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  #26  
Unread 03-25-2019, 02:17 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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It's a hot topic in the hot topic arena.


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Unread 03-25-2019, 02:17 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Hey, in case I didn't make it clear I think your ideas for an atheistic astrology are top-notch. It's your presentation that wants a bit of work.

Don't listen to Morin when it comes to social graces. Please. And no, his twelfth house is not an excuse!

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I have not used the word idiot, though I quoted Morinus and his contemporary astrologers using the words ''ridiculous'' or ''Arabic sorcery'' and Ptolemy using the words ''waste of labour'' which you might see similar. If they are using it, I guess it's common and traditional. Sometimes offending feelings is inevitable, I was offended by their remarks few months ago too. But now I understand that they were not with bad intentions at all, and I am thankful. I guess it does work in changing minds sometimes. I am 6.9 atheist, but I don't see how that can detract from my arguments.
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  #28  
Unread 03-25-2019, 02:22 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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I am grateful for Ptolemy calling my months of labour on lots ''waste of time'', and
there was probably some use to it nevertheless

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post


I am grateful for Morinus telling I was using ''fictitious'' systems.
I actually was an idiot, but now my vision is clear.
I'm still an idiot

but

may recover at any time
and I'm Siriusly grateful for this interesting discussion
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  #29  
Unread 03-25-2019, 02:29 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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I am grateful for Ptolemy calling my months of labour on lots ''waste of time'', and I am grateful for Morinus telling I was using ''fictitious'' systems. I actually was an idiot, but now my vision is clear.
I'm glad that Master petosiris still log in to this site and teaching an idot like me

Edit: BTW, all of this are gratitously FREE.

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  #30  
Unread 03-25-2019, 02:34 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Need some time to write the communist manifesto as a member of the proletariat myself, need to work on my manners for the same reason.
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  #31  
Unread 03-25-2019, 02:37 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Hey, in case I didn't make it clear I think your ideas for an atheistic astrology are top-notch.

It's your presentation that wants a bit of work.
You got a B plus - more work needed


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Don't listen to Morin when it comes to social graces. Please.

And no, his twelfth house is not an excuse!
Interestingly I picked up one of Morinus books today

but I did not have time to read it

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  #32  
Unread 03-25-2019, 02:39 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

There are some things I enjoy in him, particularly his style, but I think many of his theories, particularly dignity, are based on misunderstanding of Ptolemy, also mainly that he criticizes the usage of ''universal significators'' by Ptolemy, and instead he brings mostly traditional significations of houses.
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  #33  
Unread 03-25-2019, 02:48 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post

Edit: BTW, all of this are gratitously FREE.
Siriusly FREE???????????
ironically freebies are mostly unappreciated
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  #34  
Unread 03-25-2019, 04:46 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Hey, in case I didn't make it clear I think your ideas for an atheistic astrology are top-notch. It's your presentation that wants a bit of work.
And I also want to thank you for your Jewish remarks, they are as expected!
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  #35  
Unread 03-25-2019, 05:20 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Oddity, I think Petosiris just wants to be provocative.

Must be a tough Uranus transit for him, or something.
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Unread 03-25-2019, 06:28 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Everything in astrology is just someone's opinion, nothing more. Certainly not based on a study of millions of charts by any individual and verified by an absolutely flawless record of prognostication.

And any opinions from practitioners of old, when life expectancy was far shorter than today, travel in a lifetime was far more limited, means of exchanging of ideas and study was far more limited because of that limited travel (including for correspondences), have no logical reason to be taken as absolute gospel. Not by any of them.
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  #37  
Unread 03-25-2019, 09:57 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Oddity, I think Petosiris just wants to be provocative.

Must be a tough Uranus transit for him, or something.
Easy for you to say, you are Jewish astrologer too! It can't be easy being both an atheist and an astrologer.

But I wonder, waybread, do you even believe there is even one astrological technique that is real/physical/scientific?

Last edited by petosiris; 03-25-2019 at 10:07 AM.
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  #38  
Unread 03-25-2019, 11:34 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Must be a tough Uranus transit for him, or something.

There can be no other explanation
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  #39  
Unread 03-25-2019, 11:38 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Originally Posted by unique_astrology View Post

Everything in astrology is just someone's opinion, nothing more.
Certainly not based on a study of millions of charts by any individual

and verified by an absolutely flawless record of prognostication.
And any opinions from practitioners of old, when life expectancy was far shorter than today,
travel in a lifetime was far more limited, means of exchanging of ideas and study
was far more limited because of that limited travel
(including for correspondences), have no logical reason
to be taken as absolute gospel.
Not by any of them.
And that mon ami is yet another opinion with which astrology abounds

because

as you yourself just mentioned
and I quote
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Everything in astrology is just someone's opinion, nothing more.
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  #40  
Unread 03-25-2019, 11:50 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post

It can't be easy being both an atheist and an astrologer, but
I think you've made a good outline for yourself, and others who are.
Oddity highlighting individual belief systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post

Hey, in case I didn't make it clear
I think

your ideas for an atheistic astrology are top-notch.

It's your presentation that wants a bit of work.
resounding praise indeed
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Oddity, I think Petosiris just wants to be provocative.
Must be a tough Uranus transit for him, or something.
WB you misunderstood
if you read the whole thread
notice that
Oddity and petosiris merely exchanging banter
perhaps your own outers need checking vis a vis transits
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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

And I also want to thank you for your Jewish remarks, they are as expected!
quite - those with different beliefs

are obviously not usually in agreement
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Easy for you to say, you are Jewish astrologer too!
It can't be easy being both an atheist and an astrologer.
But I wonder, waybread, do you even believe there is even one astrological technique
that is real/physical/scientific?
an excellent question
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  #41  
Unread 03-25-2019, 05:52 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Quote:
In the latter capacity in 1983, Curry and four other UK astrologer/academics privately published a series of theoretical papers utilizing phenomenology, structuralism, linguistics, psychoanalysis, Marxist thought, modern physics and feminist critical theory to explore astrological theory and practice. Curry’s own paper, An Aporia for Astrology, deserves a larger audience, since it is one of the first serious attempts to devise a taxonomic classification of modern astrological thought. Adopting a strategy analogous to Michel Foucault’s “epistemes”, Curry located divinatory astrology within the camp of Hermeneutic Astrology, which he characterized as being “a way of preserving and developing a ‘magical’ attitude, at a time and in a society that is hostile to such an attitude. Such an attitude is identified with the kind of mystical experience described in mystical and religious literature, and in Heidegger’s philosophy.” - http://www.astrozero.co.uk/articles/...gtheMoment.pdf
I think I almost got a heart attack, though it is interesting to read about the Cornelius camp. In any case, the causal conceptualization of astrology is most definitely not Ptolemaic, with abundance of evidence of it in Dorotheus, Manetho or Pliny the Elder. The list I can go through is much, although for a summary of this topic, I recommend page 146 of Chris Brennan's book.
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  #42  
Unread 03-26-2019, 05:00 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Easy for you to say, you are Jewish astrologer too! It can't be easy being both an atheist and an astrologer.

But I wonder, waybread, do you even believe there is even one astrological technique that is real/physical/scientific?
I was raised in a non-sectarian nominally Protestant home by parents who called themselves "free thinkers." I converted to Judaism in 1974, because it mattered to my Jewish ex-husband. I was involved in Judaism for 20 years, but let go of it when we separated and divorced. I have never renounced Judaism but have been non-practicing for a long time. I am not an atheist but I do not believe in the anthropomorphism of deities in most of the world's religion.

It is difficult to make a case for an objectively real/physical/scientific basis for astrology. For sure, we deal with empirical stuff: an ephemeris, Arabic part calculations, aspects, and so on. But what is this based on? The Mesopotamians believed that the planets were gods, or omens from the gods. Sure, they wrote down all kinds of planetary observations; but fundamentally Nergal (Mars) brought warfare and drought-- not as a prediction based upon those observations-- but because this was the god Nergal's nature. The personalities of the Mesopotamian gods preceded astrology.

This is what the Hellenists adopted, along with Egyptian solar deity beliefs.

Our fave Ptolemy had as his main project getting astrology on a "rational" Aristotelian proto-scientific basis. Valens had as his main project anthologizing a lot of disparate astrological materials in a way that could help the fledgling astrologer read actual horoscopes for actual people. But their efforts followed centuries of star-gazing as an essentially religious endeavor. So whatever else these two did, they had to incorporate much of this religiously-inspired Deposit of Faith.

If today we interpret the planet Mercury as ruling liars and thieves, it is because this was the nature of the young god, mythological Mercury. If the planet Venus rules sexual love, it is because this was her nature as a goddess. The religious mythology predated the introduction of astrology into ancient Greece.

Anciently some astrologers prayed to a god (notably Mercury) to help them with their chart reading. Lilly similarly prayed to the Christian God.

Are you familiar with Geoffrey Cornelius, The Moment of Astrology? He discussed the problem of the wrong chart nevertheless yielding a correct answer. He sees astrology as a form of divination.

What about Under One Sky, by Rafael Nasser? He asked 12 astrologers coming from different schools of astrology to read the same "blind" chart. The chart native, an American woman, contributed an autobiographical article, which none of the astrologers read ahead of time. Schmidt, the Hellenist, sort of scrubbed out by not actually reading the chart. The most accurate readings were by Demetra George-- using asteroids!!--and the Vedic astrologer.

A horoscope interpretation takes place in the subjective mind of the astrologer. We follow rules, but these are often not the same ones between astrologers of different schools.

If your preferred traditional methods worked so well, why on earth would a sensible astrologer who came later wish to change or improve upon them?
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Last edited by waybread; 03-26-2019 at 05:05 AM.
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  #43  
Unread 03-26-2019, 06:07 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

I guess not...
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  #44  
Unread 03-26-2019, 01:23 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Quote:
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I don't have the authority to delete your posts.
That's up to you or the mods.
thanks for the clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post


I was raised in a non-sectarian nominally Protestant home by parents who called themselves "free thinkers." I converted to Judaism in 1974, because it mattered to my Jewish ex-husband. I was involved in Judaism for 20 years, but let go of it when we separated and divorced. I have never renounced Judaism but have been non-practicing for a long time. I am not an atheist but I do not believe in the anthropomorphism of deities in most of the world's religion.

It is difficult to make a case for an objectively real/physical/scientific basis for astrology. For sure, we deal with empirical stuff: an ephemeris, Arabic part calculations, aspects, and so on. But what is this based on? The Mesopotamians believed that the planets were gods, or omens from the gods. Sure, they wrote down all kinds of planetary observations; but fundamentally Nergal (Mars) brought warfare and drought-- not as a prediction based upon those observations-- but because this was the god Nergal's nature. The personalities of the Mesopotamian gods preceded astrology.

This is what the Hellenists adopted, along with Egyptian solar deity beliefs.

Our fave Ptolemy had as his main project getting astrology on a "rational" Aristotelian proto-scientific basis. Valens had as his main project anthologizing a lot of disparate astrological materials in a way that could help the fledgling astrologer read actual horoscopes for actual people. But their efforts followed centuries of star-gazing as an essentially religious endeavor. So whatever else these two did, they had to incorporate much of this religiously-inspired Deposit of Faith.

If today we interpret the planet Mercury as ruling liars and thieves, it is because this was the nature of the young god, mythological Mercury. If the planet Venus rules sexual love, it is because this was her nature as a goddess. The religious mythology predated the introduction of astrology into ancient Greece.

Anciently some astrologers prayed to a god (notably Mercury) to help them with their chart reading. Lilly similarly prayed to the Christian God.

Are you familiar with Geoffrey Cornelius, The Moment of Astrology? He discussed the problem of the wrong chart nevertheless yielding a correct answer. He sees astrology as a form of divination.

What about Under One Sky, by Rafael Nasser? He asked 12 astrologers coming from different schools of astrology to read the same "blind" chart. The chart native, an American woman, contributed an autobiographical article, which none of the astrologers read ahead of time. Schmidt, the Hellenist, sort of scrubbed out by not actually reading the chart. The most accurate readings were by Demetra George-- using asteroids!!--and the Vedic astrologer.

A horoscope interpretation takes place in the subjective mind of the astrologer. We follow rules, but these are often not the same ones between astrologers of different schools.

If your preferred traditional methods worked so well, why on earth would a sensible astrologer who came later wish to change or improve upon them?
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Unread 03-26-2019, 02:33 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Lets see:

Your current claim (or Morin's) about astrology is to look at it from a rational scientific perspective, while employing an atheistic view of the unvirse and look at the physical influence of the planets in our biological human affairs. But then you (or Morin) call horary "sorcery", which by definition mean its a technique used by employing the invocation of some mystic divine being to forsee the future, and thus presenting a case for the supernatural?

Doesn't make much sense. Unless of course you are using the word "sorcery" just as a simple construction to demean the technique, by implying horary does not work. Which is it?
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Unread 03-26-2019, 02:55 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Lets see:

Your current claim (or Morin's) about astrology is to look at it from a rational scientific perspective, while employing an atheistic view of the unvirse and look at the physical influence of the planets in our biological human affairs. But then you (or Morin) call horary "sorcery", which by definition mean its a technique used by employing the invocation of some mystic divine being to forsee the future, and thus presenting a case for the supernatural?

Doesn't make much sense. Unless of course you are using the word "sorcery" just as a simple construction to demean the technique, by implying horary does not work. Which is it?
Where did I say it does not work? No, I did not, I am just saying there has never been founded argument for its mechanism, just as there is no one for reading liver entrails or augury. To many astrologers, it didn't seem right to classify astrology with these fields of ''divination''.
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  #47  
Unread 03-26-2019, 03:03 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Here is the opinion of one religious thinker and notable astrologer, Al-Biruni of horary:

''Here astrology reaches a point which threatens to transgress its proper limits, where problems are submitted which it is impossible to solve for the most part, and where the matter leaves the solid basis of universals for particulars. Where this boundary is passed, where the astrologer is one side and the sorcerer on the other, you enter a field of omens and divinations which has nothing to do with astrology, although the stars may be referred to in connection to them.'' - Lewis, J. R. (2003). The astrology book: the encyclopedia of heavenly influences. Visible Ink Press.
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

As far as I can tell, Morinus constantly refers to the Bible and occultism in his work. However, as far as I can tell Ptolemy does not make a single argument involving such, and to the extent that his hypothesis are natural and capable of investigation, they deserve our attention. And though the four qualities do not constitute the material basis of the world as he thought, they do still persist in the atmosphere to heavily affect human affairs. Of course, it could be proven that they are wrong, for if you compare the two other scientific fields of Ptolemy, astronomy and geography, they had progress and advancement that is myriad-fold, but astrology, mostly zero.
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Unread 03-26-2019, 03:28 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Where did I say it does not work? No, I did not, I am just saying there has never been founded argument for its mechanism, just as there is no one for reading liver entrails or augury. To many astrologers, it didn't seem right to classify astrology with these fields of ''divination''.
Just trying to get a picture of the intention behind your post, which was in part to bring foward the discussion about Morin's ideas (which to be honest is about time we have it), so just trying to see how much of what you wrote was playing devil's advocate.

Well the argument has always been that questions are created at a certain time for a specific purpose and thus a chart can be drawn for them. In the similar manner that elective is used to create a specific event. Aren't those functionally similar?
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Here is the opinion of one religious thinker and notable astrologer, Al-Biruni of horary:

''Here astrology reaches a point which threatens to transgress its proper limits, where problems are submitted which it is impossible to solve for the most part, and where the matter leaves the solid basis of universals for particulars. Where this boundary is passed, where the astrologer is one side and the sorcerer on the other, you enter a field of omens and divinations which has nothing to do with astrology, although the stars may be referred to in connection to them.'' - Lewis, J. R. (2003). The astrology book: the encyclopedia of heavenly influences. Visible Ink Press.
But Al-biruni is limited by the religious element of his time. It is not uncommon given divination was banned in the religion/empire of his time, and while astrology was permitted as the study of the influence of the planets, most techniques concerned with astrology were not about divination.
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