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  #426  
Unread 10-09-2013, 09:34 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by Marinka View Post
As I noted in a previous post

---

"I respectfully ask, where is your evidence that this has happened?"

----
Is there any evidence?

I can see your stand and I respect it but, it seems to me that conclusions are being made on "whatifs, maybes, and possibilities".

Well, aren't yours? I posted one example, above, from the Indian media, of an Indian astrologer who predicted his own timing and manner death. This prospect so upset him that he committed suicide in advance of his due-date.

Surely this says to you (a) that a death prediction even by a pro is supect. If Vedic death prediction actually worked, suicide would have been impossible. And (b) even a society with a profound religious belief in reincarnation will have individual members who fear natural death to commit suicide. (contra the cultural relativism argument.)

I cited above an example of a young poster who was terrified because an astrologer "friend" told the poster his mother would probably die because his progressed moon moved into the 8th house. I no longer recall the details or I might search and link it. He just couldn't let go of the idea that this prediction might be valid.

A distressed young woman from eastern Europe (where dire fortune-telling may be more common) posted in distress because an "astrologer" or fortune-teller (I wasn't clear which) told her she would die by suicide. This young woman said that she was, in fact, feeling suicidal.

But this is a misleading question, because nobody will return to this forum to report back about their subsequent demise. Many horary questions give no feedback. Many suggest that the horary astrologers were wrong. "No, I didn't find the keys where you said they should be, but I'll keep looking."

I recall another thread, where a woman was in a late-stage of cancer, and she eventually went to the hospital for what she believed would be her final journey. She was asking for medical astrology advice about natural health remedies (not a death prediction). About the best we could do was be emotionally supportive. Then her posts stopped.

Mercifully the number of death prediction requests so far have been low, and Tim already bans admittedly suicidal posters.... that is, when he's on line to catch them. (I think this isn't such a hot idea, BTW, because you can direct such people to suicide hot-lines, suggest United Way agencies with low-cost professional counseling services, keep them talking, &c.)

We often see threads by people who are upset, lonely, confused, in poor health, and very young. Significant self-esteem problems are extremely common. So we know the vulnerable ones are out here.

Unknowns abound in ethical decision-making. A given treatment may have some potential benefits as well as potential risks. They've worked out how to make decisions under such circumstances. Professional medical ethicists and end-of-life professionals have protocols on how to deal with these unknowns.

They never come on the side of "Indulge your hobby, and 'the devil take the hindmost.'"

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Last edited by waybread; 10-09-2013 at 09:37 PM.
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  #427  
Unread 10-09-2013, 09:45 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Oh, JA-- I just love it when you try to trip me up like this. Like a soccer goalie catching a nice pop fly ball floating into his arms, I can take these posts all day. And often need to. Maybe work on your corner kick?

I do not advocate post-dicting death. Never. But to the extent that death-clock astrology fascinates some people, I have yet to see any harm coming from learning the predictive techniques retrospectively; i. e., through a "historical" analysis of the deceased.

But if you know of any harm, please tell me about it.

I never recommended that anyone practice their post-dictive skills in order to predict death for living people.

I could say volumes about fastlane69's thread, though not in a way that would validate your apparent thirst for death prediction. Let's just say that it is one individual and that the thread as a whole doesn't speak well for the consistency of horary chart readings amongst this forum community.

Surely you see a difference between the living and the dead?
Clearly unaware of the obvious connection between
astrological death clock prediction
and
astrological death clock post-diction

How useful to say to a deceased client that they are already dead
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  #428  
Unread 10-09-2013, 09:49 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Well, aren't yours? I posted one example, above, from the Indian media, of an Indian astrologer who predicted his own timing and manner death. This prospect so upset him that he committed suicide in advance of his due-date.

Surely this says to you (a) that a death prediction even by a pro is supect. If Vedic death prediction actually worked, suicide would have been impossible. And (b) even a society with a profound religious belief in reincarnation will have individual members who fear natural death to commit suicide. (contra the cultural relativism argument.)

I cited above an example of a young poster who was terrified because an astrologer "friend" told the poster his mother would probably die because his progressed moon moved into the 8th house. I no longer recall the details or I might search and link it. He just couldn't let go of the idea that this prediction might be valid.

A distressed young woman from eastern Europe (where dire fortune-telling may be more common) posted in distress because an "astrologer" or fortune-teller (I wasn't clear which) told her she would die by suicide. This young woman said that she was, in fact, feeling suicidal.

But this is a misleading question, because nobody will return to this forum to report back about their subsequent demise. Many horary questions give no feedback. Many suggest that the horary astrologers were wrong. "No, I didn't find the keys where you said they should be, but I'll keep looking."

I recall another thread, where a woman was in a late-stage of cancer, and she eventually went to the hospital for what she believed would be her final journey. She was asking for medical astrology advice about natural health remedies (not a death prediction). About the best we could do was be emotionally supportive. Then her posts stopped.

Mercifully the number of death prediction requests so far have been low, and Tim already bans admittedly suicidal posters.... that is, when he's on line to catch them. (I think this isn't such a hot idea, BTW, because you can direct such people to suicide hot-lines, suggest United Way agencies with low-cost professional counseling services, keep them talking, &c.)

We often see threads by people who are upset, lonely, confused, in poor health, and very young. Significant self-esteem problems are extremely common. So we know the vulnerable ones are out here.

Unknowns abound in ethical decision-making. A given treatment may have some potential benefits as well as potential risks. They've worked out how to make decisions under such circumstances. Professional medical ethicists and end-of-life professionals have protocols on how to deal with these unknowns.

They never come on the side of "Indulge your hobby, and 'the devil take the hindmost.'"
Protesting against astrological death clock prediction
while advocating astrological relationship death clock prediction
is clearly hypocritical and ignores potential harm to these 'lonely, confused people' above mentioned who also seek relationship potential prediction
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  #429  
Unread 10-09-2013, 10:20 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

I posted one example, above, from the Indian media, of an Indian astrologer who predicted his own timing and manner death. This prospect so upset him that he committed suicide in advance of his due-date.

I cited above an example of a young poster who was terrified because an astrologer "friend" told the poster his mother would probably die because his progressed moon moved into the 8th house. I no longer recall the details or I might search and link it. He just couldn't let go of the idea that this prediction might be valid.

A distressed young woman from eastern Europe (where dire fortune-telling may be more common) posted in distress because an "astrologer" or fortune-teller (I wasn't clear which) told her she would die by suicide. This young woman said that she was, in fact, feeling suicidal.

I recall another thread, where a woman was in a late-stage of cancer, and she eventually went to the hospital for what she believed would be her final journey. She was asking for medical astrology advice about natural health remedies (not a death prediction). About the best we could do was be emotionally supportive. Then her posts stopped.

I'm a bit confused ... none of these appear to be predictions from this site or from any other internet site.

Do you have any that originated from this site?
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  #430  
Unread 10-09-2013, 10:21 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Protesting against astrological death clock prediction
while advocating astrological relationship death clock prediction
is clearly hypocritical and ignores potential harm to these 'lonely, confused people' above mentioned who also seek relationship potential prediction
Say what? This doesn't compute. Where did I advocate "astrological relationship death clock prediction?
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 10-10-2013 at 07:02 AM.
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  #431  
Unread 10-09-2013, 10:25 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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I'm a bit confused ... none of these appear to be predictions from this site or from any other internet site.

Do you have any that originated from this site?
The examples are all from this site, other than the Indian astrologer example which I gleaned from a web search.

Marinka, I also have to say, isn't there a compassionate common-sense factor at work here? You seem to be grasping at straws. How do you trade-off your apparently keen desire to predict death for people with all of the evidence beyond this site that this isn't an ethically sound idea?
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #432  
Unread 10-09-2013, 10:30 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
The examples are all from this site, other than the Indian astrologer example which I gleaned from a web search.

Marinka, I also have to say, isn't there a compassionate common-sense factor at work here? You seem to be grasping at straws. How do you trade-off your apparently keen desire to predict death for people with all of the evidence beyond this site that this isn't an ethically sound idea?


Hmm.... those examples you provided (while interesting) are not from people getting death predictions on this site .. are they? It seems that they may have come to this site after but, the predictions originated (if they are even true) from someplace else.

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  #433  
Unread 10-09-2013, 10:32 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Say what? This doesn't compute. Where did I advocate "astrological relationship death clock prediction? Whatever that might possibly mean. Tell me, and we'll both know. I am beginning to wonder if you actually read what I write, because you don't seem to understand it.

You have another thread on relationships. Maybe that is the place to post about what you thought I meant yet didn't say but could have implied yet somehow didn't actually post yet could have done so, such that I must have meant something other than what I intended.....
Earlier on this thread, Paul described a devastating prediction given concerning a relationship.

It seems there is some difficulty understanding that astrological death clock prediction
is on a par with astrological relationship death clock prediction
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  #434  
Unread 10-09-2013, 10:55 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by Marinka View Post
So .... may I make a seasonable assumption that you personally know of no one that has been hurt by this?
I know someone who has been subject to considerable distress by astrological death prediction. Yes it was from this site. What does that prove for you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marinka View Post
I understand where you are coming from Mandy (or I think I do) ... you are either in or will shortly be in a profession that is greatly concerned with the mental well-being of their clients and you take that to heart.
Wrong. I do not take the wellbeing of people seriously because it is my job to do so. I take the wellbeing of people seriously because it is a matter of principle and compassionate perspective.

Quote:
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Having said that, I think many of your objections should be aimed at the internet in general and how people interact socially on it. Consider for example .. Facebook and the role (if any) it had with the recent teenage suicides because of teenagers posting comments like "Kill yourself" on another teens' timeline. Facebook didn't get banned and they are still studying the appropriate action they should take. And, for even more horrors, some people were still posting not so nice comments after the teen's suicide. And, pictures of the teen that committed suicide were showing up in ads (one of facebook's newer features where an image of you gets put into ads).
I was waiting for you to expand this clear and specific issue that is on the table to the internet at large. I will not entertain the externalising of personal responsibility. Discussion is astrological death prediction.




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  #435  
Unread 10-09-2013, 11:02 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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....Discussion is astrological death prediction.
Discussion as stated on this thread is 'Morality of Predicting Death?'

NOT whether astrological death clock prediction should be banned
NOR whether astrological death clock prediction should NOT be banned

The discussion is the Morality or otherwise - that is all
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  #436  
Unread 10-09-2013, 11:09 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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I know someone who has been subject to considerable distress by astrological death prediction. Yes it was from this site. What does that prove for you?
Might I request a link to the thread?

Also, did they lodge a complaint with the moderators?
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  #437  
Unread 10-09-2013, 11:11 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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I'm a bit confused ... none of these appear to be predictions from this site or from any other internet site.

Do you have any that originated from this site?
To clarify your confusion, the topic of discussion is not the site. The topic is morality, a personal responsibility.

Last edited by Mandy; 10-09-2013 at 11:14 PM.
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  #438  
Unread 10-09-2013, 11:13 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Might I request a link to the thread?

Also, did they lodge a complaint with the moderators?
Marinka, the answers to these questions are none of your business and completely beside the topic of discussion.

Morality of Predicting Death?
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  #439  
Unread 10-09-2013, 11:22 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Marinka, the answers to these questions are none of your business and completely beside the topic of discussion.

Morality of Predicting Death?

Ok ... I guess from your answer I can only conclude that you have no proof that people have been harmed from this site through death prediction ...
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  #440  
Unread 10-09-2013, 11:36 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Ok ... I guess from your answer I can only conclude that you have no proof that people have been harmed from this site through death prediction ...
You do not need to guess since my answer was clear. It stated that who the person is and what their situation is.

Secondly, as mentioned previously and also in the title, the site name has nothing to do with the discussion. Morality is a personal and professional compass.

[deleted comments that could be considered attacking - Moderator]

Last edited by wilsontc; 10-10-2013 at 03:36 PM.
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  #441  
Unread 10-09-2013, 11:47 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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What is your point here, Marinka? That this site is somehow isolated from the larger world? That would be an unsustainable position.
Obviously, since moderators ARE able to moderate this site
BUT moderators of this site are totally unable to moderate 'the larger world' you mention
THEN
clearly, this site IS separate regarding moderation of it
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  #442  
Unread 10-09-2013, 11:53 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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The examples are all from this site, other than the Indian astrologer example which I gleaned from a web search.

Marinka, I also have to say, isn't there a compassionate common-sense factor at work here? You seem to be grasping at straws. How do you trade-off your apparently keen desire to predict death for people with all of the evidence beyond this site that this isn't an ethically sound idea?
Yet there is no apparent problem with supporting death clock post-diction
which is clearly of value as a supportive method of honing actual death clock pre-diction
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  #443  
Unread 10-10-2013, 12:00 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Ok ... I guess from your answer I can only conclude that you have no proof that people have been harmed from this site through death prediction ...
Marinka, as I posted above, there has been little death prediction on this forum up to now, thanks in large part to modern astrologers' sensible decision that it is a Really Bad Idea. Now we have people on this forum who think that professional astrologers' techniques from Days of Yore are entirely transferable to today's Internet astrological forums, and given the moderators' current "wait and see" position, this situation may well change.

In a future post or thread I will give Eileen Nauman's take on ethical considerations about vulnerable clients. She is the author of Medical Astrology, and has consulted with many clients over a long career, and she flatly states that death prediction is a Really Bad Idea. The one modern astrologer to write on death prediction badly misjudged his own manner and timing of death. (He's deceased so we know for certain.)

Are these the sorts of issues with which you have truly come to grips?

Let me give you an analogy. I live on a road in a semi-rural neighbourhood with a stop sign at the bottom of the hill where my road meets the highway. Before we moved in, our realtor warned us about this intersection when it's icy. Previously one winter a woman braked for the stop sign, but slid through and was killed by an oncoming vehicle. However, I don't know who she was. To me, she's sort of hearsay.

I stop at the stop sign and look both ways. Anyone else whom I've driven with stops at the stop sign. But why? OK, so there's a a blind curve to the right with traffice often exceeding the 80k speed limit, but why stop if the RCMP aren't waiting to give a ticket? I've never been hit, nobody I know personally has ever been hit.

So are stop signs up to individual drivers' discretion, in your opinion? Why shouldn't I just drive through it any time I want to? Would it matter if I had passengers who might be really apprehensive about that oncoming motorcycle?

Ethics go way, way beyond your personal desire to predict death for people, Marinka, regardless of the larger impact. What makes you believe otherwise? How would you answer the concern that your stand is amoral?
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 10-10-2013 at 12:03 AM.
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Unread 10-10-2013, 12:08 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Discussion as stated on this thread is 'Morality of Predicting Death?'

NOT whether astrological death clock prediction should be banned
NOR whether astrological death clock prediction should NOT be banned

The discussion is the Morality or otherwise - that is all

JA - the voice of reason.

The thread seems to have taken a detour around post # 326 - maybe it's time to put it back on course.

So ----where were we back around Post 324 ...
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  #445  
Unread 10-10-2013, 12:08 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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May28, all of your points have been addressed-- frequently-- by Mandy, me, and a few other posters at the beginning of this thread. Although I do not think death prediction is moral, it is particularly troublesome on an Internet forum like this one where oftentimes you do not know the querent's age, mental and physical health status, veracity, or motives. Third party queries raise a whole other level of ethical concerns.

This thread isn't about whether you or another forum member fears death. I have a comfortable metaphysical view about death myself, but we've all known people who don't have this. You have no idea whether an anonymous poster on an internet forum might be deathly (!) afraid of death, and what an insensitive prediction might do to her-- regardless of whether it is correct or incorrect.

You do not write as though you have had personal contact with death and dying. Until you have some experience with your own sense of extreme grief and loss, witnessed at close-hand the physical deterioration attendant on a lingering death, seen the physical pain involved in a severe injury, and experienced the financial issues that often ensue, I take your comments as coming from abstraction.
First off, I have read all the posts on here and most of it is long, drawn out, and excessively repetitive abstract philosophical mumbo jumble that deflects answering the question in the most simple and direct manner possible. I am least interested in those who are so fixated on their own morality that they will argue their point to wear down the oppositional views as if their view is the only with merit and right, while the opposing views are evil and wrong. This thread reeks of holier than thou coming from you.

I haven't been coming onto the forums for as long as you and my observations have not been from the most orthodox methods and neither have my ways of expressing myself. However, I am a person who does have strong opinions and I freely make my assertions based on good faith- simply put, I express whatever I think out there and let others think/do/feel/react however they want. I could care less as I am only in control of myself and I have little interest in monitoring others nor do I want to censor them, either.

Your wrongful assertion from my laissez-faire tone about death and such is that I never had personal contact from death and dying could not be more wrong.

I've mentioned in many posts that I was born because my parents knew my brother was dying. My parents were heavily in debt supporting my dying brother as the hospital bills accumulated. They had to sell everything they had, their emotional capacities were maxed out and resulted in dropping me off to be raised mostly by my granny. I was the burden they wanted because they had no idea how to handle their firstborn's inevitable death and yet were not very capable of bonding together as a couple nor served to be protective parents towards their newborn. My father got into astrology and kept looking for answers to make sense to him as no medical nor scientific reason could suffice anymore. If only my parents could have found an astrologer who could predict my brother's death to ease them instead of them being hopeful only for it to be extinguished in such a tragic way. I wasn't even 5 when my older brother died in the dark and I was sitting next to him as he struggling to breathe and I felt life leave him.

That is not the only experience I've had with death and the dying. That was just my first one. At 10, I was the first one find that my grandfather had died in his sleep while the rest of the family had a gathering outside. I put blankets over him. At 15, I ran to go see a friend at his house and found that he had hung himself while his family had gone to the grocery store. I held his hand and ran away. Eventually I will have to deal with my parents' death but I don't want to think about that

I know what death is. I've felt its presence next to me. I also know that one day, I will feel its presence take me, as it took other lives, as it will continue to take more lives. It's the reality. I just find it to be completely cruel and irrational of people and society to enforce so much more emotional investment in something that is inevitable/inescapable and encourage the "sacred" pomp and circumstances to prolong the dreadful emotional and psychological pains by glorying death as if it's something special and needs to be catered to.


Like I said, there's nothing special about death. Life is so short and should be endeared to be special and celebrated. Making special offerings and respect to death DOES NOTHING for the dead nor does flattery spares death from one day visiting you. What is the harm in knowing when that day will come? If anything, it may give peace of mind and offer ease to those who have not enjoyed life and have been waiting for that one visit.

So, no, my previous post was not from abstraction as so much of my acceptance of an inescapable reality. I just don't believe in adding more emotional baggages than necessary.

Last edited by may28gemini; 10-10-2013 at 12:14 AM.
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Unread 10-10-2013, 12:09 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Yet there is no apparent problem with supporting death clock post-diction
which is clearly of value as a supportive method of honing actual death clock pre-diction
I just said above that I do not advocate death post-diction. Changing the word to "supporting" doesn't alter anything.

My point really and truly is that I would be happy if this death-talk all went away. We can more profitably engage in trying to help people with all sorts of other issues. However, I have yet to see actual harm done through analysis of death charts of deceased people. Are you aware of any contrary examples?

Sometimes people like to analyse past events. This doesn't mean that they use them to predict the future.
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

May28, nobody denies that death is an unescapable reality. That is not at issue here. Surely you can understand that a dying person's painful experience or a loved one's dying family member is different than this platitude.

I regret the painful experiences you and your family experienced surrounding death. But do trust me, as someone surrounded by seniors, that there is more to get to beyond glib platitudes. Oh, like compassion, for instance.
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Sometimes people like to analyse past events.
One wonders why people like to analyse past events
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This doesn't mean that they use them to predict the future.
Just to pass the time then presumably, until the future happens
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Unread 10-10-2013, 12:21 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Compassion is not morality but it unproductive as it does nothing except waste time and energy "feeling" for others when you have no idea how that person actually feel. My pains are not your pains. Your pains are not mine. We're NOT one. You are there. I am here.

It is immoral to pressure others to feel/care/think something they don't and it's also immoral try to control how others feel/care/think after any social/business interaction/transaction has happened.
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Unread 10-10-2013, 01:14 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Compassion is not morality but it unproductive as it does nothing except waste time and energy "feeling" for others when you have no idea how that person actually feel. My pains are not your pains. Your pains are not mine. We're NOT one. You are there. I am here.

It is immoral to pressure others to feel/care/think something they don't and it's also immoral try to control how others feel/care/think after any social/business interaction/transaction has happened.
Actually May28 morals are social constructions. Compassion may be not part of your moral compass but doing not to others as I would not enjoy done to myself is part of mine. People do not live and behave in vacuum but are part of a whole. Several avenues of science show this.

It is immoral to pressure others to feel/care/think something they would rather not, but social influence is a powerful form of pressure on an individual (see Asch; Milgram; Turner). A main theme so far has been the sizeable grey area which denotes the uncontrolled practice of astrology, unlike other professions, which have access to people, including the vulnerable. The point has been, thus, it is immoral to make such transactions, sell a product, to mentally unstable people who have been socially influenced or are easily manipulated. A further reference has been that since an internet forum is not a place where one can discern whether they are doing a first, second, or third person consultation or the age/state of a member, it is immoral to not care about this far-reaching consideration and to proceeed regardless. In my opinion such behaviour seems opportunistic and irresponsible.

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