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Unread 05-09-2017, 05:29 AM
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Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

It's been stated before, and it's something I've been ambivalent toward ever since I've heard it, as it is an easy leap to make but may not sum up the issue quite as well as might be thought. And that is the whole question of, "Do traditional astrologers have a more prominent Saturn than non-traditional astrologers." Is there evidence that astrological traditionalists have Saturn prominence in their chart?

Now, ironically or not, this sub forum has the most formal and serious tone of the whole website, and that may be an indication of Saturnine influence or could be a mere coincidence. However, I encourage everyone, regardless of how "advanced" or "novice" they are to contribute their reasons as to why they are drawn to traditional techniques/philosophy and then state or show their chart so we can see if Saturn has a strong presence.

Starting with myself, I was drawn to traditional techniques for a number of reasons. I really liked that there was more depth and substance to the traditional seven planets than what I was seeing afforded to them within more modern circles. All of sudden, Mercury for example had a lot more to say in a chart, as much as any other planet, and this made it possible to read a chart with more detail and less data points. This was the same with every other point and with the houses as well. This I felt was a more powerful way to do astrology and the strongest barometer to which I judged was that I was making effective delineations, I saw improvement after utilizing a more traditional perspective.

Another issue I've had which I've become satisfied with is this. Although ancient techniques don't preclude personality/psychological appraisal, it's also able to describe convincingly the material reality of a situation. What may be a disadvantage to the more psychological approach to astrology is that it's description of the mind of an individual is unverifiable to outside observers, and hence in a reading what could potentially happen is a misattribution of one character trait with another. Say for instance, someone is reticent and is very conservative and no-nonsense in there demeanor. But when they come to you, they ask about their "shyness" even though they have a leo ascendant. The chart shows Pluto in 12th, Saturn conjunct Leo ascendant, 2 Sagittarius planets and Mars in Capricorn. If a psychological astrologer explains that the 12th house Pluto and Mars in Capricorn is the cause of their shyness, with reference to the sign Capricorn and the 12th house, then the individual might go away and say "Wow! Thanks for enlightening me!" What the person doesn't know, is that there was a stronger aspect in the chart that would have described the exact reasons as to why their personality is the way it is, and it is just this ability or possibility for explaining or away or an "escape hatch" that I dislike in certain modern circles. The more traditional astrologers are more likely to handle practical questions that are easy to verify as legitimate or not.

So essentially, maximization of resources and verifiability. I'll admit that does have a Saturnine ring to it. I have more reasons but that's enough for now.

Does Saturn have a strong presence in my chart? It actually does, but when you look at my chart you aren't likely to make that summation. I have an Aquarius Moon, which makes my "irrational mind" under the influence of Saturn, and something that may be unfamiliar to a number of people is that my Saturn is stationing direct. Stations are an indicator of strength/loudness in the life, and are on par with angularity and phasis. With Saturn thus placed in my chart, it provides a fine counter-force to all the rest of the elements within my chart which would make me unconscientious. And at the very least, it's placement in the 3rd house would incline me toward an "organized mind".

What about you all. Would you attribute your attraction to traditional astrology to "Saturnine reasons" and is Saturn a strong presence in your chart. Inquiring minds would like to know.
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Unread 05-09-2017, 06:40 AM
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Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

I think it's wonderful that you enjoy traditional astrology. I just wish modern astrology weren't so often the foil against which the virtues of traditional astrology can be extolled. Too often, I think these comparisons really sell modern astrology short, because any type of astrology can look bad in the hands of people who take short-cuts with it or don't understand it very well.

In either modern or traditional astrology, Saturn is definitely the planet to know well.

In your chart, having Saturn stationary and conjunct your P of F gives it some strength, but it doesn't pick up any essential dignities. It's in a cadent house in Placidus, but would move to the angular 4th house in whole signs. Your domiciled Jupiter disposits Saturn but squares it from the 12th house. The moon is out of sect although she is in her own terms. You do have Venus in Capricorn as well as Uranus and Neptune if you use modern outers. Venus is in her own triplicity and terms.

To me, the predominant flavour of your chart is Sagittarius-- especally because those planets move to your first house if you use whole signs, as many trads do. This is strengthened by your domiciled, in-sect Jupiter as the strongest planet in your chart.

I do take your point in a general way. I've seen some politically very conservative people with a strong Saturn or Capricorn type of chart.

Modern astrology is really my first love, but I am trying to teach myself traditional methods in a general way.

With Saturn opposite my sun, I see Saturn as my teacher. I have Jupiter in Capricorn, sun, Mercury, and Venus in Aquarius. Saturn in Virgo is joying in the 12th in Placidus but in my first house in whole signs. If you don't require an aspect for mutual reception, I have Mercury in mutual reception with Saturn-- and with Uranus.
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Unread 05-09-2017, 07:10 AM
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Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

I understand that (conventional) modern astrology is "scapegoated" in my opening and is often treated that way in these types of discussions, but those are the most accessible options for English speaking practitioners, generally speaking. I also encountered modern astrology before going anywhere near traditional (or even knowing that it exists) so these comparisons aren't coming from left field.

I might "represent" traditional techniques, but I do not discount modern astrology done well. Maybe it's because the lines are so clearly defined and many things within the tradition have had time to develop more, but I think its easier for incompetence to affect a modern reading in the ways that I've described, due to a sort of cross pollination of new age types/thinking and the psychological/humanistic approach that modern tends to take. It probably boils down to what you want out of astrology.

Noting that Modern in your first love,if you could go back in time and both approaches were available to you at the start of your astrological journey, would you still be inclined towards the modern style? What virtues do you see in Trad?
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Unread 05-09-2017, 09:05 AM
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Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

I really would not be well-read enough to really make detailed comparisons between modern and traditional, but I would say I'm certainly more into modern psychological astrology. I'm throwing this out there and my chart so you can make comparisons. I do see your point in the main 7 planets; the outer planets can dominate the conversation. I have to admit I spend a lot of time reading about the outer planets more so than the others, especially Neptune and Pluto.

I don't necessarily think it is true though that it is difficult to verify things of the mind. People will let you know what's going on with them by their behavior, and their mind/behavior has an effect on their material reality and vice-versa.

I don't think Saturn has a big influence on my chart. Mercury would be considered the chart ruler, Moon is the most aspected planet, and I would say Pluto has a large influence.
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Unread 05-09-2017, 06:56 PM
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Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

To clarify, I wasn't saying that it was difficult to verify things of the mind. Rather, I was saying that it's easier to make misattributions when talking about mental processes and the astrology behind it. The Barnum effect is related to this issue in some manner, but in a way that accepts any astrological explanation for a given trait.

I'd agree with you that Saturn doesn't play that big a role in your chart. It's located in the 6th (cadent) and doesn't regard the ascendant, is not in phasis or stationing and has no rulership over any personal points or planets of mentality. It does afflict your Moon and that will have an obvious effect on your emotional landscape/"irrational mind" but I doubt you're a stranger to the implications of that aspect.
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Unread 05-09-2017, 10:33 PM
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Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers


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Unread 05-09-2017, 11:46 PM
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Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

I really would not say Moon/Saturn means irrationality. Reservedness, lack of sharing emotions, maybe out of touch with my own emotions, sure. If anything I would say my Moon in Scorpio would incline me to be paranoid but I would not say irrational is Moon/Saturn. For me, I would think traditional seems to be more fatalistic, and tripleooo you mentioned it can be honest to the point of not caring if it hurts feelings. Conspiracy you mentioned something about the end goals of using astrology probably has a hand in which type of astrology you use. To me, I don't see the point in fatalistic interpretations, and I think they bring up some concerning implications. If you're doing a reading, would you not sugarcoat or tread lightly just for the purpose of being honest and right? I think you can do a lot of damage exposing things straight out that people are not ready to hear so bluntly.
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Unread 05-10-2017, 12:03 AM
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Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

@Tripleooo

For someone who recently found it, you've definitely copped to the whole astrology thing well, triple. A natural perhaps?

You've touched upon some of my other reasons for preferring the traditional style over the modern. It's an old contention that modern is "cotton candy" and that traditional is "doom and gloom" which does none of them any favours, but traditional is definitely less likely to spare feelings. Hell, a lot of the premier astrologers back then were under the auspices of rulers, nobility and other powerful people. Incompetence could result in poverty or death so they were motivated to do a good job. Not to say that there weren't charlatans and other undesirables practicing astrology, but it's the prominent ones who have influenced the history and practice of astrology.

I'm not sure if you took this into account, but the fact that Saturn conjuncts your ascendant ruler makes its influence much stronger than what would normally pertain. Saturn is also advancing (angularity - closing in on an angle regardless of signs involved) and therefore will be "loud" in the life.

You also have a very potent trine between Cancer Moon in the 9th and Scorpio Mars in the 1st. Both work for you as you are born in the night. This might go a ways to explaining your knack for astrology (among other things of course)

Good observation on the house systems situation. This might throw some for a loop, but just because it's "traditional" doesn't mean I will automatically take it as gospel. I'm very much apart of the "does it work" school. I have similar reservations when everybody says "You must use the regiomantus house system when doing horary!" Why? Did the beings that govern astrology put into the constitution that you can only ask interrogations using one house system? Did the ability to divine answers from the stars happen to originate when regiomantus was the most commonly used house system or whatever? Not to say that it's not effective, but I've used placidus and seem to do fine for myself and for the people I read for.

With regards to whole signs, I do see it's efficacy and I like it quite a bit. It does snap some things in my chart into greater focus and does make certain traits and experiences in my life more "neat and tidy" astrologically speaking. So I use both, but don't go around crusading for either because I believe its more important to ask yourself why you are doing the things you do. That ensures that we evolve our practices instead of slavishly following it like automatons.

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Unread 05-10-2017, 12:06 AM
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Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

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I really would not say Moon/Saturn means irrationality. Reservedness, lack of sharing emotions, maybe out of touch with my own emotions, sure. If anything I would say my Moon in Scorpio would incline me to be paranoid but I would not say irrational is Moon/Saturn.
The moon is the "irrational mind" in traditional astrology which means the emotions, imagination, instincts, the less logical and pre-frontal type of thinking for the older "thinking" systems in the brain. Hence what I meant by that statement is that Saturn has an influence on your "irrational mind". Whatever connotations the word irrational has in this day and age, I did not evoke it in that statement.
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Unread 05-10-2017, 12:14 AM
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Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

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Conspiracy you mentioned something about the end goals of using astrology probably has a hand in which type of astrology you use. To me, I don't see the point in fatalistic interpretations, and I think they bring up some concerning implications. If you're doing a reading, would you not sugarcoat or tread lightly just for the purpose of being honest and right? I think you can do a lot of damage exposing things straight out that people are not ready to hear so bluntly.
My goal in a reading is to bring to light whatever issue the person is facing, as nakedly as possible. This allows the person to see what pertains in their situation, and therefore come up with solutions that will tackle the issue that they are facing in the most effective way they can muster. I think it's a disservice to be too overly shy when giving uncomfortable truths but in saying that I am no means advocating that one "slaps them upside the head " with the truth. All that does for people with lower pain thresholds is shut them down and exacerbates any clarity or problem solving that would have transpired. It's a balance that all should tread but I always err on the side of naked truth, and if one can't handle it, I reveal incrementally.
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Unread 05-10-2017, 03:13 AM
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Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

@conspiracy. I apologize for getting defensive when it was unwarranted re: Moon/Saturn. I see your point on being honest so the best decision can be made. I do see how sometimes interpretations can be too on the safe side; mostly I have seen this while trying to search for Pluto or 8th house interpretations or indicators of abuse when trying to find things out for my personal chart or charts of friends etc. I think I'm misinterpreting discussions on sugar coating to be meaning that the implication is "tough" charts will be doomed when that is not what is being said, rather honest clear interpretations are wanted, and I get that.
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Unread 05-10-2017, 07:36 PM
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Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

This might not be traditional astrology, but I had a strange urge to look at the sabian symbols of the chart of this thread. It was so fitting to the goals of this thread that I think you folks wouldn't mind me sharing.

ASC is at 27 Cap (28 Cap when looking at the SS)

Quote:
PHASE 209 (CAPRICORN 29°): A WOMAN READING TEA LEAVES.

KEYNOTE: The ability to see the Signature of hidden meaning in every occurrence drawing one's attention.

Man has always sought to interpret the meaning of events or situations which baffle him in terms of specific omens or "Signatures." The reading of tea leaves is only a commonplace modern version of a certain type of procedure used by priests of all ancient religions. The practice is based on a realization of "the relation of everything to everything else" — a definition of astrology given by Marc Jones. Dream interpretation in depth psychology belongs to the same category, as it is based upon the establishment of a close connection between the unconscious and the conscious. But in dream analysis the individual unconscious, at least at first, is mainly referred to, while in omens (or modern fortune-telling at its best) one relies upon the power of occult forces or entities to convey the information that will clarify confusing situations.

This fourth stage symbol can be referred to a specific "technique" of understanding or evaluation. What is implied is the ability not only to perceive the facts of everyday existence, but to see through these facts and discover how they are related to the realm of basic meanings or archetypal processes. This is essentially what is meant by true CLAIRVOYANCE, the capacity to see in everything the Signature of deeper realities.
That's legit
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Unread 05-10-2017, 10:45 PM
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Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

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Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
This might not be traditional astrology, but I had a strange urge to look at the sabian symbols of the chart of this thread. It was so fitting to the goals of this thread that I think you folks wouldn't mind me sharing.

ASC is at 27 Cap (28 Cap when looking at the SS)

PHASE 209 (CAPRICORN 29°): A WOMAN READING TEA LEAVES.




That's legit
Out of curiosity why did you post the Sabian Symbol for Cap 29? I was under the impression it would be Cap 28.
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Unread 05-13-2017, 02:21 AM
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Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

When they were created, the 0 degree of a sign was referred to as the first instead. So they go from 1 - 30 instead of 0 - 29 like we're used to seeing on the astro.com charts.
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Unread 05-13-2017, 03:52 AM
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Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

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When they were created, the 0 degree of a sign was referred to as the first instead. So they go from 1 - 30 instead of 0 - 29 like we're used to seeing on the astro.com charts.
Isn't that why they round up in the first place? As, let's say 27'30" would really be 28'30" and so we look at degree 28 since it covers up to 28'59"? Something in the 29th degree wouldn't be in the 1st degree of the next sign, would it?

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Unread 05-13-2017, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
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I think it's wonderful that you enjoy traditional astrology. I just wish modern astrology weren't so often the foil against which the virtues of traditional astrology can be extolled. Too often, I think these comparisons really sell modern astrology short, because any type of astrology can look bad in the hands of people who take short-cuts with it or don't understand it very well.

In either modern or traditional astrology, Saturn is definitely the planet to know well.

In your chart, having Saturn stationary and conjunct your P of F gives it some strength, but it doesn't pick up any essential dignities. It's in a cadent house in Placidus, but would move to the angular 4th house in whole signs. Your domiciled Jupiter disposits Saturn but squares it from the 12th house. The moon is out of sect although she is in her own terms. You do have Venus in Capricorn as well as Uranus and Neptune if you use modern outers. Venus is in her own triplicity and terms.
Well i agree that we can't hold modern astrology accountable for the individuals who practice it and might be overlooking or confusing things. I think its due to a leap in the accessibility of astrology, in the boom of the internet where suddenly it was so easy to cast charts and look up information online.

Well regarding ct's chart i would say his saturn influence is stronger. Squares are Saturns domain, and the fact that jupiter is in the 12th house isnt as important as the fact its conjunct the ascendant. The cool thing i noticed about ct's chart is that the pof-saturn conjunction is basically exactly squaring the midpoint of his two clusters of planets.


Theres an alternate theory that saturn is the higher octave ruler of the sun and moon. Cayce said the afterlife realm associated with Saturn was a place for souls to begin anew.

My saturn is in a configuration with both of my luminaries. Making an opposition to the moon and a sextile to the sun. Its also conjunct uranus in sag. Ive just gone through my saturn return and it was good to me. i do think its important to mix traditional principles with new inspirations... Its the essence of great inventions.
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Unread 05-13-2017, 06:50 AM
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Smile Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Venus View Post
Well i agree that we can't hold modern astrology accountable for the individuals who practice it and might be overlooking or confusing things. I think its due to a leap in the accessibility of astrology, in the boom of the internet where suddenly it was so easy to cast charts and look up information online.

Well regarding ct's chart i would say his saturn influence is stronger. Squares are Saturns domain, and the fact that jupiter is in the 12th house isnt as important as the fact its conjunct the ascendant. The cool thing i noticed about ct's chart is that the pof-saturn conjunction is basically exactly squaring the midpoint of his two clusters of planets.


Theres an alternate theory that saturn is the higher octave ruler of the sun and moon. Cayce said the afterlife realm associated with Saturn was a place for souls to begin anew.

My saturn is in a configuration with both of my luminaries. Making an opposition to the moon and a sextile to the sun. Its also conjunct uranus in sag. Ive just gone through my saturn return and it was good to me. i do think its important to mix traditional principles with new inspirations... Its the essence of great inventions.
Veeery interesting if a Saturn/Uranian Conjuntion makes for an easy SR! Which is stronger in terms of Houses, Signs, and Aspects?
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Unread 05-13-2017, 07:50 AM
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Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

I'm an extreme novice, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I am trying to learn modern and traditional, so I can understand when things are referenced in either, but I am slightly more drawn to traditional. Specifically, using traditional when it comes to prediction. If I'm trying to understand what the year is going to be like, I want to know the challenges that might be faced and using malefics seems to be working well. Traditional also seems a bit more straightforward to me when it comes to information (like predicting when a pregnancy could happen).

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Unread 05-13-2017, 04:47 PM
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Veeery interesting if a Saturn/Uranian Conjuntion makes for an easy SR! Which is stronger in terms of Houses, Signs, and Aspects?
Im not sure that it was the sat-ura conj that made it easy but thats a possibility. Saturn hit the degree of my natal saturn around march of 2016, retrograded and hit again in november of 2016.

Around march of 2016 i was six months into my new career as a vet tech, learning a lot and advancing at work. Pretty stable in life. I was also working on editing an astrology book for republication.

During late 2016 i had an interestingly transformative spiritual experience. I have a lot of these and this was a harmonious one. Good signs.

Interestingly as Saturn moved away from my natal saturn and came closer in perfection to my natal uranus, early this year, i reconnected with a friend who i have a mutual moon-uranus opposition with (both ways.) Work related, we got a new manager at our office and she was trying to mess my schedule up. Well we got into a few spats about it and i almost quit- but it resulted in my being given a raise, my normal schedule back, and the new manager ended up quitting.

Well regards to my saturn-uranus conjunction i believe Saturn to be stronger.

The conjunction is in my second house of sag. Jupiter is in the sixth house aries conj descendant and trining both planets but the trine is closer in aspect to uranus.

Saturn rules my third house which contains ceres and neptune. Neptune is one of my strongest 3 planets. Uranus rules 4th which is empty albeit juno.

I think Saturn gets the edge because of its contact to the luminaries (a one degree orb sextile to sun.)

Uranus is in a novile configuration with mercury and mars but this isnt as influential as the configuration between saturn and the luminaries.

Ill show you my chart if you wish to see it.

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Unread 05-16-2017, 03:02 AM
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Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Venus View Post
Well i agree that we can't hold modern astrology accountable for the individuals who practice it and might be overlooking or confusing things. I think its due to a leap in the accessibility of astrology, in the boom of the internet where suddenly it was so easy to cast charts and look up information online.

Well regarding ct's chart i would say his saturn influence is stronger. Squares are Saturns domain, and the fact that jupiter is in the 12th house isnt as important as the fact its conjunct the ascendant. The cool thing i noticed about ct's chart is that the pof-saturn conjunction is basically exactly squaring the midpoint of his two clusters of planets.


Theres an alternate theory that saturn is the higher octave ruler of the sun and moon. Cayce said the afterlife realm associated with Saturn was a place for souls to begin anew.

My saturn is in a configuration with both of my luminaries. Making an opposition to the moon and a sextile to the sun. Its also conjunct uranus in sag. Ive just gone through my saturn return and it was good to me. i do think its important to mix traditional principles with new inspirations... Its the essence of great inventions.
Huh, that's an interesting way to read my chart. I like it.

Since this was kicked out of traditional, why not explore Saturn from unconventional angles - could you elaborate on what Cayce said about Saturn's realm being a place for new souls? And what's the reason for Saturn being the higher octave of the sun and moon?

You have a couple of mutual receptions going on between your luminaries and Saturn so they're more "marinated" in Saturn than they look. I wouldn't say Saturn plays a big role in your map, though.
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Unread 05-16-2017, 03:07 AM
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Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

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I'm an extreme novice, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I am trying to learn modern and traditional, so I can understand when things are referenced in either, but I am slightly more drawn to traditional. Specifically, using traditional when it comes to prediction. If I'm trying to understand what the year is going to be like, I want to know the challenges that might be faced and using malefics seems to be working well. Traditional also seems a bit more straightforward to me when it comes to information (like predicting when a pregnancy could happen).
Without any grains, there wouldn't be a beach.

Saturn doesn't play much of a big role in your map either. It rules the 3rd and is located there - so you may be disposed to being serious minded.

On an unrelated note, you share the mercury/pluto conjunction with two other people on this thread. Woopie
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Unread 05-16-2017, 03:11 AM
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Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

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Ill show you my chart if you wish to see it.
Yup, let's check that chart out!
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Unread 05-16-2017, 04:50 AM
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Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

I'm quite up in the air about it all personally and have no fixed view on it all, but i do recognise there are many other types of astrology, and find them intriguing.

I have Retrograde Saturn and some aspects to it in 11th house if you are interested.







Cool thread, i like your question.
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Unread 05-16-2017, 10:50 PM
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Huh, that's an interesting way to read my chart. I like it.

Since this was kicked out of traditional, why not explore Saturn from unconventional angles - could you elaborate on what Cayce said about Saturn's realm being a place for new souls? And what's the reason for Saturn being the higher octave of the sun and moon?

You have a couple of mutual receptions going on between your luminaries and Saturn so they're more "marinated" in Saturn than they look. I wouldn't say Saturn plays a big role in your map, though.
Yeah i agree, saturn isnt particularly strong in my chart.

The simple explination for why saturn is the higher octave of sun and moon: Saturn is the lord of time and rules structure and limits. Those limits... The quantification of time.. Are set in place by the sun and moon.

I dont know that i gave the explination much justice. But that is the basic implication.

Cayce had many outlandish things to say about astrology, in general.

This is how he described each planet:

"As in Mercury pertaining of Mind.
In Mars of madness
In Earth of flesh
In venus as love
In jupiter as strength
In saturn as the beginning of earthly woes, that to which all insufficient matter is cast for the beginning.
In Uranus as of the psychic.
In neptune as of mystic
In Septimus [pluto?] as of consciousness.
In arcturus as of the developing."

Last edited by Phoenix Venus; 05-16-2017 at 10:53 PM.
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Re: Saturn and Traditional Astrologers

From reading 3744-2

Q. What is meant by banishment of a soul from its Maker?

A. Of the will as given in the beginning to choose for self as in the earthly plane, all insufficient matter is cast unto Saturn. To work out his salvation as would be termed in the word, the entity or individual banishes itself, or its soul.."


And from reading 945-1:

" For the earth and saturn are opposites, as it were; for to Saturn goes those that would renew or begin again, or who have blotted from their experience much that may be set in motion again through other influences and environs that have been a portion of the entity's experience."

Also of note. In my book, "Astrology and the Edgar Cayce Readings" by Margaret Gammon, she says "The sex glands are associated with Saturn, according to the readings."
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