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  #376  
Unread 10-08-2013, 01:53 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Regardless of your motive and slight message-creep (i.e., shift) this sounds like agreement.

Three big factors:

1. The moderators have no way of knowing whether a horoscope reader knows what s/he's doing. As per your statements:



2. The moderators have no way of assessing the age, mental health, veracity, or emotional vulnerability of the OPer. This could be a suicidal minor posting a horary question, giving no indication of identity or circumstances.

3. Indications to the contrary, the moderators are not omnisicent, omnipresent, omnipotent, &c. It is way too big an expectation to assume they are capable of moderating the death prediction threads case-by-case 24/7 Occasionally they go off line, sleep, eat, go shopping, &c.

Therefore, you are on record as favouring the banning of death predictions-- setting aside momentarily other issues that my 3 points do not address.

This is consistent with your earlier statements:

Quote:
"Do I really need to KEEP saying I am all for advocating a ban on death prediciton on forums?"

Quote:
"You also focus on online forums no matter how many times I say that I am all for a ban on death prediction for forums."

Quote:
"I am not arguing that people have a 'right' to predict death willy nillly..."

Quote:
"I do not think astrology is a science nor astrologers infallible... "

Real simple.


I think what the moderators do now is fine. It appears to me that you want to ban death prediction because it is against your beliefs or what you think is right...

As I've said from the beginning, if you are not involved in it and it doesn't hurt anyone outside of that transaction, why is there a need for you to regulate it.


[deleted possibly trolling questions by request - Moderator]


Last edited by wilsontc; 10-08-2013 at 05:48 AM.
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  #377  
Unread 10-08-2013, 06:34 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Marinka, one point I've made repeatedly is the ethical principle shared throughout developed societies, of protecting their most vulnerable members. Possibly this is observed less manifestly than idealistically, but a duty of care is nevertheless the objective.

Don't you imagine that insensitive, inexperienced chart-readers could hurt vulnerable people within the chart reading? Do you just turn a blind eye, shrugging that we have no duty beyond our own body and personal concerns? And by analogy, maybe you won't harm anyone by speeding through a red light, but maybe you will. Should your community take that risk? And can it realistically exempt you from a law it makes to protect people crossing the street? Or does it have to set one traffic law for everybody?

Yes, you are your brother's keeper.

Your attitude sounds almost anti-social to me. I don't accuse you of this, but ask, can you explain why it's not? The definitions vary, but basically it means behaving in ways that can negatively impact on other people, with no regard for the impacts and their consequences.

What about the possibility that a deeply depressed teenager asks for a horary death prediction, but you don't know this about the person: all you see is the question and the chart? Or many other problematic examples I could suggest.

Do you feel you have any duty beyond satisfying your own intellectual curiosity? Yet this is an illusion. How can you get the feedback enabling you to learn from your possible errors in interpretation? On another thread, a 50 year-old man wonders if he will live past 80. If he lives that long, 30+ years later, the feedback will be meaningless. If he doesn't live long, he will not return to tell you.

If your objective is to learn death prediction techniques, you don't need to practice on living people who could get harmed out of your advice. New medical students, after all, learn anatomy on cadavers, not living patients.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour
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  #378  
Unread 10-08-2013, 06:37 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
In that case, given the circumstances outlined, then ANY astrological comment could be outlawed for the same reasons FROM ANY AND ALL ASTROLOGICAL FORUMS or do you view this as yet another allegedly 'slippery slope'
JA, how many times do I need to address this? I am not refering to "any and all" astrological comments. [deleted joking comments which may be misinterpreted - Moderator]
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Last edited by wilsontc; 10-08-2013 at 06:38 PM.
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  #379  
Unread 10-08-2013, 06:53 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Waybread

[deleted possibly trolling question - Moderator]

I am not on record as voting for a ban on death prediction as you're trying to insinuate. All my posts fall under the umbrella of the topic the OP referred to - this is not a discussion about rule changes.

I am on record as saying were I a moderator I would probably ban it for practical reasons. But I am not. Therefore my practical concerns may not apply for the moderators here.

Please do not try to turn the context of my posts into something which was never discussed here.

If you wish to campaign for rule changes, I suggest a new thread. Certainly do not assume that replies here pertain to a context of wanting rules changed here because for clarity mine do not, so I would appreciate if you wouldn't imply they are. They are statements of what I would do - not what I want others to do.

Last edited by wilsontc; 10-08-2013 at 06:39 PM.
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  #380  
Unread 10-08-2013, 09:02 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
In that case, given the circumstances outlined, then ANY astrological comment could be outlawed for the same reasons FROM ANY AND ALL ASTROLOGICAL FORUMS or do you view this as yet another allegedly 'slippery slope'
I said this previously but it just sank in the sea of arguments. I seriously thought very much equal to the entire forum needed to shut down and the entire history and practice of astrology should be abandoned and removed, according to some people's belief as if Astrology only as good as low class psychology. I really feel in great extend that all the books I collected in my library and all the hard working and talented predictive astrologers are now being like fool in some people's standard. To some extend including the sponsors of our forum...As I said many times before, to me a great insult to astrologers in large.

However this post is about morality on death prediction. Along the argument, it sounds like all predictive works don't work.
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  #381  
Unread 10-08-2013, 10:25 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caprising View Post
Am I the only one who suspects that this whole thread was started in an effort to save the senior moderators from having to shoulder responsibility when it comes to death predictions on this forum?...I wouldn't want that responsibility myself, yet would expect a more open honest modus operandi!....Someone tell me that I'm wrong ...please!
Apparently, you are not the only one sharing this paranoia.
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  #382  
Unread 10-08-2013, 01:33 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caprising View Post
Am I the only one who suspects that this whole thread was started in an effort to save the senior moderators from having to shoulder responsibility when it comes to death predictions on this forum?...I wouldn't want that responsibility myself, yet would expect a more open honest modus operandi!....Someone tell me that I'm wrong ...please!
If that were so, then the OP would have to have colluded with moderators and that's quite an inference

Let's study the OP's opening remarks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Venus View Post
Do you think it is morally acceptable to predict death for a client? (assuming that they asked)

If your answer is no because of the uncertainty of death, would your answer be the same if you found a surefire technique?

Imagine that you stumbled across something in the chart of a loved one that indicated a very likely time for their death. What would you do with this information? Would you tell the person or keep it to yourself?

How would you refrain from letting that "date" worry you, especially if you kept it to yourself?
The OP is clearly concerned at the effect on the astrologer
of 'knowing a date/being aware of a likely time of occurrence of the death of a client'
and that astrologers ability to keep that knowledge to themselves

- given that obviously the knowledge could 'worry' that astrologer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Venus View Post
Yes i meant predicting time of death :P

I suppose it does help to know that i very well could be wrong. I've been studying 7 years and it jumped right out at me with a scream but i'm certainly no expert.

I suppose it would feel different to predict a strangers death than a loved ones, but morally, shouldn't those two be treated with the same apprehension?
Phoenix Venus is questioning whether the prediction of a strangers death is subject to a different moral code
in contrast to that of a loved one

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Venus View Post
The problem is not one of wanting to know. The problem is what to do with the information when you DO know. (though i suppose i could make a horary about whether i am right.. ha)
Seems to me Phoenix Venus is simply mulling over the moral implications of 'death clock prediction' and seeks answers via discussion with forum members - nothing wrong with that.

Or is it possible that even discussion of moral implications is now being branded as somehow 'wrong'
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  #383  
Unread 10-08-2013, 01:52 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

There seems to be an agenda to mock astrology with pseudo ethical posts.


On the point of ethics, cooking patients brains with pharmacological drugs

or electricity and lobotomy as a result of theory, has caused more suffering than any,

"amateur" astrologer getting a prediction wrong or using an ascendant at 29 degrees.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCUmINGae44

Further astrology is more ethical in respect of the human mind than the limited sexual

model of Freud and the psychotherapy school.


A self employed astrologer perhaps earns a crust by reputation on the ability to

make more correct predictions than wrong ones.

Unless our tongues are abusive by a failure of tact and common sense.



Last edited by ptolemy; 10-08-2013 at 02:35 PM.
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  #384  
Unread 10-08-2013, 02:49 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Marinka, one point I've made repeatedly is the ethical principle shared throughout developed societies, of protecting their most vulnerable members. Possibly this is observed less manifestly than idealistically, but a duty of care is nevertheless the objective.


Protecting the vulnerable ... this seems to run through your threads frequently.

How would you define someone that is vulnerable? I personally would consider someone under the age of 18 a child and therefore, vulnerable. If someone has a handicap that disallows them from the types of thought processes most people are capable of -- I would also consider that vulnerable. These are only two, I'm sure there are others.

But, you seem to be implying (IMO) that the capable people with able thought processes that frequent this site need to be protected. These people have the thought processes to protect themselves and don't need to have someone else do it for them. I personally would resent someone deciding for me "what answers I am capable of hearing". I'm an adult and that means taking responsibility for myself and making my own decisions (good or bad).

This is not to say that the people coming to this site (or others like it) should be treated with an iron glove. All interaction with other people should be done with the realization that a carelessly chosen word or a lack of gentleness in a reply could cause confusion, concern and a host of other issues in the questioner.

As I've stated, if this is not hurting anyone outside the transaction, why regulate it? Issues are like this can (as others have mentioned) cascade into all predictions. This is why free governments always take due caution when dealing with any "limiting regulations" especially when it comes to "free speech". That's why there is always an invisible line in the sand that you take caution not to cross.

Astrology is all about predicting ...
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  #385  
Unread 10-08-2013, 04:29 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
JA at some level we can distinguish people's questions from the people. At another level a question is an expression of a person, and as such it could come from ignorance of its implications, morality in a wider sphere, or other issues.

In any situation involving an expert and a client, doctor-patient, or comparable information/power differential, the onus is always upon the person claiming the greater expertise-- not on the person asking the question.

This is kind of Applied Ethics 101, if not the remedial class.
Some remedial class Latin to ponder
Non semper ea sunt quae videntur
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  #386  
Unread 10-08-2013, 07:14 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_ View Post
Waybread

[deleted possibly trolling question - Moderator]

I am not on record as voting for a ban on death prediction as you're trying to insinuate. All my posts fall under the umbrella of the topic the OP referred to - this is not a discussion about rule changes.

I am on record as saying were I a moderator I would probably ban it for practical reasons. But I am not. Therefore my practical concerns may not apply for the moderators here.

Please do not try to turn the context of my posts into something which was never discussed here.

If you wish to campaign for rule changes, I suggest a new thread. Certainly do not assume that replies here pertain to a context of wanting rules changed here because for clarity mine do not, so I would appreciate if you wouldn't imply they are. They are statements of what I would do - not what I want others to do.
Paul, let's get back to first principles, and take my three propositions one at a time based on what you actually posted. If you've changed your mind since your earlier posts-- that's your prerogative. It seems you would do a lot to avoid a simple "yes" or "no" on principles derived from what you actually posted. You are now both on record for both supporting a ban on death prediction and claiming that you are not on record.

I recommend that you don't conflate areas of apparent agreement with areas of obvious disagreement. The disagreements will still be there, left-over from what appears to be an agreement on just a few principles, based upon your posts.
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Last edited by waybread; 10-08-2013 at 09:39 PM.
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  #387  
Unread 10-08-2013, 07:28 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by poyi View Post
I said this previously but it just sank in the sea of arguments. I seriously thought very much equal to the entire forum needed to shut down and the entire history and practice of astrology should be abandoned and removed, according to some people's belief as if Astrology only as good as low class psychology. I really feel in great extend that all the books I collected in my library and all the hard working and talented predictive astrologers are now being like fool in some people's standard. To some extend including the sponsors of our forum...As I said many times before, to me a great insult to astrologers in large.

However this post is about morality on death prediction. Along the argument, it sounds like all predictive works don't work.
This is a thread about the morality of astrological death prediction, not various famous astrologers nor whether all predictive astrology works.

[deleted response to trolling comment - Moderator]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptolemy View Post
On the point of ethics, cooking patients brains with pharmacological drugs or electricity and lobotomy as a result of theory, has caused more suffering than any, "amateur" astrologer getting a prediction wrong or using an ascendant at 29 degrees. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
I do not understand what relevance the psychiatry movement (i.e., those who subscribe psychotropic medications and to the medical model of mental illness) has to this thread or the OP? Certainly, this is the first time I have seen someone bring it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptolemy View Post
Further astrology is more ethical in respect of the human mind than the limited sexual model of Freud and the psychotherapy school.
Assertions about quantity require measurement. Has anyone measured the ethics of astrology of its patrons? Have not seen it yet. I offered, nobody was interested.
Psychotherapy is subject to objective ethical control. Also, you should know that there are many forms of psychotherapy other than Freud's psychoanalysis (which does have its use, though not for discussion on this thread).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptolemy View Post
Academics fight to the death for their pay checks by choosing an agenda while at least a self employed astrologer will earn a crust by reputation on the ability to make more correct predictions than wrong ones.
Yes, like everyone else (nurses, builders, doctors), academics earn a crust for their skill, used for the progression of science in order to develop greater understanding (I assume you utilise telephones, doctors, when the need arises?).

Nobody is against an astrologer earning their crust with astrology. Nobody is attacking astrology (though you appear to be attacking needlessly another profession). But like most enterprise which deals with human participants, including those potentially vulnerable, ethical principles should be taken into account. That is the point of debate, ethical principles as they bear on astrological death prediction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marinka View Post
Protecting the vulnerable ... this seems to run through your threads frequently.

How would you define someone that is vulnerable? I personally would consider someone under the age of 18 a child and therefore, vulnerable. If someone has a handicap that disallows them from the types of thought processes most people are capable of -- I would also consider that vulnerable. These are only two, I'm sure there are others.

But, you seem to be implying (IMO) that the capable people with able thought processes that frequent this site need to be protected. These people have the thought processes to protect themselves and don't need to have someone else do it for them. I personally would resent someone deciding for me "what answers I am capable of hearing". I'm an adult and that means taking responsibility for myself and making my own decisions (good or bad).

This is not to say that the people coming to this site (or others like it) should be treated with an iron glove. All interaction with other people should be done with the realization that a carelessly chosen word or a lack of gentleness in a reply could cause confusion, concern and a host of other issues in the questioner.

As I've stated, if this is not hurting anyone outside the transaction, why regulate it? Issues are like this can (as others have mentioned) cascade into all predictions. This is why free governments always take due caution when dealing with any "limiting regulations" especially when it comes to "free speech". That's why there is always an invisible line in the sand that you take caution not to cross.

Astrology is all about predicting ...
Marinka, if I may, I will voice my opinion to your post (as it applied to much of the above anyway). The OP is about the morality of death prediction. Where is death prediction done? In person and on forums/internet. Who does it? Those with professional knowledge and those with amateur knowledge (inc. those who lack in people skills).

Several of the professional astrologers on this thread have stated that they limit death predictions to either none or to personal communications and when they are certain the client has the personal resources (on several levels; psychological, philosophical) to handle such news. What people do with each other in personal private time is not really the concern, as I see it. The practical consideration seems to be the danger of social influence via the internet, where there is no personal interaction or adequate information about the client. We can use this forum as a primary concern.

Unidientified and/or nave laypeople, as always, will possibly 'abuse' access to occult science for no good reason or without personal resources to handle an answer (e.g., there is evidence of this throughout). I am not against what people want to believe and I am not against astrological practice for those who wish to practice. But, like Waybread, I am on the side of protecting the (potentially) vulnerable. I know that there exists a potential for serious harm with this type of "prediction" on a forum. Thus, in all fairness, whilst catering to astrologers should be considered, equally, so should catering to the potentially vulnerable, including the potentially disturbed who co-habit. How many of those are there on the forum? We cannot know.

Mental health issues amongst the population are elevated and on the rise. Consideration to this statistic of the general populations which attend the forum, could be profitably acknowledged within any rules and regulations red tape, particularly within a context, such as this one, where people are learning and sidebar participating small segments of their free time (i.e., without a priori professional input or serious application) and, in any event, are not personally invested to consider the emotions of others (e.g., I think we have seen also proof of this). Second to that, age restrictions are also implemented throughout the world for the protection and safety of vulnerable people. Restrictions such as the above two cannot be executed on an internet forum, but limitation of sensitive topics can be.

JUPITERASC started another thread questioning what constitutes a 'sensitive' topic since all predictions have the potential to be upsetting. The clear difference between relationship readings and death prediction is that the former is, inevitably and evidentially, a matter of "replacement" and people often have the capacity to choose to stay with a loved one despite mismatch (e.g., we see evidence of this in the real world). The latter is not subject to replacement or a matter of personal choice. Psychologically, such news would not get the same reception and, ethically, reception may be something to consider.

Conversations about suicide on this forum are banned. Note, suicidal people are not banned, just conversations with suicidal people about their death is banned, even if they are astrological. Those threads get closed down. This is a great idea. But what if depressed and anxious Sue-Ellen, or 15 year old Maisy, posts her sick mother's chart whilst posing as her mother, and asks about a death prediction. To receive a positive answer could become easily more damaging for Sue-Ellen than a query mentioning depression and suicidal thoughts and receiving a "this too shall pass" forecast. If discussion about suicide is banned, I cannot see reason why death prediction to anyone and everyone (i.e., as on a forum) should not be banned, especially, given that we cannot control the authenticity of recipients/requests.

Given that this website cannot control for authenticity of astrologer nor recipient, and does not at this time wish to include a ban on death prediction into its rules and regulations mandate, it would be nice to think that, on the individual level, those who consider themselves professionals would consider it a part of their professional-ism to limit such predictions to personal communication and to view such requests with a critical eye. As mentioned, several professionals on this thread have stated on record that they maintain this level of professionalism and consider it necessary. The problem that pokes me in the eyes is that the self-confessed amateurs of this thread are the ones passionate about the possibility for death prediction on forum. 2 + 2 = It will be amateurs practicing death predictions on anyone, including those potentially suicidal or otherwise vulnerable, even though they may well be wrong and even though they have no way to gage the reaction of the recipient before an adequate post is made.

I do not have anything against any astrologer on this thread or any amateur who desires to learn. Everyone is free to make their own choices and every astrologer is free to work by their own rules. I just hope that some attention may also be stretched to accepting that we share space with potentially vulnerable and paying due caution to that, as it may not be made evident within a forum post. I have read the posts of several members continuously on various different threads and I can see that most have a genuine willingness to help only. Say on fastlane69’s thread, Marinka you offered a lot of your time to focus on the OP’s question. My only concern is always whether the OP are who they say they are. Consider this article on framing. People can frame their reason for a death prediction in any way, it does not preclude the possibility that they could be using a faux frame. Fastlane69 could be a suicidal teenage girl for all anyone knows.

Last edited by wilsontc; 10-10-2013 at 05:24 AM. Reason: teenager to man
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Unread 10-08-2013, 07:45 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

No waybread.

My continuation on this thread is at an end. I've made the points I wanted to make, made the clarifications ad nauseum that I felt I needed to make.

[deleted Moderator comment not relevant to discussion - Moderator]

In the meantime all I would conclude with is to say, as I have always said on this forum, that I recommend that you follow your conscience Waybread, as I have always followed mine, and if we find we disagree and our conclusions differ, so be it, we could, hopefully, agree to disagree. Let me free to exercise my own conscience - that is all I would ask.

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  #389  
Unread 10-08-2013, 09:00 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandy View Post

JUPITERASC started another thread questioning what constitutes a 'sensitive' topic since all predictions have the potential to be upsetting.
For anyone interested the thread referred to is Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrology http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...light=morality
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandy View Post

The clear difference between relationship readings and death prediction is that the former is, inevitably and evidentially, a matter of "replacement" and people often have the capacity to choose to stay with a loved one despite mismatch (e.g., we see evidence of this in the real world). The latter is not subject to replacement or a matter of personal choice. Psychologically, such news would not get the same reception and, ethically, reception may be something to consider.
Not necessarily. The ending of a relationship may well be psychologically experienced in a very similar way to when a person dies
and this is common knowledge - for example suicide of a person who has been rejected in this way.
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Unread 10-08-2013, 09:35 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Marinka, you've mentioned two instances in which death predictions ought not to be given, and we agree that more are likely. I read a fair number of charts for people, and we do find unhappy teenagers, people with mental health disorders such as severe depression or bipolar disorders (by their admission,) as well as presumably rational adults at moments of extreme crisis or confusion.

The question is, when you see a horary question with little background, how do you know whether you are dealing with someone like yourself, or someone who is extremely fragile? Is it worth it to you to take a chance, on the chance you have the former?

Are you suggesting playing some sort of astro-roulette? What risk level is acceptable to you? If your success rate isn't brilliant, how do you determine your impact? The querant is unlikely to return and tell you.

And let's take the case of an emotionally robust person with a third-party question. How do you know there isn't more to it than meets the eye. Do you know whether the patient actually wants a death prediction? Or that the querant doesn't have his own debt problems and power of attorney over Mom's finances?

Are you OK with these risks plus the possibility that you will be wrong-- thereby either momentarily relieving the patient who consequently ignores her medical advice; or unneccessarily scaring the pants off someone for no reason?

The prospect of an imminent death may not frighten you or me, but it frightens some people very badly. I have also tried to distinguish between death and dying. Even if death should be a blessed release, the circumstances leading up to it can be painful, debilitating, and humiliating to the patient; and difficult for the loved ones. I know from having spent time with such people, and seeing the aftermath of death on their survivors. I assume you have, as well.

So isn't this reality a no-brainer for both of us? Can we agree in an objective cost-benefit analysis that the potential risks outweigh the benefits?

Further, suppose you jump into death prediction. This could easily "hurt someone outside the transaction" and cause collateral damage. I have frequently alluded to the problem that now you've normalized one very tricky business in front of newbies world-wide, who think, "If Marinka can do it, so can I." They're the ones who believe in Madame Wanda the fortune-teller, or that the progressed moon in the 8th house means Mom's going to die soon.

We know they're out there because they post on this forum.

What sort of "cascading problems" have you seen with ordinary bans on high-risk behaviours where you live? I have seen zero for people who discourage death prediction. On the pro-death-clock side, I haven't seen anyone come up with something better than a straw man or slippery slope fallacy, the "two wrongs make a right" argument, or the personal belief that they could "help" people (despite the big risks that they could make matters worse.) I have also seen the belief that we live in a society where one doesn't tell someone else what to do or not to do-- despite the fact that you and I live with restrictions large and small all the time.

Why should so many of your society's "unwritten rules" be important to you to observe them, yet you're OK with the prospect of harming vulnerable people?

May I ask a personal question, Marinka? Why is predicting death for complete strangers on an Internet forum so important to you?
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Unread 10-08-2013, 09:41 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

[deleted comment about Moderating not relevant to discussion - Moderator]

Yes, thanks. I will follow my conscience. My conscience isn't OK with the possibility of harming vulnerable people, whether directly or indirectly, for all of the reasons Mandy just mentioned, plus my own.
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Unread 10-08-2013, 10:50 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Oh, gosh, Paul. And here I was protesting to Tim about his heavy-handed moderating of my posts. I'm not a troll, either. I wonder what gives.

Yes, thanks. I will follow my conscience. My conscience isn't OK with the possibility of harming vulnerable people, whether directly or indirectly, for all of the reasons Mandy just mentioned, plus my own
.
It's unlikely that you or anyone else for that matter have never harmed a vulnerable person
either directly or indirectly
whether via astrological physical death clock prediction
or astrological relationship death clock prediction
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Unread 10-08-2013, 10:52 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

By the way, Paul provides reasons for no longer continuing

Many thanks Paul in any event for your excellent comments - I encourage you to reconsider your decision - you would be missed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_ View Post
No waybread.

My continuation on this thread is at an end. I've made the points I wanted to make, made the clarifications ad nauseum that I felt I needed to make.

[deleted Moderator comment not relevant to discussion - Moderator]

In the meantime all I would conclude with is to say, as I have always said on this forum, that I recommend that you follow your conscience Waybread, as I have always followed mine, and if we find we disagree and our conclusions differ, so be it, we could, hopefully, agree to disagree. Let me free to exercise my own conscience - that is all I would ask.
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Unread 10-08-2013, 11:19 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by Mandy View Post


Marinka, if I may, I will voice my opinion to your post (as it applied to much of the above anyway). The OP is about the morality of death prediction. Where is death prediction done? In person and on forums/internet. Who does it? Those with professional knowledge and those with amateur knowledge (inc. those who lack in people skills).

Several of the professional astrologers on this thread have stated that they limit death predictions to either none or to personal communications and when they are certain the client has the personal resources (on several levels; psychological, philosophical) to handle such news. What people do with each other in personal private time is not really the concern, as I see it. The practical consideration seems to be the danger of social influence via the internet, where there is no personal interaction or adequate information about the client. We can use this forum as a primary concern.

Unidientified and/or nave laypeople, as always, will possibly 'abuse' access to occult science for no good reason or without personal resources to handle an answer (e.g., there is evidence of this throughout). I am not against what people want to believe and I am not against astrological practice for those who wish to practice. But, like Waybread, I am on the side of protecting the (potentially) vulnerable. I know that there exists a potential for serious harm with this type of "prediction" on a forum. Thus, in all fairness, whilst catering to astrologers should be considered, equally, so should catering to the potentially vulnerable, including the potentially disturbed who co-habit. How many of those are there on the forum? We cannot know.

Mental health issues amongst the population are elevated and on the rise. Consideration to this statistic of the general populations which attend the forum, could be profitably acknowledged within any rules and regulations red tape, particularly within a context, such as this one, where people are learning and sidebar participating small segments of their free time (i.e., without a priori professional input or serious application) and, in any event, are not personally invested to consider the emotions of others (e.g., I think we have seen also proof of this). Second to that, age restrictions are also implemented throughout the world for the protection and safety of vulnerable people. Restrictions such as the above two cannot be executed on an internet forum, but limitation of sensitive topics can be.

JUPITERASC started another thread questioning what constitutes a 'sensitive' topic since all predictions have the potential to be upsetting. The clear difference between relationship readings and death prediction is that the former is, inevitably and evidentially, a matter of "replacement" and people often have the capacity to choose to stay with a loved one despite mismatch (e.g., we see evidence of this in the real world). The latter is not subject to replacement or a matter of personal choice. Psychologically, such news would not get the same reception and, ethically, reception may be something to consider.

Conversations about suicide on this forum are banned. Note, suicidal people are not banned, just conversations with suicidal people about their death is banned, even if they are astrological. Those threads get closed down. This is a great idea. But what if depressed and anxious Sue-Ellen, or 15 year old Maisy, posts her sick mother's chart whilst posing as her mother, and asks about a death prediction. To receive a positive answer could become easily more damaging for Sue-Ellen than a query mentioning depression and suicidal thoughts and receiving a "this too shall pass" forecast. If discussion about suicide is banned, I cannot see reason why death prediction to anyone and everyone (i.e., as on a forum) should not be banned, especially, given that we cannot control the authenticity of recipients/requests.

Given that this website cannot control for authenticity of astrologer nor recipient, and does not at this time wish to include a ban on death prediction into its rules and regulations mandate, it would be nice to think that, on the individual level, those who consider themselves professionals would consider it a part of their professional-ism to limit such predictions to personal communication and to view such requests with a critical eye. As mentioned, several professionals on this thread have stated on record that they maintain this level of professionalism and consider it necessary. The problem that pokes me in the eyes is that the self-confessed amateurs of this thread are the ones passionate about the possibility for death prediction on forum. 2 + 2 = It will be amateurs practicing death predictions on anyone, including those potentially suicidal or otherwise vulnerable, even though they may well be wrong and even though they have no way to gage the reaction of the recipient before an adequate post is made.

I do not have anything against any astrologer on this thread or any amateur who desires to learn. Everyone is free to make their own choices and every astrologer is free to work by their own rules. I just hope that some attention may also be stretched to accepting that we share space with potentially vulnerable and paying due caution to that, as it may not be made evident within a forum post. I have read the posts of several members continuously on various different threads and I can see that most have a genuine willingness to help only. Say on fastlane69’s thread, Marinka you offered a lot of your time to focus on the OP’s question. My only concern is always whether the OP are who they say they are. Consider this article on framing. People can frame their reason for a death prediction in any way, it does not preclude the possibility that they could be using a faux frame. Fastlane69 could be a suicidal teenage girl for all anyone knows.
Mandy, very well thought out and organized post ...

It appears (IMHO) that much of your concern being stated here is that when transactions are done on the internet, there is no knowledge of the other person or they of you. That is true initially but, as conversation continues, there can be some generalizations made about the people involved by their communications. If the person has posted their natal chart, an astrologer can determine whether they are in a crisis (transits) or whether they are dealing with long-ago issues buried in their chart (natal chart) or simply looking to see when love will enter their life again.

As to people not being what they say they are, sometimes they shine through whatever deception they put out there. I always try and check the charts to see how old someone is (>18 years) or whether they have challenging transits and where the transits are hitting. Personally, I don't do horary for clients or second person interpretations. All of these are valid concerns but, I don't think that it merits banning any predictions (death or otherwise).

As to your mention of suicide ... discussions are not even allowed here, my impression is that the mere mention of suicide in a thread will result in a shutdown and lock (as should be the case). Suicide is different in that the person is in danger at that instant, it may be a call for help .. or maybe not. This forum is not the place to handle that and that's why it's an immediate shutdown.

But, this forum is about prediction ... because that is what astrology is. Maybe any advice/data dispensed should come with disclaimers or maybe with something similar like the literature that comes with your medicine.

The answer is not to ban topics, it's about educating, teaching, and being mentors to the next generations of astrologers.
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Unread 10-08-2013, 11:25 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
It's unlikely that you or anyone else for that matter have never harmed a vulnerable person
either directly or indirectly
whether via astrological physical death clock prediction
or astrological relationship death clock prediction
This looks like a "two wrongs" make a right argument. Can any doctor say she has never inadvertently harmed a patient? Can any long-term judge honestly say she never made an error on precedent? Has any parent never mistakenly discipline a child?

So the issue doesn't hinge on someone never making a mistake. I assume you've looked at risk/benefit analyses and the principles and assumptions behind them. Foundational is the question that, in an imperfect system with imperfect knowledge, how does one maximize the benefits and minimize the risks? If the risks are morally unacceptable, a proposed project is abandoned. If the financial risks are sufficiently high to outweigh prospective benefits, the project is abandoned.

You also recall my numerous posts on how medical ethicists work through difficult problems.
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Unread 10-08-2013, 11:32 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Marinka, what is your risk-benefit analysis? You have no control over what others chime in about on an Internet thread; yet with your support of death-clock astrology, you've now given them encouragement. That is collateral damage.

A lot of astrology is about prediction. A lot of it is not. If someone asks, "What career would I be good at?" the response isn't predictive astrology. But this is "apples and oranges" because death isn't like other areas in which horary/predictive astrologers give their opinions. The chance for both direct and collateral damage is significantly higher.

In your response to Mandy, you assume that you can mop up any damage through continuing the conversation. But if you've given out a prediction that upsets the OPer, you can't mop up the damage. In horary threads, people often don't give their natal charts. Even if they're over 21, you can't tell if they suffer from depression unless you inquire-- but by then, what are you left with? Something other than the reliability of a horary chart.

Why is doing death prediction on living people so important to you?
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Unread 10-09-2013, 12:34 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Marinka, what is your risk-benefit analysis? You have no control over what others chime in about on an Internet thread; yet with your support of death-clock astrology, you've now given them encouragement. That is collateral damage.

A lot of astrology is about prediction. A lot of it is not. If someone asks, "What career would I be good at?" the response isn't predictive astrology. But this is "apples and oranges" because death isn't like other areas in which horary/predictive astrologers give their opinions. The chance for both direct and collateral damage is significantly higher.

In your response to Mandy, you assume that you can mop up any damage through continuing the conversation. But if you've given out a prediction that upsets the OPer, you can't mop up the damage. In horary threads, people often don't give their natal charts. Even if they're over 21, you can't tell if they suffer from depression unless you inquire-- but by then, what are you left with? Something other than the reliability of a horary chart.

Why is doing death prediction on living people so important to you?
Death prediction is applicable ONLY to living people

Only living people can request astrological physical death clock prediction

Similarly only living people request astrological relationship death clock prediction
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Unread 10-09-2013, 12:50 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

I found it amusing and as I suspected while I was cooking my scotch fillet as dinner after night shift and while I was eating my steak, I browsed through 17 pages of replies, No One actually care to define what Morality is?

Many just used their own personal life experience to define rather it is moral to predict death. In reality, we all live in a world of many colors, never Black and White except if you have bi-color vision. I had mentioned before and each time sank into the sea of arguments. No one care to consider and Respect that everyone is different and morality really only is a subjective views of each individual in the given time and life experiences they received over time and accumulation of their education, cultural and religious background they coming from. However, often most claim to KNOW IT ALL with their single life experiences or experiences from their family member or friends or hearing from so and so, or the half read and half understood Bible, many personally selected references from books and online sources to support their own arguments as the only Authority.

I spent about 2 hrs skip reading all the replies. Then spent 0.13 second to google What is Morality?

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/

http://ethicalrealism.wordpress.com/...t-is-morality/

The answer to me, is that everyone is different, every case is different, one with the skills on predicting death should judge as per individual case, to choose the lighter shade to accept or reject to predict out of many shades of grey. There is no definite truth, at least not from the Catholic as an example. It is impossible for me to ever trust those who preach their religion yet molested boys and girls for F**K know how many decades and thousand of years, in secret and protected by their own leaders. Not a second that I thought they are the representation of moral standards. Haven't even mention how they used to treat psychiatric patients with cruel treatments and how senior nuns used to abuse their young. It is impossible for me to also 100% accept legal laws is the absolute truth to all matters.

The only Truth and truly the only, we live in a world of many shades of grey, not the 50 shades book, but as a very fact that there is no absolute standard. Western standard on death prediction will be very different to the Eastern culture, can we say the East such as Vedic and Chinese astrologers are immoral? not necessary, that would be racist to talk like that cause you have no understanding of their value system and had never been living in their society as Indian or Chinese. So how are we to judge that is immoral when we simple have no absolute knowledge about basically anything? And including morality itself, actually we really don't know what morality truly means. Each culture is different, each person have different thoughts, the way they grow up etc. So many variations, what makes one's value and comments higher than the other and be the absolute authority over the other person?

I had said many times, why people not just learn to respect everyone is different and every case is different. But again, my comments were ignored by most. Cause apparently the focus of the thread is not about morality itself, not about predictive astrology either, Oh no way close to be about about exploring knowledge in astrology, but more about Who WON the argument and be the authoritative figure. Apparently, it is all about how many charts he or she read and how many clients he or she had, and whatever references book he or she could quote to justify own arguments to WIN the argument to CLAIM to be the super Highly Moral person.

I am very amused to see many different shades of human psychology. But am very sad for a good forum being at war for so long.
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Marinka, what is your risk-benefit analysis? You have no control over what others chime in about on an Internet thread; yet with your support of death-clock astrology, you've now given them encouragement. That is collateral damage.

A lot of astrology is about prediction. A lot of it is not. If someone asks, "What career would I be good at?" the response isn't predictive astrology. But this is "apples and oranges" because death isn't like other areas in which horary/predictive astrologers give their opinions. The chance for both direct and collateral damage is significantly higher.

In your response to Mandy, you assume that you can mop up any damage through continuing the conversation. But if you've given out a prediction that upsets the OPer, you can't mop up the damage. In horary threads, people often don't give their natal charts. Even if they're over 21, you can't tell if they suffer from depression unless you inquire-- but by then, what are you left with? Something other than the reliability of a horary chart.

Why is doing death prediction on living people so important to you?

I mentioned in another post that I do not do horary (except in very limited cases) and therefore, can not offer input on that. If Paul comes back, then maybe he will address that.

I don't want control over what others say on the Internet but, I want control over what I can say. My stance is not going to affect people - they will do what they want to do with or without my encouragement.

Mopping up damage ? I don't believe that is what I said in the other post -- hmm ... maybe I was not clear. I meant that if you engage with someone on the internet, after a few posts going back and forth, you can start to get clues about the person - not as good as meeting in person but, sometimes it lets you know where they are coming from and with that, you change your responses to illicit more information or change the direction of your responses.

As to depression, when I look at a post for the first time, I check the natal chart and mentally visualize where the current transits are and that should tell me the state of the person (and along with some of the posts, can confirm/deny). There have been more than a few threads where I could tell that the person was at a tipping point and I declined to participate in the post.

What is important is not allowing "select" subjects to be banned. Whether it is here on this site with death predictions or a book with questionable content at the library. I would extend this to people that are different, cultures, hobbies and so on.

You did mention something which I thought was very important and had not been mentioned previously and that is "
death isn't like other areas in which horary/predictive astrologers give their opinions".

I pondered this statement for awhile and realized that a death thread should be just like other threads. People should be able to come in and offer opinions even if the opinion is simply "Why do you want to know that, has something happened that you need clarity on?". I would like to see this done in a comforting way and done in a manner to diffuse the situation. New astrologers should be exposed to handling questions like this. I compare it to an experienced surgeon teaching new surgeons - the new surgeons get to operate with the experienced surgeon standing there watching every move - otherwise, how does the new surgeon learn. If the new surgeon gets in trouble, the experienced surgeon is there to take over.

My whole argument rests on the premise that if there is a transaction between two people and no one else gets hurt, why do others feel the need to regulate it or in this case, ban it.





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Unread 10-09-2013, 08:10 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Death prediction is applicable ONLY to living people

Only living people can request astrological physical death clock prediction

Similarly only living people request astrological relationship death clock prediction
Which is a good reason not to do it. We sometimes use the word "post-diction." The techniques may be the same, but we use a past example.
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