What do you think of cazimi aspect?

A woman I know quite well as a Gemini Mercury Rx Cazimi. I judge her mental powers as average to slightly above average with a proclivity to be very vehemently opposed to any other views than her own. She seems either unable or unwilling to see the reasoning of an argument that doesn't originate from herself and thus coming to win-win conclusions with her was almost impossible if there wasn't agreement at the outset. I loved her though so I looked passed that at the time.

It's only one case that I could judge up close,and it wasn't impressive.

That's strange you would think Mercury backwards of movement going to the Sun would be going back to the Sun to enrich him/herself again by the Sun's presence, rather than that I guess the retrograde motion diminished Mercury so much she wished to be masochistic engulfed again..tsk tsk conspiracy theory..to bad?

Vyri

Vyri said:

That's strange you would think Mercury backwards of movement going to the Sun would be going back to the Sun to enrich him/herself again by the Sun's presence, rather than that I guess the retrograde motion diminished Mercury so much she wished to be masochistic engulfed again..tsk tsk conspiracy theory..to bad?

Vyri

Click to expand...

That's a convenient explanation. My brother has an Aries Mercury Rx combust conjunct Mars/Saturn and he has no problem looking at problems from alternative angles than his own as well as having a really good strategic mind. He's not one to impose his views on people either, which you'd think is strange given his Arian stellium.

conspiracy theorist said:

A woman I know quite well as a Gemini Mercury Rx Cazimi. I judge her mental powers as average to slightly above average with a proclivity to be very vehemently opposed to any other views than her own. She seems either unable or unwilling to see the reasoning of an argument that doesn't originate from herself and thus coming to win-win conclusions with her was almost impossible if there wasn't agreement at the outset. I loved her though so I looked passed that at the time.

It's only one case that I could judge up close,and it wasn't impressive.

Click to expand...

In natal charts, I don't think combustion is a problem. Rather, the combust planet shows what the person identifies (sun) with. In Gemini Lady's case, a threat to Mercury could have been perceived as a threat to the self (sun.)

However, for this to be a negative, I'd expect to see a hard aspect or two to sun-Mercury.

Of course, cazimi is a special case.

waybread said:

In natal charts, I don't think combustion is a problem. Rather, the combust planet shows what the person identifies (sun) with. In Gemini Lady's case, a threat to Mercury could have been perceived as a threat to the self (sun.)

However, for this to be a negative, I'd expect to see a hard aspect or two to sun-Mercury.

Of course, cazimi is a special case.

Click to expand...

This seems more like it. I could definitely see her bristling as related to her feeling rejected in some sense, especially because she'd come back to me and say in a defeated and cutesy voice that I don't listen to her.

Her Sun/Mercury actually is stressed from a square by Saturn and an opposition from Jupiter. With her Leo Moon in the mix, this can make her quite dogmatic.

I've also not seen where combustion is a diminishing or ineffective influence on the charts/people that I know. I know 3 people with Sun/Venus conjunctions and they all are people-persons who are socially adroit and fluid. One in particular actually has her Virgo in fall but this doesn't stop her from being a popular girl. (She's also pursuing culinary arts)

Cazimi hasn't passed muster for me as yet

Cazimi in a natal chart is rare. A non-exact conjunction is common; and with the sun we can use a wide orb. I understand the traditional astronomical interpretation, that you can't see a planet within the sun's visual orb. But looking at all kinds of natal charts, the conjunction seems more like what people identify with, the sun indicating one's sense of identity or self.

Traditionally Mars was the one planet not weakened by being combust, as the hot, dry nature of Mars supposedly could compatibly withstand the sun's rays.

I would think that a woman with sun conjunct Venus would identify with her femininity, and would enjoy being attractive to other people. With Mars widely conjunct my sun, this didn't happen in my case, alas.

Of course, the conjunction can feel negative with a hard aspect from another planet, or if the conjuncting planet(oid) happens to be Saturn or Chiron. Both of these can give difficulties with self-esteem.

The child of Elon Musk and Grimes has the Sun-Mercury cazimi aspect. He has Virgo Rising and Gemini Midheaven undoubtedly making Mercury his chart ruler. This conjunction is also widely conjunct Uranus.

I think it's safe to say that he'll grow up to be a genius or the ultimate businessman, since mercury is often associated with merchants and trade.

However, this cazimi is in Taurus, so I don't know how great it'll be. Taurus isn't exactly the "thinking" type.

This is a great thread. I've always thought of beams to combust to cazimi as being analogous to a projector or telescope or similar struggling to lock in focus on an object that then gets a razor sharp focus on the cazimi. But I've seen cazimi occur very rarely. Because I see this symbolically (without understanding much of Dr Farr's background but very keen to learn more) but driven by traditional astrology I think cazimi is strongest for inferior conjunctions but also applicable for all planets in symbolic form but I would also look at latitude rather than just longitude. A solar and lunar eclipse is technically also cazimi would that be right (?)

I also agree that I haven't seen many negative effects of beams or combustion but I do wonder if that is in part because in Western astrology we see the sun as largely beneficial and that colours our interpretation. So if Venus is conjunct the sun we tend to interpret this as the native identifying with Venusian themes but if you break that out there could be a number of issues to consider for both cazimi and regular conjunction / combustion:

1) Does ego and egotism and identity issues subsume the Venusian themes. So say someone is great at the arts, does it become about them as an artist rather than about the core Venusian need to "relate". And do we focus on the arts success and fame rather than the loss of relating because the society we live in values this type of success? Is this an issue more for conjunction / combustion rather than cazimi, (because cazimi fusion is so focused and rare that you end up with something unique)?

2) Where we talk about the sun as the core spirit / life purpose or mission or area of self realisation or actualisation, is there a genuine fusion of planets in conjunction whereby the planet conjunct the sun does lead the way in this respect and there is a clear sense of direction in the native's life (is this even different from 1 above - I feel like they're quite similar and in hindsight I think 1 is more nuanced?).

3) Do house rulerships and transits defer to the sun rather than the combust or cazimi planet (e.g. the houses with Taurus or Libra on the cusp where Venus is conjunct Sun). If yes I can see why that can be viewed as "weakening" the Venus.

4) Most stelliums end up including the sun by virtue of sun / mercury / venus being close. So does it follow that these stelliums include themes of being under the beams (which someone earlier had some great ideas on) such as fear or an inability to focus on specific planetary energies because of the domineering effects of the sun?

5) I actually was looking for a thread on this topic as a chart I have has the sun and its dispositor, Pluto, some 16.5 degrees apart and I wondered if they were conjunct or in beams given there are planets in between and a general Scorpio stellium. Where the sun is conjunct its own dispositor are there additional considerations... one school of thought could be that this creates much more free will and independence as the sun is stronger than the planet that rules it so the stellium energy becomes more Leonine. But I can just as easily understand the opposite view that this reenforces the ruling planets hold over the sun and the sign at hand becomes much stronger. Or a middling view is that the needs of the sign and planets end up being subject to a wider variety of outcomes because the sun and amplifies those planets but also integrates them into the personality and into the sun's own free will energy. Making the chart less easy to read.

6) Do any of the above change where the sun is in Aquarius or Libra or out of sect or otherwise debilitated (I don't follow traditional astrology robustly enough to know them all). i.e. Where the sun is in Leo and conjunct Venus, Venus is "combust" but where the sun was in Libra and conjunct Venus it wasn't "combust", Venus retained control over the Taurus house, the ego issues were much muted, etc. etc., solar energy was dimmed but much more easily focused on relating. Arguably a better artist but just not famous lol.

Will definitely be exploring across the charts I'm currently working on but would love to hear everyone's views.

If possible it would be great to move this thread to Natal Astrology but I've noticed charts that move lose their author and other info in the forum overview so might be less likely to be read.

A conjunction with the Sun can be like travelling through a hurricane. Things get stormier as you get closer, however when you reach the center or "eye of the hurricane", then things become calm. If a "combust" planet is within the powerful hurricane of the Sun's energies, then a "cazimi" planet is within the eye of the hurricane.

"Combust" usually means within 8 degrees of the Sun. "Cazimi" is much narrower, and usually means within 16 or 17 arcminutes of the Sun. The Sun is half a degree or 30 minutes across, so its radius is 15 minutes, which means a planet needs to get within about 16-17 minutes in order to actually start overlapping the Sun's disk.

The above suggests the best definition of cazimi is when a planet is eclipsing or eclipsed by the Sun's disk. Apparently that's why cazimi is defined to be 16 or 17 minutes, and not some other value. If so, then that means in order to truly be cazimi, a planet isn't just Conjunct the Sun with a tight orb. The tight Conjunction must also be in effect "vertically" as well as horizontally.

There's a Full Moon and New Moon every month, but not every month is a Lunar or Solar eclipse. The non-eclipse months are when the Moon's "vertical" latitude is too different from the Sun, so it passes over or under the Sun's disk or Earth's shadow. Eclipses can be considered proper "3D Conjunctions" that consider the planets' vertical coordinates too: http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog/ast3d.htm#aspect