Ascendant vs. Descendant

Thanks to all for the advices! I really did started to read information that I thought I knew... and I do, but maybe absorbing it carefully and making smaller steps would make me understand more than before.
P.S. - I wondered...How exactly Western astrology views the ascendant? Like the outward personality or the main personality indicator? If I consider the soul as the basis of a person then I would think that the personality is the outward mask of that main essence that makes a person more than his body and maybe then the 'out' would not be only the image others see but the image I have in this incarnation - the main personality point and not just the outward. This would make the Ascendant sign more important than the Sun sign when we're talking about personality not as something deep and personal(not that it's not deep and personal) but as the soul's mask. I hope you'll understand what I mean, I don't know if I described it well. What kind of astrology considered the Ascendant as more important, was it esoteric?

Some of the older traditional astrologers considered the ascendant to describe the personality more than the sun; or perhaps a combination of the ascendant, moon, and perhaps the sun or some other point. When Ptolemy said "soul", however, he seemingly meant the personal vs. some sort of divine consciousness.

Yanel said:

Thanks to all for the advices! I really did started to read information that I thought I knew... and I do, but maybe absorbing it carefully and making smaller steps would make me understand more than before.

P.S. - I wondered...How exactly Western astrology views the ascendant? Like the outward personality or the main personality indicator? If I consider the soul as the basis of a person then I would think that the personality is the outward mask of that main essence that makes a person more than his body and maybe then the 'out' would not be only the image others see but the image I have in this incarnation - the main personality point and not just the outward. This would make the Ascendant sign more important than the Sun sign when we're talking about personality not as something deep and personal(not that it's not deep and personal) but as the soul's mask. I hope you'll understand what I mean, I don't know if I described it well.

What kind of astrology considered the Ascendant as more important,

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Ancient Astrologers calculated 'Lots' also known as 'Arabic Parts'
on which they based important delineation
such as Fortune, Fame, Success, Health
In fact there is an article on that subject on our Education Board THE FIVE LOTS OF FATE, SUCCESS - YOUR FORTUNE CHART by Ray Austin http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13197

There is a free ARABIC PARTS CALCULATOR at http://libracentre.com/arabic_parts_chart.php
and by clicking on the tiny downward facing triangle opposite where it says 'Part' at the top of the page
a drop down menu appears with a selection of Arabic Parts or Lots
and one may easily note that the vast majority of the calculations for those Lots are dependent on the Ascendant.
That alone highlights the importance of the Ascendant

Yanel said:

.....was it esoteric?

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Some information on a form of 'Esoteric Astrology' is viewable at http://www.librarising.com/astrology/fwa/astro.html

Yanel said:

Hi! I find the descirptions of the AC/DC axis a little bit confusing so I'd appreciate someone else's opinion.
Here it is the 'problem': If the Descendant/7th house represents not only other people but the native's behaviour towards other people how then the Ascendant is also considered the expression of a person when interacting with other people, the mask? Some sources refer to the AC as the mask we put when in the outer world, the ones who don't do that don't give clear definitions. Also, some sources refer to the DC as only what the other people are like in one's life but it's absurd because I sense that this is only a part of what this point stands for and if the DC is not in any way yours then why it is shown in the individual horoscopes?
Thanks

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I tend to see the natal chart as the entire life of the native or rather their entire world. So, as an extension of that, I tend to come to the conclusion that not everything in the chart really directly applies to you.

Only in Psychological Astrology would it make sense to say that the 7th house represents your particular attitudes about relationships. If you're not taking a Psychological approach to the subject, then it'll be a big help to you to look at the 7th house as just relationships and your experiences with them rather than your explicit feelings about them.

Also it's important to note that the 7th house is all relationships, even negative ones. Your spouse and your mortal enemy (as long as you're aware of them as being such) both fall in the 7th house. Also, business partners fall into this house. So planets related to this house may show aspects of your spouse, your marriage, your rivalry with your enemies, or your relationships with your business partners.

It all depends on what school of Astrology you're following.

Originally, astrologers literally looked at the skies for visual orientation with the stars
and were skilled mathematicians and astronomers,
able to calculate a natal chart without the use of computers.
Today, the vast majority of astrologers view the natal chart as a two dimensional image on a computer screen.
So the nature of the Ascendant and Descendant from a three-dimensional perspective is illustrated by the attached image

i.e.

'Ascendant' and 'Descendant' are opposites ON THE CIRCLE OF THE HORIZON
The Ascendant represents EAST and the Descendant represents WEST

This is a great thread. I had this exact same question that Yanel posed. I feel like I understand the Descendant better now, and agree that it's often seemingly overlooked compared to the ASC point and 7th house in general.

I had difficulty understanding my own DSC, in Sagittarius, because I've never really had a lot of Sagittarius people in my life (except for my mother). I have several family members who are Saggy, but we've actually agreed between us that if we weren't family, we'd have no interest or association with each other at all (typical Sag honesty!).

However, taking all this in, I understand how this DSC is manifesting, and perhaps I can paint a fairly clear example of how I think the ASC/DSC interact as an axis at least in my own chart for now.

-I'm envious of people who travel without a care in the world, have no possessions or worries and just go where ever they please. I feel like I could never be like that, but deep down I want to be. Gemini ASC is short journeys, while Sag DSC is long ones. I am always stuck in places where I can only journey short distances, or work well/feel comfortable in that atmosphere, but longer journeys that I see others taking capture me. Venus in the 4th house, also ruled by Mercury, is square the ASC/DSC axis, and I think this gives a "stuck at home" feeling, or difficultly pushing past the comfort zone of home.

-Saturn is conjunct my DSC. I've also tended to be interested in those that are older than me, body or spirit, and my Gemini ASC often gives off a more youthful presence (I look younger than I am). I am attracted to student-teacher or mentor/mentee relationships, where I am more often mentee but hope as I get older can become the mentor. Saturn rules my Moon in the 9th house. I also have Uranus is in the 7th house and I have Aquarius MC. These relationships have often advanced my life and development to a huge degree, starting even from when I was very young with my very first grade school teacher. ASC in Gemini and Mercury in the 3rd house, my eagerness to learn might show why these relationships tend to flower.

-Most significant, one-to-one relationships I've had (that I've looked at thru synastry) show strong contacts, usually conjunctions or oppositions, with my Jupiter and/or theirs. I also have had three relationships with people with strong Capricorn (2 had Capricorn ASC, and I have a Sun/Moon opposition in Cancer/Cap). Capricorn and Sag seem very different, but considering the whole chart, it makes sense for one-one relationships despite a Sag DSC/7th house.

Thank you for all the advice everyone and to Yanel for asking the question!

You are probably over-simplifying, Flapjacks.

I have Cancer rising, and you have just described my life....I'm envious of people who travel without a care in the world, have no possessions or worries and just go where ever they please.

Not an easy life. A rolling stone gathers no moss. All my worldly possessions carried on my back. No home. Sleeping where sunset found me. Always in search of water. No lasting friendships. Alienated from family.....etc. Twice my backpack was stolen from me; once I got it back, the other time no (although I knew who stole it and where he lived)...no bed, no cooking gear, no clothes, no nothing.

But...Free. No one can control or bind a man who has no possessions, no roots. That's true, and it has its good features. The only way I can be manipulated or controlled is by force, pain...and you will have to break me.

Think twice. Be careful what you ask for when you rub the lamp. Most people could not and would not live my life. It was never really my choice; it was just what I had to do, driven on by superior force.

The Decsendant/7th contains a lot more stuff than people normally ascribe to it.

to be sure. I have cancer rising, but I value mostly my 12th house lessons, which I find those that don't have those placements don't understand well. And I would not trade them, especially for something like a house in the suburbs. cheers.

greybeard said:

You are probably over-simplifying, Flapjacks.

I have Cancer rising, and you have just described my life....I'm envious of people who travel without a care in the world, have no possessions or worries and just go where ever they please.

Not an easy life. A rolling stone gathers no moss. All my worldly possessions carried on my back. No home. Sleeping where sunset found me. Always in search of water. No lasting friendships. Alienated from family.....etc. Twice my backpack was stolen from me; once I got it back, the other time no (although I knew who stole it and where he lived)...no bed, no cooking gear, no clothes, no nothing.

But...Free. No one can control or bind a man who has no possessions, no roots. That's true, and it has its good features. The only way I can be manipulated or controlled is by force, pain...and you will have to break me.

Think twice. Be careful what you ask for when you rub the lamp. Most people could not and would not live my life. It was never really my choice; it was just what I had to do, driven on by superior force.

The Decsendant/7th contains a lot more stuff than people normally ascribe to it.

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Oh gosh, I'm always simplifying! I could make a lot of other connections for what I said, but I try not to bore everyone to tears.

The thing is... I still feel like I have no roots, alienated from family, no lasting friends... that is the pitfall of living like a hermit as well. I'm not sure what in my chart describes that, but it's something I've always struggled with. I feel Saturn is involved with it, since it's so largely fear based.

When I was homeless I also carried all my possessions on my back. I was 16. I was staying at a shelter at night with my mother, but wandered freely about the city during the day. Once during summer I got lost and didn't recognize where I was. I looked around me and realized I could go in whatever direction I wanted, and it didn't matter. It was the most fantastic feeling I'd had in a long time. I'd fantasize about hopping on train without knowing where it was going. Not being able to afford a ticket, I'd contemplated trying to sneak on, too. I once sat at the station for an hour trying to get the courage to, but never did.

Sometimes I'd ride buses and make transfers without looking at a map... hoping to end up somewhere I didn't know. I don't know why it made me feel "free," but it did. Of course I'd always go home in the end, even if home was a van. And I never went anywhere truly different. Most of the time I'd just stay at the library all day and read (that what I get for being so Mercurial).

So, to me, it ***** to have gone through a lot of what you described and have not really gone anywhere; and not having anything really beautiful to show for it as you do, judging from the stories you've told.

Where is your Moon? You may not be a homebody based on a Cancer ASC alone, of course... if that is what you meant by simplifying. My Leo Mercury (ASC ruler) and Cancer Sun is in the 3rd, opposed Moon in the 9th... echoing the ASC/DSC polarity, which is why I interpret it the way I did. The 4th house ruler is also Leo, so Sun rules my 4th house in 3rd. I think this shows a lot of "short journeys" within "home".

Yanel said:

Hi! I find the descirptions of the AC/DC axis a little bit confusing so I'd appreciate someone else's opinion.
Here it is the 'problem': If the Descendant/7th house represents not only other people but the native's behaviour towards other people how then the Ascendant is also considered the expression of a person when interacting with other people, the mask? Some sources refer to the AC as the mask we put when in the outer world, the ones who don't do that don't give clear definitions. Also, some sources refer to the DC as only what the other people are like in one's life but it's absurd because I sense that this is only a part of what this point stands for and if the DC is not in any way yours then why it is shown in the individual horoscopes?
Thanks

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AS : YOU
DS : PARTNER

AS represents you, yourself, your appearance. DS represents partnership. If you have Sun on 7 it is likely your partner will think of you as egoistic, or the partner is egoistic. Sun in 1st brings the quality of Sun and the bad ones to to AS, to your appearance.

Same goes for other planets.

Just to tag on, further....

The AS is the "you" that you present to other people. If it is incompatible with your sun or moon, or poorly aspected, you may not have a clear sense of how you come across to others. I just saw a TCM re-run of the 1960s movie, "Georgie Girl" with Lynn Redgrave, Alan Bates, and James Mason. If you're familiar with this film, the Georgie character would be a perfect example of someone unaware of her ascendant; whereas her roommate (played by Charlotte Rampling) was extremely aware and used her good looks to her advantage.

The DS and 7th house is also "you"-- as you are everything in your chart. It specifically shows "you" in long-term relationships such as marriage; or perhaps difficulties in this department. But more generally, the 7th shows how other people show up in your life: the "me/you" interface. A person with her sun in the 7th, for example, is probably very "other-directed" and feels most like herself when she is part of a couple.

The Ascendant is associated with the 1st House


Main Rulerships of 1st House

Life, vitality and health.
Stature, colour, complexion, form and shape of body.

Older sources note its influence upon the intellect
the way the mind works
and speech.

In general,
the first house represents the focal point for the personality
and manner of expression.

As well as describing the physical appearance,

the condition of this house
and that of its planetary ruler
indicates the level of personal vitality and strength http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h1.html


The Descendant is associated with the 7th House

Main Rulerships of 7th House

Marriage and all forms of partnerships.

The spouse, lover and person enquired after.

Business partnerships
and the legal contracts that pertain to them.

Watters notes that affliction of the 7th represents:
"an open rupture in a partnership or marriage" ([JoE], p.65).

7th indicates opponent in any lawsuit or conflict
All enemies that are known as such belong to 7th house

the 12th house warns of secret enemies

but
as soon as their existence is known
they are represented through the 7th house http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h7.html

Yanel said:

...If I consider the soul as the basis of a person then I would think that the personality is the outward mask of that main essence that makes a person more than his body and maybe then the 'out' would not be only the image others see but the image I have in this incarnation - the main personality point and not just the outward. This would make the Ascendant sign more important than the Sun sign when we're talking about personality not as something deep and personal(not that it's not deep and personal) but as the soul's mask. I hope you'll understand what I mean, I don't know if I described it well. What kind of astrology considered the Ascendant as more important, was it esoteric?

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Vedic Astrology considers ASC as most important point. ASC is the way everyone else would like to see in you. Sun is the way you want to see yourself and most important in Western Astrology.

For example a mom is putting a "yellow" cap on her son, it is because of her son's ASC (Jupiter in on ASC). The son might throw it and wear "red" cap lying near by (Sun in Aries).

In the same example mom might want to feed her son (Jupiter on ASC are fed more), where as the son might want to play around (Sun in Aries has more energy for physical activity).

I hope this hypothetical example serves your purpose how ASC and SUN affect individuals.

I agree that the ASC-DC polarity is about the 'me/you interface',yet in this age I think we need to expand on our understanding of how that interface works. Through the Ascendant we have had to develop a 'personality face' that we feel will help us connect with others, even if it is different from our true self, as per the Sun/Moon. It helps to think in terms of the give and take in any polarity, as per the workings of the Law of Cause and Effect. Our expression of self sent forth, creates reactions in others that we encounter, which then reflects back on our sense of self, which may cause us to change or modify how we interact in future encounters. If we meet discord or disagreement through the 7th, this also has an effect on our self esteem: we will either react by defending the self, in competition, or retreat and give leeway to others. In turn this can affect our future actions and the way we express ourselves. Action creates reaction returned to us, which in turn serves as a gauge of our own actions. If we put on a 'pretty mask' others are more likely to respond in positive ways. An afflicted 7th would indicate that something about our personality expression creates a negative response in others. We may then work to adjust how we choose to interact, in order to gain more support and encouragement from others. This shows that the ASC can be malleable according to different situations. It is fair to say that the Sun in the 7th suggests good relationships, yet if the Sun is afflicted this is not so. Our Identity development is an ongoing process and the way we interact with others will also be affected according to what we encounter through the 7th. I think the ASC represents our conscious awareness of self and how we choose to express ourselves, while the Sun is a subconscious part of the self which in the long term, we are striving to adopt as our true self. Case in point; my long term partner is Leo Rising, and this is how I first 'encountered him'; fun-loving, affectionate and impressive to others, who came to him as if moths to a light; yet it seems that in the later years he has lost that childlike, fun-loving masquerade, and now expresses primarily through his Capricorn Sun [in the 5th H] through which he feels more comfortable and at ease. How was I to know? He has no planets in the 7th but it is ruled by an afflicted Uranus in the 12th, whereas now he prefers seclusion and is less active socially. For the most part he has surrendered the masquerade that seemed so real in the early years. Since the horizon, between the ASC and 7H represents the 'line of consciousness' I think the ASC then is indeed more about the role we take on at the public level, yet when the day is done, we take off the mask, put on our slippers and become our Sun once again. I do think we need to move away from the concept that the 7th represents 'the marriage partner' , and give it more emphasis as per it's social implications overall; it represents our social adaptation...that's the way I see it, anyway.

I take your point, Kimbermoon, although I don't feel that the ascendant is necessarily a mask or masquerade. It can be for some people (notably with Neptune in the first house) but a transition from one's Leo nature to Capricorn nature seems like a natural transition, as Saturn rules old age and the ageing process. Leo also has an isolationist phase, where the lion may prefer to stay in his den rather than risk criticism or indifference from others.

BTW, any chance you could break up your posts into paragraphs? Maybe it's "just me" but I find so many thoughts in massive paragraphs to be difficult to follow.

dhundhun said:

Vedic Astrology considers ASC as most important point. ASC is the way everyone else would like to see in you. Sun is the way you want to see yourself and most important in Western Astrology.

For example a mom is putting a "yellow" cap on her son, it is because of her son's ASC (Jupiter in on ASC). The son might throw it and wear "red" cap lying near by (Sun in Aries).

In the same example mom might want to feed her son (Jupiter on ASC are fed more), where as the son might want to play around (Sun in Aries has more energy for physical activity).

I hope this hypothetical example serves your purpose how ASC and SUN affect individuals.

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Thanks for the graphic hypothetical dhundhun - that's very interesting and a great reminder that planets and signs are associated with colors as well in Tropical astrology

thanks Waybread; point taken; sorry for my 'essay style'...

what I am trying to say is that in our first encounter with the AC, around the age of 7 when we first enter school, we have to begin to redefine ourselves as being separate and apart from our parents. More often than not we need to make adaptations to the way we project ourselves, as in the social/educational realm people may not be so forgiving.

then in the next 7 years of our development, we subconsciously work at finding the best presentation of self in order to connect with others. As children we create a persona according to how we are received by others [7th H]. At the age of 14 we come to the Saturn Opposition, representing a transition point where we are trying to reconcile the person we are 'at home' and the one we are becoming in the outer world. Often the parents do not like the person we are becoming...thus the initial 'rebellion' phase as we try to establish ourselves.

Remember the person you were at the age of 14: you will find that you are quite a different person now, and that is because you have adapted yourself to the other world. Don't you ever feel that when you 'go out there' you are actually taking on a role, and acting a part...then when you come home you sigh and say ah, now I can stop pretending and just be me...that is what is meant by the masquerade.

Of course at our age, there is much we forget about the process of growing up because we have become more accustomed to that persona we show to the world, and also more comfortable in our own skin. Yet in youth, the challenge of finding our Identity is a long drawn out process; in that we are trying to determine our true Identity [Sun] which is often quite different from the Persona we have adopted.

I did note that the persona is malleable, and that it is dependent on our interactions with others, and how they respond to us. If we find that expressing ourselves in a certain way seems to be 'off-putting' to others, we soon learn to try to adapt unless we are a true rebel and don't care less about how others see us. This is the interplay [polarity] between the ASC and DC. The ASC is the 'cause' and the 7th represents the 'effect'. Of course this is all a subconscious playing out in many cases, and we don't really recognize it as an ongoing process.

Thanks, Kimbermoon!

I am not sure about the "rule of 7." I got sent to kindergarten at age 4, and my children were in part-time day care when they were babies.

The idea of the outer mask as separate from the inner person may be an artefact of our modern industrial/post-industrial society. I don't believe you would find this so much in a traditional society where everybody knows everybody in the village and is probably related to them. When I was working, I did have to present a particular image; even more so when I had positions of some responsibility for co-workers. Now that I'm retired, I don't feel this bifurcation much at all.

I totally agree that our self-image has a lot to do with how others perceive us. We may or may not have a clear sense of how or why other people respond to us, however.

Maybe the lucky ones have their sun and moon in the first house. I imagine it leads to a greater sense of personal integration.