Virtue of being self-absorbed?

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ynnest

Well-known member
CauCau26 said:
Putting my two cents in: I believe being selfish is quite...therapeutic. In a culture where people are being constantly...'encouraged'...to put others first. It's quite draining. Being selfless also entails the notion that whatever is yours is also theirs. People dump their problems on you like how parents dump their unfulfilled dreams and frustrations on their children and expect you to fulfill or fix them. It's like sharing toothbrush or something equally unsavory. I was born and raised in an Asian country and you Western or European folks will certainly balk at how weak boundaries are defined here. A passing acquaintance (even those who are just familiar in the face) are entitled to know where you work or how much money you make, etc. and when you don't tell them anything, you're rude or snobbish like those people from the capital. They'll gossip about you either way so its always imperative to just sidestep them or pretend that you didn't hear them.

To the OP, being selfish is okay so long as you don't intentionally hurt other beings because that will make you take responsibility and taking responsibility is an extension of selflessness. Whatever those Eastern Zen things tell you, believe me when I say that where those romantic 'virtues' (Being selfless liberates the soul; Asian women are loving and attentive; la di da) come from, they are being traded as commodity and used as a tool for manipulation everyday. While you trade with money, we trade on goodwill and debt of gratitude/honor to get the money and have them willingly coming back to give you more of their money. We (well, maybe not the monks and nuns) are much much much more cutthroat than what those zen gurus tell you. We just do it with more finesse and cunning and a friendly face. What you believe as virtue is actually early indoctrination.

I actually love Eastern spirituality and read a lot about them but when they are used to control you or make you modify your choices...ick! And you certainly must know that whatever pearls of wisdom a certain place upholds, are the very wisdom that the people in that place lack and must learn. But right now people just keep throwing these pearls of wisdom at each other like children bickering over who's stupider than the other.

Final thing: Imagine being stabbed in the chest, you're dying there and people around keep telling you to forgive the attacker, experience what it feels like to be in their shoes. To consider how they feel: their emotions, their state of mind, their anguish...and you are required to find it in yourself to 'love' this person. All the while you are bleeding and dying. That's what being selfless means in my country.
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People who deny themselves are one of most dangerous things that exists from my perspective.

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Witchyone

Witchyone

Well-known member
CauCau26 said:
Putting my two cents in: I believe being selfish is quite...therapeutic. In a culture where people are being constantly...'encouraged'...to put others first. It's quite draining. Being selfless also entails the notion that whatever is yours is also theirs. People dump their problems on you like how parents dump their unfulfilled dreams and frustrations on their children and expect you to fulfill or fix them. It's like sharing toothbrush or something equally unsavory. I was born and raised in an Asian country and you Western or European folks will certainly balk at how weak boundaries are defined here. A passing acquaintance (even those who are just familiar in the face) are entitled to know where you work or how much money you make, etc. and when you don't tell them anything, you're rude or snobbish like those people from the capital. They'll gossip about you either way so its always imperative to just sidestep them or pretend that you didn't hear them.

To the OP, being selfish is okay so long as you don't intentionally hurt other beings because that will make you take responsibility and taking responsibility is an extension of selflessness. Whatever those Eastern Zen things tell you, believe me when I say that where those romantic 'virtues' (Being selfless liberates the soul; Asian women are loving and attentive; la di da) come from, they are being traded as commodity and used as a tool for manipulation everyday. While you trade with money, we trade on goodwill and debt of gratitude/honor to get the money and have them willingly coming back to give you more of their money. We (well, maybe not the monks and nuns) are much much much more cutthroat than what those zen gurus tell you. We just do it with more finesse and cunning and a friendly face. What you believe as virtue is actually early indoctrination.

I actually love Eastern spirituality and read a lot about them but when they are used to control you or make you modify your choices...ick! And you certainly must know that whatever pearls of wisdom a certain place upholds, are the very wisdom that the people in that place lack and must learn. But right now people just keep throwing these pearls of wisdom at each other like children bickering over who's stupider than the other.

Final thing: Imagine being stabbed in the chest, you're dying there and people around keep telling you to forgive the attacker, experience what it feels like to be in their shoes. To consider how they feel: their emotions, their state of mind, their anguish...and you are required to find it in yourself to 'love' this person. All the while you are bleeding and dying. That's what being selfless means in my country.
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I think you must be very young if you think there is more pressure to be selfless now than they're used to be. I'm shocked on a daily basis by how selfish, callous, and shallow people have become, and even more shocked by the fact that they're not ashamed to say it. The internet is full of memes about how people are not going to take any ****, not going to compromise on anything, not going to listen to anyone, in other words, hell-bent on putting themselves before everyone else, the greater good be damned.

The example is a straw man argument. That is not what is asked by people like me who want people to be less selfish. We're addressing the person who did the stabbing, the person who neglects their child to go out and party, the person who cheats others, the person who uses people sexually, the person who dumps work on others, the person who mistreats animals, the person who buys products made by slave labor, the person who would like to kill someone just to see what it feels like, the person who cuts in line, the person who takes all the credit, the child who doesn't appreciate what his parents do for him, the employee who hides when there is work to be done, the citizen who refuses to pay taxes, and on and on.
 
Y

ynnest

Well-known member
Witchyone said:
I think you must be very young if you think there is more pressure to be selfless now than they're used to be. I'm shocked on a daily basis by how selfish, callous, and shallow people have become, and even more shocked by the fact that they're not ashamed to say it. The internet is full of memes about how people are not going to take any ****, not going to compromise on anything, not going to listen to anyone, in other words, hell-bent on putting themselves before everyone else, the greater good be damned.

The example is a straw man argument. That is not what is asked by people like me who want people to be less selfish. We're addressing the person who did the stabbing, the person who neglects their child to go out and party, the person who cheats others, the person who uses people sexually, the person who dumps work on others, the person who mistreats animals, the person who buys products made by slave labor, the person who would like to kill someone just to see what it feels like, the person who cuts in line, the person who takes all the credit, the child who doesn't appreciate what his parents do for him, the employee who hides when there is work to be done, the citizen who refuses to pay taxes, and on and on.
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From how I set it you are trying to hide away the shadow that exists within humanity, which will lead to subconscious projections and expressions like violence and tsunamis and dictatorships that let that energy flow "naturally" if not owned by the people themselves. If the intention would be set for the greater good of all concerned then the full responsibility and ownership of one owns shadows would be one of the major things that could help this earth more than anything.

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Witchyone

Witchyone

Well-known member
ynnest said:
From how I set it you are trying to hide away the shadow that exists within humanity, which will lead to subconscious projections and expressions like violence and tsunamis and dictatorships that let that energy flow "naturally" if not owned by the people themselves. If the intention would be set for the greater good of all concerned then the full responsibility and ownership of one owns shadows would be one of the major things that could help this earth more than anything.

Y
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I acknowledge my shadow. I have selfish impulses like everyone else. I do not indulge my shadow (though of course, I act selfishly sometimes because I'm imperfect). I believe that not indulging our shadow is what being moral is.

I don't understand how you could argue that acting on one's darker impulses will make the world better than not acting on them. Dictators act on the selfish impulses of themselves and sometimes their nations. Good leaders have selfish impulses that they keep in check.
 
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Y

ynnest

Well-known member
Witchyone said:
I acknowledge my shadow. I have selfish impulses like everyone else. I do not indulge my shadow (though of course, I act selfishly sometimes because I'm imperfect). I believe that not indulging our shadow is what being moral is.

I don't understand how you could argue that acting on one's darker impulses will make the world better than not acting on them. Dictators act on the selfish impulses of themselves and sometimes their nations. Good leaders have selfish impulses that they keep in check.
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I have never said one should act on ones darker impulses, I said that humanity must own their own shadows and heal them instead of projecting them on others. The idea that we in this world calls good and bad leaders are often symbolically the conscious/shadow sides of the same coin.

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Witchyone

Witchyone

Well-known member
ynnest said:
I have never said one should act on ones darker impulses, I said that humanity must own their own shadows and heal them instead of projecting them on others. The idea that we in this world calls good and bad leaders are often symbolically the conscious/shadow sides of the same coin.

Y
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Okay. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I have not advocated for ignoring one's own shadow or projecting one's weaknesses on other people. I'm advocating for not being selfish. I'm sure it sounds like finger-pointing, but that's what happens when you try to explain your understanding of right and wrong.

Most leaders are part good and part bad as humans, as most of us are, but there are demonstrably bad leaders (i.e. people who suck at leading), and every dictator was one by definition.
 
Y

ynnest

Well-known member
Witchyone said:
Okay. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I have not advocated for ignoring one's own shadow or projecting one's weaknesses on other people. I'm advocating for not being selfish. I'm sure it sounds like finger-pointing, but that's what happens when you try to explain your understanding of right and wrong.

Most leaders are part good and part bad as humans, as most of us are, but there are demonstrably bad leaders (i.e. people who suck at leading), and every dictator was one by definition.
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I see a world in which the shadows have been integrated and healed and where humanity is whole again. It is the beginning of the golden age and it is a blessing to be alive.

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Witchyone

Witchyone

Well-known member
ynnest said:
I see a world in which the shadows have been integrated and healed and where humanity is whole again. It is the beginning of the golden age and it is a blessing to be alive.

Y
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I admire your optimism and wish I could share it. I don't think humanity was ever whole.

And that's why I'm on the herb.
 
C

CauCau26

Active member
I often ask myself if I am unconsciously enforcing beliefs and ideas that I am consciously opposed to that's why I never reprimand younger generations for their seemingly 'selfish' and outlandish proclamations. There's so much to learn from them for they represent what we have nurtured and hated in past generations. The young ones, I believe, are now realizing that they do not want to fight a war/cause as pawns for something they did not create nor want to take part in. Allow them to mature enough and let them heal us.
 
Y

ynnest

Well-known member
Cold Fusion said:
We'll never get another golden age without the golden rule.
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I believe if you treat yourself as you would like to be treated and you give yourself all of the worlds blessings you can then extend that to others and lift them up as well. Thats why I said that the shadow must be healed before individuals can lift themselves up to that next level.

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Cold Fusion

Cold Fusion

Well-known member
ynnest said:
I believe if you treat yourself as you would like to be treated and you give yourself all of the worlds blessings you can then extend that to others and lift them up as well. Thats why I said that the shadow must be healed before individuals can lift themselves up to that next level.

Y
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The shadow is really nothing more than narcissism. You can't heal/destroy narcissism with narcissism.
 
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