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  #1  
Unread 12-11-2013, 10:37 PM
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does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

In several places I have read 7th house rules all marriage but I have also read that the 7th house rules the first, the 9th house rules the second marriage if there is one and a third marriage would be ruled by the 11th house. Which is correct?
Thank you

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Unread 12-11-2013, 10:53 PM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

7th house is the primary house for the natal indicator of partnership for both the first and the other marriages. Your primary axis. But the second marriage as far as I read from several books is the 3rd of the 7th house which is 9th then the 3rd marriage would be the 11th house. However, the primary indicator of formal long term relationship will always be the 7th house but the 9th and 11th will give secondary information of the 2nd and 3rd marriages. I have not done enough study on this but many astrologers that I read do use 9th and 11th house for those purposes.
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Unread 12-11-2013, 10:59 PM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

Thank you Poyi! do you know if there are any aspects that would indicate a second or third marriage? Or multiple marriages in general?
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Unread 12-11-2013, 11:02 PM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

There are many indicators which I had answered many times previously an many other members also offered their opinions before...so if you don't mind searching in the forum of those topics.
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I believe there is something of the divine mystery in everything that exists. We can see it sparkle in a sunflower or a poppy. We sense more of the unfathomable mystery in a butterfly that flutters from a twig--or in a goldfish swimming in a bowl. But we are closest to God in our own soul. Only there can we become one with the greatest mystery of life. In truth, at very rare moments we can experience that we ourselves are that divine mystery. --Jostein Gaarder, Sophie's World
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Unread 12-11-2013, 11:12 PM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

Will do! thank you
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Unread 12-11-2013, 11:16 PM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satine View Post
In several places I have read 7th house rules all marriage but I have also read that the 7th house rules the first, the 9th house rules the second marriage if there is one and a third marriage would be ruled by the 11th house. Which is correct?
Thank you
DELINEATING MARRIAGE
- MEDIEVAL METHOD -
ONE OF SEVERAL EXAMPLES IS JENNIFER ANISTON
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...907#post383907
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
This is very intriguing subject isn't it?

Well, I must mention in the very beginning in explaining the methods here that they are of medieval astrology type (Bonatti, Abu Ali, Al Khayat and etc.).
To say that the method is 'Traditional' is really using very wide range of time span in which different techniques for delineating marriage were used.
For example, the Hellenistic Astrologer's (Valens, Dorotheus and etc.) have used methods on their own, methods which I'll probably (not even later) not explain on this thread, but we can open another thread for that matter.
As this section of Traditional Astrology is quite new and in its beginnings, we now trow out the techniques here and there and title them as "Traditional". I hope that in the future we can make sub sections of traditional astrology, such as: "Medieval Astrology", "Hellenistic Astrology", Renaissance Astrology" and etc..

There are certain rules in Medieval Astrology compiled
which can give quite good and workable methods for delineating marriage.
The rules one can learn for a short period of time,
but the practice is what is needed in order these rules to become second nature
of the astrologer's intuitive tool in delineating such things as Marriage in the chart.
This is what I would like to do on this thread: to practice as much charts as I/we will have the time to do it.



The Technique

The Compound Almuten is what is very practical thing in almost all methods used in medieval delineation. It seems that Bonatti and other medievals were very fond on Compound Almutens.
I will first give delineation for male charts, and in some later post will explain the delineation for female charts.

Finding the Compound Almuten for Marriage:

Find the Rulers of all 5 dignities for these places:

1. 7th house cusp

2. Lord of the 7th house

3. Planets in 7th house (if any)

4. Moon

5. Venus

6. Part of Marriage (According to Hermes) (ASC + VE - SA) for Men.

The Planet which gets most points over these places is Almuten of Marriage.



But consider also if there are impediments to these places.

If there is affliction to 7th house
(by some Malefic's square or opposition),
to the Moon
(aspect, combust, cadent, retrograde and etc.)

See if one of the individual Almutens over these places is joined to the Lord of the Ascendant or its Almuten or the Lord of the 7th or its Almuten.
If they are in trine or sextile, and if especially in reception, then the native will rejoice in living beautiful life with his wife according to his desire.

But if the aspects were without reception, or if the aspects were square or opposition, then the significations will be judged lower.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satine View Post
Thank you Poyi! do you know if there are any aspects that would indicate a second or third marriage? Or multiple marriages in general?
THE SUN IS OF GREAT IMPORTANCE
WHEN DELINEATING MARRIAGE FOR WOMEN

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
In Women's chart the Sun is of great importance.
According to Ptolemy we seek to find the Sun in the two Oriental Quadrants: from AC to MC, and from DC to IC, because this signifies that the woman will be married in her youth and that she will take young man in her older years, but not an older husband.
But when the Sun is in the Occidental quadrants (from AC to IC, and from DC to MC), then her marriage is delayed or in youth she will take older man.

If the Sun is from the beginning of Aries till the middle of Taurus,
or from the middle of Leo all the way to the end of Virgo,
or from the beginning of Libra all the way to the middle of Scorpio,
or from the middle of Aquarius till the end of Pisces, and the significator (In women's chart this is the Lord or Almuten of the 7th house) is Occidental, she will marry in old age or with older man.

If the significator is under the Sun's beams, it signifies that she has no marriage.

If the Sun is in fixed sign signifies that she will be married to one man only.
But if in that sign there is Oriental planet, you will judge that the man will be young or that she will marry another one after that.
If the planet is Occidental, then he will be older.

If the Sun is in mutable sign she will have two husbands.
If the Sun is in cardinal sign she will have many men.




This is the chart of Jennifer Aniston.

She was very publicly married with Brad Pit
and had numerous broken relationships after that.
Her Sun is in fixed sign, so she married once.

The problem is that this Sun is afflicted from the Lord of the 7th
and the Sun itself is Almuten of the 7th.
This is (and other testimonies) what brought divorce.

Jennifer was 31 years old when she married Brad, so not so young.
Brad was 36, a little bit older then her.
Sun is in the Oriental Quarter,
but from the Middle of Aquarius till the End of Pisces
which testifies that the she will take older man and in her older years
(older from Medieval viewpoint).
With the Sun in the same sign there is occidental planet,
which again testifies about older man and marriage in older years.
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Unread 12-11-2013, 11:27 PM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

Interesting! Thank you.
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Unread 12-11-2013, 11:59 PM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

Do fixed signs usually only marry once?
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Unread 12-12-2013, 12:14 AM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

There are far too many indicators then one Fixed Sign Sun alone. I would place heavier weight on the 5th, 7th house cusp and their rulers as example.
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Unread 12-12-2013, 12:28 AM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satine View Post
Do fixed signs usually only marry once?
QUOTE

'....If the Sun is in fixed sign signifies that she will be married to one man only.

But if in that sign there is Oriental planet,
you will judge that the man will be young
or
that she will marry another one after that
....'
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  #11  
Unread 12-12-2013, 12:36 AM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
QUOTE

'....If the Sun is in fixed sign signifies that she will be married to one man only.

But if in that sign there is Oriental planet,
you will judge that the man will be young
or
that she will marry another one after that
....'
Very interesting I think I read it somewhere in one of my books maybe William Lilly's. I have Scorpio Fixed Sun sign ahahhaha with other oriental was an older husband, yep most likely marrying another one after that.
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I believe there is something of the divine mystery in everything that exists. We can see it sparkle in a sunflower or a poppy. We sense more of the unfathomable mystery in a butterfly that flutters from a twig--or in a goldfish swimming in a bowl. But we are closest to God in our own soul. Only there can we become one with the greatest mystery of life. In truth, at very rare moments we can experience that we ourselves are that divine mystery. --Jostein Gaarder, Sophie's World
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Unread 12-12-2013, 12:39 AM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by poyi View Post
Very interesting I think I read it somewhere in one of my books maybe William Lilly's.
I have Scorpio Fixed Sun sign ahahhaha with other oriental was an older husband,
yep most likely marrying another one after that.
Certainly the promise is there in the natal chart, if you are interested to activate it
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Unread 12-12-2013, 12:45 AM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

By the way Satine, if a planet is described as 'oriental of the Sun'
it means that it precedes the Sun in diurnal motion, and appears in the east in the morning, rising before the Sun.

So, if you have any planet in the same sign as your Sun,
but in an earlier degree,
then there is potential in your natal chart for a second marriage
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Unread 12-12-2013, 12:51 AM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

The question that baffles me the most is what if 2 people are in a long term relationship but never actually marry??

I know a couple that has been together 30 years... Since they were in HS but they never married....
First it was cuz they didn't have enough money, then over the years it just became "ahh what's the point"
They are still together... And seem very happy with each other.

Would they show as h7 relationship?

Also what if a couple lives together for 10 years, never marry...
They split up..
Then get married to different people later...

Since they lived together first, would that be considered the " first marriage"
And then the actual marriage would then be h9?
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Unread 12-12-2013, 12:56 AM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

Traditionally speaking, it was Saturn oriental of the Sun in my chart. Sun 17 degrees 46, came 9 degrees after Saturn at 8 degrees 30. In my Chinese reading, it was if I married too early before the age of 28 I would remarry again I will be able to process the divorce while at the same have the ability to meet someone else. I divorced before I turned 28 years, because of the major progressions and transit challenged and reviewed the marriage in Western point of view.
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Unread 12-12-2013, 01:00 AM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion o ness View Post
The question that baffles me the most is what if 2 people are in a long term relationship but never actually marry??

I know a couple that has been together 30 years... Since they were in HS but they never married....
First it was cuz they didn't have enough money, then over the years it just became "ahh what's the point"
They are still together... And seem very happy with each other.

Would they show as h7 relationship?

Also what if a couple lives together for 10 years, never marry...
They split up..
Then get married to different people later...

Since they lived together first, would that be considered the " first marriage"
And then the actual marriage would then be h9?
Always necessary to read the charts of the individuals mentioned in the examples given

Keep in mind that living together for ten, twenty, thirty years or more is often preferred for many reasons, often financial... and those financial reasons continue from year to year as time passes and the individuals do not in fact at any time 'legally marry'. Nevertheless for those individuals, so far as they are concerned, they are married.
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Unread 12-12-2013, 01:01 AM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion o ness View Post
The question that baffles me the most is what if 2 people are in a long term relationship but never actually marry??

I know a couple that has been together 30 years... Since they were in HS but they never married....
First it was cuz they didn't have enough money, then over the years it just became "ahh what's the point"
They are still together... And seem very happy with each other.

Would they show as h7 relationship?

Also what if a couple lives together for 10 years, never marry...
They split up..
Then get married to different people later...

Since they lived together first, would that be considered the " first marriage"
And then the actual marriage would then be h9?
Since most of the astrology techniques and methods were developed before modern time. We should consider and view the situation from the eyes of the past. In very strict point of views, Marriage should be through official ceremony, with witness, on paper, in front of relatives/family, to have a change of social status, change to your husband's surname etc. Living together from the old standard is not considered as marriage as you have no social status calling each other as husband and wife, even these days without such official paper, you can at most on legal right, called each other Partner only. The official 7th house will have effect on the Living/family condition your IC, your self identity AC, you social status MC.
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Last edited by poyi; 12-12-2013 at 01:03 AM.
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Unread 12-12-2013, 01:07 AM
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Wink Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Always necessary to read the charts of the individuals mentioned in the examples given

Keep in mind that living together for ten, twenty, thirty years or more is often preferred for many reasons, often financial... and those financial reasons continue from year to year as time passes and the individuals do not in fact at any time 'legally marry'. Nevertheless for those individuals, so far as they are concerned, they are married.
Thanks...

What if they live together for a year?
Would then you think of it as a marriage?

If no, at what point would it be considered as marriage?
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Unread 12-12-2013, 01:08 AM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion o ness View Post
The question that baffles me the most is what if 2 people are in a long term relationship but never actually marry??

I know a couple that has been together 30 years... Since they were in HS but they never married....
First it was cuz they didn't have enough money, then over the years it just became "ahh what's the point"
They are still together... And seem very happy with each other.

Would they show as h7 relationship?

Also what if a couple lives together for 10 years, never marry...
They split up..
Then get married to different people later...

Since they lived together first, would that be considered the " first marriage"
And then the actual marriage would then be h9?
The concept of marriage has changed completely since those techniques were developed. Marriage used to be seen as a commitment, now it's devolved into a pretty flimsy mating ritual. Modern divorce rates highlight this.

So yes, I would consider your examples as marriages, as much if not more than most modern marriages. 10 and 30 years are long periods of time for a marriage infact. Many "real" marriages don't last that long.
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Unread 12-12-2013, 01:09 AM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by poyi View Post
Since most of the astrology techniques and methods were developed before modern time. We should consider and view the situation from the eyes of the past. In very strict point of views, Marriage should be through official ceremony, with witness, on paper, in front of relatives/family, to have a change of social status, change to your husband's surname etc. Living together from the old standard is not considered as marriage as you have no social status calling each other as husband and wife, even these days without such official paper, you can at most on legal right, called each other Partner only. The official 7th house will have effect on the Living/family condition your IC, your self identity AC, you social status MC.
True legally they are not married, but there is common law...
And what "judge" would disagree that 2 people living together with 6 kids over 30 years not be considered as married..
(If it became a court case)
They consider themselves as husband and wife.
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Unread 12-12-2013, 01:15 AM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion o ness View Post
True legally they are not married, but there is common law...
And what "judge" would disagree that 2 people living together with 6 kids over 30 years not be considered as married..
(If it became a court case)
They consider themselves as husband and wife.
By laws, after certain period of living together, these days they can share the finance if they were to separate but they will never to be called as Husband and Wife, therefore a term De facto is there for a reason.

Quote:
De facto (English pronunciation: /d ˈfkt/, /d/,[1] Latin pronunciation: [deː ˈfaktoː]) is a Latin expression that means "concerning fact." In law, it often means "in practice but not necessarily ordained by law" or "in practice or actuality, but not officially established." It is commonly used in contrast to de jure (which means "concerning the law") when referring to matters of law, governance, or technique (such as standards) that are found in the common experience as created or developed without or contrary to a regulation. When discussing a legal situation, de jure designates what the law says, while de facto designates action of what happens in practice. It is analogous and similar to the expressions "for all intents and purposes" or "in fact".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto

Quote:
A de facto standard is a standard (formal or informal) that has achieved a dominant position by tradition, enforcement, or market dominance. It has not necessarily received formal approval by way of a standardization process, and may not have an official standards document.
I am not sure the Western astrology how to determine marriage. But in Chinese astrology, a marriage will always involve a Clear indicator of involvement and union combined by the Laws that is involved with official paper. De facto will never have a marriage certificate though by law they have legal right but never viewed officially with the Law of the sign as Libra 7th house as married.
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  #22  
Unread 12-12-2013, 01:16 AM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by poyi View Post
Since most of the astrology techniques and methods were developed before modern time. We should consider and view the situation from the eyes of the past. In very strict point of views, Marriage should be through official ceremony, with witness, on paper, in front of relatives/family, to have a change of social status, change to your husband's surname etc.
Certainly, high status members of society married and needed to be seen to be marrying
HOWEVER
Keep in mind that frequently, marriages were made in order to acquire property or financial benefits a
nd the marriage was frequently IN NAME ONLY
Both parties then had long-term clandestine relationships with their preferred partners

The wealthy always enjoy privilege, including the privileges of being officially married for reasons of status, such as name or fame
while at the same time enjoying the secret companionship of someone other than their husband or their wife

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ram View Post
The concept of marriage has changed completely since those techniques were developed. Marriage used to be seen as a commitment, now it's devolved into a pretty flimsy mating ritual. Modern divorce rates highlight this.

So yes, I would consider your examples as marriages, as much if not more than most modern marriages. 10 and 30 years are long periods of time for a marriage infact. Many "real" marriages don't last that long.

Not necessarily

A famous example from modern times is that of Diana Princess of Wales
married at the age of 19
who was then used as a breeding machine
to produce two 'Royal heirs to the throne of England'
before being stripped of her title of HRH
and discarded
finally dying in a 'car accident' that some felt was rather too convenient
particularly since Diana, Princess of Wales had predicted it in a letter to a friend
which was publicized after her tragic death

Her husband then married the woman he had been having a clandestine liaison with for decades
even though she was married to one of his close friends
- both he and the woman were both married and 'cheating on' their respective spouses.

So not much has changed after all since 'olden times'

Quote:
Originally Posted by poyi View Post
Living together from the old standard is not considered as marriage as you have no social status calling each other as husband and wife and even these without such official paper, you can at most on legal right, called each other Partner only. The official 7th house will have effect on the Living/family condition your IC, your self identity AC, you social status MC.
In some countries, the legal status of 'partner' is the same as that of 'husband and wife'
FURTHERMORE
the issue is now even more obscured in some countries
by the fact that gay marriage is legal
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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 12-12-2013 at 01:20 AM. Reason: clarification
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Unread 12-12-2013, 01:18 AM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion o ness View Post
True legally they are not married, but there is common law...
And what "judge" would disagree that 2 people living together with 6 kids over 30 years not be considered as married..
(If it became a court case)
They consider themselves as husband and wife
.
In fact the two people concerned can make legal wills
that are just as binding as if they were married
in terms of property division after one or both dies
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Unread 12-12-2013, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ram View Post
You have a fixed sun, right?

To be a fixed sign person you need to have more of your planets in fixed signs than in cardinal or mutable. Having fixed signs as the signs on the cusps of your stronger houses would indicate you're a fixed person as well.

A person with dominant fixed sign influence will likely marry less often, in general. But in todays divorce-centric age I don't think any type is immune, especially since the partner may not share the similar heavy fixed sign influence.

Edit: Also having more planets in the houses that correspond to the fixed signs than in the houses that correspond to the cardinal or mutable signs will indicate a more fixed person as well. Ie having more planets in house 2, 5, 8, 11 than in house 1, 4, 7, 10 or houses 3, 6, 9, 12.
Yes my Sun is in Scorpio and I have a lot of planets in the 11th house.

http://tinypic.com/r/ig9dhg/5
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Unread 12-12-2013, 01:19 AM
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Re: does the 7th house represent all marriages? Or only the first marriage?

Looking at my own chart as an example...

I lived with a man for 2 years, had a child...
I didn't " consider my self as married, but in a relationship...
A child was produced...

This man was a Cap, with heavy control issues... And abusive...

Years later
I married a Virgo, with Uranus conjunct Virgo asc... Pluto conjunct Virgo sun..

My h7 is Virgo with both libra Uranus and libra Pluto in h7

My h7 ruler mercury is conjunct my sun, actually it's Rx and combust..

My h9 is ruled by sag with Neptune in h9


Guy 1 he fit the Pluto, but in a very bad way...
Husband fit h7, but also h9
He is from another country... And has so alcohol issues. (Ie Neptune)

So go figure... Lol..

I've been wondering about who's next... Lol
H9 or to I look at h11...
Which ironically is cap... Ha
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