemed to have occurred last century, when the "astrological alphabet" became the dominant viewpoint of sign/house interrelationship. (Aries = 1st house = Mars). It seems established that it was the astrologer Zipporah Dobyns that popularized it.
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  #6638  
Unread 09-25-2019, 05:14 PM
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In 12H and in Pisces. And recently I seem to realize that my Saturn is getting stronger. Could be that it is approaching a sextile to transit Pluto. I started to have a taste for people who can do scientific study out of "abstract" things. Last year I finished Edwin Shneidman's A Suicidal Mind. The man wrote the book during the time when suicide was seen as side-effect of a myriad of things like depression. So the man proposed a new idea that we should treat suicide as a cause by itself, resulting in a more humane look into suicide and psychology in general. And now I'm reading Michael Eigen's The Psychotic Core. The general idea is that madness is actually the "shadow" part of the human mind and there needs to be a different way to look at it rather than charting it up into the biased "normal vs mad" category. These are just some things to demonstrate how my Saturn currently works, creating structure out of chaos.


How about your Saturn?
I am impressed you are citing Michael Eigen. How did you come to discover his work?

My Saturn is in 12h in Virgo.
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  #6639  
Unread 09-26-2019, 02:31 AM
moonkat235 moonkat235 is offline
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Originally Posted by Gemini888 View Post
In 12H and in Pisces. And recently I seem to realize that my Saturn is getting stronger. Could be that it is approaching a sextile to transit Pluto. I started to have a taste for people who can do scientific study out of "abstract" things. Last year I finished Edwin Shneidman's A Suicidal Mind. The man wrote the book during the time when suicide was seen as side-effect of a myriad of things like depression. So the man proposed a new idea that we should treat suicide as a cause by itself, resulting in a more humane look into suicide and psychology in general. And now I'm reading Michael Eigen's The Psychotic Core. The general idea is that madness is actually the "shadow" part of the human mind and there needs to be a different way to look at it rather than charting it up into the biased "normal vs mad" category. These are just some things to demonstrate how my Saturn currently works, creating structure out of chaos.


How about your Saturn?
Random Thought Process:

"Madness is the shadow"
1. I haven't read Carl Jung, but I assume the shadow is the rejected part of the self. Under that assumption, is madness rejected by most 'normal people' because the general population rejects their shadow?
2. If the shadow is the unintegrated aspect of self, I wonder what 'self' even is and then I thought about how language shapes our reality. Like 'self' seems like a word to contain and distinguish some nebulous thing that I can't quite put my finger on.
3. And then if one consciously accepts the non-shadow self, do they reject 'madness' because they can't consciously relate it to their own individual experience?
4. Mostly, I was writing down antonyms, because they kept popping into my head as I was thinking about the above quote.
Separation & Distinction
Self & Other
Individual & Collective
Order & Disorder
Health/Wellness & Unhealthy/Diseased
Normal & Abnormal/Anomaly
Universal & Personal
5. And then I went down the whole spiral that always happens to me when I get on these tangents, which is, as always:
What is 'real'?
6. I feel like collective agreement and head-nodding on personal experiences as 'universal' is basically what 'normal' is, but that's definitely an oversimplification and I don't really know if that means anything or chips away at the BS to get to the core of what I'm 'asking'.

Anyway, I have no idea where I'm going with this, but I want to ask something. Like I feel very deeply that I want to know something, but I can't even begin to articulate what I really want or what need I want fulfilled.
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  #6640  
Unread 09-26-2019, 02:37 AM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

The Jungian self is actually not divided along a self vs. other axis, as it is actually the totality of the individual's psyche. Think of it like the symbol of the Tao, instead of just either the yin or the yang aspect of it.

More from this little article.
https://frithluton.com/articles/self/
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  #6641  
Unread 09-26-2019, 02:39 AM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

Oh also, the 'Psychotic Core' title made me think of this Ted Talk by Eleanor Longden on her experience with schizophrenia.

"My voices were a meaningful response to traumatic life events, particularly childhood events, and as such were not my enemies but a source of insight into solvable emotional problems."

Eleanor Longden - The voices in my head
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  #6642  
Unread 09-26-2019, 02:41 AM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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The Jungian self is actually not divided along a self vs. other axis, as it is actually the totality of the individual's psyche. Think of it like the symbol of the Tao, instead of just either the yin or the yang aspect of it.

More from this little article.
https://frithluton.com/articles/self/
Thanks dude, reading now.
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  #6643  
Unread 09-26-2019, 03:42 AM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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I am impressed you are citing Michael Eigen. How did you come to discover his work?

My Saturn is in 12h in Virgo.
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I didn't tell you much about my Saturn in Virgo 12H because yours is so interesting Mine works to make me finicky about acknowledging the way in which perception shapes reality and the act of observation shifts that which is observed, aware of the political dynamics of health institutions, aware of politics in science. It makes me super detail oriented about theory and needing to be true to 'source data' in contrast to the big picture Sagittarian planets.
Does Pisces Saturn square your Gemini Sun? And your Aries Moon is in 12th? I think my Moon is at your Asc.
My discovery of Michael Eigen was a pure coincidence. I was searching for a book about depression, and then somehow that book came up. I read the description and at first I thought it was just a book about psychosis, but I was interested enough to order it. And as soon as I read the foreword I realized that this is more than just a book about psychosis. And I was like "That's definitely the kind of book I want to read "


I have always been interested in how 12H Saturn in other signs works, especially in my opposite sign of Virgo. There seems to be a lot of Virgo in here, health, science, analysis... How do you think 12H shapes Virgo's perception?


And yeah, Pisces Saturn squares my Merc, just another heavyweight for my Merc to carry (it already squares Chiron too). Moon is only 1 deg to Asc that I think it lies more in 1H than 12H. My Asc is 25 deg btw.
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  #6644  
Unread 09-26-2019, 04:18 AM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

I also have Saturn square Merc. How does that affect you as a Gem? Maybe less with Moon conj Asc? In my case I am much less chatty and a LOT kinder and than I used to be. Seriously I could melt the skin off someone in total innocence while younger and at some point, not sure why,... just put the brakes on that and withdrew into myself. Winning didnít matter half as much as finding the boundaries of shared reality.

Not sure how 12h affects Virgo - itís all I know ;-) In my case it describes the pregnancy of my brilliant mother who herself is perfectly illustrated by my Moon. Do you feel Moon describes your mother?
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  #6645  
Unread 09-26-2019, 02:53 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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I also have Saturn square Merc. How does that affect you as a Gem? Maybe less with Moon conj Asc? In my case I am much less chatty and a LOT kinder and than I used to be. Seriously I could melt the skin off someone in total innocence while younger and at some point, not sure why,... just put the brakes on that and withdrew into myself. Winning didnít matter half as much as finding the boundaries of shared reality.

Not sure how 12h affects Virgo - itís all I know ;-) In my case it describes the pregnancy of my brilliant mother who herself is perfectly illustrated by my Moon. Do you feel Moon describes your mother?
Merc is my chart's final dispositor, so Saturn and Chiron really influence Merc. For a long time before I started serious astrology learning I wondered at times why I don't have some of the signature Gemini traits like adaptability or overly friendliness, and it saddened me that I wasn't a "real" Gem. I'm pretty sure now it's Saturn and Chiron's doing. They are in a T-square with Merc as the focal point btw. You are a Sag so maybe you don't feel so strongly about Merc like a Gem, your concern is more about Jupiter I suppose


The signs of Merc/Saturn could be important in this dynamic. In my case Gem is at odd with Pisces. So one minute I could be super cerebral and the next minute I could be highly emotional. I wonder how Sag and Virgo work for you. Maybe a struggle between being careful and being candid?


My mom is an Aqua Sun and Moon, but she has a fair share of Aries placements as well (at least according to her rectified chart). I have always had a love-hate relationship with her. I love her, but there are some things about her that I just can't stand, a lot of Aries-like things. In the end she is quite endearing, and she could be even more so if she learns to listen more and change some of those Aries things. Idk if the Aries things are because of my Asc being torn between the 12H and 1H or not.
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  #6646  
Unread 09-26-2019, 03:09 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
Random Thought Process:

"Madness is the shadow"
1. I haven't read Carl Jung, but I assume the shadow is the rejected part of the self. Under that assumption, is madness rejected by most 'normal people' because the general population rejects their shadow?
2. If the shadow is the unintegrated aspect of self, I wonder what 'self' even is and then I thought about how language shapes our reality. Like 'self' seems like a word to contain and distinguish some nebulous thing that I can't quite put my finger on.
3. And then if one consciously accepts the non-shadow self, do they reject 'madness' because they can't consciously relate it to their own individual experience?
4. Mostly, I was writing down antonyms, because they kept popping into my head as I was thinking about the above quote.
Separation & Distinction
Self & Other
Individual & Collective
Order & Disorder
Health/Wellness & Unhealthy/Diseased
Normal & Abnormal/Anomaly
Universal & Personal
5. And then I went down the whole spiral that always happens to me when I get on these tangents, which is, as always:
What is 'real'?
6. I feel like collective agreement and head-nodding on personal experiences as 'universal' is basically what 'normal' is, but that's definitely an oversimplification and I don't really know if that means anything or chips away at the BS to get to the core of what I'm 'asking'.

Anyway, I have no idea where I'm going with this, but I want to ask something. Like I feel very deeply that I want to know something, but I can't even begin to articulate what I really want or what need I want fulfilled.

I'm sorry that I can't really comment on any of these, because tbh I'm just getting started with that book So far what I got from the book is just some old theories about madness, mostly from Freud and Jung. The author of the book is outlining the background of his own theory to come, and according to him Freud really supported the idea that madness is part of the human mind. He actually took inspiration from another German psychologist who went mad for some time. That German man seemed to have seen the 12H version of the world and ended up adopting spirituality for his work. The book also talks about some things from Freud's discovery of narcissism and dreams to further support the theory. Yeah, the book mostly talks about Freud. Jung is just there as a background character


But in the foreword, the author proposed a term called "kernel of psychosis". He promised to go into it in later chapters, but he briefly introduced it as the combination of human's two versions of self, for example the real self vs the perceived self or the "Self & Other" thing you said. And in the beginning of first chapter he did say that madness is a raw expression of several underlying psychological aspects. In other words, madness isn't exactly something to be afraid of, once you understand it properly.


So yeah, just a brief summary of what I got from the book so far.
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  #6647  
Unread 09-26-2019, 03:39 PM
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Yes include Jesus Christ so he can smear your life with his heavenly hand full of his own **** in your face if thats anyones free will choice to have that heavenly experience smeared all over them and so on. And such.

Y
My friend, O Supreme Jesus Christ said:"Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me."

He also said:"If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you."

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PVF.HTM

I forgive you.
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  #6648  
Unread 09-26-2019, 06:33 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Merc is my chart's final dispositor, so Saturn and Chiron really influence Merc. For a long time before I started serious astrology learning I wondered at times why I don't have some of the signature Gemini traits like adaptability or overly friendliness, and it saddened me that I wasn't a "real" Gem. I'm pretty sure now it's Saturn and Chiron's doing. They are in a T-square with Merc as the focal point btw. You are a Sag so maybe you don't feel so strongly about Merc like a Gem, your concern is more about Jupiter I suppose
I experience you as friendly and adaptable and certainly Mercurial, and this negative assessment of these particular traits seems maybe culturally relative. Or maybe it's just the internet allows you to display these traits differently than might be the case in real life. We don't do much random talking on the astrology board, but are rather more interested in the interplay of energies. In real life there is actually a lot of physical information that has to be processed and small talk provides a kind of safe container for all these sort of subconscious processings.

I'm actually fairly Mercury obsessed but you're correct to some degree as mine is disposed by Jupiter. You have Chiron in Sagittarius?

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Originally Posted by Gemini888 View Post
The signs of Merc/Saturn could be important in this dynamic. In my case Gem is at odd with Pisces. So one minute I could be super cerebral and the next minute I could be highly emotional. I wonder how Sag and Virgo work for you. Maybe a struggle between being careful and being candid?
Yes, something like that. Sag wants a universal connector and Virgo says listen, we only use gold-plated HDMI over here.

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Originally Posted by Gemini888 View Post
My mom is an Aqua Sun and Moon, but she has a fair share of Aries placements as well (at least according to her rectified chart). I have always had a love-hate relationship with her. I love her, but there are some things about her that I just can't stand, a lot of Aries-like things. In the end she is quite endearing, and she could be even more so if she learns to listen more and change some of those Aries things. Idk if the Aries things are because of my Asc being torn between the 12H and 1H or not.
I thought of your Mom as Aqua for some reason. Do you associate 12h with prenatal experience at all?
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  #6649  
Unread 09-26-2019, 07:34 PM
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Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

In Hindu philosophy the word Ďmadí is used to describe the sin called ego.
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  #6650  
Unread 09-26-2019, 07:53 PM
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Smile Re: Random Thoughts, strictly Text

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Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
I experience you as friendly and adaptable and certainly Mercurial, and this negative assessment of these particular traits seems maybe culturally relative. Or maybe it's just the internet allows you to display these traits differently than might be the case in real life. We don't do much random talking on the astrology board, but are rather more interested in the interplay of energies. In real life there is actually a lot of physical information that has to be processed and small talk provides a kind of safe container for all these sort of subconscious processings.

I'm actually fairly Mercury obsessed but you're correct to some degree as mine is disposed by Jupiter. You have Chiron in Sagittarius?



Yes, something like that. Sag wants a universal connector and Virgo says listen, we only use gold-plated HDMI over here.



I thought of your Mom as Aqua for some reason. Do you associate 12h with prenatal experience at all?

Passiflora, what's your assessment of the Ego/Id/Superego construct? (Not about Freud himself, but about his well-known but difficult-to-explain model of how our minds function.) With Saturn in Virgo in H12, your insights are valuable.
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