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  #451  
Unread 10-10-2013, 01:18 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
JA, putting words in my virtual mouth to suit your own agenda does not discredit my posts or my stand. I just said above that I do not advocate death post-diction. Changing the word to "supporting" doesn't alter anything. It merely suggests that you've run out of good arguments on behalf of your perspective.

My point really and truly is that I would be happy if this death-talk all went away. We can more profitably engage in trying to help people with all sorts of other issues. However, I have yet to see actual harm done through analysis of death charts of deceased people. Are you aware of any contrary examples?
The fact is that the analysis of death charts of deceased people

i.e. astrological death clock postdiction

is practiced for the purpose of honing skills of astrological death clock prediction

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Sometimes people like to analyse past events. This doesn't mean that they use them to predict the future.
So let's use the following useful analogy
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Let me give you an analogy. I live on a road in a semi-rural neighbourhood with a stop sign at the bottom of the hill where my road meets the highway. Before we moved in, our realtor warned us about this intersection when it's icy. Previously one winter a woman braked for the stop sign, but slid through and was killed by an oncoming vehicle. However, I don't know who she was. To me, she's sort of hearsay.

I stop at the stop sign and look both ways. Anyone else whom I've driven with stops at the stop sign. But why? OK, so there's a a blind curve to the right with traffice often exceeding the 80k speed limit, but why stop if the RCMP aren't waiting to give a ticket? I've never been hit, nobody I know personally has ever been hit.

So are stop signs up to individual drivers' discretion, in your opinion? Why shouldn't I just drive through it any time I want to? Would it matter if I had passengers who might be really apprehensive about that oncoming motorcycle?
The analysis of traffic accidents at the road you have just described may then be undertaken
for purposes other than preventing potential future accidents because
as already stated
:
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Sometimes people like to analyse past events. This doesn't mean that they use them to predict the future.
Then
despite doing no predictive work

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
My position is based upon having read hundreds of charts for people. At over 5000 posts, and counting, W.
JMO Telling people the past events of their lives is telling them something they already know. Clients go to astrologers to obtain predictions of their potential future.

i.e. Prediction

and not 'postdiction'

astrology is associated from time immemorial with the prediction of events including death

Quote:
Originally Posted by may28gemini View Post
Compassion is not morality but it unproductive as it does nothing except waste time and energy "feeling" for others when you have no idea how that person actually feel. My pains are not your pains. Your pains are not mine. We're NOT one. You are there. I am here.

It is immoral to pressure others to feel/care/think something they don't and it's also immoral try to control how others feel/care/think after any social/business interaction/transaction has happened
.

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  #452  
Unread 10-10-2013, 03:06 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Actually May28 morals are social constructions. Compassion may be not part of your moral compass but doing not to others as I would not enjoy done to myself is part of mine. People do not live and behave in vacuum but are part of a whole. Several avenues of science show this.
Morals are principles/structures that are formulated as a code to live but there is no evidence of it being merely social constructs. By postulating that society as a larger entity/authority and has the power to dictate and enforce what is dignified as "moral" or "not moral" is tied to the acceptance that the group is greater than the members. And how did the group obtain power in the first place? By hook or by crook, pressure, bully, manipulate, ostricize others into submission to relinquish personal power to someone(s) who "knows better" and can act on everyone's behalf for their "own good." That basic maxim is rooted in socialism/communism/fascism- all means of totalitarianism which glorifies existing as one and not accommodating individual free will because freedom would be too difficult to control. The need to control human nature because it is unpredictable/uncooperative with the "group" is immoral.

And what "science" actually makes the claim that morals are socially constructed and that understanding of reality is by collective understanding of the world? So believing that morals are the product of collective consciousness, one must accept that they cannot come up with their own code of ethics and acquiesce that they are incapable of making decisions on their own and cannot determine what it is they need, want, think, feel, or otherwise.

I'll keep my freedom and free will. I will continue to use my brain and not have to rely on busybodies to who have control issues make decisions for me.

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It is immoral to pressure others to feel/care/think something they would rather not, but social influence is a powerful form of pressure on an individual (see Asch; Milgram; Turner). A main theme so far has been the sizeable grey area which denotes the uncontrolled practice of astrology, unlike other professions, which have access to people, including the vulnerable. The point has been, thus, it is immoral to make such transactions, sell a product, to mentally unstable people who have been socially influenced or are easily manipulated. A further reference has been that since an internet forum is not a place where one can discern whether they are doing a first, second, or third person consultation or the age/state of a member, it is immoral to not care about this far-reaching consideration and to proceeed regardless. In my opinion such behaviour seems opportunistic and unfortunate.
Please don't cite social theorists that back up your stance. That doesn't make your point anymore believable or valid than what I have to say in the most plain ways.

Of course social influences CAN influence individual choices. I'm not talking about cut off shirts being in fashion and if you don't wear one, you're totally uncool and deserves to be made fun of and no boy will ask you out to the prom. I'm talking about detriment and corruption that society expands by rewarding those who cooperate and give up their free will by going along with whatever concepts/principles/values that are being touted as the idea du jour and seriously punish those who willfully disobeys (imprisonment, put to death, etc.) because they choose to follow their own moral compass and ideologies- that's totalitarianism.

If murder was temporarily declared as not immoral and as long as it's not considered immoral, murder can freely be committed with no repercussions. But does that still make murder wrong or because society/authority suspends any punishment for the action actually legitimize and invalidate that it was once strongly considered immoral? And what if murder violates an individual's personal principles? If society instructs you to murder, but because it's against your principles and everyone else is doing it, are you going to go murder or are you going to make a conscious stand?

Bottom line, if it weren't for dissenters, fervent individualists, and strong proponents of freedom who think for themselves, question society and authority, none of us would have made it out of the caves. We would still live completely subject to others' will and power and force to adhere to that form of logic (which is illogical). Just as it was wrong for the Roman Catholic Church to force Galileo to recant his solar centric theory, it's wrong for society to determine who is fit to rule and who shall serve, and at the smallest level, it is wrong for anyone to come along and press their values on another person and say "what I believe in is right because society/authority said so. Now you'll have to believe in whatever we, the majority believe in and accept it as reality, too or else."

My answer is

>>No, I will not. What I do/feel/care is my decision. What you do/feel/care is yours. If you want to kill yourself because I called you fat and "hurt" your feelings, go ahead. If I want to tell someone when they'll die because they paid me money to do so, I will do. Stop regulating others and practice self-discipline on yourself.

Again, I am here. You are there.

[deleted trolling comments - Moderator]

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  #453  
Unread 10-10-2013, 03:32 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Just because we are social creatures doesn't mean that it is necessary to follow the leader.

Morals are principles/structures that are formulated as a code to live but there is no evidence of it being merely social constructs.
Certainly morals are not necessarily dependent on social constructs

Morals in fact are in general defined as:

'Individual standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable to do'

The Morality or otherwise of Predicting Death is a matter for the individual to decide


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  #454  
Unread 10-10-2013, 07:57 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

JA, I don't know where you get your ideas from about the practice of astrology, but much of it is not predictive and never has been. Even St. Vettius of Valens had a lot of material on general character delineations. Again, just because death prediction was acceptable in the past is not an argument for it being ethical today. (Fallacy ad antiquitatem) We can cite so many examples of practices that were condoned in past societies (like Phoenician child sacrifice, throwing Christians to the gladiators, or Indian suttee) that are shunned today.

If you are hoping to try to trip me up, it would be helpful to at least be accurate about what you say about my posts. There's no "Gotcha!" moment for you when you so frequently misquote-- or perhaps simply misunderstand me.

Where did I say I "do no predictive work"? To the contrary, I have repeatedly noted my looking at transits and progressions; and to a lesser extent solar arcs and solar returns. However, I do this in a general way. I sometimes suggest good and bad times, or likely vs. unlikely times for something to happen. However much the chart may "out" itself, one still has choices to make and these choices will effect the outcome of future events.

May28, I got a chuckle out of your statement that you dislike long philosophical posts when you just wrote a bunch on your own. Mandy has answered you better than I could. I am curious though: are you a fan of Ayn Rand? Would you describe yourself as amoral?

It would be helpful to question whether "morality" is a loaded word, such that different people mean different things by it. It is too easy to dismiss "morality" construed as "Victorian morality" or "prudish morality," but less so in moral issues such as child abuse. It is easy to be a cultural relativist at times, but perhaps less so when another society itself shows revolutionary change in rejection of its oppressive social norms.

This is why, JA, morality is never merely a matter of "personal choice." If your morality somehow permitted you to sexually abuse children, would this make it acceptable to the society of which you are a part? If my morality somehow permitted me to steal your belongings, would this make it acceptable to you?

I prefer the term ethics, which deals less with individuals' gut feelings about their "rights" to do what they want, than with the principles whereby a just and compassionate society can self-govern.
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  #455  
Unread 10-10-2013, 10:11 AM
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Re: Avoiding attacks

I had a client earlier this year. Her natal chart (and information about her past life that she volunteered during the interview) showed a very sensitive (impressionable, susceptible) personality.

Her current indications (directions, returns, etc) were calamitous with regard to health issues. I asked her if she had had any health issues in the past. She went into her bedroom and brought out a List.....one thing after another for years.

So I said nothing about what I saw in her chart. I left things as just a normal inquiry that any self-respecting astrologer might make...moved the conversation into other channels. What if she had asked me a direct question about her outlook for health?
I don't know...the question did not come up.

Three weeks later she suffered a major, life-changing stroke.

It would have been of no help whatsoever to have said a word about her health.

Had the interview been with Rambo instead of a highly suggestible woman with a rather high level of anxiety, I might have said something.

I think one of the questions the astrologer can ask in such cases is, "Will what I say to the client be useful or beneficial?"

En boca cerrada no cae mosca.
Which translated roughly means, "Keep your mouth shut and you won't find your foot in it."

***************

Many years ago I read for a woman. We talked about this and that. In closing I mentioned that her chart indicated a traumatic event around her age 12.

She broke into tears and sobbing, and continued sobbing for a half hour or so.
At age 12 she had become ill, was put in hospital...where she was raped by an orderly. The incident was totally repressed, hidden away from herself in some dark corner of the unconscious. My comment let the genie out of the bottle.

She was around 35 at the time. I think what happened was good for her, cathartic. It was time for her to face that ghost.

We can't know what the effects and consequences of our words will be. We can only trust to our best judgment, act out of empathy, and leave the rest to God.

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  #456  
Unread 10-10-2013, 02:32 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Could i post a chart of someone that committed suicide? To help me understand the transits and what might have provoked them?
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  #457  
Unread 10-10-2013, 03:10 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Could i post a chart of someone that committed suicide? To help me understand the transits and what might have provoked them?
You can always post a chart but, I might suggest creating another thread ... maybe in "Read my chart" and placing it there. You should also include the progressions and a solar arc. You might also describe the relationship of the person to you (why you are interested in this information).

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Unread 10-10-2013, 03:18 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Many thanks have posted the suicide chart in read my chart.
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  #459  
Unread 10-10-2013, 09:52 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Moreover, who is the "authority" relevant to this particular thread? I'm not the "authority" figure here. So who is? The professional ethics codes I've cited are posted by voluntary organizations. No one is suggesting hampering one's freedom to think for one's self.

But sometimes the freedom to think for one's self leads to thinking through the probable implications of one's actions, which can wisely lead to voluntary self-limitation. We all have the capacity to say gratuitously mean things in anger, that we know would hurt someone we love. So a sensible person doesn't say those things. Otherwise we're like little children, unable to see beyond our immediate wants.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #460  
Unread 10-11-2013, 12:35 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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This is why, JA, morality is never merely a matter of "personal choice."
Morals in fact are in general defined as:

'Individual standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable to do'

The Morality or otherwise of Predicting Death is a matter for the individual to decide
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  #461  
Unread 10-11-2013, 12:59 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Morals are executed by the individual but an outcome of learned behaviour (social) and subject to social control. Psychological literature on morals embraces research on morals as a reason for depression, in cases, as well as sociopathic tendency.
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Unread 10-11-2013, 02:09 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Morals are executed by the individual but an outcome of learned behaviour (social) and subject to social control. Psychological literature on morals embraces research on morals as a reason for depression, in cases, as well as sociopathic tendency.
Nevertheless, the morality or otherwise of predicting death is a matter for the individual to decide
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  #463  
Unread 10-11-2013, 02:30 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Nevertheless, the morality or otherwise of predicting death is a matter for the individual to decide
Rightly or wrongly, yes.
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Unread 10-11-2013, 03:36 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

But this isn't the issue-- the issues are on what basis a reasonable person would make such a decision; and whether there are larger issues at stake. The question isn't what you can do, but what an ethical person should do, and what society has a right to expect of you.

Our nearby town has a good used book store, and I just picked up a copy of Joanne McEvers, ed. Astrological Counseling, 1990. It has short articles by 10 professional astrologers on how they prepare for a consultation, their objectives, and how they work with clients-- including those who are sobbing in their office.

Two articles of note. Gray Keen gives a list of astrology consultations Gone Badly Wrong, reported by his clients re: their former astrologers who can only be described as malevolent or wacko. (p. 111)

"A client sent to me by referral was extremely upset by his visits to several 'well-known' astrologers-- actually in fear of his life-- because the last astrologer he visited told him he was likely to commit suicide at the end of the following month!"

JA, are you comfortable with this example in your own moral compass?

This refreshingly grounded and candid astrologer notes that most professional astrologers are either self-taught, or were taught by someone who was self-taught. Regardless, he recommends that credible astrologers be well-versed in astrology, and if they diverge into a different personal philosophy it should "stay within the boundaries of scientific and/or rational humanistic credibility."

Yet we have pro-death-prediction amateurs on this thread who seemingly believe all kinds of unfounded conspiracy theories. He continues:

2. Posses an ethical, moral, and professional personal philosophy.

3. Have a deep sense of compassion and responsibility that is not overwehlmed by ego.

Further, recognize one's own fallibility and not divorce oneself from reality.

Elileen Nauman (pp. 270-291) is a medical astrologer with university coursework in biology, homeopathic studies, and EMT training; and is the author of Medical Astrology, a book combining both traditional methods like decumbiture as well as modern techniques. (I highly recommend it.) Many of Nauman's clients are chronically ill patients who seek a medical astrologer because the medical establishment couldn't help them.

She writes that the chronically ill person is emotionally and financially exhausted, in addition to his health problems; generally in a state of despair. "...s/he is willing to seek any kind of alternative treatment, which makes him/her particularly vulnerable and willing to accept anything the medical astrologer says..... Very sick people come to you, desparate for a last chance to halt their invasive illness, and willing to believe anything you utter."

So this is the kind of OPer that JA and some of the others will happily relinquish to the ministrations of the uninformed newbies, sardonic personalities, trolls, and inaccurate amateurs who populate this forum?

Is this moral by anyone's standards?

Nauman notes the fine line between practising medical astrology and practising medicine without a license, which is a serious crime.

Finally, "I will never tell a client shen s/he is going to die. [Emphasis hers.] It has been my experience that a person can 'opt out' of tthis lifetime anywhere along his/her life path." This makes a predictive death-clock horoscope meaningless.

Nauman does a detailed medical history and has the client sign a disclaimer before she will interpret any horoscopes.

Sort of like what we do here, folks, right??????

There are other books by and for astrologers of this nature about the advising process. I wonder how many of them the pro-death prediction members have actually read.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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Unread 10-11-2013, 03:47 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
But this isn't the issue-- the issues are on what basis a reasonable person would make such a decision; and whether there are larger issues at stake. The question isn't what you can do, but what an ethical person should do, and what society has a right to expect of you.

Our nearby town has a good used book store, and I just picked up a copy of Joanne McEvers, ed. Astrological Counseling, 1990. It has short articles by 10 professional astrologers on how they prepare for a consultation, their objectives, and how they work with clients-- including those who are sobbing in their office.

Two articles of note. Gray Keen gives a list of astrology consultations Gone Badly Wrong, reported by his clients re: their former astrologers who can only be described as malevolent or wacko. (p. 111)

"A client sent to me by referral was extremely upset by his visits to several 'well-known' astrologers-- actually in fear of his life-- because the last astrologer he visited told him he was likely to commit suicide at the end of the following month!"

JA, are you comfortable with this example in your own moral compass?

This refreshingly grounded and candid astrologer notes that most professional astrologers are either self-taught, or were taught by someone who was self-taught. Regardless, he recommends that credible astrologers be well-versed in astrology, and if they diverge into a different personal philosophy it should "stay within the boundaries of scientific and/or rational humanistic credibility."

Yet we have pro-death-prediction amateurs on this thread who seemingly believe all kinds of unfounded conspiracy theories. He continues:

2. Posses an ethical, moral, and professional personal philosophy.

3. Have a deep sense of compassion and responsibility that is not overwehlmed by ego.

Further, recognize one's own fallibility and not divorce oneself from reality.

Elileen Nauman (pp. 270-291) is a medical astrologer with university coursework in biology, homeopathic studies, and EMT training; and is the author of Medical Astrology, a book combining both traditional methods like decumbiture as well as modern techniques. (I highly recommend it.) Many of Nauman's clients are chronically ill patients who seek a medical astrologer because the medical establishment couldn't help them.

She writes that the chronically ill person is emotionally and financially exhausted, in addition to his health problems; generally in a state of despair. "...s/he is willing to seek any kind of alternative treatment, which makes him/her particularly vulnerable and willing to accept anything the medical astrologer says..... Very sick people come to you, desparate for a last chance to halt their invasive illness, and willing to believe anything you utter."

So this is the kind of OPer that JA and some of the others will happily relinquish to the ministrations of the uninformed newbies, sardonic personalities, trolls, and inaccurate amateurs who populate this forum?

Is this moral by anyone's standards?

Nauman notes the fine line between practising medical astrology and practising medicine without a license, which is a serious crime.

Finally, "I will never tell a client shen s/he is going to die. [Emphasis hers.] It has been my experience that a person can 'opt out' of tthis lifetime anywhere along his/her life path." This makes a predictive death-clock horoscope meaningless.

Nauman does a detailed medical history and has the client sign a disclaimer before she will interpret any horoscopes.

Sort of like what we do here, folks, right??????

There are other books by and for astrologers of this nature about the advising process. I wonder how many of them the pro-death prediction members have actually read.
I love this! Thank you, Waybread, for your taking the time to write and condense this information fittingly to the purpose. I think this particular post should be made into a sticky.
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  #466  
Unread 10-12-2013, 10:33 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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JA, are you comfortable with this example in your own moral compass?
The bolded comment implies that EVERYONE has their own moral compass
and of course, everyone does have their own moral compass

There are seven billion people on this planet and counting
and it's the business of those seven billion people - and counting -
to decide for themselves the morality or otherwise of predicting death
i.e. the morality of predicting death is an entirely personal opinion
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  #467  
Unread 10-12-2013, 06:11 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

JA, my recent question to you was a personal question about your personal morality, not about what you think generically. Shall I take your latest as side-stepping my question?
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Unread 10-12-2013, 06:20 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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JA, my recent question to you was a personal question about your personal morality, not about what you think generically. Shall I take your latest as side-stepping my question?
The discussion involves the question of the morality of predicting death.
I have replied that everyone has their own personal moral compass
and furthermore, given there are seven billion people on this planet and counting
and it's the business of those seven billion people - and counting -
to decide for themselves the morality or otherwise of predicting death

i.e. the morality of predicting death is an entirely personal opinion
THEN CLEARLY quite obviously there are many moral compasses

IF you are seeking to argue for the sake of arguing then my response is as above
and
IF you are NOT seeking to argue for the sake of arguing then my response is as above also in any event

My comment is clear
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Your comment is perfectly clear, but doesn't answer my question. I am asking about your own personal morality. Of course, you don't have to answer it. I just notice the side-step.
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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Unread 10-13-2013, 08:46 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

I don't mean to take this thread off path but, I just finished reading a book that was ... hmmm ... just can't find the right words for it.

It's a woman writing about her Dad and the stroke that debilitated him and how her mother cared for her dad. Her dad had a pacemaker implanted after a stroke and while it kept his heart beating the rest of his body and mind was apparently disintegrating. The daughter was very outspoken (IMHO) about wanting to turn the pacemaker off (this was unsettling to me but, it may not be to others).

The book hits many points about how callous people that we depend on can be as we near the end of our lives. And while the medical profession can be clothed with the aura of ethics of doing no harm, in truth .. many now serve the interests of corporations selling medical devices and filling hospital beds.

This is the other side of the argument for vulnerable people ... sometimes caretakers need to know when they can continue with their lives so that they are not pushed to do horrible things with the people that they are caring for.

The book is Knocking on Heaven's Door, The Path to a Better Way of Death by Katy Butler.

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Unread 10-13-2013, 09:31 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Your comment is perfectly clear,
Excellent
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
....but doesn't answer my question. I am asking about your own personal morality. Of course, you don't have to answer it. I just notice the side-step.
Much of this thread has been devoted to arguments between yourself and Paul regarding your own personal opinions. Those arguments clearly show the futility of arguing over personal opinions. The thread title does not require anyone to state their personal opinion. The Morality of Predicting Death is clearly a personal opinion.
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Unread 10-13-2013, 09:35 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marinka View Post
I don't mean to take this thread off path but, I just finished reading a book that was ... hmmm ... just can't find the right words for it.

It's a woman writing about her Dad and the stroke that debilitated him and how her mother cared for her dad. Her dad had a pacemaker implanted after a stroke and while it kept his heart beating the rest of his body and mind was apparently disintegrating. The daughter was very outspoken (IMHO) about wanting to turn the pacemaker off (this was unsettling to me but, it may not be to others).

The book hits many points about how callous people that we depend on can be as we near the end of our lives. And while the medical profession can be clothed with the aura of ethics of doing no harm, in truth .. many now serve the interests of corporations selling medical devices and filling hospital beds.

This is the other side of the argument for vulnerable people ... sometimes caretakers need to know when they can continue with their lives so that they are not pushed to do horrible things with the people that they are caring for.

The book is Knocking on Heaven's Door, The Path to a Better Way of Death by Katy Butler.

Important therefore to be aware of the option of making 'A Living Will' http://www.nolo.com/legal-encycloped...ving-will.html

'....Making a living will can bring peace of mind to you and to your loved ones because it explains what kind of medical care you want to receive when you cannot speak for yourself. Almost anyone can make a living will, but doing so may be most useful for those who are facing incapacity or for those who have very strong opinions about what kind of care they receive (or don稚 receive).....'
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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Unread 10-13-2013, 09:46 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Important therefore to be aware of the option of making 'A Living Will' http://www.nolo.com/legal-encycloped...ving-will.html

'....Making a living will can bring peace of mind to you and to your loved ones because it explains what kind of medical care you want to receive when you cannot speak for yourself. Almost anyone can make a living will, but doing so may be most useful for those who are facing incapacity or for those who have very strong opinions about what kind of care they receive (or don稚 receive).....'


The living will is a request for the type of care you want to receive - it is not a mandate for the person that has to carry it out. It also does not spell out all the possible combinations of issues and what you want done in each of those cases. To add confusion, doctors may disagree on the best course of care with the GP siding on the "simple" and the surgeon on the "advanced". As the book points out, many of the many of the possible side effects for surgery in older people are memory issues (brain fog) and I believe ex-President Clinton pointed this out after his heart surgery.
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Unread 10-13-2013, 09:50 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Very touching story, Marinka. This book is well-reviewed.

But it illustrates why anyone with definite ideas about how they want to die in the event of a lingering illness should write a living will and put their end-of-life wishes in writing (preferably notarized or via a lawyer) so that there is no possibility of mistaking them. They should give copies to their primary care physician, specialists, and next-of-kin. They should discuss with their doctor/s the range of issues for probable outcomes if they have a debilitating illness late in life. The system isn't perfect, but it is better than being unable to speak due to a severe stroke, leaving no instructions other than non-binding verbal generalities.

Unfortunately, the "quality of care" given in end-of-life discussions on this forum leaves far more to be desired than the great majority of doctors manifest. I am shocked at how little information some chart readers are willing to go on. Thread links available upon request, with full analysis. There are horror stories out there in the professional consulting world, as well, about astrological fortune-tellers who are wrong, brutally insensitive, or outright fraudsters. These are not the kind of people I would want hanging around me or my loved ones near the end of life.

I take your point about care-takers "getting on with their lives"-- but only up to a point. Is looking after an extremely ill parent somehow outside of one's life? Is it a mere digression on the path to something more important? Or is it what many loving adult children are called to do by choice?

Unfortunately in the US, with its brilliant health-care system, malpractice insurance for doctors is sky-high, influencing some of them to take extraordinary steps to prolong life; because for every doctor who is OK with pulling the plug, there are family members and lawyers out there ready to sue them for malpractice.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 10-13-2013 at 09:58 PM.
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Unread 10-13-2013, 09:54 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Sorry, JA-- trying to personalize this is never been where my arguments are coming from, till just recently when I became very curious about your personal sense of morality. A closely-guarded secret, apparently.

Morality is not a matter of personal choice in many, many matters where society takes an interest.

My concern has always been with the welfare of vulnerable people. To a lesser extent, my concern is with astrology's reputation--already shaky, liable to suffer further.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 10-13-2013 at 10:01 PM.
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