Pluto on the Desc and Abusive Relationships

I've actually noticed before that Pluto on the descendant gives a strong potential for abusive relationships, but I was seeing it in spades last night-so much so that I was being bombarded with it. Last night I did mini-readings at a Halloween party. It just so happened that the vast majority of the women that came to me for a reading had Pluto right on the descendant. They all had abusive relationships with really controlling guys, underworld type criminal guys, or they would have a situation of having several marriages. Pluto with Mars in this position is especially dangerous for the woman.

Over the years, I have found Pluto in that position to be a sure-fire indicator of a woman who has suffered domestic violence of some sort.

I guess that Pluto in that position could also indicate a tendency for really deep, transformative relationships in a positive way--but I haven't seen that in practice yet.

I've seen Pluto express positively in other areas of charts-but for some reason-the 7th house and Pluto seem to spell trouble--especially for women.

I have Pluto in 7th well aspected and never experienced anything like you describe. I also have Uranus there badly challenged. Of course Pluto challenging mars in any chart can attract and give out physical violence. Plus it's not always 'the other' that want the control it can be the native to --- it can go both ways, either by projection or that person wanting control within relationships. All depends on how the pluto is aspected.

I personally am attracted to a strong authority type figure-- man's man, strong plutonian types, my second husband was a policeman. If I have found myself involved with a man who was not 'strong enough' I would take the lead and dominate and I don't want to have to do this. The challenge of the 7th is Libra/balance which requires give and take.

My Uranus would not stand for any kind of abuse or infidelity -- it just walks away and starts again, cutting the ties cleanly and quickly....

Olivia said:

I don't use the outer planets, but remember that 7 is opposite the Ascendant, and the house of open enemies, as well as of romantic partners. A malefic, especially an afflicted one, would be aimed right at the person (symbolised by the Ascendant) if it's in 7, especially on the cusp.

I think we can classify Pluto as a malefic - plus retrogradation is a serious debility and it's probably retrograde more than any other planet is, owing to distance and slowness.

I wouldn't be surprised if it manifested as domestic violence - Saturn and Mars in that position often do.

Click to expand...

Domestic violence or abuse would be pluto conj IC in 4th house badly aspected. So I take you are a Traditional astrologer rather than modern like myself.

There are all types of Astrologers use this forum but mainly fall into Traditional & Western Astrology, the differences are explained here. Traditional astrologers mainly answer Horary questions but lots others also and different rules apply than from natal. They don’t use or go past Saturn, so Uranus, Neptune and Pluto…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_astrology
http://www.astrolozy.com/article19.asp

Traditional astrologers mainly answer Horary questions but lots others also and different rules apply than from natal.

Hi-I have read in a few places that Pluto has been ascribed some association with violence or forcefulness but personally I think this interpretation leaves out the transformative role of Pluto.If a person had their sun trine pluto and pluto in h7, couldnt it be argued that the person may have a transforming impact on their other persons?
I was abused physically as a child-my pluto is in h9, with no negative aspects to it.
The abuser's chart has Pluto in the fifth (children), opposite venus.(venus in cap).
Another abused person whose chart I have, has Pluto in her second where it affected her feelings of self worth-square to venus (in sag)..

I'd say a great deal depends on the aspects made to Pluto, not just pluto's position in a house.
To me it is Mars who rules our *actions* guided by the moon which affects our *feelings*.
Another abused person whose chart I also have, has Pluto in h10 opp Venus in h4-no prizes for guessing the sources of that native's abuse! That particular person has a very weak retrograde mars in Libra in h12, so basically had to *cop it sweet*.No power to resist the abuse...

When I see mars and Saturn in bad aspect to one another in a natal, especially when Chiron is prominent in the chart, I *suspect* that abuse may have occurred in that native's life...but there needs to be quite a few other aspects that back it up.
Cheers
Lillyjgc

Hi Estrella,

My brother who is the topic in the "self injury" post in another part of this forum falls into this category of people that you mention. I am writing here to give another perspective... it is not only women who get abused, men do too, my brother being an example.

His Pluto is conjunct the descendant in Scorpio no less! He is young but has been dating the same girl for years who has been emotionally abusing him and who triggers his suicidal and self-injuring behaviors. No one else and nothing else tiggers these feelings.

Selene said:

His Pluto is conjunct the descendant in Scorpio no less! He is young but has been dating the same girl for years who has been emotionally abusing him and who triggers his suicidal and self-injuring behaviors. No one else and nothing else tiggers these feelings.

Click to expand...

I notice also that when Pluto features in the 7th, or especially when it is conj Descendant, that relationships feel fated and meant-to-be. There's a peculiar type of attraction with Pluto here that the person with that attraction seems unable - or even unwilling - to fight. Perhaps this is because at a core level, the person with this placement is unconsciously seeking the transformation which the relationships can bring.

I have Pluto conj Sun in the 7th, and all my relationships have been both fated/obsessive - and transformational, but only after the fact. At the time I was in them, the relationships were very painful - for me, at least. Transformation resulted once I was able to look back and figure out what the relationship(s) were all about. (All my r/ships were with men who presented different aspects of my father, and he was an emotionally abusive Scorpio, so my r/ships always presented aspects of his abuse.)

JUst curious, Olivia, but how do you give a reading without "using" the outer planets?
Human beings are made up of all the energy in our solar system...each planet rules a part of the body (for instance) so how do you decide what to ignore?
LIN

Estrella,
Although theoretically, each of the planets in our chart represents US, individually as well as others (3rd house, siblings, 9th house inlaws, for instance) the 7th house is tricky.
Our ascendant DRAWS to us that which is in the 7th house...but once we draw it to us, the actual person who we have attracted is independent of us, and we have no control over him/her. So it's really a matter of chance (or our individual transits or progressions) whether the person we have attracted will be supportive or undermining to our life. And with Pluto there's the whole spectrum from very good to very bad to draw from...LOL...

So of all the houses, the 7th is where we meet that which is somewhere INSIDE US...and we need to see it OUTSIDE US....and therefore we "personify" it. LIterally.

So...not surprised. I think in any situation where you read for several different people in a group, usually the people with the most dramatic issues will gravitate toward you....or you may be a Plutonian yourself and draw them to you...
If the women you saw in this group know each other, they may have originally been brought together subliminally by their commen problem!
LIN

Traditional astrologers mainly answer Horary questions but lots others also and different rules apply than from natal. They don’t use or go past Saturn, so Uranus, Neptune and Pluto…

Click to expand...

Olivia said:

Actually, traditional astrologers do natal, horary, electional, and mundane work - just like modern astrologers do - and since we live in the 21st century and deal with the same sorts of people that modern astrologers deal with, the difference isn't so wild. Traditional astrology does lean more towards the predictive model than the psychological - that may be the biggest difference. Yes Olivia I am very aware, but on this forum they do mainly answer horary questions and stay within their field of expertise.....

We don't generally use the outer planets except as 'malefic fixed objects' - sort of like fixed stars. But most of us (traditional or modern) agree that Pluto is basically malefic (though I realise you may call it by another term - challenging, perhaps?) and a badly aspected malefic/challenging planet on 7 can in some instances result in abuse by a spouse or partner.

It's still all astrology.

Click to expand...

Pluto is malefic only if it's challenged by conj, square and oppos, maybe quincunxs. the sextile and trines can be truly transformational and helpful

Lin,

JUst curious, Olivia, but how do you give a reading without "using" the outer planets?
Human beings are made up of all the energy in our solar system...each planet rules a part of the body (for instance) so how do you decide what to ignore?
LIN

Click to expand...

House systems Traditional v Modern
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8463

I think it's a little narrow sighted to state just the negatives of pluto in a house without considering the 'aspects' and whether its challenged or receiving help from other planets

Through a partnership, we fill out our essential being. Suddenly, we see ourselves in context. Through a partnership in which we work, play, love and/or create, we are fully formed and completed. The other half helps to make us whole. Ultimately, how we relate to others will help to define the success we have as a human being and as a member of humankind.
http://www.astrology.com/aboutastrology/interpreting/houses/house7.html

Pluto
Pluto 7th is an indication that the soul has been working, possibly over many lifetimes, to attain a balance between self and other: between being an individual whilst respecting the individuality of others. This balance will be achieved only when the soul has experienced the spectrum of relating possibilities, which has servility at one end and dominance at the other.
Whether Pluto in H7 manifests a partner with the power to transform a person’s perception of who he is or whether it takes away a controlling spouse, the experience will rank as the most significant of the lifetime.
http://www.dkfoundation.co.uk/dkfoundation/BookKarmaHouse7.htm

Saturn forms an inconjunct with mars and venus (ruler of 7th)in my chart. A relationship of 14 years recently ended and the abuse was "control through withdrawal or silence' We would see each other and then he would not answer phone calls for a month or two at times. I had to actually read up on it to understand why I felt so emotionally beaten. He would have excuses of being too busy. But time after time it became almost unbearable. He broke it off two or three times and once we got back together I was terrified that the silence was a portend of another ending.

Silence is emotional violence. It is a weapon. It is abuse. It devalues anothers humanity. It negates your being. It tears into your soul. This violence of silence is emotional hostage-taking designed to control, manipulate, punish and intimidate.

Click to expand...

(sorry..Ill find the source..I copied it in my cell as it fit so well)
And the sorrow is I still care about him. A part of me still does not understand what I did wrong, how can I fix it, it is all me and my fault and this incessant feeling that not hearing from him will in some way destroy me...because silence is killing another by pretending they do not exist.
The more I think about it the more frightened I am of trying to move on. What in me attracted someone that was so charming yet so painful to love. He has Pluto conjunct venus square saturn.
Sorry I do go on but I concur that saturn in difficult aspect to mars and maybe also to the ruler of the 7th is an indicator of potential abuse though physical violence was not there .
Too though I lived with someone for five years that towards the end it was increasing in rage and violence fueled by alcohol. I also have Neptune square venus and mars.
Is there a way out of this madness?. Will I ever have a loving and caring relationship and how does that happen?. I feel like the cards are stacked against me.

Here is the site which I quoted above ..http://borderlinepersonality.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/07/borderline-pe-2.html.
It was only after we 'broke up' that I had an awakening as to what has been happening all these years and why I was feeling the way I was. This was, I believe, Uranus through my 12th house retrograding to the moon ruler of 4th and 5th.

gemini59 said:

Saturn forms an inconjunct with mars and venus (ruler of 7th)in my chart. A relationship of 14 years recently ended and the abuse was "control through withdrawal or silence' We would see each other and then he would not answer phone calls for a month or two at times. I had to actually read up on it to understand why I felt so emotionally beaten. He would have excuses of being too busy. But time after time it became almost unbearable. He broke it off two or three times and once we got back together I was terrified that the silence was a portend of another ending. (sorry..Ill find the source..I copied it in my cell as it fit so well)
And the sorrow is I still care about him. A part of me still does not understand what I did wrong, how can I fix it, it is all me and my fault and this incessant feeling that not hearing from him will in some way destroy me...because silence is killing another by pretending they do not exist.
The more I think about it the more frightened I am of trying to move on. What in me attracted someone that was so charming yet so painful to love. He has Pluto conjunct venus square saturn.
Sorry I do go on but I concur that saturn in difficult aspect to mars and maybe also to the ruler of the 7th is an indicator of potential abuse though physical violence was not there .
Too though I lived with someone for five years that towards the end it was increasing in rage and violence fueled by alcohol. I also have Neptune square venus and mars.
Is there a way out of this madness?. Will I ever have a loving and caring relationship and how does that happen?. I feel like the cards are stacked against me.

Click to expand...

I have seen that this saturn quincunx mars is the main culpret here, saturn/mars is a frustration in action (mars) overcaution, but also that they can suffer in relationships and couldn't do anything about it and would prob never understand the 'why' Then to have your mars challenged by Neptune & finally neptune/venus is a double whammy (rose tinted glasses). I have the venus-saturn quincunx and I think all saturn-venus aspects can be bit cool, cautious (prob cos they felt unloved from childhood) and very 'giving' but the quincunx asks why when I do all this giving--- does it not come back to me. Plus in may case men/authority figures/father don't quite understand (on occasion) why gives me pleasure (venus) so they may 'humour me' cos they don't quite get it..

I am of the spiritual belief that people come in and out of our lives for a reason, either we have to teach them something or we have to learn something from them. There is Always an exchange for good or bad, there is always a 'Lesson, Test or Exam' with interactions -- cos that's how we all learn and grow and this is what our 'Soul' has come to learn about.

Olivia,

Traditional astrology is more than up to doing natal readings

Click to expand...

This is going way off topic again as your post was 3/4 about Traditional astrology and again I repeat here on AW (Traditional astrologers mainly answer Horary questions) and again repeat I am fully aware they do more than this but do not see many on other forums here

Olivia said:

Sorry, astrologer50, but you're the one who keeps putting that traditional astrologers answer only horary questions in big letters. Or is that a hint?

If only the modern perspective is allowed outside of horary, it should be somewhere in the rules or in the forum stickies - seriously.

Click to expand...

Why do you insist on miss quoting me?? I never said that or used that word--- mainly--- I'm only stating the obvious as to what is happening in the real world and on AW

Thanks Olivia..that actually helps.
To answer your question his saturn is in Scorpio at 29 degrees and pluto at 29 degrees/venus in Leo.
My chart is below. I have venus/mars/Uranus stellium in Leo, neptune in the 7th and saturn is in capricorn in the 10th. Mars and venus rule the 1st and 7th houses.
Your insight is helpful and probably right on.
Thanks again.

I am not sure what you are trying to say Haizea. It sounds like a simple solution. So he goes and I 'chill'? Maybe I should do somersaults and say "Oh Happy Day" That sounds like a nice idea.

I guess I should ask the horary question "when will he come back"? hmmm....do I even entertain the torture?

Oh gosh...I was trying to upload it in to my signature and realized it was going to be more difficult than I expected and then got side tracked.
My chart for real this time. Thank you.

gemini59 said:

...So he goes and I 'chill'? Maybe I should do somersaults and say "Oh Happy Day".

Click to expand...

We cannot control what happens to us, Cassandra......but (consciously or unconsciously) we determine how it affects us......When he goes, choose to be alone and happy rather than lonely and unhappy......[The yod in your 2010 SR indicates that valuable lessons learned through thinking clearly and caringly about all relationships may reveal how Neptune influences them.]

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=162865&postcount=33

(Aplogies to all for interrupting the thread discussion.)

...I was trying to upload my chart to my signature......

Click to expand...

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20273

I really do thank you Haizea. I was not being sarcastic but just being my occasional silly self. You put a sunny side to it. And I needed that but I am afraid he will not come back and it is over this time. It is such a long story and not to be told here.
We do not argue but I do become upset when he does not call me back but I say my piece and let it go. And yes, I am unsure of the relationship. And he is working...always too much. He is a workaholic. He truly is. And yes, he probably does need a break. He is killing himself...literally.

I can't understand how you can be now with these ill feelings and later be happy when he's back. Will it be easy to get rid of all these feelings? It can't be very easy, so better if you live this transit time as calmly as possible.

Click to expand...

Well first I am very much in love with him. When I see him I just feel happy to see his smile and be near him. And I have been trying very hard to rid myself of fears but no sooner am I almost rid of them and trust when he pulls the rug out from under my feet.
I am not sure which planet is causing this one as I have a lot going on.. He has progressed sun conjunct natal saturn for several years now. And with natal sun in Libra at 6 degrees he will have Pluto and saturn beleaguering him. There is always something going on it seems Whew...
But today I am calm. You have helped. I am okay. Less tears every day. A little stronger every day. This is how it should be. I don't know what the future holds but today is okay.

But Haizea and EJ, you are both right. I wish I had you there in the past. I should have handled things differently. I would have saved myself a lot of stress.You have both given me so much to think about and to ponder.
And sorry about disrupting the thread