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  #26  
Unread 12-06-2011, 03:24 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

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Originally Posted by luna7 View Post
I'm still relatively new here. Where can I find your chart?? ta
Hi Luna, the one with natal/transits/progressed is attached in post 19 if you still want to see. http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...5&postcount=19

Do you have experience with this sort of theme?

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  #27  
Unread 12-06-2011, 03:49 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Thanks sequestra, I got it!!
I'll give you my thoughts (for what they are worth) in a bit.
Thanks, Luna
Yes I have personal experience with self sabotage....I've been reading all the threads assoc with your post with much interest
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  #28  
Unread 12-06-2011, 06:22 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

I always begin looking at the chart from the perspective of the nodes. Your S node conjunct Neptune suggests a familiarity & a desire to dissolve boundaries, to see beyond what is readily available. You know (too well?) about the impermanent, whimsical nature of life. It’s almost as if this innate wisdom works against you. The self sabotage becomes an unconscious way to resist “the norm“, to NOT get too caught up in the reality of life, and all its melodramas: family, relationships, job etc
However the Pisces Sun represents the way you self-realise….and altho it sounds very much like the South Node theme, I think the difference lies in the sharing: you need to find your roots (4th), to find a group who support & encourage discussion around the nature of things, who are just as curious as you (Gem 7th). In this way, the deep longing that you have can be nurtured, and a new way of defining yourself (ie not via self sabotage) will evolve.
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  #29  
Unread 12-06-2011, 07:37 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Thank you Luna, for another percipient evaluation from which I was able to take much of worth. And you're right, I have (from an early age) had a preoccupation with impermanence, which has flavored my perceptions with melancholic relish for as long as I can remember. I test its boundaries and rage against it, but it has consumed me time and time again. Thankfully to date I have risen (albeit each time a little worse for wear) from the ashes of these multiple self-inflicted incinerations. Existential angst in its myriad incarnations.

I really hear what you're conveying in regards to the establishment of a connection with my roots - and to do so, I feel you are also correct in saying that this will require significant relation/exposure to other people. Remaining connected to the vine, so to speak, will be my panacea.

I don't want to delve into Christian theology as I'm not a Christian, but after my brush with death last year I experienced some very strange events in succession involving John 15 ("No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine"). This is a germane time for me to be reminded of this verse, as I have isolated myself extensively for several months now, and as has previously been the case this isolation has enabled/exacerbated momentum of a downward spiral into doubt, self-loathing and negativity generally. I've hit the point where I know that any further "personal" reflection (devoid of outside opinion) truly will be a fruitless exercise. I guess it's time to bite the bullet and reconnect with the world again (and in doing so hope that it accepts me back into the fold).
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  #30  
Unread 12-06-2011, 08:57 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

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Originally Posted by Skillcoil View Post
Since this is a general discussion.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...aken/chart.jpg
Along with this, I'm a genuinely nice person. Most people aren't and I'm not great at dealing with it, this hasn't worked out well.
Hi Skillcoil So you struggle with this too? First thing jumping out to me is that strong mars squaring your saturn/neptune conjunction (but I'm no expert). I really want to hear what others have to say about your chart. What are your thoughts?
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  #31  
Unread 12-06-2011, 12:28 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

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Originally Posted by Skillcoil View Post
I feel as if things that are so easy and natural for others, such as manipulation, defending oneself, being socially clever is difficult for me (because of traits mentioned in this thread's title). Some people are into power and putting others down, I don't want to be involved but atleast if I am I want to be able to handle it well, but there is doubt, reluctance, etc.
Aw. You're too nice for the world ... I think I know what you're talking about though, my dad is a lot like this. He's a soft touch. He is the kind to give money to anyone who asks (e.g. every new cause that comes calling at the door), and he tends to think the best of people, with rarely a negative word to say about anyone. He's also incapable of lying. For as long as I can remember my mother has frequently come out with things like "Kevin you're too naive! You need to develop some cunning!" But in spite of many awkward situations and his difficulty asserting himself (not so much because he couldn't, but more because it takes a lot to make him angry), he's had a pretty **** good life out of it. People love him and trust him, and want to be around him. Especially children and animals. In fact, he reminds me of a dog... Or an innocent 4 year old in a 63 year old body. But lol, yeah I'm not saying you're like that.

However I am saying that not wanting to engage in power-plays and an inability to be manipulative is pretty appealing in my (and many other peoples) books. I think in most respects you can get what you want (the things that are good for you, anyway) by simply being a decent human being.
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  #32  
Unread 12-06-2011, 10:53 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Thanks for your feedback Sequestra. I hope you're getting the help that you need. I don't know very much at all about bipolar conditions, but focusing on the Sun and Saturn could enhance your ego-strength and provide a more solid and stable base.

It might also be worth looking at your Chiron in Taurus in the 6th house too. Chiron is the only earth planet, and I don't think it makes any aspects in the birth chart (the astro.com default is to not show them, but I don't think it makes any in your case anyway.) Because the 6th house has a lot to do with integration of body and mind, and chiron tends to be experienced as a wound, a lack of groundedness related to body alienation/trauma may add to your struggle to find psychological stability. Perhaps yoga or something similar, or body-centred therapy, is worth considering.

You may also struggle to express anger due to Mars being in Pisces and aspecting Venus, Neptune and Pluto in the 12th.

I hope that your Saturn return helps you to further establish a sense of being a solid and defined individual. If there's anything else you want to ask, please do. I don't have any training as a psychologist or psychoanalyst but I can try to express things from an astrological perspective, and maybe that will help a bit.

You might also benefit from reading some of the solar myths that involve a journey to the underworld.
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  #33  
Unread 12-07-2011, 02:28 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

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Originally Posted by miquar View Post
I don't know very much at all about bipolar conditions, but focusing on the Sun and Saturn could enhance your ego-strength and provide a more solid and stable base.
Thank you Miquar. Quite some time ago another astrologer told me to focus my energies into my sun's trines to saturn conjunct pluto in terms of making a stable base for myself. I am tentatively intending to do this again, with the awareness that I will need to watch out for the limited/fixed focal point and obsessiveness that has previously accompanied it (in the past I would set a goal and do anything within my power to attain it, to the expense of everything/everyone else).

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Originally Posted by miquar View Post
It might also be worth looking at your Chiron in Taurus in the 6th house too...Because the 6th house has a lot to do with integration of body and mind, and chiron tends to be experienced as a wound, a lack of groundedness related to body alienation/trauma may add to your struggle to find psychological stability. Perhaps yoga or something similar, or body-centred therapy, is worth considering.
In Placidus my sun squares chiron and venus/mars sextile it. The section I have italicized is so key to me, truly. I have severe body dysmorphia that I was previously linking to my venus/mars square neptune in the 1st, but it would make sense that chiron is involved; I just previously struggled to connect the dots (with my limited knowledge) as venus/mars are in positive aspect to it, and that threw me off. You really hit the nail on the head with the yoga recommendation - my psychologist recommends this too and I will be starting soon (my parents both do it).

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Originally Posted by miquar View Post
I hope that your Saturn return helps you to further establish a sense of being a solid and defined individual. If there's anything else you want to ask, please do. I don't have any training as a psychologist or psychoanalyst but I can try to express things from an astrological perspective, and maybe that will help a bit.
Thank you so much Miquar, I feel I have taken up so much of your time already! I really am very appreciative of your time and effort - you have been extremely helpful with your 'on the mark' analyses.

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Originally Posted by miquar View Post
You might also benefit from reading some of the solar myths that involve a journey to the underworld.
I love mythology. I have a couple of books that I have enjoyed, but do you have any recommendations?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars ~ Wilde
C'est la vie. Life is a cruel mystery indeed, but I suppose I shall continue to torture myself anyway

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  #34  
Unread 12-07-2011, 03:43 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Hades Moon's are pretty self-abusing. Often our own worst enemies. Paradoxically, it can represent ascension from blight. Sometimes I think it's a self-serving cycle of hitting bottom just so we can rise up again.
Self-defeat is really fear of success, Saturn, knowing what is required to succeed but not having the self~confidence to take it on, or Neptune, rejection of it, or not wanting to stand out in a crowd, so to speak ~ a desire to stay in background. Or Uranus', "**** it all!" orientation ~ an ultimate decision to change horses in midstream or to "call the whole thing off."
A tormented sun, moon or mercury by these planets ~ can affect the way we express ourselves, adapt to situations or mental conditioning.
Most people lacking confidence or who are self abusing are likely to have early conditioning that either put them on impossible pedastals or continually knocked them down. Makes me think of quincunx aspects ~ a need to adjust to internal counter-requirements; or squares, where proving oneself despite obstacles (created by self or circumstance), evoke defeatest stances. Too much work. This seems to be represented as a reluctance to wait while working ~ a desire for immediate gratification over lengthy, sustained effort.

Last edited by MaeMae; 12-07-2011 at 03:47 AM.
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  #35  
Unread 12-07-2011, 08:14 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skillcoil View Post
Since this is a general discussion.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...aken/chart.jpg
Along with this, I'm a genuinely nice person. Most people aren't and I'm not great at dealing with it, this hasn't worked out well.
You have Leo on the cusp of the 7th house, which indicates that you may display a fairly sunny, playful disposition…..when you first start a relationship. But as the relationship develops, another side of you could emerge: the Venus in Virgo. One of Virgo’s strengths is to visualise “how things could be”, they have a sense of the ideal - but when things don’t live up to this ideal, the Virgo shadow: criticism of self & others creeps in. Another of Virgo’s archetypes is the “servant”. Neither excess criticism, nor the idea that one partner “serve” the needs of the other work very well in the 7th house, which is really about the formation of equal partnership (intimate & otherwise). It’s OK to have high expectations of relationships, but if the Virgo traits get activated, and you have no awareness that these, in fact, are you own attributes, it could lead to some conflictual experiences.
The square to the Moon would seem to indicate something of the same flavour: that you are vulnerable to being defined by another’s needs. It’s very important to respond to your Moon’s needs: the Moon helps to stabilise you. For you, in Sag, it might include travel or study or making sense of your….self.
The self (symbolised by the Sun) is placed in the 8th house, meaning that deep intense experiences are a vital part of your growth. The 8th house experience often feels chaotic, just because it‘s trying to shake up the ego, catalyse growth. Being in Libra, I’m wondering whether these experiences might include some kind of art form: are you attracted to “dark” art? Of course, relationships are also an excellent way of living out Libran energy; just expect the intimate ones to be intense, and try not to fall into the (previously mentioned) shadow Virgo stuff.
The Moon in Sag will love trying to understand the meaning of all the intensity, it loves the getting of wisdom. Maybe, eventually, this wisdom will be something that you can take out into world, make it a part of your career. Teach it.
Lastly, the Mars in Aries in the 1st is courageous, even if, at times it doesn’t feel like that. Maybe you have a fear of appearing selfish (or something) & you allow the niceness of the Virgo/Libra to run you. Even tho you appear relationship oriented, I think it’s important to be a little bit selfish……even if it just means giving yourself time out to go to an art gallery, or movie….in other words, I think you should occasionally engage with solitude deliberately.

Last edited by luna7; 12-21-2011 at 06:07 AM.
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  #36  
Unread 12-07-2011, 08:19 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Hi Sequestra. Yes I guess if you allow a 5 degree orb for a sextile and a ten degree orb for a square, then Chiron is just square the Sun and just sextile Mars. I don't tend to use orbs over 8 degrees for conjunctions or 4 for sextiles, but some astrologers do.

'Placidus' is the house system by which each of the quadrants of your chart have been divided into 3 houses. The aspects between the planets will be the same whichever house system you use.

Some myths that you might find interesting if you haven't already come across them are:

The Babylonian myth of the Sun-god Marduk. Liz Greene says, in Apollo's Chariot, 'his battle with and victory over the mother-goddess Tiamat is a powerful image of the solar struggle against the darkness of the collective and the instinctual compulsions of the body.

Inanna is a goddess from Sumerian myth who descends into the underworld to visit her sister, Ereshkigal. I won't spoil the story in case you haven't read it!

The defeat of the Hydra by Heracles is also evocative of the struggle of the ego against the 'dark side' of human nature. Chiron figures in this story to, because he is accidentally wounded by one of Heracles arrows, which has been dipped in the blood if the defeated Hydra, and this is where Chiron's incurable wound comes from. This can be read as Chiron symbolising the random misfortune that can befall us, whether we deserve it or not, when the primal passions (symbolised by the Hydra) erupt from the collective unconscious (for example through a war or the act of an individual).

Features of the Greek sun-god Apollo that may be especially relevant to your watery Sun are his being the god of music, his power to break family curses, and his killing of the python.

It would be worth getting hold of a copy of Apollo's Chariot, by Liz Greene, I think, especially as transiting Saturn is about to trigger the trines to your Sun.
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  #37  
Unread 12-08-2011, 02:48 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

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Originally Posted by miquar View Post
'Placidus' is the house system by which each of the quadrants of your chart have been divided into 3 houses. The aspects between the planets will be the same whichever house system you use.
Oops. Thanks for clearing this up, silly me. And yeah I tend to prefer tighter aspects myself, I just seem to feel the need to include the loose "bad" ones in my chart (but nevermind the sextiles).

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Originally Posted by miquar View Post
Some myths that you might find interesting if you haven't already come across them are... It would be worth getting hold of a copy of Apollo's Chariot, by Liz Greene, I think, especially as transiting Saturn is about to trigger the trines to your Sun.
Thank you for all of those recommendations! I'm looking into them as I type, and ordering Apollo's Chariot. I have another mythology book by Liz Greene (somewhere in my messes); she co-authored it with another woman and it was tying in the tarot with mythological tales; anyway it was great and I loved her story-telling ability, so I will look forward to reading this. Thanks again
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  #38  
Unread 12-08-2011, 06:32 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

When I look at someone's chart and see Saturn opp. or square Moon, I KNOW this person is going to be self-sabotaging and prone to depression. The hard aspects between the two planets, especially in a night chart, indicates that the person's parent model was highly negative and that the child absorbed their parent's negative behaviours. The house and sign placement shows where and how they express this internalised conflict.

Other things to look for are hard aspects to the MC (the point of our achievements) and hard aspects from Neptune to the personal planets. I've noted that people with either a lot of Water, no Water at all, or with a bipolar Fire/Water dichotomy tend to be the most self-undermining.

As I always recommend, look to the dignities of any planets involved in such questions. Dignities are sorely underused, but they reveal much about the quality of a planet, and the challenges that planet faces. A poorly dignified Venus in hard aspect to the person's ruling planet in a Water sign (eg. Aries AC, Mars in Pisces, Venus in Virgo (her Fall) - that person will likely sabotage themselves through their sexual practices and addictions, especially addictions to corruptive and sweet substances: alcohol, sugar, etc.

Incidentally, hi again! I haven't been back on AW for a while
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  #39  
Unread 12-08-2011, 08:03 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Pax ~ your avatar is brilliantly colored and artful. I love how it pops out against the boring blue of the page.
(veering away from topic momentarily)
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Unread 12-09-2011, 06:57 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

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Pax ~ your avatar is brilliantly colored and artful. I love how it pops out against the boring blue of the page.
(veering away from topic momentarily)
Thanks! I recently redesigned all of my livery
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  #41  
Unread 12-19-2011, 10:51 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

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lease could you post the source where Liz Greene says that all women are great nurturers.
In her earlier books she does tend to hold to this. Especially in her second book, Relating (the first was Saturn).

She did subscribe at this this stage that women were more attuned to Moon and Venus and men to Sun and Mars, though she did not seem at all happy with the idea. In a later book, however, she tells one woman at a conference that she has 'failed to incarnate' becasue she wasn't expressing her sun sign enough.

Frankly I felt in the end that a good many astrologers are capable of evangelising their beliefs about how you should be living your chart with all the zeal of a Jehovah's Witness.

She seemed very keen to be following the teachings of the master Jung, who also opined that women were supposed to be feeling types and mothers and nurterers etc and if they weren't, then they were animus possessed and not 'real women.'

Oh yes - I met a few Jungians at the time when Green's books were first being publishedand making waves and when I tried to question one of them at some supurb New Age conference at the very beginning of the 80's, one of the speakers, another woman no less, told me I could not possibly hope to comprehend the great teachings of the redoutable Dr Greene, because women weren't supposed to be intellectual, so therefore it 'had' to be totally beyond me.

Condescending or what???? - I suppose I should be greatful she did not call me animus possessed.
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  #42  
Unread 12-20-2011, 07:23 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

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In her earlier books she does tend to hold to this. Especially in her second book, Relating (the first was Saturn).

She did subscribe at this this stage that women were more attuned to Moon and Venus and men to Sun and Mars, though she did not seem at all happy with the idea. In a later book, however, she tells one woman at a conference that she has 'failed to incarnate' becasue she wasn't expressing her sun sign enough.

Frankly I felt in the end that a good many astrologers are capable of evangelising their beliefs about how you should be living your chart with all the zeal of a Jehovah's Witness.

She seemed very keen to be following the teachings of the master Jung, who also opined that women were supposed to be feeling types and mothers and nurterers etc and if they weren't, then they were animus possessed and not 'real women.'

Oh yes - I met a few Jungians at the time when Green's books were first being publishedand making waves and when I tried to question one of them at some supurb New Age conference at the very beginning of the 80's, one of the speakers, another woman no less, told me I could not possibly hope to comprehend the great teachings of the redoutable Dr Greene, because women weren't supposed to be intellectual, so therefore it 'had' to be totally beyond me.

Condescending or what???? - I suppose I should be greatful she did not call me animus possessed.
I have read those Liz Greene books you mentioned several times over the years. She did, and still does, suggest that most women are naturally more attuned to Moon and Venus energies than most men, and vice versa with Sun and Mars. This is clearly true to any astrologer looking at birth charts, although fortunately societies all over the world seem to be generally moving in a direction which is more conducive to each gender getting in touch with their trans-gender personal planets more easily.

In pointing out this manifestation of the law of correspondences, astrologers can remind both men and women that extra effort may be needed to live out some energies than others. We would say this with regard to a square or opposition aspect, so why wouldn't we say it where there was a possible inherent conflict between the psychological gendering of the native and the 'gender' of an archetype. Greene does repeatedly remind us that we should all try to live out all our planets.

(As for the woman whom she told had not incarnated because she was not living out her Sun sign, Greene might just as easily have said this to a man who was not in touch with his Solar energy.)

I don't think Greene is under any illusions as to the short-comings of Jung in his treatment of women in his personal life, and sure this will affect his work. But as long as one is aware of this, then the useful parts of his work are still available for us to utilise. I personally feel that Jung did as much as Rudhyar to revolutionise astrology into something relevant to today's world.

The people you met at the conference do seem to be evangelical which is obviously an undesirable trait. Neither Jung nor Greene have any control over whether people give them guru status.

If you feel that I've not addressed your points, please try and find a quote that will give us something more concrete to focus on.
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  #43  
Unread 12-20-2011, 09:16 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

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(As for the woman whom she told had not incarnated because she was not living out her Sun sign, Greene might just as easily have said this to a man who was not in touch with his Solar energy.)
_
Presumably the woman concerned was not actualy either terminally autistic or schizoid, where you might really be tempted to conclude that here is someone who has failed to incarnate. Any readers here of Laing's The Divided Self or Donna William's Nobody Nowhere might certainly get my point well enough there. It still seemed a bit of a sweeping thing to say to an adult presumably control of all their faculties, but then I was not there, at that particular workshop. It sounds a little bit too much like Greene's other own personal guru rearing his head, the channlled entitiy of Alice Bailey to me.

Quote:
I don't think Greene is under any illusions as to the short-comings of Jung in his treatment of women in his personal life, and sure this will affect his work. But as long as one is aware of this, then the useful parts of his work are still available for us to utilise. I personally feel that Jung did as much as Rudhyar to revolutionise astrology into something relevant to today's world.
That certainly is the case with the older Greene, as she specificaly refers to Jung's lovers for example in her later book on Uranus. However, earlier on I do suspect Jung and Bailey were pretty well Greene's gurus. I do think that if you go to an astrologer for guidance, it is helpful if you know what kind of philosophy the astrologer subscribes to. It is not helpful to have a philosophy imposed if this totally goes against the beliefs of the client, and to keep on pushing it is, I believe, abusive.

There is a lot more critical thinking within the astrological world now, more schools of thought. However, when I first encountered the astrology world, almost everyone I met was either a card-carrying theosophist or disciple in one shaoe of form of the teachings of Alice Bailey. And whilst I was seduced by the notiona of creating a Better World were all faiths are unified and the problems of inequality, war and strife resolved, other things I encountered posed questions for me I did not see being addressed or answered anywhere, and I make my point here:

http://webspace.webring.com/people/w...Principles.htm

Quote:
If you feel that I've not addressed your points, please try and find a quote that will give us something more concrete to focus on.
In quoting the specific books where I was tryng to answer a question rather than make any point, I thought I had been reasonably concrete. But this does make me wish to bring up one or two new points.

It is laudable again that Greene suggests that the whole chart with all its panets should be expressed. Not to, to see any one planet as being intrinsically negative, is a perfect way to create a 'sabotaging' planet. These used to be the 'malefics' Saturn and Mars, those they have been rehabilitated more recently - especially by Greene. Nowadays, the 'bad guys' are more likely to be natal Moon and its South Node.

To bring things back to the main topic of this post.

The morerecently-discovered Centuars also seem tobe 'good' at sabotage. One is linked by Eric Francis specificallyto cutting, though I don't remember its name. Other orbs such as Nessus or Pholus seem to make Chiron look like apicnic in comparison, and I have seen Chironlinked to self-sabotage too.
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Unread 12-20-2011, 08:30 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

I Nexus 7. I have a vague recollection of the incarnation thing from reading a transcript, though I might not be partially remembering the incident you are talking about. But my sense is that the comment about incarnating was about the person's reluctance to adopt a well-defined sense of self and a well-defined role in the world. A kind of Neptunian (or perhaps to some extent Lunar) reluctance to become more Saturnian and Solar. I don't know the works of those authors you mentioned.

I'm sure Greene would consider herself a follower of Jung in some sense, though I doubt she'd want to use the word guru. I never grasped her allegiance to Bailey in the stuff that I've read, but perhaps this comes from articles that were written, etc. long before I got into astrology (I was only a young child when Saturn and Relating came out and didn't discover astrology until the mid 90s.)

I agree about the need for anyone in the helping professions to keep their own beliefs in their place. I'm not sure if that was a comment about Greene or not. I haven't found her to be pushy in seminar example charts involving people attending the seminars.

I don't know anything about the centaurs other than Chiron, as I don't use any other asteroids in interpretation. It certainly makes sense to me that Chiron should be linked to self-harm, since it symbolises the clash of the ideal with the reality of a world in which injustice and brutality manifest so readily. If the gap between the ideal and reality is too great, Chironian energy can perhaps manifest as feeling that one is irreparably flawed.
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Unread 12-20-2011, 10:27 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Asteroids are all meaningless. There are too many of the dang things.

A person can do whatever they want as long as it's healthy. We're also all bound to do something unhealthy and even persist in doing it. I would never use astrology as the basis for finding something wrong with a person. I would use it as a sort of hint, but I'd still test it on a practical level. Introspection is the best you can do on your own to fix your issues. Most of "the rules" as I'm going to call them are like all other rules: they're made by other people so that other people can be in power over you. Let's not force Neptunians to be more Solar (egotistical and attention-seeking) and Saturnine (organized, hard-working and skeptical.) We have other people who are Solar and Saturnine. People need to listen to themselves and check themselves to make sure no one else's rules get engraved into their heads because that's the worst possible thing that could happen. It makes you like someone else's property.
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Unread 12-20-2011, 10:42 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

The person in the seminar was suffering and the way out of that suffering was to cultivate more balance between her planets. If I remember rightly she was very grateful for the insight.

Not sure why you read my comments as a call for archetypal cleansing of inferior Neptunians. That's just the way you filtered it I guess.
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Unread 12-20-2011, 11:36 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

We all filter stuff weird on the Internet. I especially seem to filter stuff weird and karma-ically(?) get my stuff filtered weird in return. It's even worse when you can't actually see the person in front of you and at least get an idea of what they're thinking and feeling about you. Communication wasn't really built to work this way.
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Unread 12-23-2011, 11:36 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

hi,
i have Mars conjunct Saturn. i have trouble with self sabotaging and self destructing myself. and mostly comes out uncounciusly from me. mostly i cant controle it.
i get so angry specially at myself. and most of the time i hold it inside me, but this builds up, and finally it needs to find an outlet. then the only outlet i find is to (well, was to) cut myself, beat myself, and tell myself the worstest words.
did i maybe try to see my limits. i dont know. since Saturn it also has to do with limits, maybe i puted myself into a (hard and rigid) test.

still i havent managed to work it out at all, this aspect.

i think mostly aspects wich repres you energies, like could be "mars/saturn", "pluto/mars", etc would show some kind of negatibe outlet for the "expresion" or energies that could turn into self sabotage etc.

Last edited by ariana; 12-23-2011 at 11:38 AM.
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