Enough head games already! (Or The thing that wouldn't leave)

My Infamous Ex and I separated a little over 23 years ago. Everytime I think it's dead and buried - it's not. Holly's recent thread on her father resurrected the ghosts again. This is not the "Carrying a torch - can't get over him" deal. It's a little more unusual. I believe alot of my mental problems that I've discussed on this forum are rooted in our brief marriage of one year and three days. He turned from Jekyl into Hyde four days after we married. He was a sicko who loved to play mind games with me, and was abusive mentally, emotionally, and physically. Part of me knows this, and part of me still can't come to terms with it. I was seventeen and very naive at the time of our marriage - went into the marriage full of hope and came out a little over a year later a total wreck. I didn't have any psychological help or even emotional support at the time, so I think I just swept it under the rug, so to speak. I've spent the majority of the Pluto in Sag cycle sorting through this. I feel it's come to a point of resolution, and would like you all to help, if you would. I'm open to psychological approaches. I would especially like to know what was the reason for his mind games, and how they are still affecting me. That seems to be the most lasting effects from him- the mental/emotional jerking around. Although I would count the total rejection of any and all the love I tried to give him right up there as well. It's like he saw me throught sh**- colored glasses, and there was nothing I could do to change it.

Also, since I'm trying to start up a new relationship, I think it's best this is put to rest before I pursue it any further. As Wave pointed out on the other thread, I have some insecurities, and I think they point back to "The Infamous One". ( -winks-)

Our date of marriage was December 26, 1982 in Summersville, WV(between 2 and 4 pm, not sure)
His date of birth is August 13, 1964 in Summersville, WV 1:00pm
Mine is November 28, 1965 in Charleston, WV 9:32am

I have posted the synastry chart. I agree with Draco - Astrodienst isn't the greatest, but it's all I have access to. Also, I am an asteroids junkie - so asteroids enthusiasts, PLEASE respond. It would be a good lesson in asteroids for me, as well. Non-asteroid enthusiasts, please ignore the clutter, but I would like your take, as well. I did include mine and his names on here. I have found names to be quite synchronistically enlightening on the charts. I look at the "names" asteroids as just that - synchronicity in action - not that they have any particular meaning. (-coughs- .Draco ) However I think anyone would find it synchronistically unusual that my name in his chart is conjunct my Mars and is opposing my name in my chart conjunct his Venus.

Thanks to all for your help!!!


View Synastry Chart

freedomlover said:

My Infamous Ex and I separated a little over 23 years ago. Everytime I think it's dead and buried - it's not. Holly's recent thread on her father resurrected the ghosts again. This is not the "Carrying a torch - can't get over him" deal. It's a little more unusual. I believe alot of my mental problems that I've discussed on this forum are rooted in our brief marriage of one year and three days. He turned from Jekyl into Hyde four days after we married. He was a sicko who loved to play mind games with me, and was abusive mentally, emotionally, and physically. Part of me knows this, and part of me still can't come to terms with it. I was seventeen and very naive at the time of our marriage - went into the marriage full of hope and came out a little over a year later a total wreck. I didn't have any psychological help or even emotional support at the time, so I think I just swept it under the rug, so to speak. I've spent the majority of the Pluto in Sag cycle sorting through this. I feel it's come to a point of resolution, and would like you all to help, if you would. I'm open to psychological approaches. I would especially like to know what was the reason for his mind games, and how they are still affecting me. That seems to be the most lasting effects from him- the mental/emotional jerking around. Although I would count the total rejection of any and all the love I tried to give him right up there as well. It's like he saw me throught sh**- colored glasses, and there was nothing I could do to change it.

Also, since I'm trying to start up a new relationship, I think it's best this is put to rest before I pursue it any further. As Wave pointed out on the other thread, I have some insecurities, and I think they point back to "The Infamous One". ( -winks-)

Click to expand...

Hi. I don't have all the answers, but there are some things that stand out.

1) Your Moons square. That means that when a planet is cj'g his Moon, it's squaring yours. Or when a planet is opp'g his Moon, it's squaring yours. Throughout your marriage tr Saturn was squaring your Moon and cj his. In his case, his natal Scorpio Moon is cj his Asc. So tr Saturn was going from a conj with his Moon and into his H1. The Moon is our emotions, but also relates to women. Also, tr Saturn in H1 beams energy over into H7.

2) His Moon is in Scorpio. The Moon is exalted in Taurus and in its fall in Scorpio. This was no doubt a very problematic transit for the both of you. Saturn/Moon transits affect people differently. It can make some people feel very annoyed, make others feel unloved. A Scorpio Moon can really lash out. It's referred to as a Hades Moon. In addition to having a Scorpio Moon, he has a Scorpio Asc. Sounds like he got very ugly. Scorpio is ruled by Pluto. Pluto at its worst is simply awful. Unhappy Plutonians are known to feel betrayed, so play head games, seek revenge, etc.

3) You both have a natal Uranus/Pluto conjunction and were going through some heavy Uranus/Pluto transits. Uranus at its worst is a disrupting force. You had Uranus/Jupiter cj Sun, Pluto cj MC, Jupiter sq Saturn, Jupiter sq Uranus/Pluto, Neptune opp Jupiter, Uranus sq Saturn. With Uranus cj Sun we have sudden changes in goals. The Sun in a woman's chart also represents the men in her life. Uranus sq Saturn is about freedom, breaking free of restrictions. With Pluto cj MC, there were power struggles. Pluto on an angle will beam its energy into all the angles - self, home, partnerships, career. Neptune brings confusion. Jupiter transiting squares and opps can bring legal actions or overspending, financial restrictions. Uranus rules your Moon and H2. H2 is a financial house, but also one of values and self-esteem.

4) For him Uranus had just entered his H2, which signals a change in salary. Tr Mars opp'd his Uranus, which probably started a fight right away. Uranus retroed back into his H1 and quincunxed his natal Venus and Mars. He also had Uranus sq Uranus and Jupiter sq Uranus, Jupiter sq Saturn. I already mentioned the Saturn cj Moon and Saturn cj Asc transits of his. Uranus rules his H4 of home and family. Clearly, he wasn't at his best.

These transits brought some hard energies to deal with for such a young couple. Uranus is a tough one. It can be very Jeckyl/Hyde. Tr Pluto was only 3 deg from tr Saturn, so there was a mixture of those two on your Saturn/Moon transits.

5) The biggest problem that I see is your Moons squaring and they're both fixed. I hope you can somehow overcome his mistreatment of you. He probably said things to you that weren't true with the intention of hurting you, inflicting damage. A Scorpio Moon can be very cruel. Realize that the things he said were more a reflection of him and not you. Pluto transiting H12 can bring up past hurts and as part of the transformation motivate you to let go of the past. Now would be an excellent time to build up your self-esteem so that no one can make you feel less than you are. There are lots of self-help books out there, psychology based or spirtually based. "The Sedona Method" is a good book to read to learn to let go. To understand his Plutonian nature and the dynamics of Pluto/Uranus, Jeff Green has written some very deep books on Pluto that would be helpful. His books spawned evolutionary astrology, so they're quite good. You'll get lots of a-has when you read them.

Good luck.

Aquarius Moon,


Thank you so much for your generous reply! It certainly sounds like I was "caught in the cosmic crossfire" back then. And that's surely the way it felt. You mentioned the Uranus in his second house, I'm assuming that would also govern erratic income. He made good money at the time WHEN he was working. But he also wanted to party every bit of it away, never mind the rent and the rest of the necessities of life for me and the baby. ( I know, I know, we should never have gotten married, especially so young - but hindsight's 20/20). That was alot of our fights - but not what made me really miserable.

The really miserable part came in with his mind games. It's like he ENJOYED breaking my heart and putting me down. Looking back, I can see that he set me up to knock me down. He once threw a plate of spaghetti against the wall because I didn't make it cook faster, and thus be ready when he wanted it. He threw a ball of burning paper on my bare leg - and laughed. He would call me into the room where he was, and when I came in, he would tell me something. Then, as I was just getting ready to leave his sight, he would call me in again, and repeat the process. Due to my being so in love with him, and also getting fearful of what he would do to me if I didn't come, this could go on for quite some time - like a puppet on a string. Looking back, I can start to see that he was doing it on purpose just to keep me in control. The biggest thing about all of this was that he really seemed to ENJOY it!!!!!!!!

I can see now that there were really hard transits afflicting our marriage, but I can't let him off that easy. He's mellowed out a little over the years - but not a whole lot. He remarried again about 12 years ago. He treated her the same way. Their marriage lasted about 2 years. He tried to remarry again about 5 years ago, but the girl got wise and listened to what everybody was saying about him and ended the relationship. Lucky girl! I can see where she made a very good judgment call because he can be extremely charming - while you're dating. As soon as the wedding rings go on - BAM! Jekyl into Hyde. the former object of his affection is instantly transformed into the scum of the earth whom he delights in torturing. Can you (or anyone) see what would trigger this in his chart?

I have received another layer of healing on this today - but there's still some more. I'm currently not financial able to buy any books - even used ones. However, I have read many of Jeffrey Wolf Green's articles on his website, and they have been very enlightening. I've also read many, many other books and articles over the last several years( actually ad nauseum). and done forgiveness work pretty much daily - for years. Sometimes there's nothing that takes the place of "talking about it" - even if it's on an astrology forum.

Thanks again for your help!

the composite chart shows a venus/mars conjunction opposed to the sun.this is a good start as it indciates a ont time there was a strong emotional/sexual attraction.with jupiter sextile this conjunctions,it would seem to imply a good relationship.but jupiter is square to the uranus/pluto conjunction and square to the saturn/chiron midpoint.these are deadly aspects for a relationship the uranus element show no longterm potential and the saturn,chiron and pluto elements are brutal.it can even manifest as violence.the saturn/chiron square is a very sadistic,cynical impulse.the sun/neptune midpoint is conjunct mercury which indicates deceit and a cruel nature.with saturn square to the ascendant,i wonder if you he reminded you of your father figure.
rahu

Rahu,

Thanks for responding! You absolutely nailed the before/after descriptions! I still wonder what was HIS trigger for the change in behavior - that is, in his psyche. I'm wondering if he wasn't just plain mentally ill or possessed or something.

As to him reminding me of my father figure...... Actually, I never knew my father. My mother always kept his identity secret from me. The man who acted as my father till I was 9 was my maternal grandfather. He was a very gentle and kind man who spent a great deal of time with me, and was very supportive. He died of a sudden heart attack when I was 9. I guess that was what made my head go "tilt". I wasn't used to being treated like that by a man. I had been sexually abused by my uncle as a child, but surprisingly, my ex was not a bit sexually abusive. In fact, after we got married, he pretty much lost all interest in sex. I guess he got more enjoyment out of the torture. I think I kept holding on to a fantasy image of him being like my grandfather, and I couldn't face the fact that he was nowhere near that.

However, in the past few years, since believing in reincarnation, and knowing how all of this works, and things get "triggered"...... I realized that one of my past lives in which I was terribly abused was triggered by his behavior - and it was a "father figure" so to speak. The emotions I had from the past life came forth and kind of overshadowed everything else.

Anyway, thanks again, Rahu. I really need to learn about midpoints. I'm going to add that to my list of things I want to study this year.

Freedomlover Hello

This is a strange but true post. As a leo \woman I'm having the same issues with my ex (Sag). I can't seem to get past the sense of betrayal and disappointment i feel towards him even though we parted in 2001. I'm also not over the moon that things always seem to work out right for him, born in the year of the Monkey and always lands on his feet. Although I'm not avalible for him sexually i seem to be giving him as much time psychically/ emotionally as i did when we were together. In addition, He's the most handsome, creative, artistic person I know. This doesn't help! I'm worried when we're in the same room for longer than 10mins that, we'll resume it all again under the starry skies. This of course was not the reality of the relationship. this man had severe Neptune tendancies. A wonderful Imaginary relationship but alittle thin on the ground in reality.

When in another relationship I tend to pine for the sense of adventure and excitement we had together. :banana:

Good luck in moving forward with your life

FL
You mentioned a baby...
Does your child still have contact with his father/ your ex?
BMG

Hey Freedomlover ,

I remember in a similar thread talking about the karma about this subject, i'l try to give you a hand in different methods.

In his chart I see very good aspects, but too many can be bad, cause like the ancient astrologers said, to many trines is a sign of evil, because the person came in this world just like in a vacation, without a spiritual life, just material. To see the source of the problem I decided to use 4th harmonic chart factor so I can see whats going on. 4th harmonic chart transforms squares and opposition in conjunctions, semi-squares and sesquiquadrates in oppositions, and the 22.5 , 67.5 , 157.5 ( minor tension aspects ) becomes square.

This is the 4th harmonic chart ( whit asteroids, virtuals and uranians included ):



For those that aren't use whit astrolog32 ( conjunction[yellow], trine[green], sextile[teal], square[red], opposition[blue] ). You will notice the T-Square that shows a great problem to his psychological nature, Pluto conjuncts Vesta, meaning trieng to dominate at home, Vesta was the goddess that couldn't get in love, that means Pluto whit Vesta means, dominating at home without love at all, meaning that Pluto is an extreme planet, it's never at the middle, if it's not love, then it's other extreme, meaning hateful nature at home. Pluto/Vesta squares Sun/Junon/Pallas Athena/ and Venus at the other side, meaning having a cruel nature towards other, Sun opposing Venus is actualy very present in the most serial killer charts (4th harmonic), he just likes to torment the ones who love him, meaning again an evil nature. Other places is Moon squaring Cupido, meaning bad emotions, sentiments, that is very instinctual in a very ferocious way. Saturn conjuncting Kronos and Zeus means bieng tiranic towards other, using force expecialy to ones that are more weak, showing bieng very coward ( also Mercury square Jupiter shows it ). Also talking about Mercury which squares Mars and Jupiter making another T-Square shows the person is very materialistical and instinctual, his happiness it's anything that is taken by force and decieving ( bieng liar and hypocritical ).
Trines in 4th harmonic shows what kind of pleasure does the person have, what efforts does he like?, Uranus trining Mars, Pluto trining Neptune/Hades, Sun trining Lilith/Ceres, Kronous trining Moon, Cupido trining Pluto etc, they all seem very heavy planets on soft planets, meaning bieng harsh on whats soft, experimenting violent towards other people, experimenting for his own pleasures. Neptune conjuncting Hades means, a dark psychological nature, very diabolical, he might have some strange addiction too, also illusions whit more dark conotations. I think it's enought to say that the whole 4th harmonic chart looks so bad, while in the normal chart is harder to see such influences.

Also if you use parallel aspects, all parallels ( yellow in the chart ) are turned by the 4th harmonic exactly like the squares/oppositions transformed into conjunctions, while all couter-parallels ( blue ) are turned by the 4th harmonic exactly like sesquiquadrates/semi-squares tranformed into oppositions, you will see how perfect they fit to the nature of what he has.


*********************************************************


Now to detect at your natal chart someone abusing you mentaly, I can see certain indicators ( no more harmonics this time). Your South Node is at Sagittaurius, ruled by Jupiter, i'm trieng to find out the distance between them actualy makes things very interesting, the distance is far at about 156, that aspect doesn't exist, but if you check the next major aspect which is the opposition, you can make a difference, 180-156=24, the aspect of 24 is actualy the limit orb of the 22.5 aspect, which is tensionated one, meaning that the South Node tells you by the distance whit Jupiter that you have is a past 22.5 angle karma ( also called the Proserpine karma ). This means South Node conjuncting whit Sun will show that in a past life, you had much free-will, but you abused it and made lots of unfair and unjustifical deeds towards others, you showed hypocrasy, restricted others freedom making them very unhappy. This life to burn such karma, I see Jupiter Rx is at 6th, very near 7th, retrograde always means having yourself some unfair moments of life, of abuse by others, the lesson is to balance and purify yourself ( proserpine ), this only if you have your own set of punishment how you did in your previous lives, bieng abused, Jupiter in Gemeni ( mental sign ) at the end of 6th ( unfortunate house ), and it's dispositor Mercury is at 12th ( unfortunate house ) and retrograde, meaning bieng abused mentaly by others. You already passed that test, you becomed very religious and forgiving person, this is a very good sign, that always a bad event in life it's actualy for the purpose of good, which I remember we talked in a earlier thread about it.

Now the synastry, I see holisticaly that it's something wrong whit it. I notice 3 not so good indicators: First is that there are many harsh aspects ( squares, oppositions ). Second it's a lot of geometrical parallels ( NOT parallel aspects ), just look at the J's Pluto/Mercury/Uranus trining Karen's Mars that is very much of geometric parallel whit the Karen's Saturn trining J's Mars. Also J's Jupiter sesquiquadrates Karen's Mars has a geometric parallel whit Karen's Sun inconjuncting J's Venus. There are a lot of geometric parallels going on and I don't need to tell them all, but I can say in a holistical point of view, that if a synastry has to many geometric parallels, this means the to persons are to different to eachother, also meaning that one of them has two faces ( false person and liar ). The third holistical indicator is actualy triggered by the second, to many geometric parallels makes scrissor configurations, Scrissor configurations are two aspects interesecting eachother to a point that they look like real scrissors, the Square and Opposition scrissors are the most dangerous, cause they make things to aggressive and abusive, in other words, this synastry has lot's of disharmony and agression going on. Sometimes you don't even need to look at the planets to see something wrong, just looking at the aspects you see what's going on.

*************************************************************
For those who don't understand, bellow are some charts whit Geometric Parallel and Scrissors.



The geometric parallel forms only when two aspects are parallel to eachother, at this chart we see it clear. If someone would have such configuration, he might have problems whit decisions in life, relating to others, the most extreme example is to have double personality, bieng liar and false, but those are rare.



The scrissors are 2 types, made by squares and one made by oppositions, usualy shows some type of agression by others or towards others, but in a simplier way it shows some psychologycal stress.

Now in a Mundane point of view:

Starting when Saturn entered Leo, bieng the sign of love, sentiment, dating, children, affection etc. Saturn ingressing there ( entering ), triggered a lesson in a mundane way, all relationships in this world will be put to the test by Saturn, only those who are serious, well structured, old, disciplined will survive, the others won't survive the saturnian lesson and will break apart. Right now Saturn is Rx and still in Leo, expect a great test in april 2007 when Saturn will opposite Chiron, making a Saturn clash for all relationships in this world, only the most serious will survive until Saturn will enter Virgo.

I hope i'm helpful, I typed very fast and very chaotic, it might have many mistakes in the grammer.

PS: LOL, this reply end up HUGE.

Waterlilly,
Thanks for sharing your experience. Actually, this was not the case with my ex-husband, as this is more recovery from the PTSD he inflicted on me mentally and emotionally while we were married. However, it is interesting that you should bring that up, because I have another (groan....) case in which I know EXACTLY what you mean. Probably there is a thread tying this one with that one, and that's why you brought it up. -winks- Thanks!

BMG,

To answer your question, the "baby" is now 23. And "yes", she has maintained contact with her father - mostly because he still lives with his mother, and she always spent a lot of time with her paternal grandmother. He was very mentally and emotionally abusive towards her, as well - although not nearly as severe as he gave me. She finally put quite a bit of emotional distance between them- quit calling, etc. I guess that's what he needed, because he starting changing towards her somewhat. He is still dictatorial and abusive, but not as bad. He also became (surprisingly) quite generous with her financially - helping her out alot in getting stabilized with her own car and home.

It's interesting though... after looking at the money theme in the Harmonics chart that Betelgeuse so generously provided, that he is still the same ole', same ole' with me. I have been very ill and lost my home, and have had to stay for a few months with our daughter. She told me the other day that he is very angry at me staying here with her, and he wants me out. I have been absolutely as nice as pie to him. I pray for him, speak kindly to him, am respectful, even confessed everything I knew I'D done wrong in the marriage and asked him to forgive me. He looked me in the eye, and said "No." He flat-out refuses to let go of the hatred.

Betelgeuse,
Thanks so much for all of the time and effort you put into this! It is very much appreciated. I found the information extremely helpful in sorting out some things. I'd been wanting to learn about Harmonics for awhile, as I felt the unction that it would help me. However, I have no access to books, and it is very difficult most of the time, with my mental problems, to learn and grasp anything new. I had to re-read your post several times, and really, REALLY tried to focus, but I think I grasped some knowledge. Also, I wrote down the aspects myself, and studied them in light of what I already knew.

I found it highly interesting that the focal point of the chart was that Jupiter/Scorpio exactly conjunct the AC opposing Mars/Taurus exactly conjunct the DC. And, if you remember, he has Jupiter conjunct Algol in his 7th natally. Then Mercury and Chiron in Aquarius is the point of the t-square in the 4th. Does that pretty much sum up him and his power struggles over money and always having to be right- inflexible opinions. I take it that he felt him earning the money gave him the right to cancel out my rights in the home - the child's, too.

It's odd, too, that you brought up the serial killer reference.... my mom always swore he was one. She even gave some specific examples of her suspicion that she tried to accuse him of to me. This was a few months after we divorced. I really don't think he did it. I think she was just being extreme. However, it is obvious by the chart that the groundwork for one is laid, or at least the type that would do that to his wife. He was really scary sometimes. To his credit, though, I think he has mellowed out somewhat over the years. I guess the real test would be how he would treat his wife, should another woman ever be brave enough to marry him. (or stupid enough!)

Thanks again, Betelgeuse! And I remember your help on him before. Hopefully this is "the last hurrah" and I'll be over the hump for good with this karma. I'm thinking somehow I'm carrying the load of HIS nasty karma. My life has been a living hell, and he is riding along nicely - nothing going wrong in his life. I say this because you listed that he had a lot of bad karma from the way he treated me. Is this possible? Can I be "letting him" let me carry it? Of course, I don't WANT anything bad to come to him - that would be revenge. However, I do know, from personal experience, that sometimes we don't see what we're doing wrong or the need for change until we suffer a little (or a lot).

p.s. your typing was great. I give you an "A"!

freedomlover said:

BMG,
To answer your question, the "baby" is now 23. And "yes", she has maintained contact with her father - mostly because he still lives with his mother, and she always spent a lot of time with her paternal grandmother. He was very mentally and emotionally abusive towards her, as well - although not nearly as severe as he gave me. She finally put quite a bit of emotional distance between them- quit calling, etc. I guess that's what he needed, because he starting changing towards her somewhat. He is still dictatorial and abusive, but not as bad. He also became (surprisingly) quite generous with her financially - helping her out alot in getting stabilized with her own car and home.

It's interesting though... after looking at the money theme in the Harmonics chart that Betelgeuse so generously provided, that he is still the same ole', same ole' with me. I have been very ill and lost my home, and have had to stay for a few months with our daughter. She told me the other day that he is very angry at me staying here with her, and he wants me out. I have been absolutely as nice as pie to him. I pray for him, speak kindly to him, am respectful, even confessed everything I knew I'D done wrong in the marriage and asked him to forgive me. He looked me in the eye, and said "No." He flat-out refuses to let go of the hatred.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry to hear all that
But he has to keep his nose out your living situation
She's your daughter too, it's not because he plays all of a sudden Daddy Rich he has to control who lives with his daughter.
I even think he isn't worth your forgiveness, but may be that the strong Taurus Scorpio axes playing out in me
But i hope your present and future will be better then some episodes in your past... And you've had a daughter, who can't be worse then him, i hope

BMG

BMG,

Thanks for the kind words. Yeah, as much as he seems to enjoy using money to get power over others and then abuse them or try to control them.... I'm wondering..... maybe he was the dictator of a small country in a past life? or a Viking? Attila the Hun? Nero? (LOL)

Hey Freedom,
Terrific dissection of astro info Betel!
Freedom, we only pay our own karma.
Maybe Betel can dissect your exs karma, but i read the post as focusing on your karma.
Happy New Year, love,
2rainbows

I can’t un see what I’ve seen once I’ve seen it.
I can un hear what I heard once I’ve heard it.
I can’t un feel what I’ve felt once I’ve felt it.
I can’t un taste what I’ve tasted once I’ve tasted it.
I can’t release the past but, learn to live with it.
We can revise what we thought we had learnt and, do better with it

I am the memories I choose to keep.
I am the reson I choose to weep.
I am the way I laugh with you.
We are the way we’re so in tune…

Waterlilly
(There are a great feelings in this poem,and it is from real heart)

Ahh thanks Astro.
Yes it really is from the heart.
My mother wrote great poerty when i was a child.
although not as great. it is one of her qualities I'm proud of.

2Rainbows,

Yes, Kudos to Betelgeuse! He really outdid himself!

I know a person can't PAY someone else's karma. But after meditating and praying over this question, I came up with this: If we LET others treat us badly and never confront them with it or "draw the line in the sand", we are letting them get away with not changing, and therefore, energetically, the "weight" of their karma comes on to us UNTIL we stand up for ourselves. This is why things suddenly shift in a situation after a person finally stands up for themselves. It makes sense to me. We're not PAYING their karma, but we are CARRYING it, by letting them get away with it. When we stand up for ourselves, the weight goes back to them,and then they have to deal with it.

Oh come on you guys, i'm not that swift in astrology, still newbie, but I thank you all for the compliments.

Anyway for Freedomlover, astrology it's a life time learning. You can learn harmonics anytime you want.

Lets get harmonical:

http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/harmonics32.1.html
http://members.tripod.com/~astrographer/introduction_and_methodology.htm
http://accessnewage.com/articles/astro/ha_intro.htm

These are a few usefull links I found, take your time learning them.

Wonderful, Betelgeuse! I especially like the BobMarks page. I've had his site bookmarked, but never got around to noticing the harmonics section. He explains it simply enough for my poor brain to "get it" right now. I have the feeling that this is going to be a very useful tool for getting to the bottom of things quickly. The 4th harmonics that you showed on this thread really zeroed in on the core problem. It was so simple, even I could see it!

Thanks again! You're an angel.