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  #51  
Unread 12-09-2014, 10:06 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Great idea, but ironically, we may only discuss this topic on the General Astrology forum

because the rules of the traditional forum prevent us from doing so by stating that:


'.......Traditional Astrology Forum is for discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renassiance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and exludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretetation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)....'


However General Astrology encompasses Vedic, Chinese, Sidereal, Tropical, Uranian, Traditional, Ancient, Modern and so on
so therefore it is an entirely appropriate discussion for this area of the forum
although I agree with you the topic seems an 'inflammatory one'
Hum, but in a way, wouldn't we be discussing what in OUR view is what astrological practices should be avoided? (according to traditional ways of course).

As in playing devil's advocate for our own learning purpose?

After reading stillone's post, I understand that there were some bad arguments between moderns and classics here on AW in the past.

It always amazes me how internet forums sometimes act like proper communities, even with specificly defining catastrophies that change the course of the community itself

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  #52  
Unread 12-09-2014, 10:22 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Done!!

I reached out to the owner of the site with your suggestions StillOne! He was out of the country recently, let's see what we can do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vista View Post
StillOne,

YES, I was thinking this VERY thing yesterday!! I am so sorry but I missed your post original post. I agree wholeheartedly with your logic.

I will will send a message to the owner of the forum and see what can be done about this.

Thank you for bringing it up again!

Vista
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  #53  
Unread 12-09-2014, 10:25 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vista View Post
Done!!

I reached out to the owner of the site with your suggestions StillOne! He was out of the country recently, let's see what we can do.
Maybe we can reconsider some of the bans as well? Many may have been as a result of discussion just like these. With new forums to help maintain the peace, maybe these banned astrologers will be able to now coexist as a result. May be worth a shot?
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  #54  
Unread 12-09-2014, 10:29 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

First of all, I feel obliged to say that I am practitioner of traditional approach and I am not here to defend modern astrology. I don't think that "outer" planets co-rule the signs. But also, I don't think that they are completely meaningless in astrological sense.

Some things said here are simply not true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moor View Post
-Pluto doesn't reflect light:

Uranus and and Neptune don't reflect light too- they are too far from any source of light, e.g. our star Sun.
Every object in the Universe reflects the light (except black hole maybe) and whether something has the property of light reflection or not, has nothing to do with the distance of the light source. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to have photos of those planets. That is what camera does: captures the REFLECTED LIGHT.



In this photo you can see light reflected from the planet Uranus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moor View Post
-You can't see Pluto with naked eye:

Uranus and Neptune are also visible only through telescopes.
Uranus can be seen with naked eye. Here is an instruction how to see it yourself:

http://www.space.com/22983-see-plane...night-sky.html

Of several schools of traditional astrological thought closest to my personal understanding is Stoic view: Planets do not cause the events, planets are objects (or even beings) which SIGNIFY things. According to this view astrology is a science of interpretation and is divinational, not part of the physical sciences.

This is in total contrast with Aristotelian-Ptolemaic view in which planets CAUSE things to happen, they are causal agents, therefore astrology is virtually branch of physics, and in some sense part of natural sciences.

Ironically enough, latest scientific developments continuously confirm holographic nature of our Universe in which every part contains the same pattern and reflects all other parts in itself. This is perfectly aligned with Stoic view of astrology. It is not the size of the planets, nor their gravitational field, nor property of light reflection, nor our ability or disability to see them with naked eye what makes astrology to "work" but their configuration in the skies which is mirror-like reflection of people, things and events (under assumption that the interpretation is correct). As above - so bellow.

I completely agree with KnS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
Another issue with the outer planets in general is that they lack much of the tools that the classical planets have. This isn't just referring to dignities (though that is a large part of it), but they also lack nature, sect, gender, years, winds, orbs, signatures, etc. This may all seem superfluous or unnecessary, but its significance really cannot be overstated. Without these associations, the outer planets are essentially blank orbs without instruction or meaning.
But it is important to remember that those planets still SIGNIFY things (and believe me, my most accurate predictions in sport astrology are based on them) - because everything is the reflection of everything. What exactly they signify we cannot be certain at this moment. Astrologers had observed traditional planets for thousands of years before they managed to establish their significations. So let us, in the same manner, observe "outer" planets at least for some time (I am talking hundreds of years) before we dismiss them or accept them.

Last edited by Cap; 12-09-2014 at 10:35 PM.
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  #55  
Unread 12-09-2014, 10:31 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post

Hum, but in a way, wouldn't we be discussing what in OUR view is what astrological practices should be avoided?
(according to traditional ways of course).

As in playing devil's advocate for our own learning purpose?

Definitely agree that we need to be able to have such a discussion for learning purposes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post

After reading stillone's post, I understand that there were some bad arguments
between moderns and classics here on AW in the past.

It always amazes me how internet forums sometimes act like proper communities,
even with specificly defining catastrophies that change the course of the community itself

Keep in mind Dirius that the Traditional forum is fairly 'new'
and was created in response to a request from Rebel Uranian
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=43946
almost exactly three years ago to the day as it happens

Our Traditional sub-forum was created on Christmas Day 2011 when wilsontc said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

All,

You make good arguments. I agree and have created a Traditional Astrology subforum in the "Other Astrology" forum.

This subforum is only for Traditional Astrology discussions
(e.g., it is not for comparing Traditional Astrology to Modern Astrology, Modern Astrology interpretations, etc.).
If you see something in the Traditional Astrology subforum that is NOT Traditional Astrology,
please report it to the Moderator Team.

Merry Christmas!

Tim

and almost immediately there were issues
to which wilsontc responded as follows:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post

a50,
You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrologer50
I'm happy they have their own sub forum and as there has/is strong views on both sides of the fence.
Provided of course the 'keep off' modern threads, it 'has' to go both ways!!!



If someone indicates they have a "modern only" thread,
then only modern comments are allowed on the thread and no "traditionalists" need apply.

However, if it is a general thread,
both traditional and modern astrological approaches are welcome on that thread.

To date, while I have seen several "traditional only" threads,
I have seen very few "modern only" threads.

That is partly because there is such an overlap between "modern" and "traditional" methods
and many "modern astrologers" use some "traditional" techniques
as well as modern in their interpretations
(e.g., Mars ruling both Aries and Scorpio).

About the new forum,

Tim
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  #56  
Unread 12-09-2014, 10:39 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Thanks for the quotes and links

But after reading a few posts, perhaps there is no way to avoid it.

reading http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=43946 , seems like a nice example of AW's history lol, thnx for the link!

Its funny because in that post it would seem as if the moderns were the ones attacking and crucifying the traditionalists....what changed :P ?
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Last edited by Dirius; 12-09-2014 at 10:41 PM.
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  #57  
Unread 12-09-2014, 10:50 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

I miss Astrologer50, I always felt badly about what happened although she was banned before I was an moderator. She was on astro.com for ahwile but I haven't seen her over there either lately.

I think what Wilson commented illustrates we may need an "Eclectic" subforum as well in which astrologers can combine different methods and make them their own. I did present this idea(StillOne's) to the owner of AW as well.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Definitely agree that we need to be able to have such a discussion for learning purposes

Keep in mind Dirius that the Traditional forum is fairly 'new'
and was created in response to a request from Rebel Uranian
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=43946
almost exactly three years ago to the day as it happens

Our Traditional sub-forum was created on Christmas Day 2011 when wilsontc said:

and almost immediately there were issues
to which wilsontc responded as follows:
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  #58  
Unread 12-09-2014, 10:52 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post

Thanks for the quotes and links

But after reading a few posts, perhaps there is no way to avoid it.

reading
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=43946 , seems like a nice example of AW's history lol, thnx for the link!

Its funny because in that post it would seem as if the moderns
were the ones attacking and crucifying the traditionalists....what changed :P ?
Apparently members of either approach
appear to be under the impression that the other 'is attacking'
so probably nothing has changed in that respect Dirius

What has changed though, is that Tradtiionalists have a subforum
and that is much appreciated
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  #59  
Unread 12-09-2014, 10:57 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vista View Post

I miss Astrologer50, I always felt badly about what happened although she was banned before I was an moderator.
She was on astro.com for ahwile but I haven't seen her over there either lately.

I think what Wilson commented illustrates we may need an "Eclectic" subforum as well
in which astrologers can combine different methods and make them their own.
I did present this idea(StillOne's) to the owner of AW
as well.
"Eclectic" subforum is a great idea, dr. farr would have loved it
sadly though he is unwell and has not posted now for many months
While on the subject, we also need a Forensic astrology sub-forum
so we can differentiate between for example Horary Missing Persons questions
and 'possible abduction' - a thread on a possible 'abduction' was posted only today
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  #60  
Unread 12-09-2014, 11:20 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vista View Post
I miss Astrologer50, I always felt badly about what happened although she was banned before I was an moderator.
There are many members, who just do service of attacking. There are many members, who try to contribute. It is moderators responsibility to balance. The moderator then in balancing-act banned.

It is not uncommon for people interested in Astrology to go insane. Usually they are ruled by Uranus (or at least Uranus in dominant in chart). Most of them are genus in their own way. And so, some of them start crossing boundaries repeatedly.

I think, WORST HAPPENS, WHEN AN ASTROLOGER THINKING HIMSELF/HERSELF ONE OF THE GREATEST ASTROLOGERS GETS LIFE SHOCK such as getting BANNED.

MODERATORS should be able to sense some people DISAPPEAR from forum AFTER TOO MANY ATTACKS. EVERY ONE DOES NOT HAVE THICK SKIN. When contributing members start disappearing due to attacks, it is time for MODERATORS to wake up.
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  #61  
Unread 12-10-2014, 02:41 AM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Likewise.....
and
I now post the following fact


dwarf planet pluto is entirely absent from the following table of ESSENTIAL DIGNITIES OF THE PLANETS
which has been in use for at least TWO THOUSAND YEARS
I know you didn't actually start this thread but just your tone in your posts is just very smug.

There are some helpful posts but honestly, the ones that try to bash modern astrology and the outer planets will not change the modern astrologer's views, in my opinion. These kinds of posts just start bickering.

It seems that you, JA, enjoy it. Why not just go along with your Traditionalist view (which I see nothing wrong with, except when it's forced on people, like all of this now) to the Traditional Astrology sub forum…where your views will be shared.

And with the very annoying large blue and bold font, it is just a bit too much in everyone's face. And your very smug smiley faces after almost every statement as if everything you say is 100% correct and we are all dummies.

I am sure you are very knowledgeable about traditional astrology. Like I said above, a lot of your posts are helpful, even with the smileys and boldness. Then there are the ones where you start talking about the traditional way when CLEARLY the OP was asking a question pertaining to a modern view.

That's why I don't post often. I tried one time about Pluto and the Sun. You derailed it by talking about how big the sun is and how big Pluto is, then added graphics bigger than my screen…with many replies that had nothing to do with my original statement…but then ended up trying to make me look foolish for even questioning the effect of Pluto on the Sun. Very very annoying. So we have to beware of posting about the outer planets…it's just a shame.

And I'm sure you'll give a reply that sounds all smart and boldy and 'I'm so correct' but that's ok. It's expected.
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  #62  
Unread 12-10-2014, 10:47 AM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus View Post

I know you didn't actually start this thread
but just your tone in your posts is just very smug.

Consider that you may be inferring a tone that is not intended

and also
it seems unreasonable to expect the OP
to NOT comment on their own thread
particularly since
as I already explained to Darius


Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post

Hey steady on there - this thread was started by modern astrologer and moderator wilsontc
who removed my comments from another thread
since he deemed they belonged on their own thread
with another title
and in fact the title of this thread is specifically chosen by wilsontc
so clearly then this thread was NOT created deliberately as a 'fire starter'
this thread is clearly intended by wilsontc as a place
where BOTH modern as well as traditionalist views are EXPECTED

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus View Post

There are some helpful posts but honestly, the ones that try to bash modern astrology and the outer planets
will not change the modern astrologer's views, in my opinion. These kinds of posts just start bickering.
Obviously, when people have opposing views
then there is disagreement
but that is not necessarily 'bickering'

Unless you are of the opinion that holding a traditionalist view
is automatically a form of 'bickering'


clearly, the thread title which was not chosen by me
ASKS a question
which clearly invites alternative answers if there are any

if all posters agreed then there would be no opposing views

But there is nothing wrong with holding an opposing view to another member
and
nothing wrong with the discussion of opposing views

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus View Post

It seems that you, JA, enjoy it. Why not just go along with your Traditionalist view
(which I see nothing wrong with, except when it's forced on people, like all of this now)
to the Traditional Astrology sub forum…where your views will be shared.

Are you suggesting that by posting the thread on the General Astrology Board
the starter of this thread, moderator wilsontc is somehow 'forcing it on people'?

I have already stated clearly that I did not commence this thread
and
since wilsontc has commenced this thread in General Astrology
then as the OP it is not unusual that I would post comments on my own thread


the fact is that although my comments are not necessarily in agreement with all comments
that is not in breach of forum rules

wilsontc is a moderator
and states clearly that traditional views are NOT required to be ISOLATED to the traditional forum only

and
that traditionalist views as well as modernist views ARE allowed on General Astrology threads
and this thread is on the General Astrology subforum
where it was specifically commenced by moderator wilsontc himself
which indicates that wilsontc is of the opinion
that this is a question that requires discussion
and clearly wilsontc is inviting answers and discussion on this topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus View Post

And with the very annoying large blue and bold font, it is just a bit too much in everyone's face.
And your very smug smiley faces after almost every statement
as if everything you say is 100% correct and we are all dummies.


Blue font is one of the available options that any member may use

As for your criticism of smiley faces
many members use smiley faces
yet are not accused of smugness


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus View Post

I am sure you are very knowledgeable about traditional astrology.
Like I said above, a lot of your posts are helpful, even with the smileys and boldness.
Then there are the ones where you start talking about the traditional way when
CLEARLY the OP was asking a question pertaining to a modern view
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus View Post
as wilsontc has already explained
unless an OP specifically states that a traditionalist view is not to be mentioned on their thread
then
if the thread is posted in General Astrology area of the forum
traditionalist view is welcome
i.e.
wilsontc has stated clearly
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=43946
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
a50,

You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrologer50
I'm happy they have their own sub forum
and as there has/is strong views on both sides of the fence.

Provided of course the 'keep off' modern threads, it 'has' to go both ways!!!


If someone indicates they have a "modern only" thread,
then only modern comments are allowed on the thread and no "traditionalists" need apply.

However, if it is a general thread,
both traditional and modern astrological approaches are welcome on that thread.

To date, while I have seen several "traditional only" threads,
I have seen very few "modern only" threads.

That is partly because there is such an overlap between "modern" and "traditional" methods
and
many "modern astrologers" use some "traditional" techniques as well as modern in their interpretations
(e.g., Mars ruling both Aries and Scorpio).

About the new forum,
Tim
clearly moderator wilsontc has told members that
Traditionalist views are welcome on our forum
and
are NOT confined to the Traditional sub-forum
in other words
our forum is neither strictly modern nor strictly traditional
and so
modern as well as traditional views are the norm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus View Post
That's why I don't post often.
I tried one time about Pluto and the Sun. You derailed it by talking about how big the sun is and how big Pluto is,
then added graphics bigger than my screen…with many replies that had nothing to do with my original statement…
but then ended up trying to make me look foolish for even questioning the effect of Pluto on the Sun.
Very very annoying. So we have to beware of posting about the outer planets…
it's just a shame.

And I'm sure you'll give a reply that sounds all smart and boldy and 'I'm so correct'
but that's ok. It's expected.

If you do not want any traditionalist views posted on any thread you commence
then moderator wilsontc has said to just say so on the OP

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  #63  
Unread 12-10-2014, 12:45 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
[FONT=Georgia][SIZE=3][COLOR=Blue][B]
If you do not want any traditionalist views posted on any thread you commence
then moderator wilsontc has said to just say so on the OP

I think that's the problem. New members may not be aware that there's a difference between schools of astrology, or one may not know to add that particular condition to the post, etc.

I think it would be easier to separate the schools with the RMC forum being a general forum where any school can comment but not attack any other. Simply just state that you're employing a traditionalist, modern, or whatever type of delineation at the beginning of the post and the thread starter can inquire further if they wish in that particular subforum. Should be simple enough and encourage growth of the forum and not the other way around, IMO.
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  #64  
Unread 12-10-2014, 01:02 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Quote:
I think it would be easier to separate the schools with the RMC forum being a general forum where any school can comment but not attack any other. Simply just state that you're employing a traditionalist, modern, or whatever type of delineation at the beginning of the post and the thread starter can inquire further if they wish in that particular subforum. Should be simple enough and encourage growth of the forum and not the other way around, IMO.
How is this different from the way it is now?

Forgive my ignorance on this matter, I usually just stay within my own little area of the forum, but I find it hard to believe that traditional astrologers are running around sabotaging modern threads. I mean, I can literally count the number of active classical astrologers the forum has at any given time on one hand. Certainly you aren't suggesting that anytime a classical astrologer responds to a thread its an active, unwelcomed derailment?
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  #65  
Unread 12-10-2014, 01:43 PM
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Re: I wonder- is it a highly plutonian chart?

JA, Ho hum. It's very typical of you to dissect each sentence someone else posts if it doesn't agree with your view. It has been very entertaining to see so many of your posts taking what someone has said and then doing the sentence by sentence analysis, in desperation to prove that you think YOU ARE ALWAYS RIGHT. You usually start with an opening big, bolded, blue paragraph. Then the comical dissection ensues:

'You said: [quote from another member]

And I replied: [quote from JA]

And then you said this: [quote]

And I then replied to your original question: [quote with the smug smileys to indicate that your point has supposedly been proven]


And often your dissection goes on to make the longest forum posts I've ever seen. You just go on and on trying to disprove every sentence that someone else posts. My eyes just glaze over it in other posts. This time, since your post is in response to mine, I tried to get through it. Basically what I got is that you totally didn't get what I was trying to say, and you're also trying to project everything onto Wilsontc when he has absolutely nothing to do with the point of my post.

It's all about YOU, JA, and your smug attitude, and NOTHING ABOUT THE MODERATOR. My post was talking about ALL of your posts, not just this one. I know very well that you didn't start this one. You missed my point. My point was that NO MATTER WHAT FORUM OR THREAD YOU POST IN, many of your posts are very 'in your face' and SMUG about the traditionalist astrology.

You are trying to turn my comments around by saying stuff like, "Are you suggesting…that moderator wilsontc is somehow 'forcing it on people'?" That is major projection. See, you are never at fault, right, JA? You won't admit that you totally force your traditionalist views on most threads and now are trying to shift my point onto wilsontc. Nowhere in my post did I say that I was suggesting that wilsontc was doing anything. My post was all about you. So, nice try at shifting the blame and shifting the meaning of my post.

This Pluto thread was apparently part of another one. I was saying that no matter if you start a thread or if you reply to one already started, your tone and attitude comes across as self-righteous and smug. Most of the time. You derail many threads with ridiculous nit-picking of other's comments who don't agree with yours, just to prove your amazing knowledge.

Frankly, I believe you are very knowledgeable and a good astrologer. But the way you post makes your true and real knowledge of astrology less obvious and your smugness MORE obvious. And for me, at least, that makes me less likely to recognize and/or appreciate where you state some great insights. It's a shame.

And you know what I'm talking about with the smileys…yes, lots of people use them, yes. But there is a BIG difference between them and you. There is not ONE member, in my opinion, on this forum who gives off the SMUG vibe with smileys the way you do. Deny it all you want. One just has to read any one of your posts to see what I'm talking about.

As for the Big Blue Bold font. I am full aware that blue and the rest of the rainbow spectrum of colors is available to anyone who wishes to use them. Thank you for reminding me of that, though. But notice that most members don't use colors, don't use blue big bold fonts. Most don't have a need to force their opinions and call all attention to their posts. C'mon, please spare us the "hey, blue is available, what's wrong with it" speech. It's obvious why you use it - to get your 100% correct viewpoint across, to make sure evvvvvvvveryone sees YOUR post the most.

It is very off-putting, also, when, during your dissection of someone else's reply, you quote them and then make their font 20 times bigger, then you bold their reply, THEN you bold and make bigger YOUR reply, like in post 6, your response to Moor. It doesn't come out right when I try to quote it. But it's just excessively big and bold. Tiresome.

I guess I need to spell out my point more clearly. Why is there a need to be forceful, smug and sometimes downright rude with your traditional astrology views in threads? Why can't you just reply in answer to someone's question normally? Why do you even have to reply to threads asking about the outer planets???? If you are so against modern astrology in that respect, then stick to the traditional astrology forum. That's what I meant, really. I've no problem at all if you or anyone who's a traditional astrologer replies to threads that actually HELP and not turn negative by inferring that the poster is wrong by, say, wondering about Pluto, or if someone asks about Scorpio placements in relation to Pluto. They don't want to hear "MARS rules Scorpio, Pluto doesn't, it's a dwarf, blah blah.." That attitude is argumentative.. JUST DON'T REPLY to posts asking about outer planets!

I'll be honest, I know we won't see any change in the way you post, though, because you [are in denial] won't want to be caught being wrong.
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Unread 12-10-2014, 02:08 PM
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Re: I wonder- is it a highly plutonian chart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus View Post

JA, Ho hum. It's very typical of you to dissect each sentence someone else posts if it doesn't agree with your view. It has been very entertaining to see so many of your posts taking what someone has said and then doing the sentence by sentence analysis, in desperation to prove that you think YOU ARE ALWAYS RIGHT. You usually start with an opening big, bolded, blue paragraph. Then the comical dissection ensues:

'You said: [quote from another member]

And I replied: [quote from JA]

And then you said this:
Quote:

And I then replied to your original question: [quote with the smug smileys to indicate that your point has supposedly been proven]


And often your dissection goes on to make the longest forum posts I've ever seen. You just go on and on trying to disprove every sentence that someone else posts. My eyes just glaze over it in other posts. This time, since your post is in response to mine, I tried to get through it. Basically what I got is that you totally didn't get what I was trying to say, and you're also trying to project everything onto Wilsontc when he has absolutely nothing to do with the point of my post.

It's all about YOU, JA, and your smug attitude, and NOTHING ABOUT THE MODERATOR. My post was talking about ALL of your posts, not just this one. I know very well that you didn't start this one. You missed my point. My point was that NO MATTER WHAT FORUM OR THREAD YOU POST IN, many of your posts are very 'in your face' and SMUG about the traditionalist astrology.

You are trying to turn my comments around by saying stuff like, "Are you suggesting…that moderator wilsontc is somehow 'forcing it on people'?" That is major projection. See, you are never at fault, right, JA? You won't admit that you totally force your traditionalist views on most threads and now are trying to shift my point onto wilsontc. Nowhere in my post did I say that I was suggesting that wilsontc was doing anything. My post was all about you. So, nice try at shifting the blame and shifting the meaning of my post.

This Pluto thread was apparently part of another one. I was saying that no matter if you start a thread or if you reply to one already started, your tone and attitude comes across as self-righteous and smug. Most of the time. You derail many threads with ridiculous nit-picking of other's comments who don't agree with yours, just to prove your amazing knowledge.

Frankly, I believe you are very knowledgeable and a good astrologer. But the way you post makes your true and real knowledge of astrology less obvious and your smugness MORE obvious. And for me, at least, that makes me less likely to recognize and/or appreciate where you state some great insights. It's a shame.

And you know what I'm talking about with the smileys…yes, lots of people use them, yes. But there is a BIG difference between them and you. There is not ONE member, in my opinion, on this forum who gives off the SMUG vibe with smileys the way you do. Deny it all you want. One just has to read any one of your posts to see what I'm talking about.

As for the Big Blue Bold font. I am full aware that blue and the rest of the rainbow spectrum of colors is available to anyone who wishes to use them. Thank you for reminding me of that, though. But notice that most members don't use colors, don't use blue big bold fonts. Most don't have a need to force their opinions and call all attention to their posts. C'mon, please spare us the "hey, blue is available, what's wrong with it" speech. It's obvious why you use it - to get your 100% correct viewpoint across, to make sure evvvvvvvveryone sees YOUR post the most.

It is very off-putting, also, when, during your dissection of someone else's reply, you quote them and then make their font 20 times bigger, then you bold their reply, THEN you bold and make bigger YOUR reply, like in post 6, your response to Moor. It doesn't come out right when I try to quote it. But it's just excessively big and bold. Tiresome.

I guess I need to spell out my point more clearly. Why is there a need to be forceful, smug and sometimes downright rude with your traditional astrology views in threads?

Why can't you just reply in answer to someone's question normally?

Why do you even have to reply to threads asking about the outer planets????

If you are so against modern astrology in that respect,
then stick to the traditional astrology forum.

That's what I meant, really.

I've no problem at all if you or anyone who's a traditional astrologer replies to threads that actually HELP and not turn negative by inferring that the poster is wrong by, say, wondering about Pluto, or if someone asks about Scorpio placements in relation to Pluto. They don't want to hear "MARS rules Scorpio, Pluto doesn't, it's a dwarf, blah blah.." That attitude is argumentative.. JUST DON'T REPLY to posts asking about outer planets!

I'll be honest, I know we won't see any change in the way you post, though,
because you [are in denial] won't want to be caught being wrong.

A so-called 'normal response'
which you are demanding
is likely to elude definition

Anyone may respond to any thread on any subject including the outers
UNLESS
the OP states categorically and clearly that they do not want any traditional comment
and want specifically solely modernist responses
and that's entirely reasonable for the category of GENERAL ASTROLOGY

MARS and rulership of Aries and Scorpio
this specific point has been clearly addressed by moderator wilsontc
when he posted the following guidelines for members


Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
a50,

You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrologer50
I'm happy they have their own sub forum and as there has/is strong views on both sides of the fence. Provided of course the 'keep off' modern threads, it 'has' to go both ways!!!


If someone indicates they have a "modern only" thread, then only modern comments are allowed on the thread and no "traditionalists" need apply. However, if it is a general thread, both traditional and modern astrological approaches are welcome on that thread. To date, while I have seen several "traditional only" threads, I have seen very few "modern only" threads.

That is partly because there is such an overlap between "modern" and "traditional" methods
and many "modern astrologers" use some "traditional" techniques as well as modern in their interpretations

(e.g., Mars ruling both Aries and Scorpio).


About the new forum,
Tim

Obviously, the bold is useful in order to highlight salient concerns

As for my 'amazing knowledge'
I thank you for the compliment
however I am no traditional expert
others on this thread are far more knowledgeable than I
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  #67  
Unread 12-10-2014, 02:17 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StillOne View Post

I think that's the problem.

New members may not be aware
that there's a difference between schools of astrology,
or
one may not know to add that particular condition to the post, etc.

Then perhaps the way to clarify this factor for new members
is
by officially adding clear instructions to FORUM RULES

so then new members would be aware
that there is this difference between schools of astrology

and that therefore

if the new member does not wish to have any particular school of astrology addressed in the response to their post

then the new member needs
as wilsontc has already indicated
to add that particular condition to their post

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Unread 12-10-2014, 02:28 PM
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Get back on subject

All,

Please get back on subject. This thread was started because JA posted comments about Pluto not being a planet on a thread that was asking for an astrological interpretation. Since JA's postings had nothing to do with interpreting the OP's chart, I moved them to a new thread. Now this thread seems to be fragmenting: if you have a suggestion for improving the Forum, put it in "Help with the Forum and Suggestions". If you have a personal development comment to make, PM the person directly and don't post in the Forum itself. If you want to debate whether or not Pluto should be used in astrological interpretation...you're in the right place.

Back on subject,

Tim
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  #69  
Unread 12-10-2014, 06:41 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Just as a question, for example, regarding pluto's influence and rulership of Scorpio.

Who was the original author (or authors) commenting or writing regarding this? Because I sort of know that mid 20th century the outer planets began to be employed in mainstream astrology, but I've never found the actual source of this...

Just out of curiosity, for the sake of discussion. Because its like a few books jump from "mars rules scorpio", to "pluto rules scorpio". And I've always wondered the original author, or were that philosophy had its origins.
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Unread 12-10-2014, 07:17 PM
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Re: Get back on subject

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
All,

Please get back on subject.

Tim
I do not know about what would here should be a debate?
To discuss something needs to know the subject matter.

If someone did not study Pluto and its movement through the chart about what we can talk?

Did the debate placing images about the size of the planet? It is at the level of kindergarten ...

a person who does not have an open mind for of diversity and acceptance of diversity, for such a person has no place in astrology.

because is the first thing you realize in astrology...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap View Post

Of several schools of traditional astrological thought closest to my personal understanding is Stoic view: Planets do not cause the events, planets are objects (or even beings) which SIGNIFY things. According to this view astrology is a science of interpretation and is divinational, not part of the physical sciences.

This is in total contrast with Aristotelian-Ptolemaic view in which planets CAUSE things to happen, they are causal agents, therefore astrology is virtually branch of physics, and in some sense part of natural sciences.

Ironically enough, latest scientific developments continuously confirm holographic nature of our Universe in which every part contains the same pattern and reflects all other parts in itself. This is perfectly aligned with Stoic view of astrology. It is not the size of the planets, nor their gravitational field, nor property of light reflection, nor our ability or disability to see them with naked eye what makes astrology to "work" but their configuration in the skies which is mirror-like reflection of people, things and events (under assumption that the interpretation is correct). As above - so bellow.
that's it ... I totally agree...



Cactus, I agree with most of what you said ... If someone like Jupiterasc twice enumerates the astronomical data and images, turning to me even though I previously gave the answer, then I wonder if this person is normal or is not (this is a topic http: //www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=662&page=24)

So someone has been trying with astronomical data show that Pluto is not a planet? Is not it easier to assess the impact of the pluton in someone's chart. No, is not ... it's easier to hang some pictures and links of other people ... because for research needs to do something ...

But astronomy is not astrology ... since when size plays a role? what is then the moon in relation to the pluton? maybe even a moon has nothing to do? whether this level of astrological debate?

Sorry for my english
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Unread 12-10-2014, 07:30 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post

Just as a question, for example, regarding pluto's influence and rulership of Scorpio.

Who was the original author (or authors) commenting or writing regarding this? Because I sort of know that mid 20th century the outer planets began to be employed in mainstream astrology, but I've never found the actual source of this...

Just out of curiosity, for the sake of discussion. Because its like a few books jump from "mars rules scorpio", to "pluto rules scorpio". And I've always wondered the original author, or were that philosophy had its origins
Paul_ before he requested that his account be closed due to personal issues with the forum that he felt were not being addressed
did post the following comment which is of interest in the context of our current discussion
Paul_ is currently moderator to skyscript Horary forum
and considered reasonably knowledgable in these matters
however
he is one of the many who unfortunately felt unable to continue as members
and sadly is not able to comment on our thread except with this comment from a previous thread
which in fact provides Dirius with an answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_ View Post

Just as an historical interlude that some people may find interesting,
it's note worthy that modern rulerships were assigned not because of some arduous research and investigation
- as you often hear from many modern astrologers,
but instead by astrologers of the time, cogniscant of the tradition of rulership,
basically went ahead and followed Ptolemy's logic, by assigning the next planet out with the next sign out.

So flowing from the Sun is the rulership scheme which normally reflects back to the Moon,
but breaking this they just carried on projecting out from the sun.

So the next out from the Sun is Mercury, then Venus, then Mars, then Jupiter and then Saturn,
and then when Uranus was discovered we see astrologers explicitly invent the rulership to Aquarius
because Aquarius is the next sign out after Capricorn,
then when Neptune comes along it's assigned the next one out which is Pisces.

This is explicitly stated in the very earliest sources we have for modern rulership.

So the outer planetary rulerships came about by trying to stay true to the tradition at large,
and absolutely not by channelling
or study of numerous charts
.


Then Pluto was discovered
and by this stage in the history our understanding of astrology,
already getting watered down by the time of Uranus' discovery,
find itself in a time where astrology is no longer in the hands of the educated as it once was,
but in the hands of the masses,
during a time when it was already simplified and watered down
and projected through a pseudo-religious lens of the Theosophical movement.


Pluto is discovered and the pattern continues.
It is assigned to Aries and there is a conference in Germany to discuss the matter more fully.
UNANIMOUS agreement dictates that Pluto rules Aries,
and
the counter idea, that some were positing at the time, that it should rule Scorpio are squashed
.


Until someone beats them to print,
and writes up the attributions of Pluto and that it rules Scorpio.
The author beat them to print and published a successful book and the rest is history.
It stuck, and from that day forth Pluto magically started ruling Scorpio.


I point this out because in the context of rulership even the modern rulership scheme bows to the traditional logic as much as it can.
It does not reinvent anything, instead it recognises the superiority of the traditional schema
and tries to accommodate itself into it as much as it can.


The only exception is that the general lack of understanding of the broader tradition by the time of Pluto amongst the basic astrologer,
thanks to a deliberate watering down of astrological technique coupled with the unlucky timing of Pluto coming out when the astrological world was still struggling to emerge from the mini-dark period it underwent
meant that one of the outers went to another sign.

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  #72  
Unread 12-10-2014, 07:37 PM
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Re: Get back on subject

Honestly, I think approaching the subject as if it is a debate is really the wrong attitude to have. A debate it most certainly is not, it is better to think of it as a discussion of ideas and an exposition of certain philosophical differences.

That being said, I think the point about Pluto's astronomical information is being missed, though it's possible I'm only interpreting it differently. It seems to me that we only have this big hubbub with Pluto because of its tenuous astronomical state. The only reason Pluto entered the astrological discourse is because of its branding as a planet. We had similar flare ups with the first four asteroids until they started discovering so many more it was clear they were not planets. After that the astrological information about them began to taper off to where now they are basically a niche subject.

They say history repeats itself.

I'm not saying that a planet's size or any other physical characteristic is important in astrology, just that within a historical context this Pluto planet, not-planet, dwarf planet mess does highlight our knee-jerk response to things people outside of our profession (using that term lightly) do or say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius
Who was the original author (or authors) commenting or writing regarding this?
I may have some information on this, but I'm away from my stuff at the moment. Will get back to this sometime later.

In response to JA's post quoting Paul (posting concurrently with myself I guess). I disagree somewhat with his characterization of the matter. Reading what he said about the German conference and the book being published beforehand did seem very familiar and I am pretty certain that that is what happened (will look into my info still). However, the information regarding Uranus is not being characterized fairly. If any of the modern planets had some time to be investigated it was Uranus. Kim Farnell did a really great job tracking the adaptation of Uranus for astrology in the early modern period, and you can read her full piece titled When and Why Did Uranus Become Associated with Aquarius online.

To make my point more clearly for those who don't necessarily have the time to read through that.

Quote:
If we assume that the first Raphael attributed rulership of Uranus to Aquarius, then it suggests that later astrologers would share this view. Certainly this does not appear to be the case in the late nineteenth century. AJ Pearce's (Zadkiel) Text Book of Astrology was published in 1879. In this he states, rather petulantly:


Some modern authors have assigned Aquarius to Uranus, thus either robbing Saturn of his 'day house' or forcing upon him a partner. However until experience teaches us in what signs Uranus and Neptune are most powerful, I must decline to endorse so hasty an attempt to provide for one of the 'houseless wanderers'.
Quote:
Sepharial, in his Manual of Astrology 1898, didn't believe that Uranus ruled Aquarius:


The dominion of Uranus is indefinite, for he has no house of his own, though he is most successfully placed in the airy triplicity….
What Paul is saying about the fanning out of the planets from the astronomical position of the Sun is included as something Rob Hand states in an interview, but does not appear to be quoted from any working astrologer who was writing at the time.

The point of all of that is to show something of a more natural progression of the matter. First Uranus's rulership is denied and doubted, then we start seeing writings suggesting his affinity for air signs, which ultimately leads to the assignment of Aquarius.

Anyway, that article has a lot of good information and some back and forth between the astrologers writing around the time. Won't give any info on Pluto though.
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  #73  
Unread 12-10-2014, 08:14 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Thank you for the info guys. That was sort of my aim, as how does pluto have the traits it supposedly according to modern astrology.

Why Scorpio? Why ruler of "sex" and agression? which have traditionally been held as characteristics of mars. I supposed that at some point someone would have penned this ideas, and describe the reasons, yet I seem to have been unable to find a proper source.
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Unread 12-10-2014, 09:10 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

I had a bit of time to look into some stuff, I wasn't able to verify Paul's story (but it seems like it's something Robert Hand is saying, and I do know that he has worked with individuals who studied astrological transmission in Germany in the early modern period, so I'd accept what he says as probably true). You can read the interview here.

Instead I found something interesting. Apparently at the time there were two Plutos. One a hypothetical planet and the other is the body we are discussing now. Two different astrologers assigned this hypothetical Pluto two different rulerships (one Cancer, the other Scorpio), so this likely had an effect on what the real Pluto would end up doing. This hypothetical Pluto was also characterized as a "negative side of Mars" and it looks like these writings were a big influence on what the real Pluto would signify some time down the line.

This all comes from a paper Sue Ward did on the origins of the outer planets. You can purchase a copy from her site. I think it was only like $8, a good read. 82 pages. 10/10 would recommend for anyone interested in astrology in the early modern period.

Quote:
Why Scorpio? Why ruler of "sex" and agression? which have traditionally been held as characteristics of mars.
The attribution of sex with Mars is itself a more contemporary assignment. Classically sex belongs to Venus and Mars is basically the opposite of sex. Recall their basic natures; Venus's to reconcile and unify, Mars's to sever and separate.
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  #75  
Unread 12-24-2014, 03:30 AM
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Re: I wonder- is it a highly plutonian chart?

[QUOTE=JUPITERASC;589651]dwarf planet pluto was discovered a mere 84 years ago
on 18 February 1930
and
there is no consensus amongst modern astrolgogers as to its validity


By the way, I didn't originate this reply from predetermined direct motive, I only happened to stumble upon it this afternoon while updating a post from a couple of months ago a member of my family that is about to give birth...possibly on Christmas day, some three weeks ahead of schedule.

But, anyways, getting back to this thread. {and really, J.Asc., "astrol - gogers"? That's okay I spelled half your name wrong awhile back, "Jupipiter", only I think my gaff was cuter.}
As to your reply there Jupiter Asc., truth be known there's no consensus among present day astrologers as to anything, for that matter.

As the word "consensus" is defined as: "unity, unanimity, solidarity, formal concord" There isn't a single thing that all astrologers are in unity about.
Truth is most "Traditional Astrologers", as they identify and call themselves, of whom I know you to be one, don't recognize any of the trans- Saturnian planets as having any astrological validity.


Pluto is not only a planet, as are also Uranus and Neptune, but it is a most profoundly influential Planet and trumps the affects of all the other known planets. I say "known", because, as there are more Planets yet to be re-discovered beyond Pluto's orbit. And I say, re-discovered, because they were known to mankind until about 12,500 B.C. {or B.C.E., for those of you that prefer}. According to the Vedas and confirmed and elaborated on by the gifted, 20th century American clairvoyant, Edgar Cayce, Humankind first appeared on this earth, by an act of creation by the way, around 237,000 years ago and at peak mental faculties and all attendant capabilities. We as a species, are subject to the cycles of the Great Ages", which in the Vedas are identified as the "Yugas" and we go through, what are presently approximated at, somewhat over, 26,000 year cycles of which of that for about 9,000 years we are in that "fully capable" mode of being. There's also a 9,000 year cycle just the opposite. The former cycle is known as the Satya Yuga and the latter is known as the Kali Yuga, I let everyone have two guess as to which we are in presently. There's also a 4500 year interim period at the interim. on both ends that is called the Dwapar Yuga that are ascending and descending eras. The indications are that the last descending Dwapar Yuga began around 12,500 B.C. {or B.C.E. for that that prefer} which also is when the Great Pyramid and the Sphinx were built. If that assumption is correct, then we are presently in the first quarter of the ascending Yuga and the times do fit the description in the Vedas as to how technologically advanced we should be, in fact we are about 200 to 250 years ahead of were we should presently be. We apparently obtained a level of technology that we aren't spiritually mature enough as yet to handle responsibly.

But I've digressed here enough, although some background understanding will serve most well, that read all this, so no apology should be necessary here.
Not everyone is affected by all the planets, as Edgar Cayce pointed out in a few of the readings he gave to people that ask him questions concerning astrology or of which astrology was pertinent to, and truth is, astrology is pertinent to everything. From a study of somewhere around 150 case histories concerning people that Cayce gave lengthy astrological based answers to question arising from other subjects, or were direct answers to questions concerning astrology, and for whom natal charts, or essential birth data, was known and correct the investigators determined that most people have only three to six Planets of influence to them....with the greater majority of those in the in the three to five Planet range. The Luminaries are without question [which, while Edgar never said that, I say that He didn't need to, how could they not be for without them life couldn't exist on Earth.]
Cayce did say also "...and all angles to the Ascendant" which means all Astrological Parts that utilize the Asc. as the "Personal Point" and that means every one of those Parts regardless of whether or not an influential Planet is utilized in a formula because the are only activation points and as such influence you in those areas and concerns of your life of that precept, which is given by the title for the Part, if said title is accurate, of which some are not or are too vague, but for the most part are correct and that includes Astrological Parts that utilize the trans-Saturnian planets as well.
I have numerous threads and post here, online, posted throughout aw-forum in which I demonstrate, provide examples and cite others that there are known examples already in existence.
And the Astrological Parts that utilize the trans-Saturnian Planets are included on that list and I also have the same evidence for those as well.
Such as the Part of Libido aka Part of Physical Energy that utilizes Pluto in the derivative formula for the Part and evidence {pertaining to president Clinton during the Lewinsky affair} and personal experience to demonstrate and prove said Part was affected by the conjunction of Pluto and the same goes for Uranus and Neptune and those Parts that only the trans- Saturnian are part of the derivative formula.

All the Planets affect mundane charts, such as national natal charts as they are abstract entities that represent the entire collective society of that nation.
In late August of 2012 I gave three dates for citizens of the USA to be very wary of in the immediate future at that time . As Pluto was going to conj. the USA's natal Part of Repression on Dec. 14th, 2012 and is a Part that also utilizes Pluto in the derivative formula, as Asc. + Saturn - Pluto is the formula for it, and the other two dates I gave warning of were April 15th and 18th of 2013 as Uranus was to conjunct the Part of Transformation, derived from the formula Asc. + Uranus - Mars, on the 15th and Uranus was going to conjunct the Part of Liberty aka Part of Personal Liberty, on April 18th and if you check news sources you'll find that the shootings at Sandy Hook occurred on that Dec. 18th, 2012 and the bombing at the Boston Marathon on the following April 15th, 2013 and the imposing of martial law on the city of Boston on that April 18th, three days later. The Part of Liberty being determined by the formula Asc. + Sun - Mercury.


I also have a book published about the results from some studies and research I did in the early 00's, and a chart of historical significance that produce in 2004 which were all dependent on a theory I had developed due to my being introduced to, and subsequent affair with, a women in 1999 that has Pluto on the Ascendant at birth and whom manifested exactly the attributes described by the authors Sakoian and Acker in their "Astrologers' Handbook". They al hit the nail on the head with the description of the same they give for a natal chart that has Pluto on the mid haven, which happens to be what I have in my natal chart.
In fact it was Pluto in my natal chart that my brother used as an demonstrative example to convince me in the summer of 1984 that astrology does indeed have affect on people and that the sources he gave me, such as Sakoian and Ackers writings, those of Dane Rudhyar and a few other astrologers that had written works on the subject, were those from which to proceed with if I were to be interested in joining him in his relatively recent, at that time, new interest/hobby and He not only interested me he got me fascinated with a subject I had been convinced was worthless to pursue as the knowledge, had for the greater part, been lost and a good deal of it corrupted and a lot of totally erroneous techniques and beliefs had been added to.

Pluto just crossed the mid haven of the natal chart of the United States* for the first time in the nations history three times this past year and the just left the one degree orb of conjunction on December 6th. During the Civil War Pluto was conjunct the Part of Race aka Part of Racial Consciousness aka Part of Galvanization {Asc. + Moon - Pluto] derived from the USA natal chart and is at 10* Taurus 45', in a one degree orb of conjunction or less from April 1862 to January 1865 and also to the Part of Hope aka Part of Integrity {Asc. + Mercury - Jupiter } derived from the USA natal chart at 10* Taurus 14', beginning just some weeks earlier and ending the relative same. General Lee surrendered on April 9th, 1865 and when president Lincoln was assassinated on April 14th and Mercury was conjunct the Part of Racial Consciousness at the time, Uranus conj the Part of Suicide {Asc. + C8 - Neptune} at 25* Taurus 36', Pluto was at 12* Taurus 19' and was conj the USA natal Part of Retribution {Asc. + Sun - Mars} at 13* Taurus 15' {and also the Part of Slander aka Part of Timidity Asc. + Saturn - Neptune although it's a Part that of which title I've yet to do research on and confirm...at 13* Taurus 52'}and was on that degree for a quite some time while the infamous "Restoration of the South" was initiated.
When President Andrew Johnson declared the war over on May 9th, Neptune was in direct motion at 09* Aries 29' and conjunct the USA natal Part of Transformation at 09* Aries 29" and the natal Part of Liberty at 09* Aries 37'.

Still want to believe that Pluto is some ineffectual pebble in the heavens?
In the revealing light of all that evidence ...and I have more, lots more...do you seriously believe that you will convince people that Pluto has no influence on our lives?



*The "Zero Hour" USA natal chart, 12:00:01 a.m. July 4, 1776, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
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Last edited by piercethevale; 12-24-2014 at 06:21 AM. Reason: the greater majority in the 3 to 5 planet range {and not 3 to 4} & aome grammar, punctuation and spellin'
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