The Manilius Decans

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

I strongly lean toward the idea that Hellenist astrology derived decans (later called "faces")
in some way, from Egyptian sources,
and I also lean to the idea that Hellenist astrology also likely derived the concept of the houses
from Egyptian sources (linked to the Egyptian concept of the Duat, or "underworld")

However, what about a possibly Jaimini (Indian) influence on Manilius relative to his decans
-can we try to say that India derived its decanate-concept from Egypt?

Well, one thing: it is a FACT that there were considerable contacts in the VERY ancient times
between Egypt+Sumeria (Mesopotamia)+the Indus River Valley civilization+the "Dravidian" culture of South India:
there was extensive trade among these very ancient civilization (predating the time of the Greeks),
so perhaps there was also an exchange of IDEAS as well...
Trade requires discussion
and
not unexpectedly
discussion leads to an exchange of IDEAS as well
:smile:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
The Manilius decans - based neither on element affinity nor planetary order - but rather on a spinning interior "little" zodiac within the larger (30 degree) signs-of-the-zodiac wheel, is the first recorded decan system (at least which we have any remaining record of), and is similar in many respects to the ancient Egyptian 36 "signs" subdivision of their zodiac. However, the Manilius system had largely (if not entirely) been forgotten even by 400 AD (Greek/Persian/Roman astrologers of that time using the face-planetary order decan system), and the Manilius decan system has not played any role in practical astrology for the past 1600+ years.

video on Manilius's rationale makes sense
- is excellent
- aligns other concepts that now make sense :)
for any interested






Apparently the use of the "original" decanate system (the Manilius decans) ended in the Greco/Roman tradition certainly by the early 2nd century, being totally replaced by the Chaldean Planetary Order decanate system (the Faces of the signs) There is some anecdotal historical information that the Manilius decan system developed in Alexandria during the time of that city's rise to world prominence, and that it was the original system, taken from the Egyptians (Alexandria is in northern Egypt) and forming the basis of the "sub-Zodiac Wheel" used in the earliest systemization of Greek astrology-however, there is no definite literature or archeological evidence supporting this anecdotal conjecture, so the only thing we know for certain is that the Manilius decanate system is the oldest of the known decan systems, its description and application being in the oldest extant Western astrological book, the "Astronomica" (14 AD) of Manilius...
.

when using the M decans I exclusively use the traditional "rulerships", same when I use the zodiacal sign monomoiria as well.

(Note: the Manilius decans date to the time of Manilius-actually probably much before his time, but we don't know that for certain; Manilius was active around 14 AD, so the Manilius decans are at least 2000 years old)

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Pinegree was not an astrologer, and his opinion merely echoes that of Gould relative to Manilius purpose in writing the Astronomica: a simple reading of the text clearly illustrates that this books purpose was to serve as an astrological instructional guide.


One might dismiss the Manilius Decans as being his own eccentric invention EXCEPT for the FACT that the SAME DECANS had been used in the most ancient school of jyotish, the Jaimini astrologers, long (at least a few hundred years) prior to Manilius's time; and that was in ancient INDIA, not at Rome (where Manilius wrote his book); Marcus Manilius might have been the grandson of another Manilius, who was brought to Rome from Antioch (as a slave), but who founded a school of astrology in Rome after his freedom; thus it is possible that our Manilius and the instructions in his book, express the outlook of an earlier astrological school from Antioch (and note that Valens was from Antioch too), which might have been itself influenced by some of the teachings of the Indian Jaimini astrological school; we do find several schools of thought and practice in Greco-Roman times, but after Ptolemy the "Alexandrian" school came to dominate, and we have little remaining literature from the other early Greco-Roman astrological schools, except the Astronomica of Manilius.


.
I strongly lean toward the idea that Hellenist astrology derived decans (later called "faces") in some way, from Egyptian sources, and I also lean to the idea that Hellenist astrology also likely derived the concept of the houses from Egyptian sources (linked to the Egyptian concept of the Duat, or "underworld")

However, what about a possibly Jaimini (Indian) influence on Manilius relative to his decans-can we try to say that India derived its decanate-concept from Egypt?
Well, one thing: it is a FACT that there were considerable contacts in the VERY ancient times between Egypt+Sumeria (Mesopotamia)+the Indus River Valley civilization+the "Dravidian" culture of South India: there was extensive trade among these very ancient civilization (predating the time of the Greeks), so perhaps there was also an exchange of IDEAS as well...
.
 

Humanitarian

Well-known member
The decans have to be in the same element.

i.e.

Pisces 0-10 Pisces or Neptune ruled
Pisces 11-20 Cancer or Moon ruled
Pisces 21-30 Scorpio or Pluto ruled
That's a different type of decan, because Manilius decans use this system:
Fire:
1st decan = Aries
2nd decan = Taurus
3rd decan = Gemini
Earth:
1st decan = Cancer
2nd decan = Leo
3rd decan = Virgo
Air:
1st decan = Libra
2nd decan = Scorpio
3rd decan = Sagittarius
Water
1st decan = Capricorn
2nd decan = Aquarius
3rd decan = Pisces
So: Fire = Spring signs, Earth = Summer signs, Air = Autumn/Fall signs, Water = Winter signs
 
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Lin

Well-known member
The second decanate of Virgo is ruled by the following earth sign...in this case...Capricorn...so Saturn ruled decanate.

If it was 10 degrees of Capricorn, the second decanate would be ruled by Venus, because the following earth sign is Taurus. etc.
LIN
 

Lin

Well-known member
In my opinion and in my experience, they do work. I have studied decanates for a very long time and when done correctly this data adds information to the total chart reading. They are especially useful when there are few major aspects in the chart to work with.
LIN
 

Humanitarian

Well-known member
In my opinion and in my experience, they do work. I have studied decanates for a very long time and when done correctly this data adds information to the total chart reading. They are especially useful when there are few major aspects in the chart to work with.
LIN
Yes, as decans works in all charts, and even adds to the natal chart another unique flavor, making the chart more unique and easier to distinguish.
 
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