Black Moon Lilith Orb

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david starling

Well-known member
Frisiangal said:
Personally, I don't think calling BML 'Shadow Moon Lilith' would make any difference to what it represents and how it seemingly works. Are you suggesting the name has a (negative) 'psychological' effect that is prpojected upon how people interpret its effects. I don't interpret it as a 'shadow' of the Moon. It seems to be the exact opposite; it is inner action, not REactional response as is the Moon.

Do you think the planets would act differently in their positions if Venus had been named Mars and vice versa, etc.etc., OR even called Beauty, War, Peace, Reverence, Fear, etc.? And if the big 7 were named after the 7 deadly sins, for instance. Is interpretting astrological symbolism all an effect of the 'association projection' towards their names given them? Or did the names given in the ancient teachings arise through observation of co-incidences over a long period of time? Did the ancients even consider personal behaviour in their deductions?

Long ago I stopped thinking of BML as a 'she', and as an 'it'. I believe the femininity applied to it refers to the active inner feeling that arises from it, similar to how, or perhaps the same as, instinct can work. It is present in both male and female charts.



I had never heard of it, and could find no serious reseach on it through Internet. The Black Sun represents something else (https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13389), I read G. Bode's book many, many years ago.

Is Black Sun Saturn something different to Saturn as the Night Sun in Eastern astrology?
Does aphelion refer Saturn's furthest distance from the Sun or Earth (as per BML)?

:smile:
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It's ALL about the elliptical orbits, discovered by Johan Kepler, which destroyed the classical Greek model of "perfectly circular" orbits.

"Black Moon" is at the Moon's Apogee on its orbit around the Earth, where the center-line of the Moon's eliptical orbit intersects the zodiac when the Moon is at its farthest distance from the Earth.

The "gee" refers to the Earth, which the Moon is orbiting. With the planets, the farthest distance is from the Sun, which they are orbiting in the Heliocentric model, so it's called the "aphelion". Every planet in our Solar System has both a point of Aphelion and its opposite, the point of Perihelion, when its closest to the Sun.

Kind of difficult not to think of "Lilith" as feminine. It's said to be about the inner "bad girl" in a woman's chart, and how a man reacts emotionally to "bad girls" in a man's chart.
 
leomoon

leomoon

Well-known member
It may not make "logical" sense to call the BML a shadow but i think the idea is it "feels" like we are being chased by a Moon's shadow sometimes, especially when something occurs and we verify that something via the transits ....its hard not to think of it as chasing us.
(whatever "it" is) :pouty:


I would however think too that a Virgo Astrologer might have true difficulty with naming something differently then is the custom, unlike one with strong Cancer or Pisces influences.

(just my "off the cuff" thought of the BML)




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L56rAG5aK0
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Frisiangal's idea of "inner energy" contained within an elliptical orbit sounds intriguing. I'm using precession of the Earth's elliptical orbit for the tropical Ages, concentrated at the Perihelion. That's where the Earth's orbit is closest to Sun, whereas BML energy is concentrated at where the Moon's orbit is farthest from the Earth.

I could imagine an energy flow of some sort along the orbital center-line, much like the SN energy flow to the NN where the Moon's orbit intersects the Earth-Sun orbital plane on which we base our zodiac Signs and Houses.

For the tropical Ages, the flow would then be from the farthest (Point of Aphelion) to the closest (Point of Perihelion) regarding Earth's proximity to the Sun.

For BML, it's predicated to be flowing from the closest (Point of Perigee) Lunar approach to the Earth, to the farthest (Point of Apogee) Lunar distance away from the Earth. But, I see no contradiction, because of the extremely different nature of the Earth/Sun relationship versus the Moon/Earth pairing.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
ScorpArcher said:
I am working on the chart of a friend, and struggling with Black Moon Lilith. There is little material available, including on orb of influence. The website I use displays BML and her aspects, but I have noted that my friends' Mercury is 3.5 degrees away from BML, but there is no conjunction listed in the aspect list. I do not want to miss including something as important as a conjunction here, so my question is, what is the effective orb of BML, and does a 3.5 degree difference qualify as a conjunction in this chart?
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I use an orb of 3 degrees in longitude and about 1-1.5 degrees in declination.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
There's also the counterpart to BML, which is being called White Moon Selene. It's the other end of the centerline of Moon's elliptical orbit around the Earth. Same orb would apply to both. I see no logical reasons to ignore WMS entirely, and focus ONLY on BML. It would be like focusing only on the SN and ignoring the NN.
 
Humanitarian

Humanitarian

Well-known member
david starling said:
How about "Far Moon Lilith", meaning, wild, ungrounded emotion?

And, "Close Moon Selene", meaning helpful, grounded emotion?

That would be in keeping with their astrological interpretations, without the racial undertones.
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Selene isn't the closest point on the moon's orbit to the Earth, it is Priapus, opposite Oscillating Lilith (True Lilith).
 
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Humanitarian

Humanitarian

Well-known member
leomoon said:
Fris:


We spoke many times regarding the loss of my daughter and the Tr. BML cj. my P.O.F within one degree at the very end of my 5th house. :sad:
You may recall that I usually when posting about BML bring this up, because it's something I've never been able to grasp or clarify / to myself considering her own daughters who lost their mom, also had TR BML 15 deg. Sagittarius opposing their 12th house (sub-conscious?) 15 deg. natal BML. Something is up here,but I still can't make clear just what exactly.


I our cases, (twin daughters had their natal BML opposition, (exact deg.) and I had the P.O.F. conjunct. Neither of course a planet.



Yet I simply cannot dismiss this with a word like "coincidence".



Deb.






I did years of soul-searching over this tragedy, and kept coming back to a dream I had years before she was born. It was a friend of mine as a teenager, who married badly, she had 2 daughters ( like my own daughter had), then died tragically and young in a car accident.....She and her husband had just broken up (like my own daughter's case)


In the "series" of dreams of this old friend; one was extremely strange and stayed with me forever. I chose in real life, not to go to the funeral parlor, a wake for her, but I told a mutual friend that I was almost due having my 1st child, so she said she'd be sure to go and have the "others" go too. The others comprised about 20 other friends or near that sum. Carol (the dead girl) mom told me about it when I eventually called her. The reason I called her is because Carol asked me to in a dream. Her mother spoke with a heavy German accent, but she did tell me how many friends Carol had from that wake appearance.


The very first time I dreamt of her, I DID in effect, enter the funeral parlor, walked past dozens of weeping family and friends, went to the casket, knelt to say a prayer, and looked at her face. Her face (eyelids) started to twitch and move, and then she awakened right there in the casket. I started yelling to the onlookers who were still deeply into their own grief over this loss.
I yelled, "She's not dead, she is alive and right here with us".....then I looked at her again, and her face started to change into that of a baby....end of dream.


I always believed somehow, that dream was telling me, she would reincarnate, and very possibly she did as my youngest daughter.



The Black Moon Lilith is mostly is not ALL subconscious energy isn't it?
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Tr. Lilith is conjuncting my Mars conjunct POF... It's the renewal of my life now, and I'm transforming from a person who was aggressive, full of hate to a new person full of love...
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Humanitarian said:
Selene isn't the closest point on the moon's orbit to the Earth, it is Priapus, opposite Osculating Lilith (True Lilith).
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Says who? "Priapus" isn't even of the Moon. He was a minor agricultural god portrayed with a permanent hard-on! Romans used him in erotic art. Some French occultists stuck him in there (possibly as a joke), along with Lilith, a strange Biblical character. ALL of the Greco-Roman Moon deities were female. "Luna" personified the Moon itself for the Romans & "Selene" for the Greeks, but Hecate and Artemis were the powerful goddesses associated with the Moon.

These are Lunar points, at either end of the centerline of the Moon's elliptical orbit around the Earth, when the Moon is at perigee (closest to the Earth) and apogee (farthest away).
 
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Humanitarian

Humanitarian

Well-known member
david starling said:
Says who? "Priapus" isn't even of the Moon. He was a minor agricultural god portrayed with a permanent hard-on! Romans used him in erotic art. Some French occultists stuck him in there along with Lilith, a strange Biblical character. ALL of the Greco-Roman Moon deities were female. "Luna" personified the Moon itself for the Romans & "Selene" for the Greeks, but Hecate and Artemis were the powerful goddesses associated with the Moon.

These are Lunar points, at either end of the centerline of the Moon's elliptical orbit around the Earth, when the Moon is at perigee (closest to the Earth) and apogee (farthest away).
Click to expand...
If the perigee and the apogee of the Moon aren't opposed to each other in the ecliptic, then we both agree with each other.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
The real meaning of BML, regardless of what it's called, is about strong, independent, sexually-liberated women. That's the apogee point as measured along the ecliptic. In a male's chart, it's about one's attitude and/or relationships with such women.

The perigee point isn't being used for anything important, so BML is really about the unoccupied focus of the Moon's orbit, on the apogee side. The Earth is located at the occupied focus on the perigee side. Like with all measured points which aren't the celestial longitudes of planets (including Pluto), the orb depends on how strong the influence is.

Btw, "osculating" means "kissing"! The correct astronomical word is "oscillating", meaning swinging back and forth. I notice many astrologers are using "osculating" due to ignorance of astronomy.
 
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