Part of Fortune- different for daytime / nighttime charts?

Bina

Bina

Well-known member
It seems opinions differ on whether to use a different formula for the part of fortune in daytime / nighttime charts?

POF(day) = Asc + Moon -Sun

POF(night) = Asc + Sun-Moon

What do you do?

I was born at night and am never sure which POF to use.. It doesn't make sense to me to have to different formulas, depending on whether one is born at night or during the day. The Kepler program just uses the first formula, regardless of when a person was born. On astro.com both formulas are used as given above. Perhaps both can be used for everyone and just have different meanings?
What do you think?
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Bina said:
It seems opinions differ on whether to use a different formula for the part of fortune in daytime / nighttime charts?

POF(day) = Asc + Moon -Sun

POF(night) = Asc + Sun-Moon

What do you do?

I was born at night and am never sure which POF to use..
It doesn't make sense to me to have to different formulas, depending on whether one is born at night or during the day.

The Kepler program just uses the first formula, regardless of when a person was born.

On astro.com both formulas are used as given above.
Perhaps both can be used for everyone and just have different meanings?
What do you think?
Click to expand...
THE FOLLOWING IS SOURCED FROM SKYSCRIPT FREE ONLINE TUTORIAL GLOSSARY OF TERMS


Part of Fortune
- Also known as 'fortuna'. One of the so-called Arabic Parts and the most commonly used.
It is treated as a benefic
and generally considered as a significator of good fortune when well placed or favourably aspected.
Its symbol is:

fortuna.gif



The Part of Fortune is calculated by adding the Moon's zodiac degree to that of the ascendant and subtracting the degree of the Sun.
Absolute longitude is used, which translates 0 Aries to zero degrees and 29 Pisces as 359 degrees,
(18 degrees Taurus = 48 degrees: the 30 degrees of Aries + 18 of Taurus).

Therefore,

if

the ascendant is at 15 Cancer,
the Moon at 6 Aquarius,
and the Sun at 10 Aries:

then

Ascendant = 105
Moon = 306
Sun = 10

Ascendant + Moon - Sun = 105 + 306 - 10
= 411 - 10
= 401 (subtract 360 to return from absolute longitude to zodiac degree)
= 41
= 11 Taurus (the degree of the Part of Fortune).

(Tables that convert zodiac degrees to absolute longitude are available online in the study aids section.)

In nocturnal charts,
ie.,
where the Sun is below the horizon,
the formula for calculating the Part of Fortune is reversed to: Ascendant + Sun - Moon.


Since the Part of Fortune is a zodiacal point,
it can be said to be aspected by planets,
but it does not make aspects itself http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/fortuna.html


Our own EDUCATION BOARD provides an article by Ray Austin
THE FIVE LOTS OF FATE, SUCCESS, YOUR FORTUNE CHART http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13197

according to Ray Austin:

QUOTE

The Lot of Fortune
The key.
This is the native’s potential for prosperity,
the character of the native,
and another characterization of the native’s physical body.
It is the medium through which the other lots operate,
as it is the ‘physical body’, thus the vehicle through which the native executes their ambitions.
It can also be considered a gateway.


Strong – The native is blessed with the vitality to achieve fortune,
as well as auspicious character.
They also have potential for great prosperity.
If the other lots are fortunate,
then we have a good medium through which privileged promise can operate.
They may be ambitious.


Weak – The physical form may hinder attainment in some fashion,
and/or the character of the native is not conducive towards success.
They may not have a great promise of prosperity.
If other lots promise great things,
the native himself may be too weak to realize such gains.
They may not even care for great success :smile:
 
Cap

Cap

Well-known member
In horary and natal I use different POF formulas for day and night. It makes sense and it has been working well for me. Only exception are sport event charts, I've noticed that for some unknown reason the same day/night formula works better in those charts.
 
mdinaz

mdinaz

Well-known member
In Astrolog depending on the time of birth there is the Part of Fortune and the Part of Spirit. In programs that don't calculate for night births (Sun below the horizon) what they call the Part of Fortune is actually the Part of Spirit in Astrolog and thus in the wrong location. As I'm born at night my POF should be in Aries using the night formula but the programs with the incorrect formula place it in Cancer.
 
Bina

Bina

Well-known member
mdinaz said:
In Astrolog depending on the time of birth there is the Part of Fortune and the Part of Spirit. In programs that don't calculate for night births (Sun below the horizon) what they call the Part of Fortune is actually the Part of Spirit in Astrolog and thus in the wrong location. As I'm born at night my POF should be in Aries using the night formula but the programs with the incorrect formula place it in Cancer.
Click to expand...

Yes, you are correct, i remember now, i think Part of Spirit is like the Part of Fortune reversed for day/night births.

POF(day) = Asc + Moon -Sun = Part of Spirit (night)

POF(night) = Asc + Sun-Moon = Part of Spirit(day)

What is the meaning/significance of the Part of Spirit?
 
Last edited:
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
It is pretty standard to use different day and night forumulas-- and has been since the ancient Greeks began calculating "lots" (later known as Arabian parts.)
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Bina said:
Yes, you are correct, i remember now, i think Part of Spirit is like the Part of Fortune reversed for day/night births.

POF(day) = Asc + Moon -Sun = Part of Spirit (night)

POF(night) = Asc + Sun-Moon = Part of Spirit(day)

What is the meaning/significance of the Part of Spirit?
Click to expand...
The Lot of Spirit


QUOTE:

'....Spirit is the animating and directive force behind existence.
If the Lot of Fortune, by virtue of its correspondence with the ascendant, can be used to represent the body,
then the Lot of Spirit would represent the directive and animating force inhabiting that body. …

The Lot of Spirit and its ruler represents the passion… with which the native acts upon the world......'
Antoine Garth, “The Five Hidden Pillars of Fate”

So

this is the motivating force behind the key.
Picture it as the hand that turns the key;
the degree by which the native pursues success

Strong – The native will have great vitality of spirit, and passion with which to pursue goals. There is a great drive.

Weak – The native may not be very passionate towards the things they want, or passion is wavering.

source:
Ray Austin
THE FIVE LOTS OF FATE, SUCCESS, YOUR FORTUNE CHART http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=13197 :smile:
 
D

dr. farr

Well-known member
Except for Claudius Ptolemy (and later, Ibn Ezra) the Hellenists and Islamic transitional era authors (also Guido Bonatti and most of the later Renaissance authors) all used reverse formulae for the Part of Fortune (and the Part of Spirit) depending upon day or night; I have always followed this consideration in my own application of these Lots...
 
Phoenix Venus

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
Here is my opinion in a nutshell:

The meaning of the planets don't change during night time (truth is truth at 8 am and at 3 am)

So why would the meaning of the parts change? Moon still represents the yin energy and sun the yang. how much light is visible in the sky at the time is irrelevant (our senses are flawed anyway.... )

... and the charts I've looked at support that theory.

bina, it might help you to look up the sabian symbol for your pof and part of soul (which is the same formula as the nocturnal pof)

Which symbol best represents an action that would bring you spiritual wealth ? And which symbol best represents your innate nature?

Then you will be closer to your answer
 
Last edited:
mdinaz

mdinaz

Well-known member
The meaning changes because the hemispheres change. People with personal planets above the horizon are different than those with those same planets below the horizion - outward, action oriented vs. inner consciousness focused. Those same planets in the eastern hemisphere are more oriented towards spiritual growth of the self while those in the western half are more focused on serving others to attain growth. It makes sense to me than where your "fortune" is found is also going to reflect these realities.
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Since the days of Hellenistic astrologers, traditionalists have argued that the meaning of planets can change depending upon whether it is a day or a night birth. Day or night triplicities would be one example, as would be the P of F. The horoscope upper and lower hemispheres and to some extent house position would be other examples.

I am not sure what you mean by "truth" because so many truths accommodate different modalities.

In general astrological "truth" is hard to come by. "Yin" and "yang" are Asian concepts recently imported into western astrology. The Sabian symbols come from a psychic who intuited pictures for each zodiac degree in the early 20th century, after which people like Dane Rudhyar got to work to further intuit what these pictures meant. I don't use "yin" and "yang" or work much with Sabian symbols so they truly are not "truth" to me.
 
Phoenix Venus

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
Oh hai mdinaz :)

I didn't know i lived on the southern hemisphere during night time.

har har.

Since I'm in one of those moods......

seriously, what do you mean by "the hemispheres change"? the formula could wind up in either hemisphere regardless of time of day.

If you mean that the sun changes hemisphere, why does that actually effect the formula? A person born at sunset has sun in neither hemisphere.

The hemispheres are consistent in meaning. south is yin. The formulas are consistent too. astrology needs consistency. this is how you produce results.
 
Phoenix Venus

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
Ohh snap you all must have missed me :p slow days on the job huh

Hey bina, if you tell me the degrees of your formulas i will give you an interp of the sabian symbols to help you figure out for yourself what fits. that is often the only way.
 
Last edited:
mdinaz

mdinaz

Well-known member
Phoenix Venus said:
Oh hai mdinaz :)

I didn't know i lived on the southern hemisphere during night time.

har har.

Since I'm in one of those moods......

seriously, what do you mean by "the hemispheres change"? the formula could wind up in either hemisphere regardless of time of day.

If you mean that the sun changes hemisphere, why does that actually effect the formula? A person born at sunset has sun in neither hemisphere.

The hemispheres are consistent in meaning. south is yin. The formulas are consistent too. astrology needs consistency. this is how you produce results.
Click to expand...

It is consistent. If you are born with the sun above the horizon, you use one formula; if born with the sun below the horizon, use the other. Even if the Sun is one minute above the horizon, you use one formula, and not the other. I have yet to see a chart of a person born with the Sun EXACTLY on the ASC, to the minute. Even if someone does have the Sun that close to the ASC, they will likely exhibit characteristics of both, just as if the Sun were on the cusp of any other house. I don't see the controversy here.
 
Phoenix Venus

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
mdinaz said:
It is consistent. If you are born with the sun above the horizon, you use one formula; if born with the sun below the horizon, use the other. Even if the Sun is one minute above the horizon, you use one formula, and not the other. I have yet to see a chart of a person born with the Sun EXACTLY on the ASC, to the minute. Even if someone does have the Sun that close to the ASC, they will likely exhibit characteristics of both, just as if the Sun were on the cusp of any other house. I don't see the controversy here.
Click to expand...

"just because you haven't seen it...." doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate possibility. and therein lies the inconsistency. Its theoretically flawed

Why would the suns hemespherical position change the meaning of the formula?

Cause da nus gods said so duh.
 
Last edited:
mdinaz

mdinaz

Well-known member
Phoenix Venus said:
"just because you haven't seen it...." doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate possibility. and therein lies the inconsistency. Its theoretically flawed

Why would the suns hemespherical position change the meaning of the formula?

Cause da nus gods said so duh.
Click to expand...

I explained why the formula would change. It's a FORMULA, not an immutable law. And we are discussing an Arabic Lot which a large number of astrologers don't even use anyhow. Nobody is forcing you either, use what you want, your results and accuracy will reflect accordingly.
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Phoenix Venus said:
Oh hai mdinaz :)


The hemispheres are consistent in meaning. south is yin. The formulas are consistent too. astrology needs consistency. this is how you produce results.
Click to expand...

Are you aware that south is at the top of the chart (MC) and north is at the bottom? I think most people get east as the ascendant and west as the descendant. If we wish to paste yin and yang on western astrology we might consider that in eastern philosophy, yang is south and yin is north:

"Yin is characterized as slow, soft, yielding, diffuse, cold, wet, and passive; and is associated with water, earth, the moon, femininity, and nighttime.
Yang, by contrast, is fast, hard, solid, focused, hot, dry, and aggressive; and is associated with fire, sky, the sun, masculinity and daytime."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang

Phoenix, if you wish to use the same formula for night and day charts regardless, more power to you. I will continue to use formulas that tie the moment or the birth into the diurnal changes of the sky. Just as signs key us into changes of seasons.
 
D

dr. farr

Well-known member
As I mentioned in an earlier post, Ptolemy (and Ibn Ezra) recommended the day only formula for the POF-and, based on a poll I did over at skyscript a couple years ago (before I was banned), a substantial minority of Traditionalists (skyscript is primarily a Traditionalist site) continue to do so.
But, for me, since I have tested this particular matter by experimental charts, I am convinced that the day/night adjusted formula for the POF, yields the more frequently reliable indications, so I follow the majority opinion and use the day formula for the POF in a diurnal chart and the night formula for the POF in a nucturnal chart.
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Yikes, Doctor Farr. Excuse my intrusiveness but what did you do to get banned from Skyscript? It wasn't over the day vs. night formula, I take it.
 
D

dr. farr

Well-known member
The site owner (and one of its Moderators) didn't care much for my perspectives-when I deleted a number of my posts (in the Mundane Forum of that site), apparently they used these deletions as the excuse to ban me :devil:(although I was never contacted by them about this nor was any reason for banning me ever forthcoming)-glad it happened though, because it was then that I investigated other astro websites and found-AW:joyful:!
 
Top