Personal planets and the charts of violent offenders

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katydid

Well-known member
Here are the findings of a scientific study to check the Astrological hypothesis set forth by Liz Greene, about serial killers.
http://www.nvwoa.nl/pdfart/ruis/ruisen.pdf

Statistical analysis of the birth charts of serial killers
by
Jan Ruis, PhD

findings :
serial killers show a far higher emphasis on Mutable signs than expected (p =1E-6). Mars and Jupiter contribute most to the excess of Mutable.

I found a far higher frequency of celestial factors in the 12th house than expected. Neptune, in astrological theory the planet corresponding with this house, contributes most. Furthermore, we observe a high frequency of Pisces (only marginally significant) and far more ‘stress aspects’ of Neptune than expected.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
You've narrowed it to serial killers and included Signs and Houses. That helps. But what about those with very similar Charts who did not become perpetrators? Is there a predatory Chart that requires an external trigger? What does a predatory chart look like, generally speaking? I wonder if mine is one! Or yours!:lol:
Going by the zodiacal images alone, the predatory Signs are Cancer, Leo, Scorpio, Sagitarius, and Pisces. If the Minotaur is included for Taurus, that's another one.
SEEMS like the 8th House should be involved. And a REALLY badly aspected 12th.
 
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K

katydid

Well-known member
david starling said:
You've narrowed it to serial killers and included Signs and Houses. That helps. But what about those with very similar Charts who did not become perpetrators? Is there a predatory Chart that requires an external trigger? What does a predatory chart look like, generally speaking? I wonder if mine is one! Or yours!:lol:
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I think that IF one has a chart like this, with stressful aspects to Neptune, lots of mutable planets in hard aspects, including Mars and Chiron----then maybe it takes difficult circumstances in childhood to trigger it? Like being abused, neglected, mistreated? Years of being abused or mistreated might set the criminal behavior in motion. Whereas if a child is treated with love and affection, then maybe those mutable squares and stressed out Neptune/Chiron/Mars aspects might be turned into productive, mentally thought out creative projects.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
I've heard it said that such people begin as children, abusing helpless animals. Maybe it's a matter of "getting away with it" and proving you can outwit or even ignore the authority figures. Nasty stuff!
What about a "nice person" Chart? Any stats on that?:lol:
 
graay ghost

graay ghost

Well-known member
tsmall said:
Both. No single astrologer looks at a chart the same way as another person. So I might have some of the answers, but you (and the plural "you") could bring something I didn't know. It's not Socratic teaching. It's like...House.
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Okay then, I would leave out the moon entirely.

The idea that someone is emotionally disturbed, that their damaged psyche was created by an abusive mother or family, and all of them caused them to do something so extreme, to kill... well, it's good T.V. It might be true for some murderers. I think rather most people who were abused become neurotic and even physically ill. I also don't think that a moon that is very emotionally cold would necessarily contribute, either.

That study linked -- it contradicts some of my ideas but mutable signs do seem like they would be linked to less impulse control than other signs.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Graay ghost, I think you got it right. Many are genetically predatory; many are abused or neglected as children; and spontaneity, great for artists, is a liability for that combination. That's why alcohol is often involved--it lessens self-control. You'd make a good profiler!:bandit: Born prone to violence (genetically), and unwilling to control the impulse (the Chart).
 
Kitchy

Kitchy

Banned
graay ghost said:
Okay then, I would leave out the moon entirely.

The idea that someone is emotionally disturbed, that their damaged psyche was created by an abusive mother or family, and all of them caused them to do something so extreme, to kill... well, it's good T.V. It might be true for some murderers. I think rather most people who were abused become neurotic and even physically ill. I also don't think that a moon that is very emotionally cold would necessarily contribute, either.

That study linked -- it contradicts some of my ideas but mutable signs do seem like they would be linked to less impulse control than other signs.
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One of my favorite classes in college social psych was Deviant Behavior - so I studied a lot more of it over the years.

The age of "moral" limits being established or not established in a child, are typically in place at time of first saturn square - around age 7 - the sextile and trine prior are crucial periods in determining this.

By age 14, the opposition - the rebellion of saturn rules, behaviors, decency, propriety - are ingrained or denied. This is a period of time when kids get into trouble or they are pristeen - however - what lies in their hearts and minds are not seen as they develop. Containment by structure or stricture is saturn's thing at this time - getting back to the notion of rebellion or willing acceptance -

so the question of which way does the native go at this point, age 14, comes from the first jupiter return at age 12-13. Jupiter brings abundance in good or bad. a lot of kids at their first jupiter return find new hope and inspiration in the future and growing up and others can have a grim reality realized.

By age 21, the deviant has commited the act(s) with or without knowledge of others or retribution. By saturn return, age 28 - a healthy or unhealthy socially oriented person will have been formed or mis-shapen. The relationship to Sun and Moon from Saturn in these charts is usually obvious - and the stuff that the malefic traditionalists all write about Saturn and allegiance to Sun-Moon tradition is why they view saturn malefic-ly.

Sun is hopeful character - being noticed and being self-realized as alive. Moon is emotional character - how needs for attention and nurturing are met.

I'd look at the moon-pluto, moon-saturn aspects from perp to mom acted out in the area of the crimes - and then look at sun -pluto, sun-saturn aspects in regards to dad - and how good they were at getting away stuff.

I came upon this theory long ago when looking at Diane Downs' chart.
 
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Oddity

Oddity

Well-known member
katydid said:
I think that IF one has a chart like this, with stressful aspects to Neptune, lots of mutable planets in hard aspects, including Mars and Chiron----then maybe it takes difficult circumstances in childhood to trigger it? Like being abused, neglected, mistreated? Years of being abused or mistreated might set the criminal behavior in motion. Whereas if a child is treated with love and affection, then maybe those mutable squares and stressed out Neptune/Chiron/Mars aspects might be turned into productive, mentally thought out creative projects.
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There's no problem using Neptune, asteroids, etc. if that's what you want to do. But this is a thread about the personal planets in violent charts. Maybe someone wants to bring it back there?

I think Mrs Small has a really good point at looking at them.
 
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katydid

Well-known member
Oddity said:
There's no problem using Neptune, asteroids, etc. if that's what you want to do. But this is a thread about the personal planets in violent charts. Maybe someone wants to bring it back there?

I think Mrs Small has a really good point at looking at them.
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Ok sure. I was just going by the scientific study that was posted, which looked at which planets/aspects were showing up as significant in the charts of serial killers. It seems like a good place to start, in my opinion. But if you would rather ignore that study, and speculate, then that's fine too...:innocent:
 
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katydid

Well-known member
Oddity said:
There's no problem using Neptune, asteroids, etc. if that's what you want to do. But this is a thread about the personal planets in violent charts. Maybe someone wants to bring it back there?

I think Mrs Small has a really good point at looking at them.
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I posted the chart data for dozens of violent predators. maybe we should look specifically at those charts and at those personal planets?
 
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katydid

Well-known member
tsmall said:
I mean, the aspects to the outers are interesting, but for me, in looking at the minds of people who operate outside the lines of morality society draws, it still comes down to Mercury and the Moon. The Moon represents our basest mentality, Mercury the rational. if they are afflicted...
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But what sets these violent predators aside from run of the mill people with afflicted Mercury/Moons? Plenty of people have afflictions to their Moons and Mercurys, in my opinion. And they may be argumentative, indecisive, easily confused, even unstable. But what makes an afflicted Moon/Mercury dynamic become murderous? I think it takes something stronger to add to that mix.

Look at Ramirez:

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?...JPunETuTnJZVU2Yf6mhzb0ikKUvZ9VxqXzij_Of-z8OQc


His Moon/Mercury in Pisces squares Jupiter. But he also has Mars /Venus opposed Uranus and square to Neptune. I think that exacerbates and heightens the intensity quite a bit.
 
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Kitchy

Kitchy

Banned
katydid said:
But what sets these violent predators aside from run of the mill people with afflicted Mercury/Moons? Plenty of people have afflictions to their Moons and Mercurys, in my opinion. And they may be argumentative, indecisive, easily confused, even unstable. But what makes an afflicted Moon/Mercury dynamic become murderous? I think it takes something stronger to add to that mix.

Look at Ramirez:

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?...JPunETuTnJZVU2Yf6mhzb0ikKUvZ9VxqXzij_Of-z8OQc


His Moon/Mercury in Pisces squares Jupiter. But he also has Mars /Venus opposed Uranus and square to Neptune. I think that exacerbates and heightens the intensity quite a bit.
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the moon square jupiter by age 12 and the subsequent saturn opposition at 14 - i'd look at his life during that time. moon/merc pisces - grew up with a dream world of technicolor filter, probably - felt a spritual lacking - hence jupiter - jupiter finds spiritual lacking and fills them with spirit or blows them to smithereens and then what? no hope no adhereance to rules and ways of the civil world - why?

the core nut is moon emotion and not being recognized, validated or even listened to - hence Mercury in these folks manner of delivery. Now they are heard, listened to.

It ALL comes down to childhood upbringing - which includes don't do drugs and don't f*ck people over - if you ever try - you will have mom and god both to deal with.

Mom checks out in deviants - always and forever. Don't listen to what mom and sister and uncle and anyone tells you - listen to how these folks dealt with their mom's and how their mom's dealt with them - in all the manifestations of planets connected to moon.

Needs not met early (Maslow) are needs that are met later - in ways that are not so pretty.
 
Cap

Cap

Well-known member
tsmall said:
Ok, folks, here's a "personal planets" chart. One of my favorites, it just haunts me. It only makes sense when you study his "personal planets."

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Rosenthal,_Richard
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My take on Rosenthal chart:

Temperament

First, we have to establish native's temperament. It is predominantly sanguine with fairly influential choleric in 2nd place. (Note: temperament is not the same as character or personality, it denotes 'operational mode' of the native or how native expresses himself and manner how events from the chart mainly unfold.) So we have dominant air with occasional passionate bursts of fire.

Marriage

Venus (L7) and also dispositor of part of marriage (26 LIB 22) in 12th - indication of unhappy marriage. Further indication is Venus trine peregrine, retrograde, out of sect Saturn in the 8th. This contact with undignified malefic is especially harmful as it comes from the detriment of Venus. Situation is mitigated by trine with exalted Jupiter. Essentially, all good potential of the marriage (Venus exalted) couldn't actualize itself (12th house).
Saturn, Jupiter and Venus form a grand trine (involving two most unfortunate houses: 12th and 8th). Vettius Valens in his section on combinations of 3 stars says that this particular combination of planets, besides positive things, causes men to be "unsteady in their marriages, suffering embarrassments, hostility, and judgements."

Native's inner world

While it takes L1, Mercury and Moon to get the complete picture, I will focus here on POS (part of spirit) which is indicative of native's inner world and of things that native willfully initialize. POS (27 CAP 28) in 10th - indication of rich and active psyche. However, the quality of this psyche is described by POS's dispositor Saturn in 8th. It is important to note that Saturn conjuncts fixed star Zuben Eschamali. While generally considered as a benefic star, Zuben Eschamali can produce harmful effects when in contact with undignified Saturn, particularly sickness to children in infancy (Robson, this actually happened in native's life) and psychosis (Morse). So, we have a potential psychotic here.

Illness

Mercury (L6) in 1st is indication of major illness during life. It is fairly descriptive: Mercury (illness, mind) in 1st (head) is combust (complete blackout).

So. I'd say this was a case of mental illness and psychotic tendencies combined with unhappy marriage and the key player in unfolding of unfortunate events was malefic Saturn in 8th.
 
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K

katydid

Well-known member
Kitchy said:
the moon square jupiter by age 12 and the subsequent saturn opposition at 14 - i'd look at his life during that time. moon/merc pisces - grew up with a dream world of technicolor filter, probably - felt a spritual lacking - hence jupiter - jupiter finds spiritual lacking and fills them with spirit or blows them to smithereens and then what? no hope no adhereance to rules and ways of the civil world - why?

the core nut is moon emotion and not being recognized, validated or even listened to - hence Mercury in these folks manner of delivery. Now they are heard, listened to.

It ALL comes down to childhood upbringing - which includes don't do drugs and don't f*ck people over - if you ever try - you will have mom and god both to deal with.

Mom checks out in deviants - always and forever. Don't listen to what mom and sister and uncle and anyone tells you - listen to how these folks dealt with their mom's and how their mom's dealt with them - in all the manifestations of planets connected to moon.

Needs not met early (Maslow) are needs that are met later - in ways that are not so pretty.
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This explains it pretty well, and answers your questions about his Jupiter transits at age 13-14...:alien:


from wiki:


.[2] His father, a Mexican national and former Juarez policeman who later became a laborer on the Santa Fe railroad,[3] was a hard-working man prone to fits of anger that often resulted in physical abuse.[4] As a child, Ramirez sustained two serious head injuries. When he was two years old a dresser fell on top of him, causing a forehead laceration requiring thirty stitches to close.[5] When he was five years old he was knocked unconscious by a swing at a park,[6] after which he experienced frequent epileptic seizures that persisted into his early teens.[7]

As a twelve-year-old he was strongly influenced by his older cousin, Miguel ("Mike") Ramirez,[8] a decorated U.S. Army Green Beret combat veteran who often boasted of his gruesome exploits during the Vietnam War. He shared Polaroid photos of his victims, including Vietnamese women he had raped.[9] In some of the photos Mike posed with the severed head of a woman he had abused.[10] Ramirez, who had smoked marijuana since the age of ten, bonded with Mike over many joints and gory war stories.[11] Mike taught his young cousin some of his military skills, such as killing with stealth and surety.[12] Around this time, Ramirez began to seek escape from his father's violent temper by sleeping in a local cemetery.[12]

"Richie", as he was known to his family, was present when Mike shot his wife, Jessie, in the face with a .38 caliber revolver during a domestic argument on May 4, 1973, killing her.[13] After the shooting Richie became sullen and withdrawn from his family and peers. Later that year, he moved in with his older sister Ruth and her husband, Roberto, an obsessive "peeping Tom" who took Richie along on his nocturnal exploits.[14] He began using LSD and cultivated an interest in Satanism.[15] Mike Ramirez was found not guilty of Jessie's murder by reason of insanity (with his combat record as a mitigating factor), and was released in 1977 after four years of incarceration at the Texas State Mental Hospital. His influence over Richard continued.[16][17]

The adolescent Ramirez began to meld his burgeoning sexual fantasies with violence, including forced bondage and rape.[18] While still in school, he took a job at a local Holiday Inn, where he used his passkey to rob sleeping patrons.[19] His employment ended abruptly after a hotel guest returned to his room to find Ramirez attempting to rape his wife.[20] Though the husband beat Ramirez senseless at the scene, criminal charges were dropped when the couple, who lived out of state, declined to return to testify against him.[21]

Ramirez dropped out of Jefferson High School in the ninth grade.[22][23] At the age of 22 he moved to California, where he settled permanently.[24]
 
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animatedoodle

Well-known member
Thanks so much for posting Ramirez's chart. I remember years ago reading about him, and three things popped into my mind, now that Ive watched a few interviews with him:

1. There is a very juvenile energy that emanates from him, his ego was tied up in being macho, violent and having a greater power above him that he served. That's actually quite a dark manifestation of Pisces energy. And he loved sugar, ate lots of junk food. Now this is my observation, but when Pisces energy is not being used correctly, it will self medicate with food, especially sugar, maybe to replicate the high of being spiritually connected (this is my observation, it can probably be easy to debunk)

2. If we look at the chart as life stages, 1st being infancy, 2nd being early childhood, etc. The Mars in the second opp Pluto can signify a violent home. To give the individual a chance to empower one self, Pluto has provided crisis. I've seen this placement in other charts and it's interesting to note that with the influence of Jupiter to the Moon/Mercury conjunction in Pisces, that inflated delusion of self...did not give him the focus to transcend that violent power. He let it consume him. The violence became a part of him.

3. Mars conj Venus, that is the sexual enigma that was Ramirez and why he attracted so many women to him. I think Mars is a physical manifestation of sexual energy. And a traumatised Mars will probably see Women (Venus) as physical things that either belong to him, are to be used by him, or disposed him.

I find him awful. And am sad we share the same Moon sign.
But that interesting too... how Moon in Pisces can be so juvenile at times.
And almost lacking in logic. (that conj explain why he was so sloppy and he got caught)
 
tsmall

tsmall

Premium Member
david starling said:
Going by the zodiacal images alone, the predatory Signs are Cancer, Leo, Scorpio, Sagitarius, and Pisces. If the Minotaur is included for Taurus, that's another one.
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The predatory (violent) signs are Aries, Libra, Scorpio, Capricorn and Aquarius. Do you notice the pattern/reason?


graay ghost689269 said:
Okay then, I would leave out the moon entirely.
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Why would you leave out the Moon? There seems to be this <recent> idea that the Moon represents emotions only, but we have to remember that the Moon signifies the body as well. It is the primitive mind as opposed to Mercury who represents the rational, thinking mind.

Sociopathy, like other social disorders such as autism and Asperger's, has been linked to a malfunction of the limbic system of the brain. The limbic system used to be referred to as the paleomammalian brain, which, hey, is the purview of the Moon. :surprised:

Cap--standing ovation.
 
graay ghost

graay ghost

Well-known member
tsmall said:
The predatory (violent) signs are Aries, Libra, Scorpio, Capricorn and Aquarius. Do you notice the pattern/reason?




Why would you leave out the Moon? There seems to be this <recent> idea that the Moon represents emotions only, but we have to remember that the Moon signifies the body as well. It is the primitive mind as opposed to Mercury who represents the rational, thinking mind.

Sociopathy, like other social disorders such as autism and Asperger's, has been linked to a malfunction of the limbic system of the brain. The limbic system used to be referred to as the paleomammalian brain, which, hey, is the purview of the Moon. :surprised:

Cap--standing ovation.
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Because what I'm saying is that sociopathy is not actually the problem. Having a thought or an urge to do something is not enough. Everyone has a primitive mind, and I'm saying that how poorly off that primitive mind is isn't actually that relevant. Not all sociopaths become murderers, mentally ill people are more likely to be victims than offenders, etc. Kids do crazy, stupid things and we have a different justice system for them because their brains are still developing and we don't actually know what they're going to seem like when they're mature. Also what they don't say is that criminality takes a steep drop off between 40 and 50 -- if someone has not committed a crime at that point, they are extremely unlikely to do so, because their brain has ossified, to an extent.
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